>Transgendereds >Transgenders >Shemales >You're

>>8593244
>Its not normal
True but irrelevant.

>You'll never be a real girl
True and sad.

>I had no clue you never showed any signs
Our own fault for letting the GNC narrative be the only narrative.

>You're just doing this because you get aroused from wanting to be the girl
True for most of us.

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>>8593244
The majority of /lgbt/ thinks that if you don't accept these as 100% fact, it means that you're being "mean" to cis people and that you deserve any discrimination you get out of that.

>>8593264
I only want responses from trans people, sorry.

>you're too young (20 years old) to take hormones
>it's so sudden
>no one will ever love you
>you never really tried being a boy
>first find a girlfriend or a gay boyfriend

>>8593264
i was bullied by society too but I don't lurk /lgbt/ with an anime avatar whining about it all day every day

but please, continue the Oppression Olympics under the delusion even the rest of us aren't fucking tired of it

>>8593244
You are a woman.

>>8593253
>True for most of us.
Deranged quakery not recognized by actual scientists.

>>8593264
Didn't you bully people for being "illegitimate" for months and months?

>>8593289
>Deranged quakery not recognized by actual scientists.
#triggered

>>8593295
Yeah APA's triggered as fuck. Neurology's nothing but triggered hons faking MRIs.

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>>8593295
u mad doesn't help your case rly

>>8593299
Quote the neurology that disproved AGP, thanks.

>>8593309
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

To beg a question means to assume the conclusion of an argument—a type of circular reasoning. This is an informal fallacy, in which an arguer includes the conclusion to be proven within a premise of the argument, often in an indirect way such that its presence within the premise is hidden or at least not easily apparent.[1]

The term "begging the question", as this is usually phrased, originated in the 16th century as a mistranslation of the Latin petitio principii, which actually translates as "assuming the initial point".[2] In modern vernacular usage, "to beg the question" is frequently[3] used to mean "to raise the question" (as in "This begs the question of whether...") or "to dodge a question".[2] Many consider these usages incorrect in contexts that demand strict adherence to the technical definition.[4]

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>>8593244

>>8593309
There is a ton of stuff to go through. Check out the first study linked here for one concrete example for how transwomen of all orientations have male-female intermediate white matter tracts before hormones i.e. are neurologically intersexed. There are a lot of other sexually dimorphic brain areas that show intermediate patterns in transsexuals of all orientations before treatment, discussed in the other links. By a lot I mean a lot.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4699258/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality#Genetics
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2005to2009/2006-atypical-gender-development.html
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2015to2019/2016-transsexualism.html

>>8593315
>Neurology's nothing but triggered hons faking MRIs.
Back that shit up. You implied neurology says otherwise.

You dishonest dick.

>>8593309
Quotes from said first paper:
>Whole-brain TBSS analysis revealed widespread differences in MD, AD, and RD maps between the investigated groups, whereas no significant voxels were found for FA maps. Differences in MD included virtually all white matter tracts. Post hoc pairwise comparisons revealed the transition MC < MtF < FtM < FC, with MD values and number of significant voxels increasing significantly (Figs. 1, ,2).2). In other words, female biological sex and female gender identity were associated with increased MD.

>The results of this study show that white matter microstructure in FtM and MtF transsexuals falls halfway between that of FCs and MCs. Females with a female gender identity (FCs) had highest MDs, followed by females with a male gender identity (FtM transsexuals). Further decreased values were found in males with a female gender identity (MtF transsexuals), followed by males with a male gender identity (MCs) having the lowest MD.

>Here, we investigated whether sexual orientation associates with diffusivity measures. No effects on our main findings were observed when sexual orientation was regressed out in the ANCOVA design. Moreover, there was no significant effect of sexual orientation on diffusivity parameters in the regression analysis including all subjects and using group as factor of no interest.

>The results of this study show that the white matter microstructure in FtM and MtF transsexuals falls halfway between that of FCs and MCs. Our data harmonize with the hypothesis that fiber tract development is influenced by the hormonal environment during late prenatal and early postnatal brain development that is proposed to determine gender identity.

>>8593337
Assuming it's accurate, this contradicts AGP how exactly?

>>8593350
Blanchard's theory specifically states that transsexuals do not have a "feminine essence"; that they are in no way actually women.
Neurology shows that transsexuals are basically born with male-female intermediate brains. This is sufficient to explain gender dysphoria.
As both gynephiles (i.e. "AGPs") and androphiles ("HSTSs") have these neural features a single etiology makes far more sense. Since these features are largely set during natal development the post-natal factors Blanchard proposes are not tenable. Why would autogynephiles, in his model, have halfway female brains in the exact same way homosexual transsexuals do?

What Blanchard's research revealed and what we absolutely can't deny is that most trans gynephiles experience autogynephilia, at least before they transition. Why this is the case remains unknown. What we now must deny is that this is a potential cause of transsexuality.

>>8593377
>As both gynephiles (i.e. "AGPs") and androphiles ("HSTSs") have these neural features a single etiology makes far more sense.
The quotes don't distinguish homosexual and nonhomosexual trans people?

>Since these features are largely set during natal development the post-natal factors Blanchard proposes are not tenable.
Maybe AGP and HSTS are both determined pre-natally. That would explain why both are hereditary but unrelated to each other hereditarily.

>What we now must deny is that this is a potential cause of transsexuality.
But by the sound of it neurology causes AGP causes transsexuality?

>>8593429
>The quotes don't distinguish homosexual and nonhomosexual trans people?
Third quote. They specifically checked whether orientation was a factor. It was not.

>But by the sound of it neurology causes AGP causes transsexuality?
If the neurological factors cause androphiles to be trans and these factors are shared between androphiles and gynephiles isn't it far more reasonable to think that both groups share the same underlying condition? Adding two different etiologies on top of that is unnecessary and without basis. That androphiles are more feminine than gynephiles can be explained away by the fact that androphilia correlates with femininity in general e.g. gay men are more feminine than straight men and gay women are more masculine than straight women.

I think the reasonable progression is neurology causing transsexuality in all cases, with gynephilia+transsexuality resulting in AGP in most cases.

>>8593506
IIRC other studies have found specific differences between homosexual and nonhomosexuals.

How does this theory explain "cis" AGPs and desistance and what is its proposed mechanism by which these neurological observations cause transsexuality?

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>Come out to friends and family
>Every, single, one of them: "PLEASE DON'T CUT YOUR DICK OFF ANON"

Jesus. No, faggots, quit thinking every transperson wants SRS. I want this meme to die.

>>8593517
>IIRC other studies have found specific differences between homosexual and nonhomosexuals
That is correct, but the differences are the same differences you find between straight and gay individuals of a given gender in general.

>How does this theory explain "cis" AGPs
First thing first I absolutely think cis AGPs exist. They're the legions of transvestites you see everywhere, worldwide. Some turn out to be trans AGPs but the majority happily live out their lives as men.

There might be multiple paths to developing the same paraphilia. We know there is no single way people develop a given fetish.

>Desistance
This is a tricky subject. I could argue that the old definition for GID didn't actually require the patient to want to be the other sex or that there are social factors that might pressure people back into repression but that can only explain away *some* of the people who desist and perhaps not even the majority. There are two further lines of thought I can offer:

We know actual intersex people are trans at a much higher rate than normal (see the third link), but not ALL of them are trans. As transsexuality, under this model, is a birth defect no individual is exactly the same as another. There are general lines that are similar but you also get these mosaics of unusual features. Some aspects of sexual differentiation, such as BSTcs (see the Wikipedia link), continue developing all the way into adulthood and are only actually dimorphic in adults. Life-long dysphoria might be the result of some variations of this category of birth defects and not of others.

Finally it is possible that GNC kids are pushed into embracing the trans narrative as an "easy" out in certain cultures, and eventually come to understand themselves and desist.

>What is its proposed mechanism by which these neurological observations cause transsexuality?
Out of room. I'm answering this in the next post.

Blanchardfags ruin yet another /tttt/ thread. Truly the cancer shitting up this board.

>>8593244
>Transgendereds
>Transgenders

YU FUCKING NORMIES

>>8593517
>>8593620
This is an hypothesis. A proposed explanation. I'm noting this because what I wrote of intersexuality is factual and I don't want to mix it with things of which we are not yet certain.

People have an innate sense of how their body "ought" be. That includes physical sexual characteristics. The sex-intermediate brains of some individuals expect a body that differs from the one the individual has, which results in a feeling of unease. This is gender dysphoria. This unease does not always manifest right away because the bodies of children are largely androgynous. It can manifest to varying degrees. More feminized (i.e. usually androphilic) individuals notice sooner and vice versa. Dysphoria most commonly strikes around puberty because the most radical, sexual changes occur around puberty. Adult-onset dysphoria might be explained by features that only become fully sexually dimorphic at that point, like some of the aforementioned ones. Non-anatomic dysphoria stems from the interplay between an individual who feels that they "ought be a woman" (i.e. have a woman's body) and society. More feminized (androphilic) transsexuals are typically genital avoidant while less feminized (gynephilic) transsexuals typically aren't because the section that controls that might require the more thorough process in order to "flip" in this manner.

I think that this theory is far more sensible as it accounts for the whole intersex thing while Blanchard's ignore it because his work was created before most of this data was gathered. I think the neurologic findings are very much incompatible with the typology as written.

>>8593620
>We know actual intersex people are trans at a much higher rate than normal (see the third link), but not ALL of them are trans.
That could be explained by things like social factors driving them into repression, like you mentioned.

>Life-long dysphoria might be the result of some variations of this category of birth defects and not of others.
That would explain if any cis people have the same brain differences as trans people.

>Finally it is possible that GNC kids are pushed into embracing the trans narrative as an "easy" out in certain cultures, and eventually come to understand themselves and desist.
How could they be identified, either desistance or from among desisters?

>>8593715
>People have an innate sense of how their body "ought" be. That includes physical sexual characteristics.
I understand that this is just a proposal, but what evidence is there for it? Are there other proposals?

>Adult-onset dysphoria might be explained by features that only become fully sexually dimorphic at that point, like some of the aforementioned ones.
What about onset much later than teens/twenties?

>Non-anatomic dysphoria stems from the interplay between an individual who feels that they "ought be a woman" (i.e. have a woman's body) and society.
Does this imply that if a trans woman wasn't given an idea of how gender roles are connected to sex, she (or he?) would still feel physical dysphoria, but wouldn't feel any need to dress as a woman, adopt female pronouns, etc?

What about people who feel more social dysphoria and less anatomic, or the reverse?

>while less feminized (gynephilic) transsexuals typically aren't because the section that controls that might require the more thorough process in order to "flip" in this manner.
Couldn't this be part of the social side, since gynephilic mtfs can use their genitals in lesbians sex while androphilic mtfs can't in the same way in het sex?

>>8593244
>So when you getting THE SURGERY(tm)?
so when are you getting labiaplasty you roastie bitch?

>>8595037
What if it's a guy?

>>8595019
>That could be explained by things like social factors driving them into repression, like you mentioned.
That's possible but that would mean the majority of them are repressing which I think is less likely.

>That would explain if any cis people have the same brain differences as trans people.
Can you please rephrase yourself? I'm not sure I understood you.

>How could they be identified, either desistance or from among desisters?
Good question. In the future I think we'll be able to rely on brain scans to at least rule out definitely cis people but for now I suppose you have to rely on traditional one-on-one psychotherapy. I suspect that we could make use of scans now, mind, but the political will isn't there. The economic will definitely isn't.

>I understand that this is just a proposal, but what evidence is there for it? Are there other proposals?
It is an attempt to make sense of the fact that trans people are intersexed in this fashion, trying to explain how that could lead to the experience of gender dysphoria. There is no proof that this is the connection between trans brains being like they are and gender dysphoria, just that such a connection almost definitely exists (barring some new out of the left field discovery which changes everything, of course). At the moment it is largely speculatory.

I don't know of other hypotheses that include everything we know. Scientists seem very cautious about committing to things in general. Even this one came with a lot of disclaimers along the lines of "but we can't say that for sure yet".

>What about onset much later than teens/twenties?
I don't have a good answer to this. We're entering wild wild speculation land but two non-exclusive possibilities come to mind. One, some such individuals have only come to realize the nature of what they've been experiencing at that point and don't parse prior discomfort as dysphoria. Two, age-related hormonal fluctuations triggered the change.

>>8595019
>Does this imply that if a trans woman wasn't given an idea of how gender roles are connected to sex, she (or he?) would still feel physical dysphoria, but wouldn't feel any need to dress as a woman, adopt female pronouns, etc?
According to this line of thought, yes.

>What about people who feel more social dysphoria and less anatomic, or the reverse?
The source would still have to be anatomic under this model, but as social dysphoria depends on an individual's experience with society how affected they are by it can greatly vary.

>Couldn't this be part of the social side, since gynephilic mtfs can use their genitals in lesbians sex while androphilic mtfs can't in the same way in het sex?
I haven't thought of this nor read of it anywhere else. It's an interesting idea. Some very young androphilic transsexuals seem averse to their genitals. Do you think this explanation could apply to them?

>>8593324
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4699258/
>Here, we investigated whether sexual orientation associates with diffusivity measures. No effects on our main findings were observed when sexual orientation was regressed out in the ANCOVA design. Moreover, there was no significant effect of sexual orientation on diffusivity parameters in the regression analysis including all subjects and using group as factor of no interest.
Interesting. This contradicts what Blanchardianism would predict.

>>8595082
>so when are you going to mutilate your cock you faggot?

>>8593620
How do we tell where cis AGP ends and trans AGP begins? I'm an AGP repressor in my early 30s and i'm all mixed up due to lifelong repression.

i don't see any other medical condition get this much scrutiny. no one blames cancer even if you eat nothing but fake food. being an online drug addict gets less flak than an online trans. lol.

this thread is the reason i don't trust therapy. i don't see any positive from telling things about myself. but every little word i say will be documented and cross examined 999x.

well time to go watch some hypno therapist humiliation porn.

i'm starting to think pornhub deserves renumeration from obamacare because they're resolving my issues quicker and friendlier than any therapist i've met.

>>8593326

That's sarcasm, famalam. Obviously the MRI scans aren't faked.

>>8593244
My mom has said all of those things. Literally.

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>>8593620
> First thing first I absolutely think cis AGPs exist. They're the legions of transvestites you see everywhere, worldwide. Some turn out to be trans AGPs but the majority happily live out their lives as men.

I don't think the evidence points towards cis AGPs being a separate spectrum from trans AGP. Cis AGPs have a much greater desire to be women than average and a worse body image.

>>8597715
Anon, is this a survey that you conducted yourself?

>>8597717
Yes.

>>8597762
Where did you gather it from? Did you specifically seek out communities of straight cross-dressers? Why wouldn't cross-dressers desire to be feminine?

You know my opinion of online surveys as scientific tools: there is a severe self-selection effect depending on which communities you present the surveys to. There are less older people online in general. I really don't think you can say that cis people can't develop an autogynephilia fetish because an online survey says otherwise.

>>8597804
I just asked /r/SampleSize.

>>8597855
Do you understand why surveying the general population won't tell you much about crossdressers in specific?

>>8597715
>gay men nonfem+nonagp
>straight men correlate and lean non-both
>bi men correlate and lean both
What's the deal with the nonfem+nonagp bisexuals?

>>8597872
I've gotten crossdresser responses.

>>8597883
I've gotten weird results with bisexual men. For several surveys in a row, it could essentially be boiled down to "all bisexual men are AGP", but for some reason I stopped getting these results. I'm not quite sure what's happening (... actually, maybe the change happened around the time I switched the way I asked about sexual orientation, I'll have to look into that).

https://youtu.be/NZbcLIXhyxA?t=1m21s
Best movie scene with transgenders!

>>8597933
They probably stopped identifying as men and now you're onto the next "generation" of bis who haven't realized their AGP yet.

(What was the change?)

>>8597913
Okay, but how many of the people who frequent crossdresser communities do you reckon frequent reddit? Are you getting typical responses, or responses filtered by whatever crowd goes to reddit? Are you reaching the older demographics?

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>>8593244
Can't wait

>>8593620
>that there are social factors that might pressure people back into repression
A lot of the high-profile detransition cases have those elements when you look into them.
Stuff like a long-term spouse dying and them being left alone of with unaccepting family, living in an intolerant family/community, surgery not going well, or they went through unofficial channels and transitioned much faster than is normal without as much medical oversight and usually rush into surgery too, usually with comorbid conditions.

It's all just really sad. Like I haven't seen one case that didn't just make me feel bad for the person.

>>8593244

I'll add one.

>The fact that you perceive yourself as the other sex is almost certainly partially caused by the culture you were raised in and you only want to be the other sex because it allows you to defy gender norms completely

>>8595626
>This contradicts what Blanchardianism would predict.
Very low quality evidence.

>>8596528
>Obviously the MRI scans aren't faked.
That's what the traditional narrative would force us to accept.

>>8596295
According to blanchard if you're an adult that suffers from gender dysphoria then you're transsexual and the treatment is transition. The different categories are about the supposed causes of dysphoria but the result is the same as far as the need to transition goes.
He only hypothesises that agp children might somehow be cured with a yet undiscovered conversion therapy.

>>8593244
It is a Mental Illness though, it`s called Gender Dysphoria you should be treated like a human being but that does not mean you do not need help. A 60% Suicide rate after transition is not Normal by any means. The first thing you learn in psych is that their are only two types of people who kill themselves, The mentally ill who are really screwed in the head, and those who truly have nothing left to live for. Like an example given of an old Man whom all of his friends and family had died and he had nothing left just simply stopped eating.

>>8602295
>60% suicide rate after transition
This is how to spot the person who just parrots statistics

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>>8593244
>tfw you pass
>tfw everyone just assumes you've had the surgery
>tfw they seem so surprised and confused when I explain to them that it costs like 10 grand and it's not really easily accessible.
>"but... haven't you already gotten the surgery?"
>"No"
>"But you look like a girl"
>"that's not how it works"
>"But you look like a girl"

i swear to god one of these days i am going to bash someone's head in.

>>8602331
>When your mere existence is incomprehensible to a cis person
Transhumanism is going to be like staring Cthulu in the face in a few years time.

>>8602312
The "stats" aren't even correct.

>>8602295
>The first thing you learn in psych
I take it you have some kind of psych degree?

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>>8602342
>it's a "I vaguely sorta remember the statistic was high and trans are mentally ill so they need a cure!" episode

If the anon is reading this. The suicide ATTEMPT rate is between 40-48% pre-transition and skyrockets to 60%+ when they become homeless.

>>8602312
They are in thailand where I currently live, the ladyboys stay as just feminine men and are fine but the trans folk commit suicide alot. Like one killed himself (originally her) by just jumping into the river the other day. Family was supposedly accepting and nobody gave a damn. He just up and offed himself.

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>>8602358
>muh statistical claim is backed up by anecdotal evidence

>>8602350
Earining my Bachelors at Chulalongkorn University in Bangkok.

>>8602369
Anecdotal? there is no bias against trans in Thailand (except the muslim minority ghettos in the south they wont be there for much longer) Nobody gives a damn and they still kill themselves alot. That is what many trans in the US complain about as reason for suicide yes? that does not exist here due to their being cultural precedence for it. So why do they keep killing themselves.

>>8602370
I already have a BA in psych. My focus was more on the experimental side. I feel that your statements are sloppy. You should already be aware that "mental illness" is a very imprecise term and tells you little about what's going on with any individual. "Really screwed in the head" is such a great example of precise, scientific terminology.

>>8602391
I don't think you quite grasp what anecdotal means.

>>8602401
Forgive my poor English I was unaware that I had to give a dissertation on an anonymous image board.

>>8602295
I might just be ignorant, but I think transgenderism is not considered a mental illness by the APA, however, gender dysphoria is. One of the ways people treat gender dysphoria is via transitioning, and if that works to relieve the dysphoria, then that person I believe is no longer considered mentally ill by the DSMV.

>>8602417
I'm fully transitioned and happy with it. I don't currently have a DSM diagnosis at all. I guess my health care providers consider my gender dysphoria to have been successfully treated.

>>8602409
You don't have to use perfect English or give dissertations. You should try not to sound like a /pol/tard though.

>>8602357
>The suicide ATTEMPT rate is between 40-48% pre-transition
That is already a skyrocket. It's like 4-10% iirc with a supportive family.

>>8602417
But psychiatry is a low-tear medical field. Loss of sexual organs for a male is a trauma on the physiological level. This should override any mental health consideration.
Likewise, there should be no surgical treatment for the body integrity identity disorder.
The standard anti-psychotic+antidepressant mix should be used, with the ECT if it's insufficient.

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>>8602501
>doesn't know the difference between BIID and GD and why GD necessitates transitioning but BIID doesn't
>Is unironically getting towards the 'muh pimozide' argument that was quashed the moment it got published in the 90's.

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>>8593244
What hope do we have.

>>8602501
cool dude alright king

i'll stick with meth if i can't have E

now u got tweakers running around. biatch.

>>8602522
There is no difference in the clinical picture: both are unhappy with physiologically functional state of their bodies and are ready to harm themselves for the sake of satisfying their insanity.
APs don't heal it at all, I know, but they alleviates self-harming behavior. 'Surgical transition' is just intentional trauma for the sake of the demented obsession. It's completely unacceptable in medicine.
While health = Physiological health + Mental health + Happiness, Happiness < Mental health < Physiological health.

>>8602559
>mutilating the brain with (((anti psychotics))) is good! but cosmetic surgery is the devil, and that's why i want it banned!

fuck you heretic. i dare you to take anti psychotics for a week. don't push shit on others that you wouldn't do yourself. especially long effecting shit like ssri and AP's.

>>8602501
>ECT
Fuck ECT. That's barbaric stuff there. You'd rather fry someone's brain than let them get SRS or even HRT. Such a humanitarian.

>>8602559
Does
Not
Know
Shit

>>8602501
>>8602559
>Recommends ECT and anti-psychotics for GENDER DYSPHORIA
Jesus christ KEK

>>8602559
What's your mental illness that trannies trigger you so much? Maybe you should try antipsychotics and ECT to see if your pathology can be cured.

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>>8602501
>anti-psychotic
>ECT
holy fuck

>>8602591
I did actually. Chlorprothixene is efficient sleep aid.
While there are changes in glial matter after long time usage and possibility of akathisia, the size effects aren't permanent. Yes, it's sounds pretty horrible: I suggest them to lie around with horrible headaches, dullness and salivation, instead of fulfilling lives as other sexes, but medical ethics shouldn't allow intentional physiological harm.
>>8602604
It doesn't fry your brain too much and has been shown to be a good treatment of severe depression.
>>8602609>>8602617
Stop butthurting.
>>8602615
Not trannies. Existence of surgical treatments for them.

>>8602617
Maybe a more experimental and modern treatment needs to be used like a lobotomy made accessible via a lobotomobile. KEK.

>>8602480
Yep. I also cant remember which it is but either post-transition regret or post-surgery regret is also around 4%

>>8602625
>It doesn't fry your brain too much
>too much
I'm well aware that it's still used sometimes for severe depression. That doesn't change my opinion that ECT is barbaric. I'd ban it entirely if it were up to me.
>medical ethics shouldn't allow intentional physiological harm
There's no harm done in using parts of otherwise useless tissue to make something more useful, functional, and pleasing to the individual involved. It's an improvement. It's none of your business anyway. What's your mental illness that causes you to obsess so much about trannies?

>>8602646
He actually took anti-psychotics to """"""sleep""""" so do you even need to ask?

>>8602625
what would you do for someone who prizes cognitive function above all else?
your ethics promote allowing horrible headaches, dullness and salivation?
what do you think of the old world when monks etc would get casterated and consume loads of soy for the rest of their lives? is that not as good as some new age pill?

>>8602646
The level of redundancy and robustness in the brain is enough to sustain function after the perturbation by small, but uniform neuronal death. It's quite harmless in this sense. Moreover, it works.
> useless tissue
The state of physiological health isn't predicated upon purpose of the society or the individual. It's useful in the general biological context: testes are useful, because they produce testosterone to regulate other cells and create sperm allowing reproduction. It's not a concern for medicine that the person doesn't like the effects of testosterone or has decided not to reproduce. The health is a state when all organs are in place, functioning to support and regulate each other.
>What's
I've already answered to this butthurt question.
>>8602647
Yes, central anti-histomines would be more specific, but APs with this target are more available here. The dosage was outside of the therapeutic range for psychotic disorders, you silly bun.
>>8602651
>what would you do for someone who prizes cognitive function above all else?
Well, dysphoria actually denotes lowered mood, so antidepressants should be used. Many have positive effects on cognition in depressed patients.
But before all, a person who prizes cognitive function has better things to do, than being consumed with his or her actual sex.
>your ethics promote allowing
Yes, I know it can be interpreted as harming people. But I see people as organisms first, and agents second only. If a brain malfunctions and tries to harm the rest of the body, just incapacitate it temporarily.
>what do you think of the old world when monks etc would get casterated and consume loads of soy for the rest of their lives?
The same thing I think about cultural practices involving physical violence or mutilation.

>>8602501
>Loss of sexual organs for a male is a trauma on the physiological level.
For cis men sure. Not so for the vast majority of transwomen. And transition doesn't necessitate loss of sex organs. A lot of trans people do go for it, but you by no means have to.

>This should override any mental health consideration.
Why? Because it's weird or gross?

>>8602753
>Well, dysphoria actually denotes lowered mood, so antidepressants should be used.
Antidepressants aren't a treatment for gender dysphoria. They certainly had zero effect on mine.
You're so concerned with physiological health but have a carefree attitude towards destroying neurons. You seem totally mentally ill to me. You also have an unhealthy interest in other peoples's bodies and controlling what they do with them. Utterly and completely mentally ill. Take your antipsychotics. When can we schedule your ECT for?

>>8602753
like i said, i refuse anti depressants. i'll stick to crystal meth. you're a shitty doctor. u would mutilate my mind to make my body conform to your ideal culture. how manly and empire of you.

so i refuse anti depressants and electrocution. what else u got doc? i just want my nuts cut off and some estrogens.

>>8602795
He's just a whiny little spoiled brat bitch.
>Mommy, mommy!
>Those nasty trannies are doing gross things that I don't like!
>Mommy make them stop!

>>8602295
>all of his friends and family had died and he had nothing left
Transgender people are at high risk of losing their families and friends when they come out as well.

oh shit haha
>The first thing you learn in psych is that their are only two types of people who kill themselves

lol this wage slave cuck


good thing i used pornhub to deal with my therapy issues.

>>8602755
A path of normal development is determined for an organism after fertilization. If it's deviates from this path, it's the task of medicine to return all parameters and processes into the normal range. Assigned sex organs aren't gross, but certainly less interesting and functional. "Less healthy".
>>8602772
>They certainly had zero effect on mine.
They are useless for half of depressed patients too.
>You're so concerned with physiological health but have a carefree attitude towards destroying neurons
Organisms have many levels of organization. The most important aspect of physiological health is the right interaction between systems of organs, then between organs in the systems, between tissues in the organs, between cells in tissue, etc... If it happens that the nervous system fails to regulate other systems well, then it is permissible to traumatize a smaller component (neurons of the brain tissue) for the sake of sustenance of the whole organism. Actually, cellular death is a very important for normal function and development.
>You seem totally mentally ill to me
>Utterly and completely mentally ill.
It may be, but psychiatric evaluation requires long observation, so you should skeptical about your feelings.
>You also have an unhealthy interest in other peoples's bodies
There is no normal range for interest, ha. It's, probably, true: the best condition for a person is death, so it can be cut and studied in pieces. But medicine shouldn't allow killing (I oppose of euthanasia too: yes, let them suffer until they die).
>Take your antipsychotics. When can we schedule
I sleep well now, thank you for your concern. Why so much butthurt?
>>8602795
>u would mutilate my mind
It's already...
>to make my body conform to your ideal culture
It's not a problem that you have a certain image of an ideal body. It's the problem the medicine is currently following your desire to cut anything from you.
>manly
I don't have any intention of conforming to any gender.

>>8602837
>A path of normal development is determined for an organism after fertilization. If it's deviates from this path, it's the task of medicine to return all parameters and processes into the normal range.

But that's literally what transition is.

Trans people have intersex brains. The goal of transition is to bring the body more in line with the intersex brain's identity. Since we have no way to change the brain, we have to change the body. And even if we theoretically could modify the brain, that's a whole can of worms of ethical questions. You are your brain more than anything else, changing that is changing you.

>>8602837
You're medical paternalism and dunning-kruger incarnate. Holy shit, stereotypes like you are the crazy docs in B-grade movies.

>>8602837
Cut the pseudo-scientific BS. Everything you say boils down to this:
>Trannies are gross.
>I want them to go away.
You're wasting a lot of time and energy trying to justify your unfounded prejudices.

>>8602837
>It's, probably, true: the best condition for a person is death, so it can be cut and studied in pieces
Psychopath.

Cool story bro

>>8602837
Edgy teen or actual psychopath?
The world may never know.

>>8602863
Probs one of those good highschool achievers that signed up for psych but has a weird view on what medical professionals actually do and is vaguely trying to fit the 'role' of a psych but hasnt abandoned their personal feelings on the issue.

Sorta like how you go to first year law school first semester and see all these losers in suits spout that crap 'is fanciful to the extreme' or 'I disagree with that factual assertion.'

>>8593253
>>You're just doing this because you get aroused from wanting to be the girl
>True for most of us.
There's no better satisfaction in life than being attracted to your own girl body and playing with your boobies.

>>8602863
Just Asian with their retarded anti individualistic culture.

>>8602875
Maybe he's butthurt because the last ladyboy prostitute he went to had a bigger pecker than he has.

>>8593620
>>Desistance
These people don't realize that not every trans kid has the balls/assertiveness to rebel against their parents and yell "NO I WANNA WEAR A DRESS!!!! I WANNA BE A GIRL!!!" especially if the kid picked up on the fact that the parents want them to act like a boy. And if you truly are a girl, wouldn't that make you more timid and obedient so you don't desist?

If you're a timid kid, it doesn't matter if you truly are a girl or want to wear a dress and long hair, you'll blindly obey your parents when they cow you into getting a short haircut.

>>8602847
>But that's literally what transition is.
No, it's external modification of the organism.
>Trans people have intersex brains. The goal of transition is to bring the body more in line with the intersex brain's identity.
I agree that adult transsexuals have gross and histological similarities to opposite sexes in some sex-dimorphic structures of the brain (also, teens have much less pronounced, so behavior and environment can have influences). But this are just crude observation: nobody knows what computations those structures perform, what role they play, apart from some involvement in sex-specific behaviors. Is there a gender identity enforced by the brain through the mood? It's not evidence for that.
There are neural correlates almost for anything, starting from the belief in Santa Clause and ending with OCD. The content of obsessions is quite arbitrary (but typical cases exit), for example. Why isn't transsexualism a mix of some OCD-like disorder with nonpathological "expectations" about his or her sex? In this case, the actual mechanism of the discomfort is to be corrected.
>>8602851
>You're medical paternalism
No, I'm not.
>dunning-kruger incarnate
Because here I ponder about what medical ethics should be which is a general philosophical question, expertise in medicine and actual medical ethics is helpful, but not a requirement. So, this psychological phenomenon can't be applied. If you have a counter-factual statement from my side, then please tell me.
>>8602863
(Edgy teen who likes biology)
>>8602875
Hey, I use lexical means available to me. I can't speak normal English just because it's not my native tongue and I don't use it casually.
>>8602853
>Everything you say boils down to this
There is no sense in responding to statements you ignore.
>You're wasting a lot of time
Actually, what I'm doing now is quite useful for me.

>>8602916
inb4 "you're all data to me in a social experiment"

>>8602183
Do you think this can actually explain the majority of desisters?

>>8602417
That's correct. The /pol/poster is delusional.

>>8602559
How do you feel about the fact that the actual medical establishment disagree with you?

>>8602958
If you mean the ethical disagreement, I'm fine with being evil.
When somebody wants to cut something off, it's just a great opportunity for psychiatric treatment. It's fun, it's interesting, it's proper.
They make the world boring with their pragmatic and utilitarian values. The proper way isn't one that increases happiness and functioning in the society. Especially, hearing it from surgeons... what a disgrace! Aesthetic surgery shouldn't exist anyway.
If you mean any factual disagreement, then, please, tell me, I'm likely to be wrong and would like to know about it.

>>8602996
I mean both.
Read the thread up to your post.

>>8593324
>neurologically intersexed
sex does not reside in the brain
gender does not reside in the brain
psychiatric disorders do though

>>8603204
>sex does not reside in the brain
That's laughably wrong.

>>8593715
there's been no demonstrated correlation between androphilic or gynephilic behavior or genital dysphoria or early transgenderism

You're just drawing lines in the sand like the rest of the crazy fucks on this board without any sort of medical weight or backing behind you trying desperately to be THE PARADIGM SHIFTER!!1111one without a hint of a thought toward how you could make that dream a reality.

I despise people like you. You have the gall to call your spew a hypothesis when in fact you have no intention of ever testing it! It's just barroom talk except so pretentious you developed the delusion that it can even be compared with anything legitimate.

>>8603769
Maybe I'm wrong but I feel that you're on the same side as me and that it would be a shame for us to fight one another. Lets try to bridge this.

>There's been no demonstrated correlation between androphilic or gynephilic behavior or genital dysphoria or early transgenderism
I recall reading the opposite quite clearly. If you're certain of this I'll try to look it up again. Maybe I got this wrong. If you know of a source that says this that would help.

>You're just drawing lines in the sand like the rest of the crazy fucks on this board without any sort of medical weight or backing behind you trying desperately to be THE PARADIGM SHIFTER!!1111one without a hint of a thought toward how you could make that dream a reality.
My intention wasn't to invent anything or to "shift the paradigm" but to explain, to the best of my understanding, "the proposed mechanism by which these neurological observations cause transsexuality". If I had overstepped beyond what is believed by professionals then I apologize.

>I despise people like you. You have the gall to call your spew a hypothesis when in fact you have no intention of ever testing it! It's just barroom talk except so pretentious you developed the delusion that it can even be compared with anything legitimate.
My purpose was to relay, not to create.

>>8603922
>a hypothesis is not a creation

You weren't 'relaying' shit and the fact you have the sheer ivory towerism in your eyes to claim you speak for any scientific community means you're dropped.

Go to school.

And case studies are not a correlation.

>>8603937
Why are you looking for a fight? Wouldn't you rather convince me that you're right, so that I don't spread any more harmful misinformation and instead help spread the truth?

>You weren't 'relaying' shit and the fact you have the sheer ivory towerism in your eyes to claim you speak for any scientific community means you're dropped.
I'm not sure I understand your objection. Why can't a person hear a professional say something and repeat it?

>And case studies are not a correlation.
Why can't many different studies, taken together, be inferred to show a trend among a given population?

>>8603966
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization

Hasty generalization is an informal fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence—essentially making a rushed conclusion without considering all of the variables. In statistics, it may involve basing broad conclusions regarding the statistics of a survey from a small sample group that fails to sufficiently represent an entire population.[1] Its opposite fallacy is called slothful induction, or denying a reasonable conclusion of an inductive argument (e.g. "it was just a coincidence").

>>8603970
Now I definitely know we're on the same side. I recall arguing with some of the same people you responded to with Wikipedia articles accusing them of committing logical fallacies (assuming you're the same person, of course).

I see. So you're saying there aren't enough such cases to definitely say this is the case one way or another? I suppose that's possible but how might one gauge such a thing in this context?

>>8603922
>Maybe I'm wrong but I feel that you're on the same side as me and that it would be a shame for us to fight one another.
Excuse me but shouldn't all discussions be truth-seeking, not advocating for 'sides'?

>>8604078
Of course. I think this person thinks I'm dog-whistling and is upset by what the dog-whistle would imply rather than by what I wrote. I'm trying to explain myself to them.

>>8602949
Yes.
There are proportionally very few desisters and the studies that suggest otherwise like that one about child desisters play very fast and loose with the science, casting a wide net to include absolutely any variation from the gender norm rather than just people that express physical dysphoria and a desire to transition.
As I said almost all the high profile specific cases of transition have elements of unaccepting families/communities religions and spouses passing away along with many being late in life which goes along with religious factors. Other rare high profile cases of people supposedly "slipping through the cracks" often include co morbid conditions and them not being pushed by some medical conspiracy but rather pursuing it themselves and often avoiding the normal doctors and medical channels of transition to rush towards surgery before anything else and generally deviating from normal transsexuals indicating other issues.

The thing is that the path to reducing the rate of false positives is just more attention and better training, oversight and medical care for transition which is what proponent want anyway while critics just have conspiracy theory, unreliable "alternative" studies that mostly just misinterpret other people's data, and trying to undermine and ban any research or medical care for the whole field.

>>8603204
>sex does not reside in the brain
While it's false, almost all research is followed by misinterpretations like "MtFs have intersex brain", which are pretty meaningless in the individual sense because of the large overlaps in measured variable between women and men.
More robust (N=1400) studies of (gray/white matter structure) for normal males and females would report something like
>Our study demonstrates that although there are sex/gender differences in brain structure, brains do not fall into two classes, one typical of males and the other typical of females, nor are they aligned along a “male brain–female brain” continuum. Rather, even when considering only the small group of brain features that show the largest sex/gender differences, each brain is a unique mosaic of features, some of which may be more common in females compared with males, others may be more common in males compared with females, and still others may be common in both females and males. The heterogeneity of the human brain and the huge overlap between the forms that brains of males and brains of females can take can be fully appreciated when looking at the entire brain

>>8606731
And how "almost invariable" is it for mtfs and ftms to watch their transitioned sex?

>>8606755
I'm guessing they meant "match".

>>8606731
What have you used to read the graph?

Not only there is overlap, but modes of the distributions fall intro the intersex range for each region. The pictures show that people with mostly intersex state (either by mixing the states equally or by having the measures in the intermediate region) appear often.
In the final graph, you can see that about 10% of males have completely intersex brain without male or female characteristics. ~34% of males have intersex brain by mixing the same number of characteristics.

Also, MtF brain has male characteristics by the way (in other study).

>>8606879
>f we applied the same reasoning to BSTcs
Right: on the basis of six dead trannies who had undergone HRT (one of which ended up having a male-sized BSTc anyway) and knowing that it becomes dimorphic only in adulthood by action of steroid hormones.

>>8607013
>HRT was controlled for.
One female, two eunuchs who were castrated less than 3 months before death, and two trannies who stopped taking HRT about a year before death. You see what kind of evidence is this?.. shitty kind of evidence. Almost laughable because it's extremely important when the HRT is started, not when it ended. For instance, in mice, early postnatal exposure of BSTs can lead to feminization/masculinization. Taken that certain aspects of development of the human brain are greatly extended compared to other animals, it's possible that HRT during adolescence can have an effect.
Interestingly, these treatments (but prenatal and decreasing the size of BSTs) are used as animal autism models.
>for some reason.
I just don't want to search for them in the thread. It's more work than I want to invest. Also, if it's a blog or wikipedia, then no.
>Here's the Wikipedia section that touches on what you wrote
Yes, I saw the paper.
>many other studies that came to the conclusions I speak of.
It is apparent that Mr. Dick (1995 and 2002) enjoys making far-fetching conclusions from scarce data but I accept them (data) as accurate. Some conclusions are probably right too... under careful interpretation.

>>8607112
>there are many others with bigger sample sizes
For the BSTc? What are those studies?
>you are really interested in the subject
Actually, meh. I've recently become angry about certain privileges of trannies, that's all.
>not just in beating me in an argument
What were we arguing about?
>PMC4699258
Oh, I've seen these.
Again, there are large overlaps in variables between 1sigma-intervals for controls in other studies (CC mean diffusion for 80 normal subjects of both sexes with the same number of by handedness) . So, their FC>FtM>MtF>MC is significant for group measures, but is kind of dull.If I ask you to decide on sex of normal people by MD of a good area, it wouldn't reach high levels of reliability. "MtF intersex brain" becomes "MtF are unlikely to show extreme masculine (low MD) or feminine features". MtF and FtM also have huge absolute variability in this study.
>summarize what the studies say then link to them
If it's a review of the current results published a peer-reviewed journal, then it's fine. There is a certain problem with summaries, because the level of certainty isn't represented well by words. Also, it's so easy to find disproportionate conclusions in this area. Summaries become just disproportionate conclusions based on other disproportionate conclusions.
I've read summaries in neuroscience textbooks too. While they confirm biological causes underlying transsexualism (my common sense says the same), they were quite uncertain about bold statements like "Gender identity is predetermined".
Gender identity has two definitions: subjective (special feeling as a certain gender) and operational (by a silly questionnaire). I don't like the idea of the first, because it's so alien for me to understand. So, it don't believe it exists. Research can't show otherwise, because they must use objective variable.
>Milton Diamond, a very famous researcher
I like his credentials, but it's not peer-reviewed and he's just too...old.

What's with the deleted posts here?

>>8610273
I wonder too.

>>8597715
>durr the results arent right because theyre lying I know they just want to fuck women not be women
nice "chart"

>>8610273
>>8610474
I got baited in another thread and responded to spam with spam. This got me banned for a bit, and my old posts deleted. I don't blame the mod - their tools probably just delete everything a given poster has posted in a given time window. You can see the thread as it was here:
https://archive.loveisover.me/lgbt/thread/8593244/

>>8611195
...though why the other person's last post, where we come to roughly agree with one another, was deleted is beyond me.

>>8611243
There is a weird desire to delete your own post, when you find out you have responded to a deleted post.

>>8611341
Oh, hey, if that's you we can continue the conversation.

>>8611359
Just less vigorously.
>>8607796
>right?
Was it imitate the feeling of hope in the face of inducing infinite philosophical pain? (Do qualia really exist?)
(Uselss philosophical pondering was removed for shortness.)
My thoughts about gender dysphoria are following: It relates gender identity (by the silly questionnaires), body image with the mood somehow. And I don't think it's possible without cognition. A layman speculation I like is that it gets split into female behavioral traits (intrinsic), but there is always pressure to conform to the gender role connected to one's sex, which triggers in turn a obsession for a complete transformation into the repressed gender. The feeling of alienation for the genitals stems from the obsession being unsatisfied: They appear guilty of repression. The pathological thing is how these obsessions form, not genitals or female traits. It predicts similarities for non-gender-related repressed personality traits and existence of feminine males without GD.
>I think that's unreasonable.
B-but I still don't feel gender identity. Seriously, other emotions and perceptions have clear evolutionary value by modifying behavior of healthy individuals. Disease is usually incapacity of a variety of them. In anti-social disorder, people don't feel empathy. In depression or schizophrenia, they are often anhedonic or apathetic. Depression, by the way, doesn't simply mean you're depressed. Normal people feel depressed too. It means you are continuously depressed (or have lower mood) for a long time. Now, the feeling of gender identity clearly appears in behavior of transsexuals only, and gender roles are explainable by social mechanisms in normal people.
>you to the relevant research though, right?
Not sure neuroscience. It's developing faster and much more complex than fields where I know examples of old people doing nice review of recent research, I'd just look for most cited papers in good journals and collected their references.

>>8593244
most of those things are valid things, some of the time.

>>8611475
>Completely unreasonable: trannies can get "straight" guys and most of my crushes were straight. I still get angry both with guys and trannies (and girls too). I know it's silly to hate everybody, but it helps and is fun. I even felt a bit of "gender dysphoria", in the sense that I was appalled by my body not conforming to tastes of men (homo Blanchard type? but I'm not transsexual at all: being girl or boy makes no sense).
Hey, supposedly there are a whole lot of men who are into other men but don't dare to act on this and/or repress their desires even to themselves due to social factors. As society becomes more accepting your dating pool will expand.

>I hope it means that incomplete masculinization (meaning partial feminization too) of the brain is prevalent in MtFs. Yes, it was shown many times. Even some genetic mechanisms have been identified with obvious developmental meanings (polymorphism of the androgen receptor). So, that's solid.
I'm glad we agree on this.

>Biologization can be also about certain structures in the brain of every MtF, which develop specifically to scan for gendered stereotypes and anatomical features, to encode the female gender identity and to cause distress when they don't match. The idea doesn't make much sense and is extremely difficult to demonstrate. But apparently, it's what everybody experiences here, so saying it's not acquired... very bold.
My view (borrowed from professionals rather than self-formed, mind) is that anatomy is in some ways "hardwired" in this fashion while the social stuff is acquired. See:
https://archive.loveisover.me/lgbt/thread/8593244/#q8593715

>That would be interesting.
Warning: it does cite BSTcs but quickly moves past that.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/840538

>>8593244
>Urggerders
>Bergerrders
>EMAILs?
>Ur ger berger
>Urts nert nurtual
>Urmserri...

>>8611475
>My thoughts about gender dysphoria
I think there's definitely a socialized aspect, but that the basis of dysphoria is as I outlined above. It appears across cultures and ages, right? In very small children. In people who are reluctant to identify as women but still feel they should have the body of women.

>I still don't feel gender identity
Here's how I think of this: a man with two arms doesn't feel the absence of an arm because he has two arms. He "feels" he has said arms but it is just so utterly mundane, so banal and intrinsic to his life, that he pays the sensation no heed. A man missing an arm, on the other hand (hohoho), is sometimes acutely aware of missing an arm.

>Gender roles
I think social dysphoria is not intrinsic but emergent from anatomic dysphoria interacting with a person's socialization-informed view of themselves, with anatomic dysphoria being innate.

>>8611507
>supposedly there are a whole lot of men
As a total count or a percent? I'd expect it to be less than 1%.
>My view (borrowed from professionals rather than self-formed, mind) is that anatomy is in some ways "hardwired" in this fashion while the social stuff is acquired.
The two most important questions in biology are how? and why?. It doesn't give any insight. Encoding an expected structure for the body has no purpose in evolutionary setting and it is too complex to form inherently. Sexually dimorphic structures have completely unknown relationship with the sensory representation of the body. On the other hand, structures involved in perception don't care about gender, because they develop similarly for other parts of the body.
>>8611539
>In very small children
How is it measured? I remind that sexual dimorphism is low at this stage of life.
>is sometimes acutely aware of missing an arm.
If you mean phantom limbs, then they develop not because the body doesn't correspond to sme encoded normal body structure in the brain, but because the area of somatosensory cortex loses its input, so it starts reorganizing to help process inputs for nearby areas, but fails. Somatosensory cortex is very pliable and early sensory input (as for other systems involved in perception) is extremely important for development.
It is possible that transsexuals have some physical feeling in their genitals, corresponding to a pathological organization of an area in the somatosensory cortex (as it's been compared with the BIID, it also explains why reassignment surgery resolves GD by decreasing sensitivity), but it shouldn't be a gender thing. It's possible, though, that this particular area is responsive to androgens and it ends up with a completely wrong organization by opposing actions of hormones and sensory inputs.
Sensory processing for breasts should be homologous in males and females, so no way you can explain it. Visual clues? That's impossible for GD.

>>8611917
>it also explains why reassignment surgery resolves GD by decreasing sensitivity)
Decreasing sensitivity in what way? And what if you're wrong about this and sensitivity is not decreased?

>>8612020
This is anecdotal but of the post-SRS transwomen I've spoken to most said that they felt like they were even more sensitive down there after the surgery.

>>8612024
I'm post-SRS and feel more sensitive. So I figured I challenge the statement about decreased sensitivity.

>>8612020
The surgery necessary damages sensory nerves. Surgeons, of course, try to preserve tactile perception of the most sensitive parts (it's one their main tasks), but the area of "felt surface" will decrease.
These parts with preserved innervation can become more sensitive, yes.

>>8612046
But I don't have any numb or insensitive areas.

>>8612069
They don't need to be completely numb. It's easy to find papers that sensitivity is often smaller in patients after feminizing genitoplasty. Also, all I need for the hypothesis is that sensitity * area is smaller after surgery, then before, so that afferent input to the area of somatosensory cortex is decreased enough to cause reorganization.
Also, funny fact: your testicles are numb now, aren't they?

>>8612083
>your testicles are numb now,
You got me with that one. It's nice not being able to get that "kicked in the nuts" feeling anymore.

>>8612094
>It's nice not being able to get that "kicked in the nuts" feeling anymore.
Protrusions flapping around aren't very comfortable, in general. If my genitals were detachable, I would go without them most of time.

File: 1474641250233.gif (2MB, 697x764px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 697x764px

>>8593244
I've gotten most of these from people, including from family. I remind them I live in the United States of fucking America and if they don't like trannies and hate freedom, go to Saudi Arabia, you cunts. Your opinions are trash to me.

File: SCIENCE.gif (655KB, 300x168px) Image search: [Google]

655KB, 300x168px

The problem is that there's no definitive source of gender dysphoria. So, yes, you truly could just be faking it, for all we know. And holy shit that's a disturbing thought.

>>8612376
Not knowing the exact mechanisms behind dysphoria is not the same as not having any idea what's behind it. We have a clear direction. "Faking it" is out of the picture at this point.

>>8612464

The literature is all built on a heavily-gendered foundation of assumptions. Male brains "tend to" operate this way, to fulfill such and such a stereotyped gender-role function.

Well, what about when these brains don't operate like they tend to? Is the brain atypical, or is it a "woman's brain"? A woman's brain which, by the way, sometimes acts like a "man's brain". Would you believe that some men are born with pretty eyelashes, too? Would you believe that we're all a combination of "masculine" and "feminine" characteristics?

This is what I mean by "faking it". You don't get to quit being a man just because you're not a typical one.

>>8612580
Okay, so you don't understand what you're talking about. Thanks for saving me the time.

>>8612376

..so by your standards all people with any kind of mental illness could be 'faking it'?

Science is a lie I guess? Not knowing the exact mechanisms of how the brain functions means no proof of any kind is real? Much less that we don't even know how water works, not entirely, much less multiphase distributed bioelectric computing networks.

>>8612593

Wow I can tell you're totally right by the way you have no arguement.

>>8612600

Read my other post. The "proof" in all cases is a subjective interpretation of some feature of the brain.

>>8612652

What 'other post'. Link your shit el nino.

Cause your argument sounds antiscientific as fuck.

>>8612580
Then what does cause transsexuality?

Why are trans people's brains more more likely to be atypical towards the average or "tend to" of the other sex, even though that can't be enough to make them trans itself?

>>8612652
Your post doesn't even make a coherent point in light of the fact that the researchers didn't "choose" to call features male or female but found certain features that are strongly associated with being male or female. Gender roles aren't even a factor here.

>>8612676

Take a look at the one you replied to and scroll down.

Also, I'm not the one who needs evidence of anything here. It's trans people that make the gendered brain argument, which is nowhere near settled for the reasons I've outlined. I'm poking holes in YOUR evidence.

>>8612703

That's even more retarded than the one I responded to.

You're claiming that you understand the processes of the brain and therefore the reasons why people do things better than neuroscience, psychology and psychiatry combined. You're a fucking fruit loop.

>>8612700

>strongly associated with being male or female

Examine this logic. It's very flimsy.

Androgenic alopecia is strongly associated with being male. It's even called male pattern baldness. Have you never seen an old lady who's losing her hair? Is she a man now?

>>8612691

If you'd like me to speculate- I don't have the answers, I'm just playing an unmoved skeptic here- it seems like it's just atypical men who don't give themselves credit for being men due to social programming.

>>8612703
>It's trans people that make the gendered brain argument, which is nowhere near settled for the reasons I've outlined.
lmao

>>8612580
>You don't get to quit being a man just because you're not a typical one.
Why all the butthurt? I see this kind of sentiment a lot. Like it's some horrible crime to leave the "man club" which we were never really part of to begin with, and we have to be bullied about it. What's it to you?

>>8612730

Why are you asking the person who thinks his 'common sense' is stronger than scientific evidence? What about his opinion could possibly matter?

>>8612718

>
You're claiming that you understand the processes of the brain and therefore the reasons why people do things better than neuroscience, psychology and psychiatry combined.

lol. I'd really like to re-read the lines of mine which led you to make this statement.

Trust me, the gendered brain argument is big, and inconclusive. They'll admit they don't know either.

>>8612733
I'm trying to probe his psychology.

>>8612724
>Androgenic alopecia is strongly associated with being male. It's even called male pattern baldness. Have you never seen an old lady who's losing her hair? Is she a man now?
Are you for real? If a population of women with a certain condition suddenly showed a tendency to develop male-typical traits far, far more often than their peers, to the point where the bell curve distributions for most gendered traits of that group differed from the ones of women, you'd be remiss not suspect a biological, sex-related cause.

>>8612739

>there's scientific evidence for dysphoria as a medical condition

>B-but gendered brains and men with long eyelashes and m-muh common sense!

Protip: If researchers say that based on the evidence, a medical condition exists, it exists. Your protestations and moved goalposts don't make science wrong. They make you wrong. Pls stop wasting oxygen, we need that shit.

>>8612757

Do you really have nothing and no-one better to do?

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>>8612764
>wasting oxygen

>>8612768
Multitasking

>>8612764

This doesn't address my skepticism at all. I'm aware of the decisions medicine has made for helping trans people. It could still very well be a social disease.

>>8612805
>social disease
Biological factors are extremely important for development of GD.

>>8612730

I'm writing a novel with trans characters.

The temptation was to simply write you people based on how I saw you. Be objective. It's never been easier to gain access to people's lives over the internet. Never before have people ever been so able (or maybe even willing) to reveal themselves to complete strangers.

Unfortunately, the high-functioning mtfs have better things to do than blast their thoughts and feelings out onto the internet, so I'm left with you people. That's fine, I think you probably have a more interesting story to tell.

The literature I've encountered so far has been unhelpful. Either it's been written by people with poor access (Eugenides), people who really weren't writing about trans people (Woolf) or trans people who seemed inhibited from revealing the uglier parts of the experience. You know, canned theory, over-rationalization, disassociation. Nothing I'm interested in writing.

But, unfortunately, the author's feelings shape everything about his work. Your women are made of what you think of women, the world is as you see it, et cetera.

So what do I think of trans people? Are you self-loathing men? Are you tragically afflicted, bona fide women? Part of me tells me it's not important, but I came to storytelling because I wanted to tell the truth about how people are- people who've maybe never had their stories told, people with truly novel experiences.

For anyone waiting to call me a hack, I've already been torn apart in a million critique threads, so you may want to save yourself the keystrokes.

>>8612861
How can you tell the truth if you won't listen to it?

>>8612861
Your approach is flawed. You're too judgmental and unwilling to listen.

>>8612805

FYI, 'i'm skeptical' is not an argument. The accepted scientific consensus is the baseline state - you must actually present a challenge to it that doesn't consist of 'it might be <words you clearly don't understand the meanings of>'.

Let's start really small. Do you have any background in neuro, psych? Medical training or education of any kind? Can you correctly interpret the results of a study? Have you actually done any reading of actual studies? Are you aware of psychiatric terminology? Practice? Research practices? Do you have any inkling of the steps already taken to determine the type and status of the symptoms presented by different, unrelated people, in every country, for many decades (and going by hearsay, centuries at least)?

Do you even know the meaning of words like 'social disease' that you're throwing around?

This is really basic stuff for any writer. Research is the basis of any kind of writing, even incredibly frivolous self-obsessed crap like this sounds like.

>maybe the hormones are what's making you depressed

>Are you doing this because that girl wants you too?

And the most common and most irritating from my parents
>I don't care what you do with your life I'll still love you, but it's too hard to call you anything other than *birth name*

>>8612929
Argument from authority.

>>8612934

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

If you're arguing that the established scientific community is an 'illegitimate authority', then again, you're a fruit loop. Enjoy your conspiracy theory whatever.

>>8612861
Anon can we email? I'd like to offer my personal views and perhaps experiences if they would help and to hear about your characters if that's ok.

>>8612892
>>8612905

Yeah, my first instinct is to just believe you... but I've met some people that are just completely fucking loathe themselves and I have to stop and wonder after absorbing the things they say about themselves and other people.

I know that other people in the trans community feel the same, thus the whole 'trutrans' thing. There's a sense, even in trans people themselves- and who would know better?- that other trans people are faking it.

>>8612941

Thanks for the offer, but there's just too many angry people in this thread >>8612929
>>8612940

>>8612940
>rationalwiki

>>8612934
Is it an argument from authority to say that, if a doctor and a random unqualified person off the street both spoke of a complicated medical issue and contradicted one another, the doctor is probably right? We routinely trust the expertise of experts when it comes to subjects we are not experts in ourselves. That's why people go to doctors.

>>8612952
I can post a throwaway myself?

>>8612941
Not them but I think I've seen you in a few discussions before. Are you the polite Blanchard supporter?

>>8612934
>>8612963

this isn't me, btw, but he/she is right... I'm just trying to ignore this person now

>>8612978
I go to doctors when I'm ill, not when I'm reading or writing speculation.

Skepticism is not equivalent to taking medical advice from a person off the street. You're resorting to sophistry because you have no substance on your side.

>>8612944
On 4chan and other sites like it.. Consider what you'd think of Conservatives if you based your opinion off of /pol/.

>>8602461
How was your experience with the surgery and the results? I'm probably gonna go down that line eventually I'd like to know what it's like. That's assuming you are MTF like me

>>8612997
Your options are either 1) develop expertise yourself by becoming an expert or 2) rely on experts. If you do neither - and ignoring the science done so far is doing neither - then you're illogical.

Skepticism calls for rationality. Ignoring scientific consensus AND refusing to study the science yourself means your claims about it are based on nothing at all. It is rich of you to claim valuing scientific consensus is a logical fallacy then blame others for calling you out.

>>8612963

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority#Valid_forms

You're misusing logical fallacies after being called on moving goalposts. Can you be any more cliche?

>>8602604
ECT has been working for me, as has HRT. They are for treating two different but often related conditions.

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>>8612980

No, sorry. But thanks for your interest.

I actually had one trans girl I was writing to, but she stopped replying ;~;

And this really wasn't a conscious plan to seek input, I just came here to blurt out what I've been wrestling with. I'm stuck on the final third and there's just better ideas I want to get started on.

I'm gonna stop because this is really egotistical of me to go this far, thanks everyone for your replies.

>>8613020
Oh, stop that. It's fine as long as he properly advertises his writings as bullshit.

>>8613043

The chances of that given the extent of bullshit he's spouting in this thread being what, zero? A tenth of a percent?

I now feel like the sad dog in the OP

>>8613047
But he does...
>I'm reading or writing speculation.
It's just a polite way to describe bullshitting.

>>8612990
Oh wow. There's only one polite Blanchard supporter? I'm curious when you think you've seen me before, we could email? We could politely talk about Blanchard too.

>>8613037
I could fill in for her and try answering any questions you didn't get to ask her or want another opinion on. I don't want to tell you how to write, just show my thoughts and hear yours.

>>8613072
Forgive me if I've mislabeled your actual position. If you are who I think you are you've said it's unpopular before so I made a guess. You're the one collecting emails, often offering to use a throwaway, right?

>>8613087
Yes. I want to talk about these things and hear other people's thoughts and see what they think of mine, but it intimidates me when it isn't one to one because I'm frightened of being a recognizable poster.

>>8613130
Uh.. sorry about that then.

>>8613167
Don't worry. Hopefully you're especially astute. May I ask why you don't want to talk elsewhere about trans topics?

>>8613019
I know it's reddit, but this thread has some good information:
https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/5aonx0/srs_with_chett_vs_suporn/
I had mine done a long time ago by a now-retired surgeon. It was the older penile inversion. Scrotal inversion with penile tissue used for labia seems to be more common now.
I had a quick recovery. I was sitting up on day 3, walking day 4 and left the clinic on my own day 5 (surgery Monday, leave Friday). Two weeks after the surgery the packing material was removed from my vagina, and I went home after one more week. I went right back to school and work as soon as I got home. After another month pain was minimal.
I didn't have nerve damage and I have excellent sensitivity. No pain or infections. Sex is very pleasurable and comfortable, though I haven't had as much as I'd like.
The main issues are my sex drive has been fairly low since SRS, and it's harder to control my weight. Depth is 4 1/2-5" - about the same as my penis was. Also I never went back for a follow-up labiaplasty. That was considered optional and would have cost extra, but would be needed for the best appearance. I didn't want to spend the time or money, or risk nerve damage, and the current appearance isn't that bad, though it could use some tweaks. Some extra tissue was intentionally left so there'd be something to work with for a labiaplasty.
It's great not having to worry about tucking or bulges. I can't get the "kicked in the nuts" pain anymore. Not having dangly bits, not having anything to hide, and being comfortable seeing myself in a mirror are nice. Maintenance is fairly low at this point, basically dilating and douching once or twice a week.
I hope this helps.

>>8614596
>I have excellent sensitivity.
How do you know? Have you tested discrimination in every area before and after surgery?

>>8593244
Lots of love OP. You feelings are valid. I hope it gets better.

>>8615661
your lmao

>>8615634
>she doesn't regularly test her genital sensitivity
It's like you want a botched SRS!

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>>8613062
Das my pupper and she a good happy girl now she all grown up.

Which may as well be a parallel to how some of our transitions go given the time between pictures is like 6 years.

>>8615671
They want it botched so they fuel their memes.

>>8593244
>>No-one will ever love you
True, you faggot. Now kill yourself.

>>8616382
Cute doggo. How do you feel about how this thread evolved?

>ctrl+f "helicopter"
>ctrl+f "dolphin"
>0 results
You forgot a few of the basics OP

>>8616619
Tbh those two anons autistically spamming studies at eachother for a few days probs should have gotten a discord. I was half expecting Trent to join in and start spamming blogspot shit.

Also that one psych anon studying in Indonesia was pure cringe KEK. Sometimes I wonder how some people can be THAT invested in bad psychology and against trans people.

>>8616720
>tfw you're one of those autists
I just want to protect the vulnerable ;_;

>>8616720
>one psych anon studying in Indonesia
Who?

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>>8616731
This dude >>8602295

>Psych student at a research university
>Confuses transgenderism with gender dysphoria with mental illnesses needing treatment
>Completely gets the suicide statistic wrong by adding like 20% on top AND getting the circumstances wrong
>Goes into anecdotal evidence and when people mock him for anecdotes he gets defensive about how he doesnt need to write a dissertation then he doubles down on the anecdotes
>Advocates for remedies straight from the 50's and goes full edgy "psssh...nothing personnel" utilitarian at the end

I would laugh if he's that same anon who made this thread >>8600011 and got absolutely fucking shit on in the first reply then doubled down on the /pol/ tier logic LMAO.

>>8616727
???

>>8616748
>>8616731
Oh wait nvm it's Thailand.

>>8616749
Wherever the Blanchardian cancer spreads, I follow. Trent is dead. Now I just need to kill the idea.