>parents will disown their children because of sexual orientation

>>8109770
It's also kinda fucked up that this board routinely makes fun of what are basically girls who have a debilitating congenital disorder, people do stupid messed-up things for stupid messed-up reasons.... Doesn't make it right, but it's just the world we live in sadly.

>>8109778
Are you literally referring to transsexuals as "girls with a congenital disorder"?

Are you retarded?

>>8109786
Yes, that's basically what's going on there, I'm tired of arguing with you in every thread so please don't even start with me, it's not even 6 AM and I need McDonald's breakfast badly.

>>8109770
it's funny how the reason gays are biologically inappropriate is mainly that they don't breed, but then people attempt to cuck themselves out of the gene pool by abandoning their own offspring

>>8109791
If you eat McDonald's for breakfast that explains how you can be so braindead.

Christ, calling transsexuals "girls with a congenital disorder" is one of the most fucked up Orwellian tricks I've ever heard of.

Masculinist bullies calling feminine boys "girls" is at least a well-known and well-understood phenomenon, but this is taking it to a new level.

>>8109786
That's what they are tho???

When and if me and my husband have kids, we'll accept them no matter if they're gay straight bi (obviously, would be pretty funny if we didn't considering we are).

But trans? No way. We honestly do not have any reason to believe that gender dysphoria is not a product of environment. If there were a way to physically diagnose someone as transgender sure, but until then we consider it made up.

>>8109812
That sounds pretty fucking shitty.

>>8109821
I see absolutely no physical evidence for it.

>>8109809
>If you eat McDonald's for breakfast that explains how you can be so braindead.
She took the bait.

>>8109829

You should probably get your eyes checked before you end up being one of those 50 year old divorced couples with a disowned trans child and no-one to take care of your terminally ill ass at retirement age.

>>8109811
As much as I'm the Queen of England, sure.

>>8109830
>I was only pretending to be retarded.

He BTW.

>>8109840
>no physical way to diagnose someone as transgender

Huh, I can prove my sexuality. You can't prove your gender is anything but something you made up.

>>8109809
>Masculinist bullies calling feminine boys "girls" is at least a well-known and well-understood phenomenon, but this is taking it to a new level.

Wait, how are those two things even comparable? Trans women WANT to be called girls.

>>8109846
How do you physically diagnose your sexuality? With brain studies that are just as flimsy as the ones we have? "Born this way" is a meme friendo.

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>>8109846
>You can't prove your gender is anything but something you made up.
>brain patterns, hormone levels, childhood behavior, mental response to treatment

>>8109862

Hormone levels and responses to treatment are made up by the /lgbt/ community to astroturf and advance their liberal agenda.

>>8109864
>liberal agenda
Back to >>>/pol/ with you, alt-righter!

>>8109864
How would you explain people with severe depression being essentially cured by hormone treatment, then?

>>8109864
>liberal agenda
>People would modificate their bodies and give themselves depression just because of dumb politics
yeah that sounds super likely

>>8109846
I can prove my gender by feeling good living like a girl just like you can prove your sexuality by sucking dick/vagoo
It's literally the same

>>8109849
A feminine boy wanting to be called a girl doesn't make him a girl any more than a bully calling him a girl makes him one.

>>8109904
>living like a girl
*Living the patriarchy's stereotype of how a girl is supposed to live.

A materially real, culturally independent definition of "living like a girl" might be "having periods, getting pregnant, giving birth," none of which a transgender male person does, because he is not a girl. Wearing feminine clothes and behaving stereotypically feminine is not "living like a girl." It's living like a stereotypically feminine person.

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>>8110023
>using the patriarchy as an unironic argument

>>8109770

>parents will disown their children because of sexual orientation or gender identity

Many of them aren`t religious, they just wanted their children to be normal - there is nothing wrong in that.

>>8110023
>A materially real, culturally independent definition of "living like a girl" might be
Looking like one and being treated by others as such.

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>>8110023
>if you don't get pregnant you aren't a girl

>>8110049
>there is nothing wrong in that.
There's something very wrong with that. You would think our biology would make parents prioritize their kids above all else regardless of what, but apparently not.

>>8110049
>there is nothing wrong with hurting your kids because you can't accept they are ill

really makes me think

>>8110023
>might be "having periods, getting pregnant, giving birth,
So cis girls with medical issues that make those impossible aren't living like a girl?

>>8110074
>You would think our biology would make parents prioritize their kids above all else regardless of what, but apparently not.
In a completely immoral, emotionless, fucked up way it does make sense, why waste resources on somebody who won't reproduce.

>>8110062
>Looking like one and being treated by others as such.
"Girl: a person who looks like and is treated like a girl."

This is a circular definition, and as such has no meaning.

>>8110070
>>8110084
I knew someone would do this. It shows that you're not arguing in good faith, because I've carefully chosen my wording such that someone couldn't make this argument in good faith:

>[...] culturally independent definition of "living like a girl" might be "having periods, getting pregnant, giving birth," [...]

>[...] MIGHT BE [...]

There are very few things a girl can do that a boy can't: have periods, get pregnant, give birth.

There are even fewer things a boy can do that a girl can't: inseminate a girl.

So "living like a girl" or "living like a boy" can only be defined by these things related to reproduction. Absolutely everything else, both a girl and a boy can do in life, therefore it cannot be categorized as "living like a girl" or "living like a boy" unless it concerns reproduction.

>>8110095
Sure, but if we lived like robots we could also sleep in a box and eat nutrition goop.

>>8110118
>Absolutely everything else, both a girl and a boy can do in life, therefore it cannot be categorized as "living like a girl" or "living like a boy" unless it concerns reproduction.
We don't live in a completely gender neutral society though, so your point is pretty redundant.
Every trans person knows they're not biologically their gender, that's where the pain comes from, and that's what they're trying to mend by hiding it.

>>8109770

Religion is more important than anything else. It makes sense that it would take precedence over more worldly affections.

>>8110118
>if you call me out on my faulty argument you are not arguing in good faith

No, that's not how it works.

>>8109770
Would you disown your child if he turned to be a perverted psycho killer coprophile and a foreign spy at the same time, having no remorse for that, and it became known by everyone around you?

Well, religious fanatics see homosexuality like this. Sad!

>>8110131
>Religion is more important than anything else.
Why and how?
We are biologically engineered to protect and prioritize our offspring over ourselves, this instinct should be stronger than external influences.

>>8110118
>So "living like a girl" or "living like a boy" can only be defined by these things related to reproduction
Or you could define by what it actually means - being perceived and interacted with as a girl/boy.

>>8110153

The soul imparted unto Man by God is even more fundamental than physical biological prerogatives.

>>8110180
[scientific citation needed]

>>8109770
I think the story is overblown that parents disown or kick out their children. Not to say it never happens or that there is never any negative reactions from parents to people coming out but if it occurs it is usually something like a palpable sense of disappointment and nothing more.

I feel like some people in the lgbt community want feel and encourage a victim mentality.

>>8110127
>We don't live in a completely gender neutral society though
Right, we live in a sexist society in which girls and boys are forced to live certain ways.
Now some boys live the way girls are otherwise forced to live and announce that this makes them girls, and some girls live in ways boys are otherwise forced to live and say it makes them boys.

How fucked up is that?

>>8110140
I've shown you there was no faulty argument to begin with. I've chosen my wording carefully such that someone carefully reading my post would see that I'm careful not to make the mistake you claim I've made.

You're fighting a straw man because you can't counter the actual argument.

>>8110222
>Now some boys live the way girls are otherwise forced to live and announce that this makes them girls, and some girls live in ways boys are otherwise forced to live and say it makes them boys.
You really don't get this transgender thing, do you?

>>8110198
>I feel like some people in the lgbt community want feel and encourage a victim mentality.
I sure hope this, but I keep hearing stories.

>>8110159
"Girl: someone perceived as and interacted with as a girl."

This is a circular definition and as such has no meaning.

The definition of a word cannot refer to the word.

Let's say I've defined a new word, "foobar," and am trying to teach you what it means:

"A foobar is something which people perceive as a foobar and interact with the way one would interact with a foobar."

Do you know understand what a "foobar" is? No? Makes you wonder.

>>8110232
I do get it very well. I'm fully aware that there's a gazillion different definitions of "transgender". The one that was being argued in this thread is "living like a girl" / "living like a boy" so that's the one I've responded to.

Provide a different one and I'll respond to that.

>>8110239
>"Girl: someone perceived as and interacted with as a human female."
Better?

>>8110222
>we live in a sexist society in which girls and boys are forced to live certain ways.
Do you think that AMABs and AFABs ought to be able to live in any way the others can without being judged according to their assigned gender?

Because that would mean no more female privilege for women.

>>8110250
>"Girl: someone perceived as and interacted with as a girl."
You're strawmanning. Nobody is defining a girl as such, the person who mentioned it first simply said he feels better that way >>8109904

>>8110250
>Provide a different one and I'll respond to that.
How about crippling dysphoria over your sex characteristics?

>>8110234
Most of what I've heard and experienced has been with gay guys so others mileage may vary, but most say nothing happened coming out or it was relatively benign. Parents mostly said "yeah we always figured." Or they would ask stupid questions.

Now I have heard horror stories, but more than once someone who talked about how their parents beat them and physically threw them out of the house, let slip several months later how they were going to visit their parents for the holidays or a birthday. Now it is possible they reconciled and I didnt want to press them, but my gut reaction was that they were lying earlier or atleast vastly exaggerating.

>>8110255
Yes, better. And also wrong. If I carefully changed my appearance and mannerisms to convince everyone that I'm Italian, I still wouldn't literally be Italian, as I have no Italian heritage and have literally never been to the country. I would simply be fooling people.

>>8110256
>Do you think that [males] and [females] ought to be able to live in any way the others can without being judged according to their [sex]?
Yes.

>female privilege
Oh god, you're literally an MRA? That's too much below the level I'm willing to go down.

>>8110270
>Nobody is defining a girl as such
Yes they are. Read the thread.

>>8110279
That would be a neurological or psychological disorder that may be cured with counseling, hormone therapy, or surgery, depending on its severity and how the patient responds to the different approaches. Why should such a patient be considered a member of the other sex, though?

>>8109770
The only purpose that any biological entity has is to reproduce and pass on its genes. Humans are no different in this regard than dogs or bacteria, and in the end our goals and priorities are the same. Religion is a social construct made mostly to lead the human herd towards optimal reproduction ("be fruitful and multiply"), hence its big emphasis on family, marriage, and shaming non-reproductive sex. Parents will freely disregard young who they can tell are sexually non-reproductive (LGBT) as these young are essentially dead weight who won't serve any purpose. That's why they disown their children and say things like you're not my son/daughter, I don't have a son/daughter, they are casting aside the failed and useless ones. Like if you reach for a pen to write something and it breaks, do you coddle it, or do you toss it to the garbage and reach for another pen? If you consider that any animal's only goal is to reproduce and bear young who will also continue to reproduce, it's actually not fucked up at all and completely logical.

>>8110290
>Why should such a patient be considered a member of the other sex, though?
Because it's part of the treatment you suggested.

>>8110290
>Yes.
Cool. No more quotas, no cis women only spaces, no complaining about the pay gap lie, no female scholarships, no trans-exclusionary restroom policies, no dv/homeless person shelters for cis women only, etc.

>>8110304
>Like if you reach for a pen to write something and it breaks, do you coddle it, or do you toss it to the garbage and reach for another pen?
I'll sharpen it so I can keep using it and not waste pens.

>>8110290
>Why should such a patient be considered a member of the other sex, though?
Why not? When it harms no one, helps them and >>8110305, where's the harm? And considering amount of changes from hormones and surgery you can hardly call them their birth sex either.

>>8109791
>people always tell me i'm wrong
>must be the same cyberbully every thread

>>8109812
>son wants estrogen supplements
>give him testosterone supplements

>>8110305
No, that part would fall under counseling. You can give someone HRT and even SRS to alleviate their anatomy-targeted symptoms and at the same time psychological counseling so their psychological obsession with "being a woman" is alleviated.

Because, even if there's a neurological root of anatomy-based dysphoria, the same cannot possibly be the case for "wanting to be considered a woman" because that's an abstract idea that's based on the person's mental conception of what a "woman" even is. It's something malleable. It's purely concerned with ideas, not some concrete part of the neural system that can't be changed (say because we don't have such technology, to slice up very deeply embedded structures in the brain or whatever).

>>8110308
>No more quotas, no [women] only spaces, no female scholarships, no [women-only] restroom policies, no dv/homeless person shelters for [women] only,
These have nothing to do with how one chooses to live their life. These are about access to resources in society. Some resources are set apart for women to help alleviate a cycle of oppression.

>pay gap lie
Go through this whole section, see the studies positively proving that the pay gap is (in part) related directly to sexism, and in many was indirectly so:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap_in_the_United_States#Occupational_segregation

>>8110318
>Why not?
Because it leads to serious problems when MRAs like >>8110308 aggressively demand access to female spaces and resources. It will effectively harm the women using those spaces and resources.

>>8110406
>sexism is wrong
>but female privilege isn't sexism
t. feminist

/thread

>>8110406
>Because it leads to serious problems when MRAs like >>8110308 aggressively demand access to female spaces and resources. It will effectively harm the women using those spaces and resources.
Transgender people are way more underprivileged than women.

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>>8110413
>female privilege
You're a fucking idiot m8.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap_in_the_United_States#Occupational_segregation
>[pic related]

>>8110416
You really believe that, don't you?
Have you ever heard of Caitlyn Jenner, Kelly Maloney, India Willoughby, or Stef On Knee?
If anything, male trans access to female spaces and resources would need to be controlled very strictly to prevent abuse.

>>8110406
>the same cannot possibly be the case for "wanting to be considered a woman"
That's only if subscribe to feminist belief that every behavior is a social construct.

>>8110195

No it's not.

>>8110416
>arguing with a feminist

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guys this numale is literally using caitlyn jenner as an example

>>8110232
Looks like they understand it perfectly.

>>8110434
>Have you ever heard of Caitlyn Jenner, Kelly Maloney, India Willoughby, or Stef On Knee?
Hons aren't actually transgender, since there's no way somebody with actual gender dysphoria would survive that long without transition.

>>8110318
>When it harms no one

It harms all of fucking society by buying into ancient gender roles that aren't needed. Just because it makes the person in question feel good doesn't mean it's a good thing.

>>8110416
>Transgender people are way more underprivileged than women.

So in which case, they're not women, so they have no need to fight for women's rights and all they have to worry about is getting hounded by chasers or called "men"

>>8110441
Are you literally claiming that the human brain naturally knows of the word "woman" and can therefore have an inherent, structurally encoded desire to be considered one?

How does this work for, I dunno, Japanese people?

>>8110466
>>8110477
>No True Scotsman
They sure are getting legally recognized as women through the new laws, and it's become a taboo to point out that they're men. The liberal part of society now fully considers them women.

You can't ignore this problem, though fine, if you want to define trans based on strong dysphoria and early transitioning, we can focus on that.

Young transitioners still don't have the same problems as women. They never experience being taught in childhood that they're inferior for being female, they don't experience sexual harassment beginning with, like, 12. They don't experience period shaming or the fear of becoming pregnant.

Their issues are more related to society not wanting to accept feminine males, and their personal struggle with dysphoria. These are problems different from those of women.

So tell me, now that we've agreed on late transitioners not being women, why should early transitioning MtFs be considered women?

>>8110478
>It harms all of fucking society by buying into ancient gender roles that aren't needed.
And if they don't fit into gender roles they get treated like shit. Not everybody wants to suffer every day for some political cause, but of course you wouldn't know speaking from a position of privilege.

>>8109770
Here's a quick rundown you fucking faggots;
If you are born with a penis then you are a male.
If you are born with a vagina you are a female.

>>8110486
What the hell? So because black women are more underprivileged than white women, they're not women? Do you listen to yourself? Also why wouldn't trans women experience the same bullshit that cis women do? Why would those be their only problems?

>>8110504
I wasn't going for a not true scotman, I was going for "look this retard is cherrypicking harder than a mexican immigrant"

>>8110506
>And if they don't fit into gender roles they get treated like shit.

No, there are plenty of people who don't fit into gender roles, they have friends and support groups, and it's usually because they aren't annoying fucking professional victims who drive everybody in their lives away with their insipid nonsense.

You'll suffer like everyone else on this miserable planet. You'll suffer, or you'll die. Preferably the latter.

>>8110513
why do you sperg out whenever we say otherwise?

sounds like some autism

>>8110514
>Also why wouldn't trans women experience the same bullshit that cis women do

Like what? And if this were the case, why are so many trannies on this board still false flagging MRAs?

>>8110514
>black women

Also don't make this about black women, most of them hate you more than I do.

>>8110529
>No, there are plenty of people who don't fit into gender roles, they have friends and support groups
on what fantasy planet is this

>>8110514
>why wouldn't trans women experience the same bullshit that cis women do
Because they aren't women.

Trans "women" have none of the experiences related to being born female (very early socialization, during psychologically formative years), and being biologically female (body shaming, sexual harassment starting with puberty, period shaming, pregnancy issues).

At MOST a fully transitioned, passing TW can claim to have *some* of the same experiences as women: being treated like one in daily life, experiencing day to day misogyny. (And even then, years of male socialization may have given them better defenses to being treated shit than what many women are conditioned to do, which is to shrink themselves.)

I could reach a point of agreement with you if you said that early transitioners, once they fully pass, can be considered half-women.

>>8110525
You're an idiot who's got no arguments left so he's slinging insults like a 12 year-old now.

>>8110529
>No, there are plenty of people who don't fit into gender roles,
And that doesn't put them in anywhere as much danger as trans people, who'll at best be seen as illegitimate and at worst subjected to violence.
>they have friends and support groups
Oh, must be nice living in an accepting place. Of course a privileged person would say things like that.
>and it's usually because they aren't annoying fucking professional victims who drive everybody in their lives away with their insipid nonsense.
Nice victim blaming. Gotta love feminism.

>>8110538
Because they don't pass, so they don't have to put up with men's bullshit every time they go outside. But if you're a perceived as a girl or a woman, you will get the same shit that cis women do, so I don't see why you're acting like early transitioners live perfect lives free of misogynistic bullshit. They only really luck out on period stuff.

>>8110548
Not your imaginary world where all of your problems come from the fact that people don't understand you and your addled, childlike mind.

>>8110555
>But if you're a perceived as a girl or a woman, you will get the same shit that cis women do

Hit on?

>>8110504
>Are you literally claiming that the human brain naturally knows of the word "woman" and can therefore have an inherent, structurally encoded desire to be considered one?
If people naturally group together based on race, why do you think it's impossible for the same to happen with sex.

And don't act like it's about words, the concept of male/female long predates humanity.

>>8109770
>my parents love me unconditionally
Yeah about that.

>>8110565
>hurr racism is sexism a natural, you're a special snowflake if you don't believe me and my feminine penis

>>8110551
>You're an idiot who's got no arguments left so he's slinging insults like a 12 year-old now.
My argument is that you are cherrypicking people who don't suffer from lack of privileges because of their celebrity status. It has nothing to do with being transgender or not.

You are the one who has no arguments.

>>8110529
>there are plenty of people who don't fit into gender roles, they have friends and support groups, and it's usually because they aren't annoying fucking professional victims who drive everybody in their lives away with their insipid nonsense.
Actually, they have friends and support groups because their entire friendship/support group is built on the principle of professional victimhood.

>>8110565
>If people naturally group together based on race
Citation?

Are you saying that a person will develop debilitating mental disorders if adopted and raised by parents of a different race, in a nation consisting of that race?

Like, can a white child not find happiness growing up in a community of blacks, with no white friends, even if he's fully accepted?

>>8110581
The listed people aren't simply privileged because of celeb status, they're privileged because they've lived as men for literally 40+ years.

Likewise, someone who's lived as a man into his 20s will very significantly have attained male privilege, even if he also had dysphoria and femininity to deal with.

Being underprivileged among men does not compare to having literally no male privilege due to being born female.

I've elaborated on the reasons above. You haven't responded to them.

>>8110581
>because their entire friendship/support group is built on the principle of professional victimhood

I think you're confusing "Well-groomed men who wear pastels sometimes and aren't furiously closeted retards" with depressed otherkin whales with eyebrow piercings and guys who grew up with 5 older sisters.

>>8109770

>We don't really care if they're a boy or a girl we'll show them unconditional love nevertheless!
>oh shit they want to be a transgenderer girl
>taking hormones is not the solution to their problems this is horrible can't they just be a gay guy there must be a treatment for trans people since transgenderers don't exist
>can't we just inject them with testosterone so they don't mutilate themselves?
>well they can become a girl all they want but they'll always be a boy and ill call them a boy so people don't get confused!

I'm sorta surprised people approach transgenderism with anything more than pure apathy and indifference.

>>8110591
>The listed people aren't simply privileged because of celeb status, they're privileged because they've lived as men for literally 40+ years.
No, you are absolutely wrong.

What you are saying right now is that if these people weren't celebrities and were 50+ years old hon transitioners without celeb privileges they would still be more privileged than cis women.
You are completely delusional if you actually believe that, feminism melted your brain beyond measure.

>>8110594
>I think you're confusing
I'm not confused.

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>>8110622
If they learned their place in society as little more than cumdumps for closeted gays there wouldn't be an issue, but what they really get off to the idea of taking a fat one in the ass and then dropping off the load into the girl's toilet at shart mart next to the changing station. Tolerating their existence wouldn't be enough, the thirst for validation these people seek is unquenchable.

>>8110641
man thats the weakest bait in the board in more than a month, apply yourself

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>>8110644
Sorry anon

>>8110652
You have to blend in, man, you can't just go against the flow of the thread with a raging post and a pepe picture, you have to let it flow

>>8110655
>the "art of trolling"

>>8110641
>their place in society as little more than cumdumps for closeted gays there wouldn't be an issue
I'm sorry, but that position is reserved for underage latino prostitutes only.

>>8110665
i believe in you

>>8109846

You don't need to prove anything about gender identity. It's already been proven that people who are transgender and refused a transition in childhood have a suicide attempt rate of 41%, while those who were allowed to transition as children have depression and anxiety levels similar to cis children.

That's as much as you can chalk up to environmental influence in the case of transgender children, and the case of David Reimer supports it. If you think preventing a child from being themselves "corrects" them, you will find yourself with a maladjusted child regardless of whether you -think- their desire is ridiculous.

>>8110676
I'm going to make a list of things that tax dollars don't pay for, but should, that are more important than keeping children from committing suicide for losing ipods, cyber bullying or being the wrong gender.

>>8110698
Do you realize how ridiculously callous you sound

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>>8110698
>losing an ipod is the same as a mental condition

feminists, everyone

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>>8110705
>everyone that doesn't agree with me is a shitlord
>>8110711
>everyone that doesn't agree with me is a feminist

You're lucky to be called people.

>>8110719
I'm not the heartless monster who just wants people to suffer because they are different, I'm actually human.

>>8110728
>I'm actually human

Keep telling yourself that you idealistic, infantilized little hypocrite.

>>8110632
>What you are saying right now is that if these people weren't celebrities and were 50+ years old hon transitioners without celeb privileges they would still be more privileged than cis women.
First of all, we aren't doing Oppression Olympics. We're talking about whether a person has male privilege or not. You can be a black man born into poverty with a shit life, and of fucking course Hillary Clinton will overall have more privilege than you in life. That however is a wrong comparison. The correct comparison is between the black guy born into poverty and a black woman born into poverty, or between Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton. If you want to compare the 50+ transitioner to a corresponding female person, consider a 50+ FtM. She suffered female oppression her whole life and god knows how society will treat her through her attempt to transition, if she ever even finds the chance. (Note the amounts of 50+ MtFs compared to the amount of 50+ FtMs.) The guy OTOH has had male privilege for 50 years and his transitioning won't be any harder than the 50+ y.o. woman's FtM transitioning.

You simply know jack shit about analysis of how privilege works. Go get some basic education on such topics. Like literally use Google, type in "how does privilege work." Christ.

>>8110796
Privilege is a meme, you shouldn't actually seriously factor it into your arguments

It is, functionally, the same thing as oppression olympics. Even if it's real in some cases like with affirmative action and custody laws, it's pointless to argue about outside of designated safe spaces.

>>8110796
Isn't that more complex though? Because then a 30 year old FtM who transitioned at 15 has "just as much" cumulative male privilege as a 30 year old MtF who transitioned at 15, because both of them got 15 years of "male privilege". But the MtF's male privilege was only experienced as a child and early teen, which you might say is more formative, but they don't remember the majority of those experiences. And the FtM's male privilege was experienced when they were more cognizant of what was happening, and when gender roles play a more significant role in a person's life. So who has "more" male privilege in this scenario? You just can't measure this stuff with numbers.

It's proof that religion is such a powerful brainwashing tool that people will override their most powerful instinct --parental-- in the name of it.

>>8109786
Don't argue with trannies, they're literally fucked in the head.

>>8110841
What the fuck "privilege" is it to be raised as a boy for 15 years when you're an MTF?

>>8110913
Yeah see exactly, the definition of "privilege" shifts depending on the context, which means it can't be measured and compared accurately.

>>8110819
>Privilege is a meme
Refer to >>8110434.

All you've got going for you is argument by assertion. Boring.

>>8110841
>Because then a 30 year old FtM who transitioned at 15 has "just as much" cumulative male privilege as a 30 year old MtF who transitioned at 15, because both of them got 15 years of "male privilege".
Childhood/teenage experiences are more formative to the psyche than adult experiences.

>But the MtF's male privilege was only experienced as a child and early teen, which you might say is more formative, but they don't remember the majority of those experiences.
It's not about remembering the details of what happened to you, it's about how you get to experience life in total and form your personality around that.

>FtM's male privilege was experienced when they were more cognizant of what was happening, and when gender roles play a more significant role in a person's life
You don't get early-life male socialization and its effects when you start being clocked as male at 15.

And gender roles play a very significant role in children's lives. At what age do you think boys begin getting bullied for being too "girly" and girls made fun of for being too "boyish"?

>So who has "more" male privilege in this scenario? You just can't measure this stuff with numbers.
You can't measure it with numbers. You can say that the experience of both of these people is significantly different than the experience of someone who never had a social sex change, and then point out that the experiences of the female person are more akin to those of other female people, despite the transing at 15.

I'm not sure if it was in this thread but I've said before that I could agree on a statement such as "an early transitioned and fully passing trans may be considered *halfway* a member of the other sex." Like an MtF who transed at 15 may halfway be considered a woman if you want. (Still doesn't get the right to demand all women to accept him as one though.)

>>8110913
>What the fuck "privilege" is it to be raised as a boy for 15 years when you're an MTF?
- Not being told that you're inferior from birth because of your sex.
- Not being taught that your natural role is to be subservient to men.
- Not being shamed for your female body.
- Not beginning to experience sexual harassment as soon as you hit puberty if not earlier.
- Not being period-shamed.
- Not having to worry about pregnancy.

Literally when you ask "what privilege?!?" it shows how privileged you are because you have no idea what growing up as a girl actually entails, LOL.

>>8110950
>and then point out that the experiences of the female person are more akin to those of other female people, despite the transing at 15.

You only believe that because you're stuck in theory land, if you were actually looking at these two people and their lives, a 30-year-old FtM and a 30-year-old MtF who both transitioned as early as 15 (which means that they most likely had gender dysphoria and gender nonconforming behavior long before then), it would be obvious that the trans man's life and experiences are more akin to a cis man's life than the trans woman's. You're just being contrarian almost.

>>8110963
Question, if a young trans girl already knew that she identified as a girl, even if she wasn't yet presenting, wouldn't she still internalize these messages aimed at young girls? Except maybe the period shaming and pregnancy fears, but a child doesn't have full understanding of that stuff anyway.

>>8109770
I don't think you understand just how important religion IS to these people. Their entire lives revolve around it. They and their entire family will be shunned and ostracised in this life for NOT disowning their child, and then they believe with all their heart that they and their entire family will suffer eternal punishment for it as well, after their death.

But yeah, it is fucked up.

>>8109786
Well, transgender-ness basically IS a mental disorder.
The problem is that 4chan (and by extension popular culture) feel that mental disorders are all the same.
Which they're not.
But since I'm evidently talking to a brick wall here with your use of 'retarded' as a slur showing you have no concept of that, why am I typing this?

>>8110969
Meh, it probably depends on the individual.

It's well-known that many FtMs have cringe-worthy behavior with a ton of forced masculinity.

>>8110984
I do not think it would work in a comparable way, no. Accepting that you're a girl and being told "girls are like this and that" gives you less freedom than thinking that maybe you're really a girl and hearing things like "girls are like this and that." In fact, hearing those things and noticing that a lot of it naturally aligns with the boy's personality may just be the reason he ends up believing that he's "really a girl".

It's complicated, but not equivalent.

>>8111002
>You used "retard" as a slur on 4chan so arguing with you must be like talking to a brick wall
Does not compute.
And retard is not a medical term anymore. (I don't condone its liberal use outside of places like 4chan though.)

>>8110963
Interesting. I had a girlfriend once who confessed to me in a candid moment that she had always felt that women were naturally inferior to men, and I couldn't understand if she was conditioned that way from birth, or what. She was almost crying when she said it. It stuck with me forever because it was so bizarre and I didn't understand it.

>- Not being told that you're inferior from birth because of your sex.
Females can do everything males can do plus can give birth. If anything females are the superior and more valuable sex by far.

>- Not being shamed for your female body.
>- Not being period-shamed.
>- Not having to worry about pregnancy.
Why would any of those things be shameful or negative? Being able to give birth is an incredible gift, and vital to the survival of humanity. It's so bizarre that females are made to feel that way. Who is implanting those ideas and why? Maybe it's men doing it, because they actually feel threatened by women?

The book that always gets touted on here, "The Manipulated Male", posits that women actually know they are more valuable than men, and lie about feeling inferior and subservient, to manipulate males to "protect" and serve them. Maybe you're lying?

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>>8110641

The best bait is designed to feed off fears, insecurities, and incite people into a rage where they feel compelled to "educate" others to veil the annoyance and anger brewing inside.

If you can post a sentence and get a paragraph in response then you win desu.

>>8111043
>Does not compute.
If anon is willing to use words like that as a casual insult, anon is evidently casually bigoted.

>>8111051
>I had a girlfriend once who confessed to me in a candid moment that she had always felt that women were naturally inferior to men, and I couldn't understand if she was conditioned that way from birth, or what.
There was a recent study that girls believe men to be superior by the age of 6. I'm at a point where I don't see why this should be surprising: all of our society and culture including toys and mass media targeted at children (think Disney movies) bombards children with this message.

>Females can do everything males can do plus can give birth. If anything females are the superior and more valuable sex by far.
Well, leaving aside an objective evaluation of which sex is superior in some ways: that wasn't really my point, the point is society's messages of one sex being inferior.

(As for the objective evaluation: I find having a male body slightly superior, because screw getting pregnant, we're already over-populated. Bleeding every month out of your genitals doesn't exactly sound fun either. And men are statistically speaking likely to be a bit bigger and stronger, though that's mostly unimportant nowadays.)

>Why would any of those things be shameful or negative?
Girls are taught to cover themselves up lest they be sluts. Though nowadays there's a variation of that where instead they're pressured to reveal as much as possible for the pleasure of boys. ("Aren't you ~~sexually liberated~~? Why not wear a mini-skirt and suck ten cocks a day then?") They're shamed for having periods because people say it's disgusting. Getting pregnant as a teenager is pretty shitty in a multitude of ways, both intrinsically and with relation to how people will treat you...

>It's so bizarre that females are made to feel that way. Who is implanting those ideas and why? Maybe it's men doing it, because they actually feel threatened by women?
It makes sense when you consider "patriarchy" works kinda like a religion.

>"The Manipulated Male"
>Maybe you're lying?
You what?

>>8111150
Oh sorry it's "The Manipulated Man". Written by a woman btw.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcAWn2D8EsM

I thought you were a born female giving your personal experiences but that doesn't seem to be the case. Since you didn't experience growing up as a female, you can only relay what you heard the female experience is like, told by females. But maybe they're lying? About all the feelings of inferiority.

>>8109812
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

>>8111215
>But maybe they're lying? About all the feelings of inferiority.

As an MtF, they're obviously not. It's just maybe more nuanced than this guy wants you to believe, I think he's a self-hating repressed AGP or something.

>>8110551
I'm sure a trans person never experiences body shame

>>8111215
>But maybe they're lying? About all the feelings of inferiority.
Do you have some sort of autism? Genuine question.

>>8111247
An MtF never experiences female body shame in childhood.

Remember: the discussion is not Oppression Olympics, it's whether it makes sense to consider MtFs women.

>>8111075
Uh its not bad to call someone retard on 4chan.

>>8110023
>muh patriarchy
ok you just lost the argument
your post: into the mental trashbin it goes

>>8111452
>I'm an MRA please fuck me in my asshole as hard as possible
Just bend over and we'll start sweetie.
It's what all MRAs secretly desire.

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>>8109770
>extremely common

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>>8111487
>everyone who disagrees with me is an angry MRA virgin

what a unique and new diss
never heard that one before

>>8111498
you must not live in a conservative part of the usa count your lucky stars

>>8109770
I find it fucked up but that's because religion itself is fucked up. If you can convince a huge group of people that doing [x,y, or z] is going to send you to the worst torment ever imaginable created by god himself to punish you for all eternity, then you can manipulate the population easily and convince them to do a lot of irrational shit.

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>I believe in the patriarchy unironically
>muh war on women
>let's just ignore that women will stay with a violent man because they secretly prefer being punched in the face to being with a beta manboob
>women earn less b-because men force them into lower paying roles!
>s-soggy knees
this is what you actually believe
jesus this is too much, I'm outta here

>>8111239
>As an MtF, they're obviously not.
Explain?

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>>8111507
>>8111524
>LOLOLO PATRIARCHY HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE IN SOMETHING THAT YOU'VE JUST PROVEN TO EXIST LOLO
>I'M NOT AN MRA LOLO

When presented with clear evidence, the brain of the MRA begins to malfunction. In this situation, the MRA begins to point fingers and laugh frantically, his vocabulary becoming more and more narrow. "s-soggy knees! b-beta man-boob! punch face w-w-woMAN!" Such expressions signify the MRA's deep state of confusion and cognitive dissonance.

At this point, it is best to leave the MRA to his own devices. His intelligence will gradually climb back from this primal state to his normal levels of IQ: around 75 to 90, depending on the individual MRA.

>>8111403
Yes, but the use of the word at all is the issue, and you not understanding why it's bad.

>>8110963
>Literally when you ask "what privilege?!?" it shows how privileged you are because you have no idea
t. female privilege denier

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>>8111524
>>8111666
>jesus this is too much, I'm outta here!
>keeps posting
t. BTFO MRA

>>8109807
I don't see the incoherence. Since homosexual people are less likely to breed—remember they “can” breed, they aren't sterile—and pass on the next generation, it's quite rational to disown them and bestow all the assets on able brothers and sisters.

well i just stop looking at the thread some hours and it goes to shit

who let tumblr out of the cage

>>8111699
because this is an lgbt board, the mere existence of it attracts the tumblrinas

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>>8109770
AI researchers first ran across it when developing neural nets. The longer you allowed a neural net to learn, the more rigid its definition of boundary conditions became. Sometimes so rigid that the net became useless for its intended task. e.g. You could develop a neural net which would stop a train in the correct position at the platform 80% of the time. Further training would increase this to 90%, then 95%, then 99% of the time, but resulted in the net completely flipping out the remaining 1% of the time when it calculated it was going to overshoot by 1 mm outside the trained parameters. The first solution was to stop the learning process and freeze the neural net before it reached this stage, then simply use it in production with the learning capability (ability to modify itself) disabled. The next solution was to use simulated annealing to occasionally reset the specific things the neural net had learned, while retaining the general things it had learned.

You also see this in biological neural nets. As people get older, they tend to get set in their ways, less likely to change their opinions even in the face of contradictory evidence. (As opposed to younger people who are too eager to form an opinion despite weak or the lack of evidence.) I suspect this is also where the aphorism "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" comes from. IMHO this is why trying to lengthen the human lifespan in the pursuit of immortality is a bad idea. Death is nature's way of clearing out neural nets which have become too rigid to respond properly to common variability in situations they encounter. My grandmother hated the Japanese to her dying day (they raped and killed her sister and niece during WWII). If people were immortal, we'd be completely dysfunctional as a society because everyone would be holding grudges and experience-based prejudice for hundreds of years, to the detriment of immediate benefit.

>>8111664
I'll try to detail what I think the use of the word retard entails and then you point out where I am wrong and why it is bad.

Retard has become slang for someone with mental disabilities. It usually implies Down Syndrome but could include other disorders, regardless it means severe cognitive impairment. People with severe cognitive impairment are more likely to hold and come up with bad, incorrect, or stupid ideas. Calling someone retarded is utilizing a metaphor to say that person comes up with or holds bad, incorrect or stupud ideas.

>>8109770
I'd disown my kid if they were a tranny.

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>>8112101
Because of Jesus or Mohammed or what?
Asking for a friend.
>inb4 Hitler said it's degenerate!

Allah ackbar

>>8111686
FYI this isn't reddit. Check out your usename; it's the same too!

>>8112091
Yes, but to people that have milder mental disorders that aren't debilitating, it's likening them to being actually mentally retarded.

Like calling someone white trash just because they're white and drive a pickup truck.

>>8111900
>we'd be completely dysfunctional as a society because everyone would be holding grudges and experience-based prejudice for hundreds of years, to the detriment of immediate benefit.
This seems kind of like a non sequitur. That would happen and it would be a negative, but things wouldn't stop working.

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>>8112142
>Not only am I out of arguments, he's also making fun of me now!
>I know! I'll call him a ledditor! That'll show him!

>>8109812
Actually my brain was shown physically female on a catscan so there is a way. How do they physcial ly diagnose autism is that fake too

>>8109846
>Huh, I can prove my sexuality.
Except literally nobody is asking you to do that. People just take your word on it, especially if you're in a same-sex relationship and/or have gay sex.
Why treat transsexuals differently?
>>8109862
>brain patterns, hormone levels
Currently those are mere hypotheses, and while they could be a neat explanation of the transgender phenomenon, they currently lack solid proofs.
> childhood behavior
Stereotypes.

>>8111886
>the mere existence of it attracts the tumblrinas
Well it shouldn't.
It would be named dumblr if we wanted that cesspool here.
This is why everything not lgbt should be banned.

>>8112158
It is likeing people with milder mental disorders to people with downs syndrome the same way it likens people without mental disorders to people with downs syndrome. If they have bad, incorrect, or stupid ideas they may be called a retard.

Also think of it this way. It is much more widely agreed upon that it is quite inappropriate to call someone with down syndrome a retard no matter how bad, incorrect, or stupid their ideas are. If someone with mild mental impairments is called a retard that is a sign that that person is being treated the same as a normal person without the mild mental impairment.

>>8112190
>Actually my brain was shown physically female on a catscan

How did they determine that, BTSc? Are you HSTS or AGP?

>>8112190
Autism is diagnosed by behavioral analysis and reaction to stimuli. They dont do an "autism brain scan".

>>8112190
>my brain was shown physically female
There is no such thing as a female brain so at most they could have determined that your SDN or BTSc are nearer to the female norm, and calling that "female" is like telling a guy he has "female height" if he's 5 feet or saying he has "female strength" if he's rather physically weak. It makes no sense.

>>8112306
Wait, but then how is autism real? You might as well say that transgenderism is real, it has the same flimsy evidence.

>>8112279
>This is why everything not lgbt should be banned.
Discussion of whether MtF are or aren't women falls under T. Shucks.

>>8112322
Gender dysphoria is real. Transgenderism is the idea that you're in some sense literally one sex in the body of the other.

>>8112319
>There is no such thing as a female brain

Wait a tic, if that's true then why does it matter what our brain scans show? Why do people claim we can't "think like women" when apparently there are no inherently gendered thinking patterns to begin with?

>>8112338
>Discussion of whether MtF are or aren't women falls under T. Shucks.
I may be wrong, but I'm pretty certain that "everything not lgbt should be banned" implies that everything lgbt related is perfectly fine.
So what part of my post was too hard for you to understand?

>>8112319
>There is no such thing as a female brain
source?

>>8112285
I bet you cheat at videogames as well, with the justification of 'IT IS A TACTIC IN THE GAME WHY SHOULD I NOT USE IT'.

You're just repeating the initial point, so I'll just repeat mine.
>>8112158
>Yes, but to people that have milder mental disorders that aren't debilitating, it's likening them to being actually mentally retarded.
>Like calling someone white trash just because they're white and drive a pickup truck.

>>8112322
Oh you might have me confused with another poster. I think transgenderism is real and in many cases is probably linked to a neurological defect that probably occurs early on in gestation when the the baby undergoes physiological and morphological changes due to exposure to different hormones depending upon the baby's sex. There was a time where every man's penis was once a clitoris or proto-clit in the womb.

Now some transgenderism might be linked to a psychological problem. However both are problems because the person with the condition suffers emotional distress related to their perception of their body that is severe enough to significantlt impair their lives.

>>8112409
It's on you to prove there are differences between all male and female brains (excluding trannies).

>>8112472
i dont want to, i was genuinely asking since you said it as a fact so i thought there was a study or something

>>8112485
I'm not that anon. I'd be interested in studies either way, but studies can't prove a negative.

>>8112502
>but studies can't prove a negative
w-what
but they can

>>8109786
It is congenital. They just dont realize it until they socialize or see themselves in the mirror.

>>8112520
Uh, how?

>>8112340
>Why do people claim we can't "think like women" when apparently there are no inherently gendered thinking patterns to begin with?
If "think like a woman" is meant in some biological essentialist way, it's sexist bullshit.
Otherwise it may be meant in the sense "girls are raised very differently from boys so there are differences in the ways girls and boys tend to think due to the way we raise them." Which won't show up in a brain scan, of course.

>>8112409
http://www.pnas.org/content/112/50/15468
>Our study demonstrates that, although there are sex/gender differences in the brain, human brains do not belong to one of two distinct categories: male brain/female brain.
It's just like height. Different statistical distributions among women and men, but mostly overlapping so there's no such thing as "female height" or "male height".

To be honest though, I don't know how this study relates to findings about the sizes of the BSTc and SDN being dimorphic. I don't know if the main body of the study touches that, as I can only see the abstract.

>>8112640
>"girls are raised very differently from boys so there are differences in the ways girls and boys tend to think due to the way we raise them."
>Which won't show up in a brain scan, of course.
Why not?

>>8112640
https://sillyolme.wordpress.com/2017/02/26/pink-and-blue/
>a recent paper/letter has shown that with increased resolution and computer power we can determine the sex of a person that a particular brain resides in just from an analysis of the 3D image of their brains to 93% accuracy.

>>8112472
>>8112485
I don't have studies off hand but I recall some studies that indicated
-Male brains tend to be larger in volume and mass
-Male brains tend to have more neurons
-Male brains tend to have a higher number of neural connections among neurons
-Female brains tend to show a higher degree of interaction between the two hemispheres of the brain when compared to male brains, when both the male and female are doing the same mental task

There are probably others but I don't recall off-hand. It is worth noting that the similarities far outnumber the differences as we know it. All (normal) brains have the same shape, and the various parts of the brains which are believed to be responsible for the various mental and cognitive tasks are associated with the same areas in both males and females.

>>8112679
So is this... Good, or bad for us? Since it's coming from sillyolme, I'm assuming this is gonna be our nail of the coffin that she's always wanted, but I could see it going our way under specific circumstances.

>>8112687
>tend to
Men tend to be taller but there is no male and female height.

>>8112646
I was thinking that psychological effects don't reflect on structure, but maybe I was mistaken? Can you see the effect of cumulative life experiences (not just super major events like massive trauma) in brain scans?

>>8112679
I don't have a link right now to the response to that study, but that 93% accuracy was only reached by training the computer specifically for a given data set. When the algorithm was applied to a different data set of brain scans, the accuracy fell again. Or something like that anyhow. I'll see if I can find the response.

>>8112679
oh shi SHUT IT DOWN

>>8112692
>I'm assuming this is gonna be our nail of the coffin that she's always wanted,
What do you mean?

She's interpreting it as proving LGBT people (who she assumed are the 7% who are predicted wrong) have brains resembling the opposite sex. Meaning trans does exist and it's the same as being LGB.

>>8112692
Probably neutral.
I'd imagine HRT would be the biggest factor, since I doubt they controlled for effects of sex hormones.

>>8112711
I guess that might be true, but why would it cover all LGBT people instead of just trans people?

>>8112711
It's also sounds suspiciously similar to the number of people who experience some kind of A*P (both '''cis''' and trans).

>>8112720
>take HRT in secret
>feminize my brain
>stop taking HRT until my hormone levels go back to normal but not wait enough so my brain goes back to being masculine
>go check my brain gender and get female results
>they take me a blood test
>it's just high T like a healthy male
>considered trutrans by the science community

I can't wait

>>8112699
>Or something like that anyhow. I'll see if I can find the response.
Found it:
http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1969.full
>Although the different supervised learning methods achieve better accuracy in predicting sex category than the simple method described above, they have the same conceptual problem, namely, it is unclear what the biological meaning of the new space is and in what sense brains that seem close in this space are more similar than brains that seem distant. Moreover, it is unclear whether the brain variability that is represented in the new space is related to sex or rather to physiological, psychological, or social variables that correlate with sex (e.g., weight, socioeconomic status, or type of education) or to a chance difference between the males and females in the sample (2, 4). One way to answer this question is by checking whether a model created to predict sex category in one dataset can accurately predict sex category in another dataset. Using SVM, we found that accuracy may drop dramatically (sometimes to less than 50%) when a model created using a dataset from one geographical region (Tel-Aviv, Beijing, or Cambridge) was tested on the other datasets.

>Conclusion
>Sex affects the brain, but the prevalence of mosaicism does not support the view that sex effects on the brain produce two distinct types of brains. Current data are not sufficient, however, to fully characterize the relations between sex and the brain (4).

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>>8112733
>mfw the remaining 6% of trannies were just forcibly outed by their brains

The future is wild, man

>>8112755
*technically the remaining 85% of trannies, 6% of the population

>>8112725
This is the bit you'll consider nail in the coffin.

Because gay and HSTS trans are the same phenomenon.

>>8112733
Interesting thought. Of course it could just be tested scanning LGB and A*P people. Testing LGBT people is the obvious next step following those findings, and that would test A*P trans people in the process, if not 'cis' A*Ps.

But why would A*P people show up as the other sex but HSTS and gay people not?

The 7% could just be coincidence and statistical error though.

>>8112763
>Because gay and HSTS trans are the same phenomenon.
Says who? That delusional fetishistic oldman?

>>8112763
>The 7% could just be coincidence and statistical error though.
That's what I believe personally, I was only parodying sillyolhon's claim.

>>8112763
Yeah, I think I would literally kill myself. Although that wouldn't explain AGPs.

>>8112695
Agreed there is no male or female height, but there definitely is a male and female height distribution. And the two curves though they do overlap are distinctly different.

There are also Male and Female IQ distributions. While both Male and Female have essentially the same median IQ, the Male IQ distribution has a higher variance, meaning there will tend to be more males on either extreme of the curve.

>>8112695
While it would be incorrect to state that it is a sexual characteristic of humans that the male of the species is taller than the female. It is not incorrect to state that it is a sexual characteristic of humans that the male of the species on average is taller than the female.

>>8112781

Why would you kill yourself over that?

>>8112776
That is the context of the conversation, yes.

>>8112779
Well that's more boring.

>>8112781
Wew. Why?

>Although that wouldn't explain AGPs.
This doesn't *explain* anything. The explanation of the gay/HSTS connection already existed and so does the ETLE explanation of A*Ps.

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>be old
>have a gay child
>can no longer make children once hes around 15
>"Daddy, I'm gay"
>your lineage dies right there

This kills the father. Even if your parents are "cool" with it, it's eating away at them. They just kept it hidden.

>>8112818
>Well that's more boring.
Perhaps, but 100% correct prediction regarding something so complex as human brain by a computer would be weird as hell.

>>8112837
What if my sister has a child

>>8112837
If you only have 1 kid and put the entire weight of your lineage on his/her shoulders it means it was doomed anyways, since your retarded ass fucked everything up.

ALWAYS have more than 1 kid, if your lineage is so important for you.

>>8112797
>>8112813
We would never say someone's gender identity is derived from their height or IQ.

>>8112837
What the fuck is people's obsession with "continuing their lineage"?

It's an idiotic ideal.

I'd rather never have genetic children. It saddens me a little to consider there will be less high-IQ high-empathy people on the world, but the rest of the world is just going to make that high-IQ high-empathy child suffer through hell so no thanks. I already barely survived my teenage years.

Completely leaving aside the fact that we're ridiculously over-populated.

(All of the above is ignoring the question of how my DNA would mix with that of my partner, but whatever, you get the point.)

I'd rather adopt a normie kid that would otherwise have to grow up in an orphanage.

>>8112817
Because it would mean that HSTSes really ARE just faggots and it's not just a meme, and it would probably mean that I'm just a straight man, and I hate straight men because of all the shit that me and my friends have to put up with from them, so I would just kill myself.

>>8112818
>and so does the ETLE explanation of A*Ps

That was always a sorry explanation for why "AGPs" have dysphoria, sorry.

>>8112849
Then your name isn't passed down.

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>>8112856
>high-IQ high-empathy people
Ewww empathy.

>>8112861
who cares about a dumb name

>>8112857
>and it would probably mean that I'm just a straight man
>just a straight man
>just

>I'd rather kill myself

This basically proves AGP trannies simply have internalized misandry. The "straight man" icon in your mind is constructed to be such a negative stereotype that you'd rather kill yourself or mutilate your body than to be one.

FFS.

>>8112857
Blanchardian explanation of AGP are just plain shit.
>ETLE
>romantic love of self as handwaving why it doesn't persist through HRT

>>8112851
Well sure, but life isn't so basic all the time. Sometimes you just are restricted to one for reasons out of your control (like economically).

>>8112856
>What the fuck is people's obsession with "continuing their lineage"?

It's a byproduct of wanting to fuck and make children.

>>8112869
If you don't care about passing your name down, you probably don't the deserve the satisfaction of it. It's something you do and feel content with life, it's why old people are fine with dying, etc etc you get my point

>>8112870
Not her but honestly I'd be pretty devastated too and I'm not a misandrist in the slightest, in fact I adore men.

I'd be devastated because I really feel crippling dysphoria and this test ""proving"" that trannies aren't actually a thing would just make people even less accepting of me.

>>8112838
Well, the alternative wouldn't be 100% accuracy. It could be an error or 1 or 2 points.

>>8112857
What's wrong with that explanation for A*P dysphoria?

>>8112870
Most of my bad experiences with them came after I transitioned tho

>>8110095
>why waste resources on somebody who won't reproduce
Why would reproduction matter to you if you're emotionless?

>>8112875
>It's a byproduct of wanting to fuck and make children.
Does not compute. You can fuck without having children, and that's the only natural urge related to reproduction that I'm aware of.

>>8112886
>Not her but honestly I'd be pretty devastated too and I'm not a misandrist in the slightest, in fact I adore men.
Could it be that you adore masculinity and not men?
Nothing wrong with being a cute little faggy boy you know. How do you feel towards that "style" or "identity"? I bet you hate it for some reasons of internalized homophobia / (internalized) disgust towards effeminate men.

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>>8112837
fuck this makes too much sense

wish i wasn't gay even harder now

>>8112896
You ever fuck a girl before? The amount of times I want to fucking SPLOOGE ALL INTO HER OH MY FUCKING GOD THAT WOULD BE SO GOOD and then stop myself because I don't actually want children with this women happens... well everytime. It's only human to want to reproduce.

>>8112875
>Sometimes you just are restricted to one for reasons out of your control (like economically).
If you're in that position it means your lineage has basically failed anyways and a gay kid is just a mercy kill to an already doomed bloodline.

>>8112857
>Because it would mean that HSTSes really ARE just faggots and it's not just a meme, and it would probably mean that I'm just a straight man,
Gender identity theory already says mtfs are men.

>all the shit that me and my friends have to put up with from them,
What shit?

>>8112904
>If you're in that position it means your lineage has basically failed anyways and a gay kid is just a mercy kill to an already doomed bloodline.

You're picking apart a story that was made up to be simple, further complicating it. Stop projecting about your doomed bloodline.

>>8112891
It's necessary for survival of species, so some underlying biological programming.

>>8112896
>Could it be that you adore masculinity and not men?
C-Can't I adore both?

>Nothing wrong with being a cute little faggy boy you know.
But I never even felt like a boy in the first place.

>How do you feel towards that "style" or "identity"?
The cute little faggy boy you mean? I don't really have any strong feelings toward people who identify or like that style. It's just not for me.

> I bet you hate it for some reasons of internalized homophobia
No way. That's a big assumption. I have absolutely nothing against homosexuality, in fact I rather enjoy watching cute gays or cute lesbian relationships in the open, I find it cute.

>disgust towards effeminate men.
Nah

>>8112905
>Gender identity theory already says mtfs are men.

As opposed to what other theory?

>>8112853
Oh no. I'm not saying that. But I am saying that someone's sex is a contributing factor to which distribution curve they may find themselves on in regards to different characteristics like height, and other anatomical characteristics like weight, hip to waist ratio, and yes even brain mass.

Now I do think it is an illogical leap to make to then go on to say that all men and women must behave a certain way because their brains make them behave that way. Simply observing men and women who don't behave in accordance with prescribed notions of gendered behavior would disprove that. However, I wouldn't be surprised if certain behaviors are not more likely in the one sex versus the other and that there could be a physiological reason for such.

For example men tend to commit much more violent crimes than women. While it may not be the sole or even main factor in why this is, higher levels of testosterone in men may contribute to this. Now obviously it can't be testosterone alone that causes this because the overwhelming majority of men have the same or similar levels of testosterone but still don't commit violent crimes. But it may be a factor that explains some of the difference between the rates of violent crime in men and women.

I guess overall what I'm saying is treat each person like an individual regardless of sex, just don't be surprised if some patterns and differences in behavior arise and seem to have a different distribution of likelihood depending on sex.

>>8112908
>You're picking apart a story that was made up to be simple, further complicating it.
No. You can't just whine about muh lineage, blame the sole gay kid and ignore how the rest of the family were actually the ones who fucked up in the first place.

>>8112919
Caring about that is based on emotion

>>8112886
>and this test ""proving"" that trannies aren't actually a thing
Wait how does it do that?

Your dysphoria doesn't change whatever it says.

>>8112941
I wouldn't blame him for anything, it's probably ain't his fault. I would just be disappointed in general.

DISAPPOINTED AT THE STARS

>>8112856
>we're ridiculously over-populated.
[citation needed]

>>8111636
So men commit more crime? Sure, that makes perfect sense, how does it relate to the "patriarchy" though?

>>8112837
>raise a gay kid
>get sad over no grandkids
karma

the only sad thing if if they project their self-hatred on their son.

>>8112944
Dysphoria with no physical origin is simply delusion, and under those circumstances, trannies (delusional faggots, and worse, straight men) should be exterminated.

>>8112923
>>8112971
You're good at ignoring questions aren't you?

>>8112942
I believe you're stretching the definition of emotion way too far there.
Do you consider eating out of hunger to be based on emotions too? Because in the described scenario it wouldn't be much different.

>>8112964
I think you misinterpret the post

>>8112927
I agree with most of that, including the conclusion

You say it can't be testosterone "alone" that causes that statistical difference. But if it's not T alone, then it's not T causing it. It's a different cause, with which T is involved. For example, the cultural way in which anger is dealt with could be such that it's more likely to lead to violence in higher T people. The cause there is the culture and how it interacts with T, not the T, despite the statistical outcome.

Also stats about violent crimes are questionable since violent crimes by women are often ignored.

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>>8113018
>violent crimes by women are often ignored.

80% of people arrested for violent crimes are male.
Are you suggesting that this is due only to female privilege?

>>8112985
Those have nothing in common. If you stop eating, you will die. It's a necessity. Caring about what happens to your species is empathy, and empathy is an emotion. If everything you do is based on logic instead of emotions, then you're not going to care about anything that happens after you die

>>8112870
>This basically proves AGP trannies simply have internalized misandry.
many of us think men are superior and out of low self-esteem think we aren't worthy to be men.

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>>8113082
>Caring about what happens to your species is empathy

no

em·pa·thy
ˈempəTHē
noun
the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

>>8113018
There are two ways to look at the possible link between testosterone levels and rates of violent crime commission, on an individual basis and on a population wide basis. The only useful one in my to look at is on a population wide basis.

I suspect Testosterone levels are a factor among many other things in whether a person commits a crime or not. Hormones, testosterone included can affect mood an emotions of people. An interesting read, is to read articles written by women who for some medical reason take testosterone. In the articles at least they talk about noticing changes in their mood and temperament. They felt quicker to anger and higher levels of anger. They reported higher sex drive, they say that people that knew them thought they were more argumentative and competitive. So if testosterone levels can affect mood it seems that if one is more likely to be get angry and to have higher levels of anger, it would mean that at least for certain violent crimes they would be more likely to commit them than if they had lower levels of testosterone. I can imagine a situation where but for the higher levels of testosterone an individual person would not have reached a sufficiently high enough level of anger to commit a particular crime. In fact I would be very very confident that this has occurred, however I think on an individual basis it is impossible to confirm. Now there may have been additional causes or factors, like how that person deals with anger, but testosterone could still be a cause.

Now ultimately it is the individual himself or herself that is responsible for whether or not they commit a violent crime or any type of crime because humans beings have free will and can chose to act in a certain way or not act in a certain way, however free will doesn't mean humans are not influenced by their emotion.

>>8113061
Is that what I said?

>>8113178
i'm asking for clarification

>>8113223
It's not what I said and it's not what I was suggesting.

>>8113228
>the cultural way in which anger is dealt with

then why bring up the idea that violent crimes by women are ignored? (without a citation)

>>8113262
What are you asking? That quote was nothing to do with the fact women get away with violent crimes.

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34“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

35For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

36And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.

37Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

>>8113262
Not the person to which you are responding but tracking ignored crimes is tough to study because by definition they are ignored and unreported.

To cite an individual example if you remember the Ray Rice case, (football player who punched his fiance in the elevator) she actually committed crimes first. She struck him and spit on him multiple times. Now I'm not saying this excuses his reaction. But his reaction does not legally justify her previous actions.

>>8110195
>>8110153
Religion is outside science and material world. That's why science can't replace religion or philosophy, but it could replace alchemy and astrology. Values are determined in our minds, the physical world ("biological engineering") does not have to affect them in any way.
Not a christfag, but you can't say that something is right or that something "should be" done just because nature says so (nature doesn't say anything).

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>>8113288
>women get away with violent crimes
Source?

>>8113330
>>8113304
Was she charged, was her assault even recorded as a crime?

>>8113343
No, no judicial action was taken despite the police and prosecutors being in possession of direct evidence of her violent crime. If no action is taken the this event doesnt get recorded as a violent crime statistic. Again despite their being direct evidence of the crime.

>>8113370
Yet feminists still try and pretend female privilege doesn't exist.

>>8113370
>slapping, spitting
>violent crimes!

jesus, you people are pathetic.
that's like saying a baby is violent when it throws a toy

>>8113388
t. reason why women get away with violent crimes

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>>8113412
if they aren't actually hurting anyone then maybe they don't need to be taken seriously as crimes?
>cries and pulls hair violently

>>8113443
>tumblr gif
You have to go back

>>8113443
I agree with anon we should ignore this direct evidence of violent crime that is probably part of an ongoing pattern of violence committed by this woman against her fiance.

>>8113476
Is it really any of our business?
If he was really being hurt he could probably lay her out.
Should we intervene when a gnat bites a lion?

>>8113492
Women should be killed if they do any kind of violence against men. Even a fucking pinch should warrant the gallows.

>>8113492
>>8113503
Punching someone once because they continually spit and strike you is not an unreasonable response. If a man had been doing the exact same actions to Ray Rice as the woman, no one would think twice about what Ray's response was.

And if you want to talk about potential damages, what if the slaps intentionally or unintentionally turn into scratches across the face. And her nail scratch one of his eyes and he loses a significant portion of his vision in that eye because of that? That would literally jeopardize tens of millions of dollars of earning potential for him.

There is this odd idea floating around that women should be able to legally attack men and face no repercussion from the legal system or otherwise.

>>8113521
I wasn't joking. It's inexcusable for something as lowly and heinously disgusting as a female to inflict violence upon a man.

>>8113527
Got it. It is not uncommon for many to fall back on sarcastic straw man attacks when they only thing backing up their position is their feelings.

>>8113503
Bit over the top? Just punish them severely and take away certain freedoms.

>>8113537
>feelings are a bad thing to base your position on

Why are feminists so vile?
>>8113443

>>8113554
>feminists
*women

It's not just feminists anon, it's all women, every single one of them. Your mother, your sister, all of them are your enemies and the sooner you realize this the better.

>>8113546
Got it. You would make a great attorney. "Ladies and gentleman of the jury, I know the judge previously admonished you that your duty was to unbiasedly determine whether the facts and evidence presented in trial met the legal standards that the state was required to proved to convict the defendant. I know defense counsel will remind you of the oath you took to do just that. And I know that all of you will read the pattern jury instruction which tell you what the law is concerning this case and what standards you have to meet. But, I'm asking you to ignore all that and use your heart. Your feelings will tell you what is right and wrong. Ignore the law! Do what feels right. I will now sit down and await my disbarment."

>>8113566
>using SA/Reddit tier lame sarcasm as an argumentation technique
GTFO and kys

>>8113569
What are you talking about there is a bright future ahead for that person. They can market themselves as the lawyer that puts feelings ahead of the law. Emotional responses to stimuli over legally possible and probable outcomes. This will be huge in certain areas.

If my son told me he wanted to become a girl I'd give him testosterone injections while telling him it's estrogen. Then I'd milk his dick every day to remind him what he would be missing if he chopped it off. Nothing like a proper handy from daddy to make you think twice. The test would make him rock hard too

>>8113616
>I'd milk my son's cock
Fuck off pedo

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>>8113616

>>8113561
What about myself???

>>8113644
Are you an actual woman or just a tranny?

>>8113647
Just a tranny...

>>8113652
Then you're a male and not a cunt demon.

>>8113628

I would just be showing him it's okay to pleasure his penis and he doesn't need a vagina. Might need to milk his prostate too so he sees he can get pleasure similar to a vagina without mutilating himself

>>8113679
I told you to fuck off.

>>8113657
So I'm not as bad as real women? Can I still be a tranny though?

>>8113687
I mean being a tranny is retarded but it's not as harmful to society as being a woman so I don't care really.

>>8113616
Too high test = body converts to estrogen

>>8109770
It's screwed up, it's unnatural, and it happens more often than most think.

I watched it happen to my niece, then to me by my closest sibling just last year. We both grew up in a very conservative, repressed environment but neither of us imagined our family would take the pearl-clutching fundie mania this far. And we live in first-world, middle-class areas. I still love my family deeply, but it was an unbelievable thing to have to stomach.

The most amazing part was listening to them go on an on and on about it in the living room as they crafted up this fake "prodigal daughter" narrative to make themselves feel better about her "succumbing to the perverted culture."

KEK.

Never be surprised by how much more important self-righteous snobbery and "being right" is to religious extremists. No matter how sensible and loving they appear to be.

Pulling even one card loose by asking them to consider whether every little thing they were taught growing up is 100% literal gospel is enough to bring their entire, card-house identity toppling down as far as they're concerned, and they'll use whatever confirmation bias they can to deny reality. It's something they were taught to do since before they learned to read. That type of fear is some strong Kool-aid, anon.

This is coming from a socially open-minded Christian gay, for what it's worth. Call me a hypocrite, but I'm definitely not a backstabbing theocrat who pulls mental gymnastics rather than teat others with decency and respect.

>>8109770
Nah, I think it's more a problem with being close minded and being so selfish they cannot see a deviation to their world view. A lot of theist parents accept their lgbt children, atheists in backward countries still deny lgbts. I would know, I live in one of those Muslim majority country. Atheists here still hate lgbts.

>>8109807
>gays are biologically inappropriate

I believe if they were biologically inappropriate to the human species objectively, they wouldn't continue to appear in the population at relatively the same rate generation after generation, no matter how much unnatural religious/political pressure is placed on them. Either they're the result of some decrepit social fantasy (disproved) or they're healthy for the gene pool in some indirect way.

Also, if 5-10% of the total population were suffering some inappropriate degeneracy, we'd be in a lot of trouble since natural selection hasn't done its job and pruned off such a common (albeit minority) sex drive. And those who still end up having children are just as likely to be healthy and have competitive genes to continue.

As it is, nature relies on a balance of large tribal connections to raise successful children while population numbers are kept in check.

>>8113690
>I mean being a tranny is retarded but it's not as harmful to society as being a woman so I don't care really.
goat ally post

>>8113741
>rather than teat others
kek

seriously tho, arguing with brainwashed people is pointless

>>8109770
Seeing as I'm closeted and in one of these families, it's very real and very shitty

>>8113752
>they're healthy for the gene pool in some indirect way

like the appendix.
and peacock feathers.

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>>8112856
>I'd rather adopt a normie kid that would otherwise have to grow up in an orphanage
Good luck finding a kid to adopt when even heterosexuals aren't breeding anymore either.

>we're ridiculously over-populated
True, but unfortunately the most barbaric and ignorant bottom of the barrel people in the world, the ones who really should stop breeding, never will.

>What the fuck is people's obsession with "continuing their lineage"?
If you don't pass on your ideals and values then they die with you. The people reading this board today may very well be the last people who enjoy the privilege of sexual freedom. If high-IQ people with liberal values don't pass on their high-IQ genes and freedom-loving sentiments to the next generation then the future of America and Europe in 100 years or less probably looks something like pic related. I can promise that these fine intellectual gentlemen don't share the sentiment about curbing the population growth. Think being born a sensitive high-IQ person is hell? Imagine being born in a run down Islamic hellhole.

>>8113839
>If you don't pass on your ideals and values then they die with you.
what are books

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I will give you the succ for money

>>8114046
Cara, stop pretending to be HSTS.

>>8109770
A tranny in the southland here - it's mostly narcissism. They believe they'll be shunned by their friends or god or w/e so instead of caring for you they try to cover their own ass.

Basically they believe they'll get more out of fucking you over than by caring/loving you.

>>8113837
>like the appendix

So what--homos are vestigial? They aren't slowly disappearing so that's kind of a dumb analogy. I tried to laugh--honest.

>and peacock feathers

Why yes--that's actually a great analogy.


Without Peacock feathers, a male Peacock is a delicate cuck with zero mating appeal and no way to ward off hungry predators. Thanks for reminding me that gay men are a straight man's best friend and an essential blessing, because we know exactly how to lure in the right type of woman his way. We're not just a faghag's best friend. We see things hets don't.

And, despite old misconceptions, we also make for ruthless backup in dangerous situations because we've been forced to fight off douche bags, stay alert and show zero weakness (with the exception of fems). In fact, most gays I've met are very group-oriented people.

And even if we didn't do any of these things, I still wouldn't give a shit. I'm not just an orbiting side-gay.

All we ask in return is for high quality craft beer and wine...and for straights to keep their little shitheads in check.

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>>8114094
Gimme dicc now senpai i hunger

>>8112903
I think maybe you've watched too much impregnation porn.

Also how about you use a fucking condom or other contraceptives instead of risking getting a woman pregnant you fucking moron.

>>8112921
>But I never even felt like a boy in the first place.
There's no such thing as "feeling like" a boy. If you have benis, you are boy. Not rocket science.

>The cute little faggy boy you mean? I don't really have any strong feelings toward people who identify or like that style. It's just not for me.
>It's just not for me.
Maybe learn to love it, as it's who you are? I mean even if you have anatomy related dysphoria and do something against it, that doesn't change your sex. Why the obsession with refusing a label that accurately describes what you are, in real terms?

>>8113140
So misandry towards men like yourself. Which is why you can't accept being a man. Grow the fuck up sempai-san-chan-sama-tachi DESU.