*There is evidence that the brains of pre-everything MTFs who

>>8190756
what do you think is going on then?

>>8190756
I thought both types only showed intermediate structural differences before cross-sex hormones? There honestly aren't enough tests of post-HRT trans women, the most famous one is just the old BSTc test, which had more striking results than the more recent tests of pre-HRT trans women, so I would assume the hormones do have some effect on brain structure.

And here's a study that actually found that, yeah, hormones basically feminize or masculinize the brain: http://www.eje-online.org/content/155/suppl_1/S107

>>8190756
why does it make you sad?

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>>8190845
Well think about it: cis lesbians are in the minority among cis women. So why should the majority of mtfs be attracted to women? Doesn't make sense. If they were the women they say they are, their proclivities should mirror those of cis women. OP's train of thought is the possibility that transbians (most of them anyway) are illegitimate. I don't believe that, but that's the idea.

This board is obsessed with two things: passing and legitimacy. They're both destructive. How do we know? Countless boymode posters who have lived for years mentally flagellating themselves. Every once in a while somebody posts that picture of a group of hons at a table eating dinner. And they're all smiling. Don't you want to smile? You are what you do. Those women accepted the cards they were dealt, and carried on. Who cares if you like women. Who cares if you didn't transition in the womb. Do you.

I had to learn the hard way, in disastrous relationship, that being "the man" didn't work for me. I was supposed to want the intimacy, but it was just friction with no emotional investment. Getting over the stigma is hard, but that requires knowing what's wrong in the first place. The inclination is to think you're normal. Maybe it's you, maybe it's them. Accepting that the entire relationship dynamic is the problem is one of those things you'd rather not consider. Because then you're an outcast tranny weirdo fuck up with a dating pool the size of a puddle. Nobody wants that. But once I had a man in my life, it was like a revelation. Everything made sense. Granted, women can be attractive, but romance? Forget it. Doesn't jive.

People are different though. I don't buy into the Blanchard stuff. The AGP hate is off the fucking chart around here. I mean we're trannies. I'm gonna assume our wiring is a bit off in the first place. Why should we be 1:1 examples of cis women. We're not. That's hard to deal with, but whatever. We deal. Most of us anyway.

>>8190813
I honestly have no idea and that's scary. It doesn't add up. None of the theories seem to fit everything we know.

>>8190823
>I thought both types only showed intermediate structural differences before cross-sex hormones?
I thought pre-HRT straight MTFs had brains with sex-intermediate features while pre-HRT gay MTFs did not? Did I get that wrong?
It's nice to know that HRT helps but the idea that my brain naturally looks mostly male is upsetting.

>>8190845
>The idea that my brain naturally looks mostly male is upsetting.

>>8190756
Really guys. Is nobody going to ask why Alex Jones is in a standoff with Kizuna Ai?

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>>8190976
not OP
i agree with alot of what you say that is why I am more inclined to say transsexualism is akin to being intersex. And I definitely agree with you about romance with a man and not women. Like yes I am attracted to both but the connection that I have with a man has more meaning to me than ending up with a woman. In other words I am super picky and have high expectations while dating a man but with a woman it's like your hot lets have sex k bye.

>>8190976
so are you saying i should repress to retain my acess to the gay dating pool?

>>8190976
This is a good post. I don't know how to respond to it but this is a good post.

>>8190992
Because the world is fundamentally absurd. Also that image represents my inner struggle.

>>8190756
The only study with bi and gynophillic was nontransitioning old men. They aren't trans, so it's not relevant at all, unless you're saying you're identical to a creepy old man who beats his wife and wears her clothes.

I asume if you controlled for 2d:4d and age and other phenotype you would probably see both types of Trans be similar.

>>8190992
I don't know who either of those people/characters are, so no.

>>8191003
>nontransitioning old men. They aren't trans
repressed trans people are trans people.

>who beats his wife
what

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>>8190994
>Like yes I am attracted to both but the connection that I have with a man has more meaning to me than ending up with a woman. In other words I am super picky and have high expectations while dating a man but with a woman it's like your hot lets have sex k bye.

fuck, are you me?

>>8190976
What makes romance for you so much better with men and worse with women? How would you describe your orientation?

>>8190995
I won't sugar coat it. While I do have a nice boyfriend, the dating game prior was a fucking slog that stretched on for years. Ask yourself this: is the gay dating pool really a dating pool? Seems more like a hookup pool. Maybe romance is hard to come by for anyone. And then how are you gonna have something genuine if you're living a lie? Setting yourself up for failure there.

>>8190992
I assumed it was supposed to be Alex Jones talking about how anime is a psyop with the goal of turning millenials into trannies.

>>8190992
I find it funnier out of context

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>>8191019
maybe? are you a passing post op sexy White/Asian tranny? if so lets fuck.

>>8191008
Not old men who are perfectly happy with not transitioning. If we do it like that then chasers who will never transition and voyures and other men who aren't trans all suddenly count. If you're the same as bad guys, then fine, I doubt everyone here is the same as all the boogie men you see on the police blotters.

You can't extrapolate anything from old men. And even if they did transition like stephoknee it's absurd to imagine they'll have anything in common with people who have a completely different phenotype.

>>8190980
>It's nice to know that HRT helps but the idea that my brain naturally looks mostly male is upsetting.
but that's just lack of hormones. like the rest of your body, transition feminizes it. you don't have a male brain, you have a pre-hrt brain. brains are masculinized or feminized, not male or female. and you can't get clocked by your brain anyway.

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>>8191034
I'm white, but also I'm a retard in boymode just about to come out of the closet in a bit and I live in south america, so it wasn't meant to be, anon.

>>8191042
>are perfectly happy with not transitioning
source

>who beats his wife
source

Why does it matter at all? Live your life the way you want to. Letting little insecurities eat you up, or using small things to boost your ego, neither of them matter much in the long run.

T. Lesbian who is into trans women

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>>8191048
are you remi? or her girlfriend? or do you know remi? dammit i want to be friends with her fuck! I wonder if she still checks /lgbt/ I wish she wasnt so focused on stealth and denial because it really prevents her from meeting valuable people.

>>8191068
Oh, nope sorry, I'm just the new soon-to-be-tranny from /femgen/ who thought she was just a femboy.

>>8191020
I'm romantically attracted to masculine people. That can take many forms, but it usually takes the form of a cis man. Being trans, I do keep an open mind. Years ago I went on a date with a butch woman. We didn't really hit it off, but that was something I definitely considered. Sexually, things open up a bit. That's never really been important to me though. I'd rather cuddle than get off. I don't have any porn on my computer. I've got a small selection of historical romance, for when I'm feeling kinda needy. The first question you asked is way too complicated to answer, but I will mention smell. Maybe because people live on their computers these days, it's something you don't think about. But once I was up close and personal with a man, whew. That drove me crazy.

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>>8190980
Well, here's the thing. First of all, gynephilic trans women were never directly compared with androphilic trans women in a single study. One of the studies of androphilic trans women used fMRI to test their responses when they were shown porn, compared to the responses of cis men controls. As far as I know, the closest thing to this that was ever done for gynephilic trans women, was the olfactory test. So we don't have an equivalent study for them. Btw, both the fMRI test of androphiles and the olfactory test of gynephiles, showed that the trans women's responses were closer to androphilic cis women controls.

The second study of androphilic trans women used DTI (diffusion tensor imaging) instead of MRI, and found that they had intermediate structural differences from both sets of controls, perhaps leaning towards female. The "equivalent" test for gynephiles, which I think you're referencing, used MRI instead of DTI, and found that the brains of (pre-HRT) gynephilic trans women had "sex-typical" differentiation from cis women controls, so basically the same as the cis men controls. HOWEVER, these cis women controls were NOT gynephilic, or at least, not exclusively. Furthermore, there were some structural differences from both sets of controls, although not exactly "intermediate" in the sense that they were "between male and female", but they were unique to the trans women in the study: "the gynephilic transsexuals displayed also singular features and differed from both control groups by having reduced thalamus and putamen volumes and elevated GM volumes in the right insular and inferior frontal cortex and an area covering the right angular gyrus".

So here's the rub. Androphilic and gynephilic trans women have never been directly compared with the same methodology, gynephilic trans women have never been directly compared to gynephilic cis women controls, and we don't have studies that specifically look at post-HRT gynephilic trans women.

>>8190813
>>8190823
>>8190845
>>8190976
>>8191003
>>8191055
>>8191102
Thank you. I feel better now.

>>8191102
Especially you for making the effort to write such a thorough response.

>>8191044
Oh and you too, sorry.

>>8191251
my english isnt the best for this type of scientific writing. Can you summarize the conclusion in simple english?

As far as i understood there were nor direct comparison between those different groups but does the gynephilic trans women brain has any similarities to cis women brains or are they more like cis men's?

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>>8191295
The anon was saying they were comparing lesbian trannies to heterosexual cis women when they should be comparing them to lesbian ciswomen.

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>>8191351
I see, thats quite disappointing.

>>8190756
I thought the BSTc stuff demonstrated differentiation regardless of orientation?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality#Brain_structure

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According to the most recent models, hormonal levels are important and various stages of brain development.
Androgens in utero can alter brain development, yes, but androgens during puberty are also going to have an effect.
Cis women don't have the same hormonal mix at key times that transwomen have, or at least the data point in that direction.
Therefore it stands to reason that the brains of transwomen are going to be different than the brains of cis women.
This doesn't mean they are "illegitimate" (whatever that is supposed to mean) it means they are different and so behaviors are going to be different.
I don't know why this is so upsetting to some people.
I guess you want to believe that you're just a cis woman brain stuck in a male body but being in a male body has consequences that make it different.
This doesn't mean that our feelings aren't real or that we are frauds.
It just means that we are complex human beings.
Will we ever become cis women?
Probably not.
Does this mean we should hate ourselves?
No.

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>>8191455
welp, had to delete my post. Should have read the whole study. They cite which patient had which sexual orientation. That means, yes, sexual orientation does not affect BSTc.
>Whether the transsexuals were male oriented (T1, T6), female oriented (T2, T3, T5), or both (T4) did not have any relationship with the neuron number of the BSTc.
>The same holds true for heterosexual and homosexual men.
>This shows that the BSTc number of somatostatin neurons is not related to sexual orientation
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-lookup/doi/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564

>>8191759
I guess thats why some people see trans as some type of intersex.

In the end, who cares? Does it matter if your brain is a little bit different? Do you really think everyones brain is similar? Would you exclude someone braindamaged or disabled because his brain doesnt fit the "standard"? I dont think so.
We cant become cis women and can cry all they because of it, or we can accept that its not possible and move on. What we can do is, we can live our lifes as a woman and can do as much as possible to alter our bodies to see ourselves and be seen by others as one.

Just live the life you want and try to be content with yourself, which is the most important thing of all.

>>8191455
Yeah but that gets in the way of some quality shitposting!

>>8191863
Technically "intersex" only refers to genetic disorders while gays and trannies are likely the results of epigenetics though it is pretty much as close as we have to an accurate descriptor.

>>8192354
>Technically "intersex" only refers to genetic disorders
[citation needed]

>>8192369
I don't care if you believe me, look it up if you want.
It's just a minor point of semantics.

>>8192376
>whereby an individual has male and female sex characteristics; the state of having the physical features of both sexes;

>>8192386
Nice dictionary web-search.
I mean its actual medical diagnostic meaning, it is used to refer to genetic disorders.

>>8192405
>"look it up if you want."
>*looks it up*
>"y-you looked it up wrong"
...

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>>8191759
so if you somehow alter the hormonal schedules of a cis women to somthing similiar to what a transwoman goes through is that cis women trans with a female identity? Just a thought ;p

>>8192354
fairly sure transsexuals have a biologic origin in the dna sequence. It's not just epigenetics.

>>8191759
You're so full of shit. I mean it's true that hormones influence the brain, but if it's true that trans women's brains and thinking patterns are fundamentally different from cis women's, then yes, we SHOULD rightfully hate ourselves.

>>8192405
[citation needed]

>>8191042
>chasers who will never transition
Why the fuck would we transition? Fucking a tranny doesn't mean you are one.

>>8192759
we don't deserve hate just for being different

>>8190756
Litterally none of the shit you just posted matters op. what matters is the following:
Do you have symptoms of dysphoria?
Are those symptoms something that can be treated with therapy alone?
If you answered yes and no, then you are trans, AGP and HSTS are both irrelevant.

as for brain scans, neurology is young so please stop buying into bullshit so early. It's okay to be a skeptic, but it's retarded with how little research on transfolk there is to make a definitive statment on the situation rather than a tentitive one.

>>8192341
OP here. I was just dumb and didn't know about this, only about the newer studies. I wasn't trying to shitpost. Sorry.

>>8193118
>as for brain scans, neurology is young so please stop buying into bullshit so early. It's okay to be a skeptic, but it's retarded with how little research on transfolk there is to make a definitive statment on the situation rather than a tentitive one.
Yeah you're right. It's just that I'm desperate for answers. Any answers.

>>8190756
Radical feminists will accept it. Go to them.

Materialists usually accept evidence-based science.

BTW
>There is evidence that the brains of pre-everything MTFs who are only attracted to men are partially feminized in their structure.
As with all gay men, which androphilic male transsexuals are.
>There's no such evidence in the case of such MTFs who are bi or gay.
You mean bi or straight. And the bi ones are probably only pseudobi due to AGP.

>>8191455
>>8191773
The BSTc is only dimorphic in adults, and the difference is probably caused by HRT.
https://sillyolme.wordpress.com/2010/02/28/the-incredable-shrinking-brain/

>>8195694
If radfems accepted science they wouldn't believe in blank-slatism. They'd acknowledge the impact of sex on personality and behavior.

>As with all gay men, which androphilic male transsexuals are.
Cite please?
>You mean bi or straight. And the bi ones are probably only pseudobi due to AGP.
AGP has no credence anymore.. who am I talking to?

>The BSTc is only dimorphic in adults, and the difference is probably caused by HRT.
Read the first paragraph of the wiki section that post links to.
>Several studies have found a correlation between gender identity and brain structure.[6] A first-of-its-kind study by Zhou et al. (1995) found that in a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a region which is known for sex and anxiety responses (and which is affected by prenatal androgens),[7] male-to-female trans women had a female-normal BSTc size (like cisgender women) and female-to-male trans men had a male-normal size. While the transsexuals studied had taken hormones, this was accounted for by including non-transsexual male and female controls who, for a variety of medical reasons, had experienced hormone reversal. The controls still had sizes typical for their gender. No relationship to sexual orientation was found.[8]

>>8195786
>If radfems accepted science they wouldn't believe in blank-slatism.
Which they don't.
>They'd acknowledge the impact of sex on personality and behavior.
Which they do.

https://rftbk.github.io/trans-db/radfem-opinions/male-violence-reason.html

>Cite please?
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex/
(DOI: 10.1073/pnas.0801566105)

>AGP has no credence anymore.. who am I talking to?
AGP can be observed out in the wild by anyone who has access to Google: >>8195669

>Read the first paragraph of the wiki section that post links to.
Read https://sillyolme.wordpress.com/2010/02/28/the-incredable-shrinking-brain/ and http://transcience-project.org/brain_sex.html
>A paper by Chung et al (2000)[3] studied how the volume of the BSTc varied with age in both male and female subjects. They found that the dimorphism was only prevalent in adulthood. Suggesting that the differences found by Zhou and Kruijver are not a cause of gender dysphoria but rather a result.
http://transcience-project.org/paperdex/papers/Chung2002.html

>>8195963
>Suggesting that the differences found by Zhou and Krujver are not a cause of gender dysphoria but rather a result.

It doesn't necessarily mean that at all. And even if it did, why would it matter? We're just looking for structural differences that support the notion that trans women are "legitimate" neurologically, we aren't necessarily looking for the root cause of transsexualism.

>>8195963
>Which they don't.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I've consistently heard TERFs describe themselves as gender abolitionists and deny that gendered behavior is in any way rooted in biology when it comes to anything but testosterone making men violent. The whole "gender is a system of control" bullshit. Some behavior is absolutely socialized, mind, but some of it is not.

>Article
Thanks. The researcher is reputable so I'll take your word for it.

>AGP
The term is innately linked to the typology, which holds no credence. If you mean that there is such a fetish then yes, but the idea that there are no bi transsexuals and that their attraction to men is universally pseudo-attraction is bunk.

>sillyolme
I'm sorry but she's a rando ex-computer scientist, not an expert. I'll follow the cites in the second link though. Thanks.

>>8195786
>AGP has no credence anymore..
Cite please?

>>8190756
Ok so i'm a gynephilic non transitioning AGP. How will "responding to pheremones in a feminized fashion" make me functionally different from cishet men in my day to day life?

>>8191003
Sorry honey those non transitioned old men are probably AGP gynophilies who were forced to live as men. Test is a helluva drug. I sure hope they didn't beat their wives but if they did I doubt you have proof.

>>8196064
I can't find WPATH's actual statement on the subject but it has rejected the typology because it lacks evidence. The best I found is a Wikipedia page referencing this lol sorry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanchard%27s_transsexualism_typology#Autogynephilia

It has been debunked like a million times by like a million people though so I'm not sure this will convince you? You probably already knew WPATH rejects it.

>>8195786
>>8195963
>>8196056
Can either of you explain what gendered behavior is biological and what is social/cultural? I read >>8170856 but it doesn't have clear answers, just everybody's opinions.

>>8196164
>WPATH's actual statement
...

>>8196252
???

>>8196290
They're not accepting it because WPATH is a transgender organization, and is therefore "biased".

>>8196521
It's a "transgender organization" in the same sense Ray Blanchard is a "transgender doctor". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Professional_Association_for_Transgender_Health

>>8195963
>https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex/
>The results showed that straight men had asymmetric brains, with the right hemisphere slightly larger – and the gay women also had this asymmetry. Gay men, meanwhile, had symmetrical brains like those of straight women.
Lesbians confirmed for straight men desu

>>8196056
>I've consistently heard TERFs describe themselves as gender abolitionists and deny that gendered behavior is in any way rooted in biology when it comes to anything but testosterone making men violent.
You were filtering what you've read through your prejudices.

The theory of gender as a system of control does not contradict with the notion of statistical differences between average women and men's personalities. The point is that:
- any existing differences are massively exaggerated
- many nonexistent differences are entirely made up
- differences are not neutrally observed, but actively enforced

>>8196164
WPATH is mainly an ideological organization, not a scientific one.

>>8196195
It's virtually impossible to find out what statistical differences in inborn personality there actually are across the sexes, because gender stereotyping literally starts before birth. (Too lazy to dig out study but TL;DR: mother more likely to go "oh look at what an active *boy* he is!!" when the baby kicks and the mother knows the baby to be male. Then there was studies on infant stereotyping (male infants' crying taken more seriously), then gendered toys begin, etc.)

There was a study though on thousands of kids that found links between childhood effeminacy in boys and later homosexuality. This, and learning that this is quite a thing in the LGBT community (i.e. lesbians very often being more stereotypically masculine and gay men often being more stereotypically feminine) was what changed my mind away a little from the "femininity and masculinity are *entirely* made up" position.

I.e. there's probably a few personality traits that we categorize under "feminine" which statistically correlate with being born with a female body, and vice versa for "masculine" traits and a male body, but the larger cultural constructions / total packages of femininity and masculinity are nevertheless tools of oppression. Femininity is ritualized submission; masculinity is ritualized sadism.

>>8196665
>- any existing differences are massively exaggerated
>- many nonexistent differences are entirely made up
>- differences are not neutrally observed, but actively enforced
I agree with that, sure. Call me crazy but I've never seen radfems accept the existence of meaningful sex/hormone-induced differences when it comes to personality, present company excluded.

>WPATH is mainly an ideological organization, not a scientific one.
I think that's unfair. It writes the standard of care used by the majority of specialists in the west. It's a professional organization held in esteem by the community. I'm not bringing up Trans Advocate here. The zeitgeist matches it.

>>8196621
Btw, this is what I meant when I pointed out that the tests never directly compared gynephilic trans women with gynephilic cis women. These tests are usually more a measure of sexuality than gender, so it makes sense that gynephilic trans women would have more "masculine" brains than androphilic cis women. If we used these tests as a measure of the "authenticity" of someone's gender, then we would have to keep cis lesbians out of women's restrooms, and let faggots inside.

>>8196665
I couldn't find a study about kicks during pregnancy. Do you remember anything that might help me search for it?

>Then there was studies on infant stereotyping (male infants' crying taken more seriously),
I looked this up. It's not that male infants' cries are taken more seriously, it's that men assume male infants are in worse distress when they perceive their cries to be feminine (when the cries of male and female infants don't have pitch differences).

>while female participants gave similar discomfort ratings to putative boys’ and putative girls’ cries, for lower-pitched variants male listeners rated putative boys’ cries as expressing more discomfort than putative girls’ cries
>This interaction effect may indicate that sex-stereotypical expectations that male babies should be lower-pitched than female babies lead male listeners to overestimate discomfort in unfamiliar boys’ cries.

Men and women both assume the sex of an infant on the pitch of his or her cry, but only men assume a "female" pitch from a male infant is a sign of greater distress.

But of course there may be other stereotypes men and women make based on pitch that weren't looked for in the study.

Worth noting that the difference was only noticed in reactions to artificially re-synthesized cries, not natural cries that sounded as they did when recorded. I don't know the significant of that though.

>>8191008
Men who thrived for over fifty years as men and love being on testosterone and don't transition are men not trans.

Cis men can have agp, they're usually abusers. If you say you're the same as a sex predator, then fine, but I doubt everyone else here is.
>>8196102
This makes you a likely predator and abuser. A bad person. We need to keep creeps like you away from others.
You should leave, this site isn't for straight men or predators like you.

>>8196102
Namely because you're a man and possible future hon and most others aren't the same as you. So it's apples and oranges.

>>8196979
desu i only know one hon who transitioned at 65 or something, and the job they did? consultant gynecologist. a trans woman doing that every day would be torture. but for a predatory fetishist... heaven and enough to eventually turn. when your job is staring up vaginas and sometimes removing wombs. ugh im gonna be sick

>>8196979
>Cis men can have agp, they're usually abusers.
[citation needed]

>>8197030
See >>8197029

Also, those old men they looked at in that study had massive libidos and neurological stuff associated with that.

I don't think they're reflective of most of the trans "agp" here though. They're completely diferen't beasts after all.

>>8197090
If anything having that job where people would be extremely sensitive to any abuse proves they aren't an abuser.

>>8195694
>and the difference is probably caused by HRT.
you did not read the study, did you?

>>8192741
There could be, even just something like a predisposition, but we haven't discovered it yet.

>>8196521
>I'm not saying it's a liberal marxist sjw jewish conspiracy but.. IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!1!!!!1

>>8197030
So can women but if you mention that people get triggered because it's only acceptable to pathologise male sexuality these days.

>>8196979
Your probably talking about boomer hons. Do you have any idea what sorta of transphobic world they would of grown up in? They'd be scared shitless to transition if they even knew they could.

They thrive on T because they're gynephile males who were pushed to be masculine men in a male centric society.

I'm a gyandromorphile I won't deny, i'd give a qt transgirl some loving, but I'm AGP therefore technically trans, I just live as a straight man. I originally got into /tttt/ as a way of dealing with my gender dysphoria. Just because I've gotten used to living as a man, doesn't mean I wouldn't of lived as a woman when I was young if I was given the choice in a supportive environment.

>>8197090
They're probably the alpha extrovert AGP type whereas 4chan gets the beta introvert AGPs.

>>8199948
Could AGP faggots please leave this thread? Its about discussing legitimate science, studies and research. Thank you.

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>>8198196
regardless of whether that anon has, i have and i agree with them. the bstc study's '''''''control''''''' for hrt was a total failure, with the cross-sex hormone levels of the cis people with endocrinological tumours not being comparable to those of the trans people. see lawrence's critique:
http://www.annelawrence.com/brain-sex_critique.html
>>8196102
fwiw the 'pheremones' studies were also bullshit
humans do not produce pheremones and only have vestigial nonfunctional sensors for them, this is a noncontroversial and accepted finding
also, even if they existed, why would *gynephilic* women (cis or trans) respond to male pheremones?
>>8196830
>If we used these tests as a measure of the "authenticity" of someone's gender, then we would have to keep cis lesbians out of women's restrooms, and let faggots inside
yes, which is why the 'trannies should be accepted because brain sex' meme needs to die and people need to accept the typology
however, we know lesbians and straight men do not have identical brains, because people attracted to their natal sex look about the same on a brain scan whether they're cis or trans and straight trans people are very distinguishable from the cis equivalent (just a lot closer to it than they are their natal sex)
due to double standards, the opposite sex traits are highlighted in studies of homosexuals and the natal sex ones in studies of transsexuals

>>8200229
>people need to accept the typology
>all of these other studies are bullshit though
trent pls
The "pheromone" study (which, if you read it, is not exactly that) still has more evidence for it than the typology does and less evidence against it than the typology does. Maybe this has something to do with it examining physical phenomena via empiric tools..

>however, we know lesbians and straight men do not have identical brains, because people attracted to their natal sex look about the same on a brain scan whether they're cis or trans and straight trans people are very distinguishable from the cis equivalent (just a lot closer to it than they are their natal sex)
Okay so
Cis gay men are female-shifted and cis lesbian women are male-shifted.
We know that prolonged exposure to hormones further shifts the brain in the direction of a certain sex.
Would the brain of a cis straight man look significantly different from the brain of a gynephilic pre-everything trans FTM if the cis man was made to take female hormones for a lengthy period? That is, is the brain of such an FTM just the brain of a straight man shifted toward femininity via prolonged exposure to estrogen?

If overall structure is primarily a factor of orientation, then it could be that identity resides elsewhere (as shown by the dimorphism found in the stalk and so on).

>>8199948
So you aren't trans, just a guy with a crazy fettish and you aren't comparable because you're phenotypically something different.

You shouldn't even be here, your coming here for sex and suggesting you are anything like us is nauseating.
>They're probably the alpha extrovert
You're even coming up with names for your abusers.

You have a lot in common with the men in prison. Those are your alpha and beta groups.

>>8199948
>t I'm AGP therefore technically trans
I hate how there's now creepy cis men and chasers now thinking this. It's like we gave a blank check to every bad guy to come in here and pretend.

>>8201047
>>8201083
RV chan I wish I could give you a hug you seriously need one. Some AGPs are more masculine and less dysphoric. Doesn't make them a bad person.

Also if chasers didn't exist, who would have sex with androphile trannies? Certainly not straight men that's for sure.

>>8202165
Gay/bi men would. And We don't need this person talking about how much he's exactly like us.

>>8190756
That's because MtFs are just gay men, and gay men have partly feminized brains.

>>8200229

>fwiw the 'pheremones' studies were also bullshit
>humans do not produce pheremones and only have vestigial nonfunctional sensors for them, this is a noncontroversial and accepted finding
>also, even if they existed, why would *gynephilic* women (cis or trans) respond to male pheremones?

Then what were the subjects responding to? Also, professor Robert Sapolsky of Stanford mentions in one of his lectures you can find on YouTube that in the past when animal products were used in the production of fragrances, that breakdown products of sex hormones from those animals added to the appeal of the scent. The ironic thing is that the scents are then only appealing to the people meant to purchase them, not to the people you wear them for. As in, a heterosexual woman would like a perfume for its testosterone breakdown products and she would buy it. She applies it to herself and no heterosexual man likes the scent because it comes across subconsciously as the scent of a male. But if the perfume had been made from estrogen breakdown products to attract men, she wouldn't have bought it because she wouldn't have found it pleasant. My understanding is that now the chemicals are just synthetic imitations of those byproducts, but the same principle exists.

>>8191092
Thank you for sharing this. I feel much the same way about masculine people and its nice to hear someone else express this. Also because im shallow, tall people. Tall good smelling people.

>>8202184
Bi men? Definitely, but gay men? Kek. If they happen to have a straight fetish there is only one type of straight man mentally ill enough to sleep with a tranny. :)

>>8202184
>how much he's exactly like us
But (s)he is.

>>8202391
why?

>>8200229
The structural differences are not necessarily caused by the HRT, they could also be caused by the sex-atypical gender identification itself, or by the same third factor that causes the gender dysphoria.

>however, we know lesbians and straight men do not have identical brains,

Yes, but according to your metric of the brain scans, they have "more masculine" brains than either androphilic cis men or trans women.

>>8200229

Adding on to >>8202273, you could say even gynephillic women need to be able to detect male scents for a similar reason to why Kate Brown said that cis and (I think it was gynephillic) trans women have a similar ease in identifying male voices vs female voices. As a matter of social survival. A pheromone isn't just for displaying reproductive ability, but also social rank. A female who isn't aware she's dealing with a high-ranking, aggressive male is either dead meat or rape bait. Whether the scent arouses her would be dependent on whether she's fertile at the moment and possibly some other portion of the brain which would vary depending on whether the female is androphillic or gynephillic. Or maybe pseudo bisexuality isn't so pseudo after all.

>>8202516
>Or maybe pseudo bisexuality isn't so pseudo after all.

As a PsBi myself, I definitely react way more to male pheromones than I do their actual physical attractiveness or lack thereof, I think the pheromone thing is kind of a separate process from actually being attracted to somebody. It probably has an effect on whether you would sleep with someone, but not so much on whether you would actually pursue a relationship with them.

>>8200229
THB the Savick study with gynophillic was terribly uncontrolled too. It comprised only old non transitioning cis agp. They aren't comparable to other trans that were used in those studies you say are flawed.

You can't extrapolate anything from cis men, if they had controlled for 2d4d and other status that would make them trans, they would not be able to replicate.

>>8202554
They probably thought AGP is AGP. I don't think old AGP non transitioners are truly cismen, although they end up larping as them pretty good. I do agree that you can't compare them to younger AGPs.

>>8202534
>As a PsBi myself,
What's it like?

>>8206613
What are the differences between younger and older AGPs?

>>8206686
Why is 4chan the only online community obsessed and supporting off AGP and Blanchards theory of it? The only other places taking it for serious I saw were lgbt hating sites like fundamental cristian organization, blogs of /pol/tards and the like.

>>8206987
AGP was used as a generic insult quite a lot in the first place, which made this board a fertile ground once somebody obsessed with spreading the gospel of typology came.

>>8207036
>A substantial amount of the people pushing AGP are just trolls with minimal understanding of it who use it as a bludgeon to try and delegitimize trans people.
That's why redpilling them on the typology is important.

>>8207053
>attack AGPs for being AGP
>they appreciate it when they discover AGP isn't a bad thing after all
Makes sense.

>>8207075
What did you discover?

>>8207156
>they appreciate it when they discover AGP isn't a bad thing after all
While also being fed tons of blanchardian bullshit, it's kinda sad really.

File: april 2017 political compass.png (17KB, 480x400px) Image search: [Google]

17KB, 480x400px

>>8200318
your theory is actually pretty interesting and i can't think of anything that disproves it as such. we're still discovering the neurological correlates of transsexualism, and there's a lot more to learn.
>>8202503
structural differences being heavily influenced by hormones is one of the most established things -- trans people see major neuroanatomical changes in just the first few months of hormone therapy. i wouldn't be surprised as such if there are brain differences far more common in people who transition than people who don't (note that these are not exact synonyms for 'trans' and 'cis') that are etiology-neutral, but i greatly doubt they would be in sexually dimorphic regions, and the studies we have on gynephilic trans women suggst that's accurate.
>>8202554
rv-chan, the fact you know agps who are very good and kind people who suffer from transsexualism means the solution is 'get rid of bizarre anti-late transitioner attitudes', not 'keep up the attitudes for a narrower cross-section of humanity'
>>8207036
hahahahaha
nice psychoanalysis m8 but pic related is my political compass and when i came out several years ago i was even further left (although i seem to be slowly becoming a libertarian)

>>8207195
>although i seem to be slowly becoming a libertarian
ahh, you have a way to go yet

File: may 2017 political compass.png (17KB, 480x400px) Image search: [Google]

17KB, 480x400px

>>8207212
i took the test again to get an updated one
it's been pretty sudden, i've just found myself going 'holy shit i thought we needed to smash the state for that but we could do it with the free market instead' over and over again for the past few days

>>8207235
>>8207235
good progress, keep it up. but tests don't cover everything; people can be in the bottom-right corner on paper without being anywhere close in their real views

>>8206613
The problem is they end up observing old Cis men with what likely was very low 2d4d I bet none of that would hold with younger trans with high 2d4d

>>8207195
That's exactly why it's inconceivable to suggest the people here, who never were burly aggressive men and never had the tendencies are the same as old nontransitioning hypermasc men. The problem is your theory was party based off observing Hetero Cis men when it's ridiculous to assume they're the same in any of the phenotype as trans.

>>8207164
Not an argument.

>>8207167
Maybe ask yourself why what you say about AGP instead doesn't get believed.

>>8207318
i think a neuroanatomical study that controls for 2d:4d would be interesting enough that i want to perform it despite having absolutely no study-performing resources, but i don't think the conclusions would look the way you think; specifically, i doubt there would be statistically significant differences between gynephilic trans women and gynephilic cis men with equivalent 2d:4d. a perusal of sites like susan's place that have large late-transitioning populations also have a lot of people talking about 2d:4d ratio as an indicator for transsexualism, which strongly implies the high rate of feminized ratios in agp-dominant trans communities is selection bias (trans girl with masc ratios don't share them).

>>8206686
Older AGPs probably have more masculinized brains. This is due to decades of T exposure. I suspect boomers were more high T in their youth than their children, so their brains will probably be even further masculinized.

Other than that old AGPs tend to emulate an outdated version of femininity while young ones are more modern.

>>8209522
How do the more masculinized brains affect them? Why do you think boomers were higher T?

What is the emulation of a modern version of femininity like?

>>8209552
>Why do you think boomers were higher T?

confirmation bias
and pseudo-estrogens in the environment

>>8209552
I'm guessing the more masculinized brains causes the extremely unfeminine honish behavior they're known for.

Just by looking at photos of young boomers vs young millennials i've noticed a pattern of more masculinization. I suspect it could be due to endocrine disruptors and psychological factors. Boomers grew up in an environment where masculinity was strongly encouraged and praised.

By modern femininity I mean dressing and acting like young women do nowadays. So tunics, yoga pants, feminist, grrrl power, less ritualized submission etc.

>>8192354
>Technically "intersex" only refers to genetic disorders
False, some intresex people are that way because the target sex of their body changed during gonad and genital development.

>>8192741
Altering hormones during fetal development in rats has generated transgender rats.

>>8210119
http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v18/n5/full/nn.3988.html
This is a recent one. The original was quite awhile ago, and made male rats act female.

>>8210338
They could be GNC gay, not trans.

>>8210357
A gay rat would try to mount other male rates.

>>8206987
They don't even really follow blanchard, most of them are obviously painfully ignorant of anything that he or his research actually showed.

4chan has latched onto it as a shitposting meme and have twisted and spread it as such. Thus the whole tru-trans/fake-trans shit that they made up but is the most common interpretation around here.

>>8210587
>blanchard
>research

he doesn't do research, he just talks out of his ass and begs to be noticed

>>8210587
>They don't even really follow blanchard, most of them are obviously painfully ignorant of anything that he or his research actually showed.
Yeah let's hear some examples or you're full of shit.

>>8209722
>So tunics, yoga pants, feminist, grrrl power, less ritualized submission etc.
modern agps can be pretty ritually subby too

>>8210784
Hot.

>>8210633
delet this