In my opinion, all mtfs are agp, even hstses, otherwise they'd

The Blanchardiest Blanchardian

>>8695656
This

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>>8695640
I've thought about this. I wonder how many gay guys get off on being perceived as a woman but won't admit it.

>>8695846
Also, is there any man who is a bigger hero to the gay community?

>>8695640
Captain Blanchard, here's our hero. Gonna take (gender) pollution down to zero.

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>>8695640
>>8696907

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>>8696992
>trannies are this insane

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Actually. You mention a really valid point. I've heard a lot of people say "You just transitioned because you're ashamed of being a gay man". But, unless you pass with fucking flying colours (very little people do), and TERFs do tend to actively deny any trans girls ever pass well, surely it's worse to be trans than gay?

>>8697757
Trannies are all convinced that THEY will pass even if MOST will not.

>>8697793
But why? Surely if they're just gay men, why would they think they'd pass? And wouldn't they be more ashamed of being a man in a dress than just a gay man?

>>8697796
Because they have pathological narcissism that affords them no psychological room for shame.

>>8697800
>that affords them no psychological room for shame.
So how could they feel shame for being gay men?

>>8697803
Caught him in a catch-22 of his own bullshit

watch him rant about neuroleptics now

>>8697803
It isn't shame at being a gay man it is a refusal to accept that they don't fit into the heterosexual paradigm.

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>>8697807
Why do they refuse it if they're not ashamed of it anon? Are you saying, they want to fit into either "man who likes women" or "woman who likes men", and because they cannot fit into the first, they delude themselves into thinking they can fit into the second?

>>8697806
idk I'm only curious, am bi tranner and probably agp.

>>8697814
They feel they are above gay men. That they are indeed full women if they are taking on the role of the woman in the relationship.

They want to fit into an existing heteronormative context and so insert themselves, however crudely.

>>8697819
That still doesn't really answer it though anon, though that's starting to make some sense

Surely if you feel you are above something, you wouldn't want to be said thing, and you'd be ashamed of it. What you're saying would be:

>gay male is the "woman of the relationship"
>gay male is ashamed of homosexuality and believes themselves to be above other homosexuals due to their status in relationships
>causing them to delude themselves into thinking they'd make good women
>causing them to transition blindly, thinking it's better to be trans than gay

Is that right? What I still don't understand is where that attitude/narcissism differs. I can't think of any reason that they'd feel any superior to gay men or hate masc x masc gay men, and wish to escape the label of a gay man. If they're so narcissistic as to say "I am a woman, I'm not a male, x is a social construct, you're transphobic" or what have you, surely they're narcissistic enough to just say "I'm a gay male, there's nothing wrong with that fuck you". Since there are plenty of heavily narcissistic, aggressive gay men as well. Where does the self hatred at being gay start, but end at being trans? Why do they want to be above gay men or fit into a heteronormative context?

>>8697831
Well I'm not entirely sure what goes through a trans brain as I am not one, I am merely postulating.

They feel superior to gay men because they can date "straight" men who are attracted to them as women. Having men be attracted to them *as* women is hugely important to the whole gambit.

Somehow transcending being stuck only dating other gay males and being able to access the wider community of straight males who are only sexually interested in women is a huge accomplishment to trans.

>>8697836
Ah, you just seemed pretty sure of yourself with those earlier statements.

So, what you're saying now there is the narcissism itself actually isn't at all being superior to gay men, but instead self absorption at the lack of possible dating pools available to them:

>narcissistic gay male is upset they can only date other gay men, particularly relevant to them being the "woman of the relationship" and feel straight men should date them
>delude themselves into thinking they'd make good women, and don't realise own possible lack of passibility
>transition to female, and display the same pattern behaviour often seen by trans women accusing straight men of being transphobic for having "genital preferences"

This one makes more sense since the narcissism doesn't contradict hatred of homosexuality. Instead of forcing themselves into a heteronormative context relationship wise, they instead transition purely as an attempt to make their dating pool larger. They don't hate being gay, they're narcissistic and hate that other people (straight men particularly) aren't attracted to them and think they "should" be. That explains the aggression many trans activists display towards cis/straight people also. This definitely could be a potential motive for transitoners, I don't think it's widely applicable/representative of all HSTS though since it's of course lacking real evidence, and there are also HSTSs that transition during relationships or aren't worried about genital preferences (Blaire White I believe is a popular HSTS that argues it's fine for straight men to choose not to date transgender women).

>>8697859

The major take home points are that trans individuals rarely view themselves as gay and typically view their partners as straight. I am sure if you ask Blaire if his boyfriend is straight, he would answer yes. It is a subversion that homosexuality even exists, so long as one male partners assumes a visibly female role. In Iran and other Muslim countries, such behavior is required to enter into a marriage, whereas in the United States and other developed nations, no such requirement exists anymore.

>>8697793
>Trannies are all convinced that THEY will pass even if MOST will not.
Are you literally retarded? This is the opposite of reality. Only insane hons and trenders think that.

You literally have entire generals here based around trans girls calling each other hons and wanting to die because they'll "never pass". If anyone is going to LACK self-confidence, it's a trans person. Hence why so many end up sucking dick of abusive bfs just to get a little validation.

TERFs need to be put into mass graves desu.

>>8697917
To the contrary, I have never seen someone so cocky that they pass when clearly they do not than a transperson.

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>>8697917
Also,

Gay guy ≠ TERF

https://terfisaslur.com

Does that mean all ftms are aap? Autoandrophilia?

You're all crazy desu, but there's food for thought.

>>8697923
>VanguardVivian
Does that Nanny Tranny have 98.5℅ of Twitter blocked???

What a fucking ass

>>8697928
Who is to say that all trans do not get off to the idea of themselves being able to date straight people of the same gender as well as the idea of themselves being the other gender to fulfill this fantasy?

>>8697933
Trans people who date other trans people, date non-straight people, transition during relationships with people who don't care what they are, or are ace.

>>8695640
In my opinion, your opinion doesn't fucking matter

>>8697943
In my opinion, your opinion doesn't fucking matter

>>8697942
Most trans prefer to date "straight" people though.

Ace is (also) literally gay people in denial (albeit via a separate faux explanatory mechanism than trans).

>>8697946
>Most trans prefer to date "straight" people though.

i really wonder where this idea comes from

trans women are about equally into women as they are into men overall

it's almost like this might be another shitty meme

>>8697946
How do you know either of these things? I'm a trans girl who doesn't "date" and I'm currently in love with a cis girl who has dated both men, women and trans people before. Are you saying I'm an extreme minority, and do you have proof of that?

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blanchard is such a shit meme, idk how people fall for this stuff

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>>8697959
I am saying you are a minority, yes.

>>8697966
This chart doesn't say that

>>8697969
It was VERY hard to find data on sexual orientation of transgender people. Do you have any?

I am not sure whether this chart assumes heterosexual with regards to birth or preferred sex but either way includes almost 3/4 non heterosexual identities.

>>8697978
first of all, I'm pretty sure that this chart is for trans guys? Can you confirm it's for trans women?

>>8697978
No I don't, I'm not making any direct claims but you stated that trans people prefer to date straight people. Considering it says "same-gender" under gay/lesbian, heterosexual would mean opposite gender, i.e trans women dating men. So preference for men is only 23%. Besides, even if that's not the case and the majority of trans women here identify as prefering to date men, how do you know that's only dating "straight men"? What if they like dating bi trans men?

Also surely the study/article accompanying this chart would make that clear, link it. The chart doesn't even say it's about trans people in the title.

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>>8697981
Here is some perhaps slightly better data demarcated by birth sex. That said it is annoying they do not simply ask whether people prefer to have sex with men or women.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00224499.2011.596954

Plug into scihub:

http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/00224499.2011.596954

>>8697985
Well lets use this data instead. I am looking it up now. The pie chart was DEFINITELY from a study of trans people though.

>>8697989
ok great
that chart proves that trans women have extremely diverse sexualities of all kinds
kinda proves it that we don't transition for any sort of sexual reason

>>8697993
It shows that a majority of mtt are gay males with regard to biological sex.

>>8697994
but not gay males that prefer to date straight men like you claimed. Also that link says

>Genderqueer was the most commonly endorsed gender identity

That means birth sex males too right? So this isn't even purely about mtt?

>>8697994
>It shows that a majority of mtt are gay males with regard to biological sex.

?

it does not

the study actually has more lesbians than straight trans women and none of the other sexual orientations show anything either way?

I'm questioning your ability to read

>>8698001
Birth males who say they are heterosexual in this context would be gay males biologically speaking.

That is why it is so important to operationalize your variables in a clear manner. When dealing with trans, it makes much more sense to ask people simply if they are attracted more to men or women, but I cannot find a study that does that.

For natal males heterosexual is the most preferred category followed by bisexual indicating that most would be considered homosexual with regards to birth gender. "Queer" really throws things off because to me it means you are gay with regards to your biological sex, but technically, it has no specific actual meaning in terms of gender preference for sex.

>>8698005
>>8697999
Still, none of that evidences they prefer to date straight men, and not bi/pans/agp/psbi/etc men. Also the natal males in this study can identify as genderqueer, so not MtF. None of that evidences that trans people transition just so they can date straight men.

>>8698009
These terms are all meaningless social conventions. Either they are male or female biologically and prefer to have sex with males or females.

Again, not defending how they chose to operationalize their variables. If you can find better data, please link me.

>>8698005
it should just be universally the way the person identifies desu.

it's generally a study that's kind of thrown off by the fact that you have mostly nonbinary people.

for trans women there's a pretty even split between bi, lesbian and straight

>>8698015
saying trans people are male or female biologically is also kind of meaningless and also wrong from a scientific point of view, which is why the scientists do not have their variables this way

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>>8698017
>for trans women there's a pretty even split between bi, lesbian and straight

Do you have a study that asserts this?

>>8698017
Biological identity is extremely meaningful, even for transgender individuals.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01542107

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>>8698027
Since this study is from the 80s and refreshingly free of modern political correctness we can assume safely that when Blanchard categorizes someone as homosexual he means in regards to birth sex. Thus most in this study (MTT) are homosexual with regards to birth sex, that is they are biologically men who are attracted to other biological men.

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>>8698029

>>8698015
They're not though.

>trans woman (natal male) dates another natal male, who prefers to have sex with natal males
>trans woman (natal male) dates a trans man (natal female) who prefers to date female-appearing people and has no preference on natal sex
Both are included in this study as "heterosexual", and yet they didn't transition just to "date straight people".


>Again, not defending how they chose to operationalize their variables. If you can find better data, please link me.

This actually straight up skews your data though, because you're claiming a conclusion for trans women when your study allows non MtF participants.

>>8698035
Ok so do you have better data?

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>>8698035
>female appearing people

>>8698036
Nope

>>8698027
>>8698029
nah, anything blanchard writes is kinda bunk, he interviewd trans women that were going through gatekeeping at the time so obviously they were going to say they were straight lmao

>Biological identity is extremely meaningful, even for transgender individuals.

natal sex != biological identity

>Do you have a study that asserts this?
yeah, the study you posted>>8697966
but for trans women, the one you posted was for trans men.

>>8698046
>was for trans men

no it was not.

>>8698049
are you 100000% sure? I distinctly remember trans guys identified as queer way more often than trans women

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>>8698052
Yes. I did a search for MTF sexual orientation on google scholar to find the data.

Here is something. Most MTF identify as heterosexual, meaning homosexual with regards to natal sex.

http://www.tsroadmap.com/sexuality/annie-sexuality.html

>>8698038
yes
just like many straight men would never date a trans man, because despite the vagina and their heterosexuality, they are male in appearance and have a preference for female appearing people.

>>8698054
yeah i found that, I generally am super warry of trusting any studies done before the past few years, gatekeeping forcing trans people to be heterosexual to be given hormones severely skews that statistic

do you have the version of >>8697966
for trans men? You seem to be really sure but I'm kinda not. Can you link the original website maybe.

>>8698054
Blanchard (1989b) distinguished between core autogynephilia, the "simple, unelaborated, and contextless fantasy of being a woman" (p. 619), and autogynephilic interpersonal fantasy, "the sexual fantasy of being admired, in the female persona, by another person" (p. 619). He found that, among gender dysphoric males who had not undergone SRS, bisexual persons reported the highest levels of autogynephilic interpersonal fantasy (Blanchard, 1989b), and that among nonhomosexual transsexuals, sexual attraction to men (i.e., bisexuality) was associated with autogynephilic interpersonal fantasy but not with core autogynephilia (Blanchard, 1992). These observations suggest that autogynephilia--or a component of it, autogynephilic interpersonal fantasy--might be associated with the expression of interpersonal sexuality among MtF transsexuals generally and among bisexual MtF transsexuals in particular. However, the relationship between autogynephilia and interpersonal sexuality has not been studied in MtF transsexuals who have undergone SRS.

>>8698060
I could not find the original link. I am still looking.

Either way the data is crap because it allowed the ambiguous term "queer".

I don't think you can throw out any study because of "gatekeeping". These are biological males reporting, mostly, preferential attraction to other biological males. You can't somehow claim they were all forced into it and really wanted to be with biological women.

>>8698066
no I'm not saying they were all forced into it lmao, I'm saying the sample isn't a good one because it's inherently skewed towards one result

>>8698070
I just presented multiple studies that all show that natal males are primarily attracted to other natal males. Are you saying they are all skewed?

>>8698074
yeah, they were all done before the 90's so I definitely don't trust them that much lol.

as an example, untill around 2010 you had to lie and say you were straight in the Netherlands (where I live and went through gatekeeping just now) otherwise the process could take like half a year longer.

I really don't think you understand how extensive gatekeeping is even now, and how bad it was in the 70's, 80's and 90's.

>>8698077
1991 and 1990 are not before the 90s. You have no more recent evidence though that somehow most natal males who identify as trans are NOT attracted primarily to other natal males?

>>8698082
even if this is actually for trans women, it still proves my point that it's about the same
>>8697966

>>8698087
The categories are not very informational. Do you not have any more recent data?

>>8698090
idk I think the categories are pretty clear.

queer is definitely not straight (i.e not exclusively into men) so it doesn't really help your argument. If anything it helps mine, but for the sake of it we can see it as being a neutral factor similar to bisexual.

and no i do not, I am not at all invested in this argument, I know so many non-straight trans women irl that the idea of the vast majority of trans women being exclusively into dudes just seems too absurd to me

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>>8698090
So apparently this is somewhat more recent but again, the category "queer" is not useful for sexual orientation.

Well yes I would define queer as just being homosexual but that's controversial. Apparently this categorization includes both MTF and FTM as far as I can tell.

http://www.transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/resources/NTDS_Report.pdf

>>8698098
>I have anecdotal evidence therefore it is generalizable.

No.

>>8698103
i never said that, I was just explaining why I'm not invested in this argument enough to scrounge for data

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>>8698102

>>8698105
This data would be a lot better if it simply asked what the birth sex of the last sexual partner they have had was.

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>>8698109
So this is the best data we have and they ruined the question by including categories that don't give meaningful information about whether one prefers primarily males or females:

http://www.transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS%20Full%20Report%20-%20FINAL%201.6.17.pdf

>>8698128
This is from 2015 btw.

>>8698129
That said, only 5% of respondents chose gay and I suspect many who chose "bisexual" "pansexual" or "queer" primarily have homosexual relationships with regards to natal sex.

>>8698105
there you go, I think that disproves the initial assertion pretty directly

>>8698139
No because the categories are shitty. What matters is whether people primarily have sex with the same or opposite gender regarding natal sex. Older data indicates same, which you reject because of gatekeeping. Newer data is a mix but there are more categories that are not directly informational to this argument.

>>8698140
listen m80 just because you misgender trans women doesn't mean they themselves do so as well lmao

when a trans woman says they are gay or lesbian or whatever it means they like women

>>8698142
When they say bisexual, pansexual, or queer though in the context of them being trans it mostly likely means they are gay in terms of preferring partners of the same natal sex but because the categories have fallen prey to political correctness we will never know. The typification has become so obfuscatory as to deny actual knowledge of the results and I suspect that's how they want it.

>>8698142
Yeah and in NONE of the studies did a majority of the mtt claim to be gay/lesbian.

>>8698145
yes well that's a pretty biased interpretation of the actual data that was presented I feel. The correct way to to see this is if a trans woman says she's bi then she's bi
>>8698148
here tho? More trans women identified as lesbian or gay than straight.>>8698105

>>8698145
>needing to redefine the terms in order to suit your interpretations of the data
>>8698148
>terfs in charge of quantitative analysis
can't expect better from a group whose theoretical heights are writing polemics (at best) and cherrypicking twitter screenshots

>>8698155
Yeah but then you have ambiguous categories like asexual, queer, and bisexual that don't indicate whether their past partners tended to be same sex (relative to natal sex) or opposite. Gay and straight are the most meaningful terms.

Could have been organized as do you prefer men or women sexually. But no.

So apparently before 2000, according to you, researchers made them lie about being straight, and now they have a bunch of made-up sexualities that don't require them to admit to being gay even if they mostly have gay sex and date people predominantly or exclusively of the same natal sex.

>>8698161
>bisexual is a made-up sexuality
lol

>>8698164
It is a way of obfuscating actual sexual practice. Most people tend to date primarily one sex or the other. Bisexual gives no further information as to whether someone has dated predominantly the same or opposite sex.

>>8698161
>ambiguous categories
if these categories are ambiguous to you then all categories in there are ambiguous because lesbian can include trans fem people and straight can include trans masc people

>Could have been organized as do you prefer men or women sexually
I don't think that would be a very good study as it actually doesn't say that much.

Look I know you're a transphobic cunt trying to just make as many posts as you can where you misgender trans people but at least put some thought into them.

>>8698167
sounds pretty biphobic tbqhwy

>>8698167
maybe go and carry out your extremely intrusive research yourself if you want it to so much i'm sure you're going to get a lot of trans women to self-misgender for it and i'm sure you can get a good enough sample for your study when you tell participants your only goal is to classify them as gay males. ah, wait, you have no experience with quantitative analysis, you don't even know how to construct a sample... you're just looking to see how much you can cherrypick proper studies by misgendering people because your preconceived notions are above all data

>>8698167
4chan, the only place where keyboard warriors try to redefine sexuality for you

Literally, even cracked out blogspots don't try to redefine the word "bisexual" lmao well done :)

>>8698177
Bisexual doesn't tell you whether the person primarily has relationships with males or females. Therefore it is not evidentiary to either side of this argument. Queer, asexual, and pansexual are even less informative. The point is that in earlier studies most subjects declared themselves gay re: natal sex and then they added a bunch more categories and now the data is less clear on whether a majority prefer same sex or opposite sex re: natal sex.

There is no such thing as AGP, AAP, or HSTS. Blanchard isn't a scientist, there is no evidence for any of his ideas. You're all morons.

>>8698173
Sertii why are you posting in these dumb threads? You're just encouraging the hatred they inspire.

>>8698585
i guess i was a lil' bored...
idk i suppose i should probably just never feed the terf

>>8698580
Nah, you're wrong about literally everything you just said.

>>8698580
>t.agp
there is nothing to be ashamed of sweetie

>>8698585
>the hatred they inspire.
???

>>8698580
>>8698585
Posting with an anime avatar is the most AGP thing ever.

>>8698809
Tripfagging is pretty AGP too.

What do you think the comparative autism rates are for AGP vs HSTS MTT?

>>8698812
>Tripfagging is pretty AGP too.
How?

As for autism, AGP are above the natal male average but not as high as FTMs, HSTS are the same as the cis female average, so way less than the natal male average.

>>8698816
>AGP are above the natal male average but not as high as FTMs, HSTS are the same as the cis female average, so way less than the natal male average.

That just is not true.

https://archive.fo/psaP6

Do you have a source for this claim?

Tripfagging is AGP because it represents a focus on an alternative identity as a fixation.

>>8698827
Your link only covers a small handful of children mostly of severely limited intellect, doesn't cover their types and probably includes several who don't fall in either type and aren't trans.

>>8698851
My apologies. Do you gave a better source?

>>8698851
Is this any better?

The literature examining the co-occurrence of gender dysphoria (GD) and autistic traits has so far been limited to a series of small case studies and two systematic studies, one looking at autistic traits in gender dysphoric children and the other set within the context of the extreme male brain hypothesis and looking at adults. The current study examined this co-occurrence of GD and autistic traits in an adult population, to see whether this heightened prevalence persisted from childhood as well as to provide further comparison of MtF versus FtM transsexuals and homosexual versus nonhomosexual individuals. Using the Autistic Spectrum Quotient (AQ), 91 GD adults (63 male-to-female [MtF] and 28 female-to-male [FtM]) undertaking treatment at a gender clinic completed the AQ. The prevalence of autistic traits consistent with a clinical diagnosis for an autism spectrum disorder (ASD) was 5.5 % (n = 3 MtF and n = 2 FtM) compared to reports of clinical diagnoses of 0.5–2.0 % in the general population. In contrast to the single previous report in adults, there was no significant difference between MtF and FtM on AQ scores; however, all of those who scored above the clinical cut-off were classified as nonhomosexual with respect to natal sex. Results were considered in the context of emerging theories for the observed co-occurrence of GD and autistic traits.

https://pastebin.com/UdHhLNfS