why cant /lgbt/ just accept the fact that non binary people exist?

you can't get:

- non-binary hormone levels
- non-binary socialization
- non-binary gender roles
- non-binary dress
- non-binary speech

check m8 attention whores

Everyone accepts the existence of intersex, afaik, its just pretty rare.
Not all intersex people are trans. Some can be. It depends on if they identify with the same gender they were given at birth.

Identifying as a third gender is kind of culture specific. What is "gender"? That is something people are still defining and disagreeing about. Some people see gender and sex as the same (traditional view). Some see gender as being the sex of the brain. Some see gender as some other thing entirely, like how you act in society, or just whatever an individual wants it to be.

What is gender to you, OP?

>>8269898
>bisexual people
>gay as well as straight
>nonbinary people
>neither trans nor cis
See why you don't belong now?

>>8269904
>- non-binary hormone levels
Androgynous body.
>- non-binary socialization
Neither masculine nor feminine
>- non-binary gender roles
Mix of masculine and feminine.
>- non-binary dress
Androgynous dress.
>- non-binary speech
Androgynous speech.

>>8269923
actually, someone who identifies as bigender, both male and female, who is biologically male, is therefore trans and cis

checkmate faggot

>>8269898
umm thats just called being androgynous. Transsexualism is a real medical condition akin to being born intersex. Non binary literally means you are a snowflake who doesnt accept the binary. Nothing against it but stop saying you are fucking trans you are somthing else entirely and that is the fucking problem we have.

>>8269912
I see gender as you said, being defined by how we see ourselves therefore within our mind/brain and sex as our genitals. gender is a spectrum, it is not binary. sex isnt even binary bc of intersex people. gender is fluid and can change over time, it can be at two points simultaneously, it can be null, aka agender or gender neutral meaning in the middle between man/woman or femininity and masculinity.

>>8270009
that literally just called having a personality and since you lack one you try so hard to get attention by saying you are unique and are trans for being a special snowflake.

>>8270003
>transexualism
>intersex
when was this ever mentioned in the comment before? i am talking about being trans, as in transgender, which is defined as denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender does not correspond with their birth sex.
>androgynous
androgynous is a gender expression, meaning lack of or mix of masc/fem, not an identity you dumbfuck.
unless youre trying to argue that non binary is an identity in which your gender coreesponds to your birth sex, stop talking

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>>8270009

So something like pic related?
Yeah you obviously aren't alone, but many don't see gender that way. They like gender to be something more concrete/tangible and rooted in the body (either in the brain or in the genitals). Gender is what it is, and you can identify with it or not, without changing your gender. So I am a woman but I don't really identify with being a woman. It makes me no less a woman though.

This is a discussion that is going to be ongoing, and it likely won't be settled within our lifetimes, though I think your view is more popular on the left and will likely grow in the West and within the lgbt+ """"community"""".

>>8270009
Intersex people are always a mix of male and female traits, they don't grow Z chromosomes or binguses. Sex is still a binary.
Intersex people aren't your "gotcha"s and talking points, fuck off forever.

>>8270031
>so i am a woman but i dont really identify with being a woman. it makes me no less than a woman tho
could you elaborate some more? im not rly understanding what you mean?

>>8270009
unless you're some sort of biologically genderless homonculus or one in a trillion genetic aberration you're either male or female

just because you don't conform to certain gender stereotypes doesn't mean you get to make up some retarded category outside of male or female, or I might call myself "4chan shitposter who dresses like an autistic version of alan moore"-gender because hey that doesn't fit into a The Far Side-tier caricature of what a man acts like

>>8270049
>mix of male and female
exactly my point. intersex is not solely male or female, which is parallel to non binary not being solely a woman or man, aka cis people

>>8270050

I'm a woman.
I don't really identify as a woman. I was assigned it at birth and don't think about it beyond that. I have wondered at times if I am trans but decided that its bullshit anyway.
I am no less of a woman than someone who sits around identifying as a woman.

>>8270026
androgynous is a fucking gender expression when did i disagree to that? My problem is you thinking that transgender means something other than transsexualism. This is why normies hate transsexuals because all they see is special snowflakes saying they are transgender. And This is extremely evident since you did not even think of transgender correlating to transsexualism. You are the one who needs to stop talking and just admit your personality is a deplorable special snowflake who just wants brownie points for attention in real life.

>>8269993
But did they take steps to medically transition? Because that's what makes you trans, fucknut. TRANSitioning.

>>8270079
>>8270074
so youre basically arguing that you either have to have an SRS to be trans or be intersex. right makes sense.

>the deluded cishets have arrived with their invented genders
I knew this day would come.

>>8270067
how are these so-called nonbinary people not solely a man or woman, given that they're clearly undistinguishable from normal men or women from a medical perspective unlike intersex people?

The whole thing is so fucking schizophrenic and ridiculous to begin with, on one hand it's clearly some sort of desire to "just being themselves" but on the other hand they invent all these ridiculous categories to place themselves into! Like shit, you've replaced the "tyranny" of male and female with the tyranny of retarded cartoon genders! And what's the actual use of these genders, nobody knows. Men and women were created as social categories because males and females are generally good at different things due to whatever manner of genetic, developmental or hormonal differences that separate them, so if you take all the people with tendencies for A and drill cultural regulations into them while you take all the people with proclivities for B and drill another set of cultural rules into them, you'll have people who have trained according to their nature making up the body of your civilization, just like when school puts the brainy kids in STEM and the jocks in sports and artsy kids in art school and whatever, instead of making some halfway attempt at making everyone equal despite them not being so in the first place. What's the justification for nonbinary-ism besides letting the narcissism of retarded teenagers run free?

>>8269898
i would respect enby's if only it wasnt a fucking trend amongst ultra feminist sjw tumblrinas to claim to be nonbinary.
theres 53:47 ratio for mtfs to ftms but for nb's its 80% afab to 20% amabs. which shows its inflated because of those claiming to be nonbinary for a trend.

>>8270119
you make a good point
>just being themselves
we dislike having to conform to binary genders
>invent these rediculous categories
when you are defining yourself outside what usual people are, humans habe a tendency to make subcategories, you know, so that we can explain our identity to others. it makes it easier to talk about.
with your abalogy of Stem kids and art kids etc id argue that there would still be some jocks who are also good at stem, and some artsy kids that are good at math. humans don't always excel in one category and are lacking in all others, you can ne a mix

The way I see it masculinity and femininity are a polarity you can exist between or you can be a person who doesn't display distinctly gendered characteristics (but that itself wouldn't make you trans). I also feel like a lot of 'nonbinary trans' people I see would best be described as gender non conforming cis people if they don't intend to actually change their gender or sex characteristics

>>8270031
there is no way to 'do' gender that isn't either a combination of masculine and feminine traits or expressing traits of neither (not trans) and that's why this chart looks like snowflake nonsense. if there is I'd love to hear how it's possible, I could use a laugh

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Which one(s) are you?

>>8270141
i honestly dont get where ppl see tumblrinas arguing to be non binary, but if they were doing it for trends id call them out. amd i think the fact that most females identify as nb more than males jist has to do with males feeling like society puts pressure on them to be straight amd masculine, same sorta thing with gay men being afraid to come out bc guys will think theyre a wussy now

>>8270090

Part one

I think SRS is not a requirement. The requirement is feeling dysphoric about your body because your brain is telling you this isn't correct. In the case of transsexualism which started to be called transgenderism because idiots kept thinking the sexual part was related to sex as an attraction to the opposite sex. The brain says you are female but you have a male body. So you take HRT to alleviate the dysphoria and as you progress your body starts to look more and more like how it should have been born as. If you want SRS and you believe it will alleviate dysphoria even more then you do that as well.

The whole point of "transitioning" is this entire process it's not so instant like you think. It's a long process of healing for the brain to be able to cope with how it was born. You are either or there is no in between identity. The in between that you seem to think came from society still not understanding transgenderism because wtf is gender? Gender is the gender identity you were born with male brain or female brain not to say the two sexes have completely different brains it is a specific part of the brain that gives you differing perceptions on things and when your brain sees it's body it freaks the fuck out and creates this emotional response called dysphoria.

>>8270164
Part 2
Everything you think is related to gender identity is really just your personality and human expression not dysphoria. This is the biggest distinction that society has yet to understand. And is why you see all this political talk about trying to figure out what transsexuals are because in their eyes it makes them question on a subconcious level that they are not aware of what sex and gender really is but they cannot see that larger picture because they only share one perspective of that sex. I'm going to give you a hint its what being human really means and that is a scary thought for most people. Dealing with dysphoria allows you to broaden your own perspective on life because of all the emotional turmoil you have been through with dysphoria and if you can overcome dysphoria then you are able to open yourself to this. Good luck with your own human experience anon I hope you the best I really do.

>>8270090
That's the law in several countries and US states.

>>8270150
okay i can totally accept and respect that, you make a good point

>>8270150
>there is no way to 'do' gender that isn't either a combination of masculine and feminine traits or expressing traits of neither (not trans) and that's why this chart looks like snowflake nonsense. if there is I'd love to hear how it's possible, I could use a laugh

Some people see gender as purely being a way of self-identification. So if you identify as both man and woman, if you identify as neither a man nor a woman, if you identify as a third gender exclusive to you or some non-Western culture (where mtf are consider a gender separate from man or woman), etc.

>>8270146
>we dislike having to conform to binary genders
What exactly are you conforming to besides the word "man" and "woman"?

>with your abalogy of Stem kids and art kids etc id argue that there would still be some jocks who are also good at stem, and some artsy kids that are good at math. humans don't always excel in one category and are lacking in all others, you can ne a mix
jocks, nerds etc wasn't supposed to be the equivalent of genders, just an example of how the road to virtue is to take already existing traits and refine them, which is what I believe genders do, genealogically (while also balancing the tension between the two, like how women are supposed to not sleep around because then the males get upset and cause shitstorms and so on). This way gender roles have a purpose that serve society, but nonbinary genders seem to serve nobody.

>>8270171
some trans people cant afford an SRS, or dont want to have one and just will take hormones. that doesnt make them any less trans

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>>8269904

Brian Molko scrub

Pic related

>>8270187
It's why insurance is supposed to cover it but they don't because they think it doesn't help because that's what society has ignorantly said over the decades.

OP here, i think I'm not being clear enough as to explaining why i think non binary ppl exist. well first off i think im nb, heres how i figured that out:

>be me age 5
>have crush on girl
>realize I'm gay
>be me age 14
>dress tomboy
>act masculine
>wish i had short hair, no boobs, less hips
>can almost pass as guy
>find gf
>calls me 'strong' and 'manlike'
>kinda like it, but also don't
>still relate to being a girl somewhat
>but still get dysphoric about boobs & shit
>must be trans
>try he/him pronouns
>begin to pass
>don't like being called a man
>just doesn't feel right
>but im super masc?
>and i dress like a guy
>and i understand guys better/am friends w more
>be me a year ago
>so confused on what the fuck i am, gay or trans?
>feel more in between male/female or both at the same time, but can't explain it
>still am dysphoric about body
> realize i can be non binary
>try they/them
>like it

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>>8269898
Because it would force us to redefine dead people's gender post mortem after more than 72 years of calling them he or she in thousands of books and movies!

>>8270187
In several countries and US states it does.

Although the requirement for "surgery" means FFS or a mastectomy for FTMs counts too.

>>8270225
I would love to kiss that statue on the mustache or the top of his head and will always call him a HE no matter what.

>>8269945
Androgynous by definition abides by the gender binary.

Ambiguity doesn't mean there's another gender

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>>8270242
Ambiguity??? Can that be a 5-inch flaccid cock?

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>>8270224
you're a masculine woman who doesn't like being called a man or woman

just because you have issues relating to those things doesn't mean that there's any point in making up new genders

you are what you is

>>8270259
i wouldnt say that im making up new genders but rather claiming that gender includes between the binary and possibly outside of it, but thats another argument

>>8270267
look the only reason you are like this is because you thought you were trans and actually didn't understand what trans actually is so now you are left confused as to what you are. You are a fucking tomboy anon.

>>8270279
if I'm dysphoric about my body that has something to do with not being the gender I'm assigned at birth tho

>>8270249
Adolf was NOT a gender neutral name!!!

And he did NOT look like a gender neutral person!

>>8269898
They exist but they're such a smaller number of people that you can't expect it to get all the attention you think it might need

>>8270224
If I see you on the street I will only identify you as either male or female. Every person I met before you and will meet after you will fit into either of those cases.

If I interpret you as male and you identify as female and tell me, it is easy for me to correct myself. Same for the other way around.

If you identify as something other than male or female then I cannot comprehend it. There is nothing in the English language that is gendered outside of the binary. Gender is a social construct and all we are really talking about here is semantics. Anything outside of the gender binary simply isn't constructed in society. Perhaps you can have your multiple genders in your small groups of like-minded people but I am not one of those.

Hope that helps OP.

>>8270296
Please describe what you think dysphoria is to me anon.

>>8270267
>between the binary
anyone knows that a skinny twink artist is more feminine than a hairy 200 pound biker criminal, this is nothing new, which renders your rebellion against this traditional gender view pointless
>and possibly outside it
You mean like how the model of your bed is not determined by what gender you are? Or the food you eat? Or the color of your hair? You're not being revolutionary here, a trait or activity being genderless is old hat. I like taking walks in the forest, where's my new gender for that? What does it mean to be outside of the binary (which is here understood as a scale, or sets of scales for each trait you can come up with)? Am I outside of the binary if I'm a manly man who likes to knit? Am I outside of the binary if I'm a woman who play video games?

>>8270322
i get strong anxiety from aspects of my body and aspire to have a male like figure

>>8270623
So does every woman with 2 brain cells to rub together.

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Who in their right mind doesn't want to be more like the superior gender, if they wanted to be honest with themselves?

>>8270772
i am 100% if men were oppressed like women are and women were in power, id still aspire to have a male like figure. also notice i dont want to be a man, but have the body of a man. huge difference. ur not superior

>>8270772
I'm too broken and weak to be the superior gender.

>>8269898
because you've either got another x chromosome or a y chromosome
you're a man if you've got a y, a woman if it's another x. no amount of drugs will change that, it'll only make you look like a freak with genitalia that some doctor mangled to look like a cheap fabrication of another

>>8270623
yeah thats not what dysphoria is sorry.

>>8270224
you know anon, you can be a masculine female without having to make up genders

>>8269898
You can't be trans without the gender dysphoria. At the very least you have to have a deep seated sense that your birth sex is wrong, and living as your birth sex causes distress. It would be unusual to want to be no sex rather than the opposite sex, but there has to be dysphoria.

If you just don't like social gender norms and want to express yourself differently, but lack dysphoria, then no you are not trans.

>>8269898
>non binary people exist
They don't. Put them in prison hospitals at labor camps.

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>>8270161
Gender of the day

>>8272130
W = woman
F = female

Because "enbies" are mostly narcisstic cishet women claiming oppression/snowflake points.

neutrois transition is actually a thing (male to neutroi aka mtn female to neutrois ftn)

ngl tho my personal beef with a lot of nonbinary folks talking ab how they need to be acknowledged/accepted by the lgbt community is that like... it's similar to the ace discourse. no one's out there makin fuckin laws to oppress y'all. no one's out here fetishizing you or obsessing on porn over you guys or being gross, no one's out here threatening violence, fuckers dying. and i'm not saying that nb shit shouldn't be respected, but like? coming up in here and acting like you should be accepted/acknowledged feels a lot like you're appropriating marginalized people.

look. present however you want. be whoever you want, whether that is a masc-lookin femme, femme-leaning masc, overtly neutral, going back and forward, what the fuck ever you do YOU you know? i think the lgbt community is all ab challenging gender and shit. but. to come around and claim that you're dealing w the same shit that trans people are dealing with is bull shit. it's absolute bull shit.

>>8271910
Jeffree Star looks like a chick but identifies with being male he's cis but androgynous. What I dont get is the notion that men and women have to be either 100% masculine or feminine.. You can be a masculine women or a feminine guy it doesn't make you a different gender

>>8272281
clarification: unless you're actively transitioning/presenting in such a way or dealing w a lot of the specific social issues that binary transitioning people are, enbies claiming they're oppressed/marginalized is just complete horse shit and i don't want to see any of it. most everyone on this board knows that no one owes us SHIT, so many of us have had to fight and work through so much personal shit to even come to terms w our own transition, w ourselves. even /passing/ is a mess for most of us starting out... so the beef w nb people asserting they pronouns?? when binary trans people are already having fucking issues??? idk.

here's the thing. i really would like to see they pronouns used more. personally i use them best as i can in any dealing (unless i see someone refer to themself as he/she) but you have to be realistic to a degree, you know? the issues nb people are dealing with are not the same issues that trans people are dealing with (unless they're transitioning.)

like. real talk. personally i'm going for a nb presentation (ftm transition) for a LOT of the same reasons you said OP, though my boob dysphoria is on again off again in kinda extreme bursts. ultimately you don't need to be acknowledged as a core "term" within the lgbt community to still present how you want???? that's the fucking thing w nb people that just drives me NUTS, you can present however you want, be whoever you want and it needn't necessarily be a distinct gender identity...

>>8272294
No, people don't have to be totally masculine or feminine. The thing is that being gender nonconforming doesn't make one trans, having gender dysphoria does. It seems almost impossible for nontrans people to understand what gender dysphoria is. They seem to see it as mere gender nonconformity and don't get that dysphoria is something different and very deeply rooted. Being trans is seen as being a LARP, when the reality is that the LARP is a trans person trying to live as their birth sex.

>>8272420
I agree with you! I'm saying this nonbinary thing is getting outta hand I know trans people who are called transphobic for saying nonbinary/agender is basically cultural appropration of legitimate trans people

>>8269898
Non-binary has the same legitimacy as otherkin
Self-identification and self-awareness have their limits. How you feel about yourself may just be a result of immaturity and not who you are.
Have you ever met a mature non-binary person?

>>8272476
I agree too that the nonbinary thing is going too far. It trivializes being trans, confuses the issue, and totally misses the point. It's crazy trans people being called transphobic!

>>8272476
>>8272519
>>8272522

if a scientist like bill nye has legitimized non binary genders why isnt it being any less accepted as being trans?

>>8272581
Bill Nye is an engineer and an entertainer not a scientist. If someone wants to be gender nonconforming or call themselves nonbinary, fine, just don't claim that it's anything like being trans if there's no dysphoria involved. Also, gender dysphoria always seems to be binary. There may be some exceptions but trans people put a lot of effort into being binary, and those who can't pass well get very distressed about that. It's also important that medical treatment is necessary for trans people, which is not true for those without dysphoria.

>>8269912
basically this op. we do believe in gender being a spectrum, we just don't suck the shit covered dick that is the alphabet soup of gender pronouns and other shitty meaningless labels. the whole point of gender being a spectrum and non binary isn't that there is a rainbow of it, but rather that there are two successful niches and the individual apples that grow on them fall and roll randomly, some too far way from any tree, others too close to the opposite tree

>>8272581
>>8272702
this senpai
bill nye is a nuclear denier too, hes a fag

>>8270161
All these genders and they forget MTT and FTT. I'm offended.

>>8269898
>my gender isn't particularly important to me
>time to have a crisis of identity and cycle through 15 different pronouns

>>8269912
Intersex is a physical condition typically assigned at birth
Non-binary is snowflake autism
>look,at me im non-binary
>cater to my niche needs like..
Except we have gender neutral and thats all we need

>>8273762
>Intersex is a physical condition typically assigned at birth
WRONG

>>8269898
non-binary only exist as a religion, it doesn't exist biologically.

It's weird. I totally believe that trans people are the gender they say they are, but myself I kind of LIKE being seen as a boy attempting to be a woman. I prefer he/him pronouns but I still want to take hormones and crossdress.

Am I nonbinary or just AGP?

>>8274305
Do you have any gender dysphoria at all? Do you want to take hormones for looks or do you feel it's necessary medical treatment? I'd be very careful about taking hormones if you don't have gender dysphoria.

>>8275739
I absolutely have gender dysphoria. Hormones have done wonders for me mentally. I didn't want to be alive when i was on T.
I just never felt the need to identify as a woman

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I am a cis gay male and I accept non-binaries as part of the community :3

>>8275839
OK you do sound trans. I guess if you don't feel a need to transition and you're happy with what you're doing that's perfectly fine.

I don't subscribe to Blanchardism. I think a lot of what's called AGP is basically testosterone poisoning during puberty of a dysphoric brain. Once you stop the testosterone and get the estrogen levels up a lot of issues can resolve, though some of the effects of pubertal testosterone seem to be permanent.

>>8275999
Do you think T causes gynephilia too then?

>>8276064
I think it can. If my theory is right early transitioning should dramatically reduce AGP type behavior. I haven't really dug into research on this issue since I just came up with my theory a couple weeks ago.
For a normal nondysphoric cismale, pubertal testosterone is a good thing - their brains need it and want it. For a dysphoric birth male, testosterone seems to be highly toxic and causes distress and all kinds of psychological issues. It's possible that the ill effects of testosterone could manifest as fetishistic behavior. Since a dysphoric birth male brain is damaged by testosterone and helped by estrogens, shutting off the test and getting the estrogen levels up should help enormously with psychological issues, and cause fetishistic behavior to reduce or go away. I've read about cases of people who transition late and go from being at least partly gynephilic to being androphilic.
The HSTS brain might be less susceptible to testosterone for various reasons, or they may tend to have lower testosterone levels.

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>>8269898
you're a separate social movement away from transsexuality that is into body mods and hair dye because EVIL WHITE WESTERN SOCIETY IS EVIL OPPRESSIVE

you're basically modern day middle class punks

>>8269912
don't associate developmental conditions with a social trend, thats really gross dude