What is /LGBT/'s thoughts on the book "Men trapped

File: fc828df69cbc5562745d3d49beb44d98_400x400.jpg (21KB, 400x400px) Image search: [Google]

21KB, 400x400px

bitch got dem crazy eyes

>>8726726
ftt agp?

>>8726726
how successful do you think he is with the ladies?

I think it's important to let each transwoman explain and feel in control of their gender experience in whatever way they're most comfortable with as long as they aren't forcing it on any other transwomen with a different preference.
But at the same time I feel like "transwomen are actually men with fetishes" with an optional "but you should maybe still treat them like women?" can enable cis discrimination against trans people.
Context is crucial. There are allies that can be trusted with nuance, but not just anybody is like that.

>>8726699
I've only read a small bit of it so I can't comment.
Autogynephilia, as in sexual arousal at certain thoughts, exists and is common in pre-transition transsexuals, especially gynephiles. Autogynephilia, as in an orientation or something that makes you trans, is bunk. The abnormal natal development theory is far more robust and has empiric (though inconclusive) evidence.

I think Lawrence is wrong but not malicious, unlike Ray Blanchard who holds trans people in contempt.

>>8726728
>>8726732
Don't hold people's gender identities hostage. Even if you dislike someone you shouldn't misgender them.

>>8726732
meta attraction agp best agp

>>8726751
>I think Lawrence is wrong but not malicious
meh, i don't know. lawrence lost their job as an anaesthetist for being caught perving on a woman under the gas. they have a lot invested in the "admit it, we're all perverts" notion.

>>8726862
>their
>they

>>8726872
i mean they call themselves a man literally (like that book there), but everyone calls them she.

i don't know what their line is wrt pronouns, but it's more than i'd care to even be familiar with any random creep so i just use they

>>8726890
She calls herself a trans woman, she has a female name, she presents as a woman, her friends call her female pronouns, her books says AGPs are women.

?

>>8726699
Here's a link to it.
https://surveyanon.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/men-trapped-in-mens-bodies_book.pdf

>>8726898
any excuse to misgender an enemy

>>8726751
I honestly can't tell. What is that?

>>8726751
>unlike Ray Blanchard who holds trans people in contempt.
Funny how he and Lawrence are friends.

>>8726862
sauce

>>8726942
Sauce is one of the team or harassers who attacked Blanchard, Bailey and Lawrence out of their own personal denial of AGP.

>>8726922
If I understand your question right.. the theory that transsexuality is a sort of neurointersexuality, and unlike what BAT supporters will tell you it has plenty of support from prominent researchers, including the likes of Milton Diamond, who among other things was the president of ANSR (which Blanchard is a member of). Zucker edits IASR's Archives of Sexual Behavior.

See:
>>8722438

>>8726928
That's not unexpected. People often befriend people who are not exactly like them. Sometimes they're not even aware of the difference.

>>8726962
Like Survey Anon being best friend of the biggest transphobe on the board.

>>8726916
Thanks survey anon!

>>8726952
I always thought that painting Lynn Conway with the same brush as the others is unjust.

>>8726971
Do you have a reason for that thought?

>>8726952
i don't like the messes james makes eitherl but at the same time, with tranny pervs everywhere, if there is independent confirmation--i go with that. doesn't align me with anyone, or kiwifarms, or tw-erfs or whatever. tw-erfs may happen to be right about a lot, i don't really take any pleasure from that--it threatens everyone.

http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/lawrence/anne-lawrence-case.html

>>8726962
>ANSR
Please kill me. I got it right the second time with IASR. I don't even know how I got the AN.

>>8726962
I have no idea what any of these acronyms mean or if you are talking about a born female or male. You trannies are confusing af.

>>8727743
BAT stands for Blanchard's Autogynephilia Theory, another name for Blanchard's Typology. IASR stands for International Academy of Sex Research.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanchard%27s_transsexualism_typology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Academy_of_Sex_Research

>You trannies are confusing af
The subject is honestly really esoteric. Not to imply I'm an expert - I have a very superficial understanding of things - but it took me a long time and a lot of reading to get what the argument is even really about.

So if youre Autogynephillic does that meab youre just a freak of nature? Like I dont know why I feel like this and I have since I was really young.. I always thought it was just because Im secretly gay or something. Am I not valid as a transsexual? Am I some kind of pervert with a fetish? I just want to be happy :(

>>8728220
AGP is transsexuality. You're not a freak and you're not invalid.

>>8728220
This is possibly the worst thread to discuss this in since the book posted in the OP is about how AGP is a mental illness but I'll give it a go.

The actual mainstream view is that autogynephilia is a paraphilia (a fancy term that essentially translates to fetish in everyday parlance, since the word fetish has a more specific medical meaning) and that having it does not by itself mean you're trans or not trans. There are cis people who get turned on by, for example, crossdressing and roleplaying as women. There are also trans people who, almost always pre-transition, get turned on by similar things.

For whatever reason autogynephilia is very common among pre-transition transsexuals, with around 70-80% of gynephiles and around 20-30% of androphiles exhibiting it. There are many theories that try to explain why this is the case. The one mentioned in the OP essentially claims that AGP turns people trans over time (and rejects the numbers above, claiming that the division is actually 100% and 0%, respectively, despite evidence to the contrary). It has largely been abandoned by the medical community because there's no proof for it. There's another theory that claims that autogynephilia is developed as a repression mechanism (I want to be a woman->I'm not supposed to want that->I'll repress it->I'll subconsciously express it in the form of a fetish because the desire has to go somewhere and this is the least psychologically costly solution). There's no proof that it is right either. Objectively speaking, we just don't know.

Nowadays transsexuality is thought to be caused by exposure to abnormal levels of sex hormones during natal development. This is the prevailing theory among the professional class. I touched on it here:
>>8722438

Since both androphiles and gynephiles show most of the same orientation-unrelated brain differences it follows that the cause of their condition is probably the same.

>>8728307
>the book posted in the OP is about how AGP is a mental illness
[citation needed]

>>8728220
>>8728307
AGP itself usually fades away after you medically and socially transition for long enough.

tl;dr if you want to be a woman, and experience gender dysphoria (including any of the less obvious forms of it like being depressed over your unfulfilled yearning) you're trans and AGP is irrelevant to that.

>>8728313
>Does the desire for sex reassignment in autogynephilic MtF transsexuals represent a mental disorder? I contend that it does.

- Anne A. Lawrence

http://www.annelawrence.com/desire_for_sr_a_mental_disorder.html

>>8728313
Okay.

http://www.annelawrence.com/desire_for_sr_a_mental_disorder.html
>Does the desire for sex reassignment in autogynephilic MtF transsexuals represent a mental disorder? I contend that it does.

>>8728339
That's talking about the desire for SRS, not AGP itself.
That's not from the book.
That's not not what the book is about.

>>8728351
>Do some men who desire hormonal and surgical sex reassignment have a mental disorder?

>hormonal

>>8726699
nothing we already didn't know desu, very repetitive, but good as an infosheet for normies

>>8728351
>the same author will not try to force her opinion in her book devoted to the topic

This weaseling and reframing the topic is hilarious as always blanchardist

>>8728351
>That's talking about the desire for SRS, not AGP itself.
You have to be kidding. Read her article. Her whole point is that AGP is a mental illness. ETLEs as a model, which are crucial to her understanding of AGP, are specifically ERRORS. Blanchard specifically calls this a mental illness and her work is based on his.

>That's not from the book.
It's the same writer describing AGP in terms of Blanchard's theory, which calls AGP a mental illness.

>That's not not what the book is about.
It's about the Blanchardian conception of AGP, in which it is a mental illness.

>>8728367
You've literally just failed to cite your claim and resorted to >implying I'm wrong

"weaseling and reframing"?

>>8728339
>>8728349
Lawrencemind

>>8728313
the book itself is the citation

>>8728380
Nice dodge of all points as per usual blanchardist.

>>8728380
>You've literally just failed to cite your claim
Fucking lol

>>8728380
>Do some men who desire hormonal and surgical sex reassignment have a mental disorder?

>hormonal

Just admit you consider AGPs mentally ill too. It's okay, you're among TERF allies here.

File: ayyy.jpg (54KB, 706x282px) Image search: [Google]

54KB, 706x282px

Good ol' Blanchard with the truth bombs
at least we can have good or superior mental functioning outside of our gender preoccupations

>>8728388
Except what you lied about the book being about isn't even in it.

>>8728406
LOL, Blanchard daddy at its finest tbqh.

Although I am not sure if he's not being sarcastic there.

>>8728420
Blanchard's theory isn't in it?

Just to fully BTFO Blanchard poster

>In my opinion, interference
with interpersonal intimacy during sex constitutes one of the strongest bases for considering clinically significant autogynephilia to be a genuine mental disorder.

- Men Trapped in Men's Bodies, pg 61

>>8728473
> I would argue that, from a psychotherapeutic perspective, validation of a client’s
experience of psychopathology (and addressing associated issues of shame and
stigma) is ultimately a more powerful and effective intervention than attempting to
“depathologize” a condition that is genuinely pathological.

pg 62

>>8728473
>>8728482
Allah bless you my sister/brother/snowflake in arms

Note Blanchardist evacuates thread when faced with incontestable evidence because the narcissist cannot admit he was wrong.

File: killmenow.jpg (16KB, 200x250px) Image search: [Google]

16KB, 200x250px

>>8726699
>tfw anne lawrence will never tuck you in bed at night and read MtiMB to you to sooth your a*p thoughts to sleep

>>8726699
So I'm a gay cis dude here, but... doesn't AGP make sense even if you're "trutrans?"

I mean, I'm a man, and I get off on the idea of me being a man and fucking other men. If a man identifies as a woman, it only makes sense that (s)he would "get off" on imagining himself being a woman fucking someone.

So how is AGP a thing and how does it make someone different from trans? Is the lack of dysphoria the only difference? And even so, if someone goes to the lengths of presenting as the opposite sex despite the stigma that comes with it, wouldn't you say that there HAS to be some sense of dysphoria present anyway? They're obviously not satisfied presenting as the gender they were born as - I would think that would qualify.

>>8726699
Bought it, reddit, need to read through it again sometime. I found it just told me everything I already knew though and offered no concrete solutions besides transition.

>>8728961
>doesn't AGP make sense even if you're "trutrans?"
HSTS isn't trutrans. AGP is truer trans than HSTS.

>>8728961
First thing first, read:
>>8728307

You're partially right in the sense that some AGP fantasies overlap with the fantasies of normative women for the reasons you named BUT there are a lot of AGP fantasies that normative women generally do not have. Generally these fantasies concern being intensely stereotypically feminine in some fashion. For example someone might get aroused by the idea of being a waitress who has to wear a frilly hyper-femme uniform, or a housewife who has to clean her home for her husband, or even menstruating.

>>8728328
This. I (androphilic) was pretty AGP, but after a month on hormones all that went away and I just feel like a normal girl now, the only explanation for it I can see is that AGP is just a method of coping for pre-transition people.

I've never done any of that "fapping to my boobs in the mirror" or other such stuff I see supposed AGPs on hormones talk about here. I just look in the mirror, see my boobs, and think "hey, I have boobs now, that's cool". I assume most of those sorts of posts about AGPs on hormones fapping to their own feminizing bodies are just non or pre-transition AGPs roleplaying as someone on hormones.

>>8733415
>the only explanation for it I can see is that AGP is just a method of coping for pre-transition people.
>I assume most of those sorts of posts about AGPs on hormones fapping to their own feminizing bodies are just non or pre-transition AGPs roleplaying as someone on hormones.
Yeah everything makes so much sense when everything that doesn't fit is just somebody roleplaying.

Btw your post is just roleplaying.

>>8733415
A month of HRT and it goes away for you? Lucky bitch!

>>8726751
>Even if you dislike someone you shouldn't misgender them.
t. Tranny tumblr sfw feminista

>>8733415
A month is really quick! It took 2 or so years for most of the people I've spoken with.

>>8733435
>>8735023
It may have been a bit quick for me because my sex drive completely crashed almost immediately, but even after it came back I still don't have any AGP feelings.

>>8733435
It's probably not actually gone. Her androphilia is probably meta-attraction, so...

>>8728961
The dichotomy isn't AGP/trutrans, it's AGP/HSTS.

It makes sense that someone who identifies as a woman, in the sense that they think of themselves as a woman, would imagine herself as a woman in sexual fantasies too. However, AGPs almost always imagine themselves as women in sexual fantasies before they think of themselves as women.

HSTSs don't do this. To make sense of this, remember HSTSs are on the same spectrum as cis gays. That is, an HSTS who doesn't think of themself as a woman (and hasn't transitioned yet, etc.) is literally the same as a very effeminate/feminine gay man.

>>8735530
>HSTSs don't do this
Come on now. Only if you severely massage the data. Every single study ever done on this said some portion of "HSTSs" experience autogynephilic arousal. Dismissing them as pseudoandrophilic is just intellectual sleight of hand.

I'd argue with the rest too but I already wrote why I think what I think upthread.

>>8726699

An AGP writes a book on AGPs to get some validation and make colleagues think she's not AGP.

The book is also full of psudoscience and anecdotal self-reports, which are known to be the worst material on which basing psychological research.

Case dismissed.

>>8735530
>It's probably not actually gone. Her androphilia is probably meta-attraction, so...

Define meta-attraction. Because I'm pretty firmly attracted to guys both physically and mentally. It's not some "I want to be railed by a dick so I can feel like a real girl, not because I actually like men" stuff which is what I've seen "meta attraction" as. But if I'm wrong please correct me with a proper definition.

>>8736222
I'm one of the foremost critics of her work but she freely admits to being AGP.

>>8728467
Blanchard's typology is all just part of his negging strategy

soon hes gunna start larping as ancient ruler online and preying on insecure trannies for sex

>>8736222
I'm confused by the way you attack her for saying AGP is real with the accusation of being AGP?

>>8728406

Except it's not really a disorder. It's a fantasy.

The amount of pseudo-scientific psycho babble in this thread is the equivalent of debating Lord of the Rings as though it were a record of historical events that actually happened.

A man saying 'I am a woman' is objectively biologically false.

A man saying 'I feel like a woman' is objectively impossible because a biological man cannot know what being a woman 'feels' like.

A man saying 'I wish I were a woman' or 'I want to be a woman' is a fantasy.

Fantasies are not delusions or disorders.

>>8738348
Being trans is not "just having a fantasy". It involves gender dysphoria, which is a disorder. Where I disagree with him is his claim that transsexuality itself is a disorder since a transsexual with the proper body can be perfectly content with themselves and has no rational reason to want to be "healed".

>A man saying 'I am a woman' is objectively biologically false.
There's a strong argument for transsexuality being a sort of intersexuality..

>>8738348
>A man saying 'I feel like a woman' is objectively impossible because a biological man cannot know what being a woman 'feels' like.

How can anyone known what "feeling like a woman" is, in that case? Even cis woman fail at it since they can't infer the internal feelings and sense of self of other women.

>>8741188
>'I feel like a woman'

thats pretty much a manifestation of dysphoria and trans-feels, you could word as "I feel like I should be a woman"

>>8741637
Different anon but my first trans google search was "I wish I were a girl", when I was 12. I had no idea there was even a name for it

this charts new and unexplored territories of tedium

>>8738348
>>8741637
That guy is just a gay fag that wants to put trans on the boat as gay people.

We are different than gay. A trans could be gay, but that's something else.