It took a lot of courage to be a woman and trans at the women’s

This stuff is honestly quite strange to me. Im a trans woman and consider myself feminist and i have no problem with vagina stuff. Like yea womens reproductive rights are important doesnt mean we arent also important. We both are! Why are so many trans women cray about this?

>>8055806
This is the most hilarious thing I have ever seen

>>8055812
Because those ones are actually males who are pretending to be women for selfish reasons


Btw 12 YEAROLD AT THIS KIND OF PROTEST????

>>8055812
It also slights transmen to cast menstrual/vaginal/ovarian medical needs as exclusively women's health issues
It is more than one kind of insensitive

>>8055857
Why not?
If youre not aware that vaginas exist by the time youre 12 it means you have shit parents and/or public education failed you

>>8055812
For me, it's because I know that most of those girls don't give a shit about trans women, and also because I'm mad jealous of their vaginas and periods and childbirth and such. But I'm sure I'll calm down a little bit after SRS, basically I'm jealous of everyone and criticize their stuff until I get to their level, then I'm like "yeah vaginas are so cool, am I right?"

>>8055863
Thats fair, but im sure thats not the intention. There can be visibility for all three groups.

>>8055863

Fuck off with your "but what about the t-trannies?" bullshit. Reproductive rights is a women's issue and always has been.

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>>8055901
Uah no you can fuck off retard, men get pregnant as well.

>>8055940

How many women have gotten pregnant across human history? How many men have?

>>8055812
>why are so many trans women cray

>>8055867
>Thats fair, but im sure thats not the intention
Just because it's not malicious doesn't mean it's not harmful.
The perception that people without vaginas aren't "really" female hurts transwomen, full stop. It's part of why they get murdered, it's why masses and lawmakers alike think that for transwomen to be grouped with other women basically anywhere is a special privilege that they probably don't deserve. It's part of some of the most urgent problems transwomen face. So excuse me if I'm not too forgiving when the activists who are supposed to know and care the most about the mistreatment of all women everywhere didn't mean to enable those problems.
>There can be visibility for all three groups
There are ways of talking about these issues that don't leave anyone out, and I don't think it's too much to ask to expect feminist activists, of all people, use the most sensitive and inclusive jargon possible

>>8056074

>people have to ignore and outright change biological facts because muh feelings

>>8056084
This is another big part of why I don't give the benefit of the doubt to feminism that excludes trans people: When the issue is pressed, you get pushback from people who don't think transgender issues are all that important or relevant to feminism anyway.
Not everyone who forgets about transwomen really wants to include them.

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wtf lol

>>8056074
You will never know what it's like to be a 10 year old girl and fear one day that you will become pregnant and have no way of getting it out of you because abortions are illegal.
You will never have all the worries and hopes that little girls have about sexuality and pregnancy. These are essential experiences to being a woman. Even some sterile women and intersex women will have these experiences (assuming they don't know they are sterile).

It's not your brain or your body that prevents you from being a woman. It's that you only share a small subset of the life experiences that turns a girl into a woman. Maybe you're no longer a male but you're not a female.

>>8056171
We don't need your straight guy opinions in all of these threads, it's really starting to get annoying. Who even decides what's "essential" to being a woman?

>>8056179
go to sleep pretendbian

>>8055806
lol no one cares faggot.

>>8056191
Never, sleep is for the weak. Yeah I've been up all night shitposting, this is my board, who cares. You still haven't answered my question.

>>8056205
Why do YOU get to decide what's essential for a woman? He has one definition, you have another. What if you're wrong and he's right?

>>8056179
It's self evident that concern for reproduction is an essential aspect of going from girlhood to womanhood. It's the one thing butch dykes, ftm, and straight ciswomen share.
and lol as your
>who decides that
bullshit.
That's like asking "who decided red meant red". You don't have a fucking option in what is essential in your social-linguistic community. And you REALLY don't have an option when the social-linguistic category is an emergent property of biological properties like reproduction.

>>8056084
Feminism has always run contrary to "biological facts." It wasn't so long ago that women were considered "biologically" incapable of voting. It has always been premised upon the idea that a person's anatomy should not be treated as their destiny. That someone who can become pregnant and bear a child should not have to if they don't want to. I'd like to hear how any of you think it's fair and feminist to expect everyone to live by the gender identity assigned to them at birth according to their sex

>>8055812
Because framing women's marches as "Vaginas Speaking" is a TERF idea for the express purpose of upsetting trans people.

You'll find that if you're trying to insult someone, it almost always works, even if your insult is really stupid. Intent matters.

>>8056250
Look, what do you want, concretely? Do you want access to medical care for transition? Sure, knock yourself out, I think you can do whatever you want with your body. Do you want to use the women's bathroom? Because I think gendered bathrooms are silly and they should all be neutral, yes, I think you should be able to pee wherever you want.

So what do you want besides that? Do you want me to call you a woman? Do you want me to "feel in my heart of hearts" that you're really a woman? You can't legislate people's feelings.

>>8056242
It's also ironic as fuck that you are refering to me as a he.
I said that an argument from experiential authenticity shows transwomen can't be women
You then argued that I'm (a) a man and implicitly lack experiental authenticity to talk on this subject (b) the argument from experiential authenticity is false due to (fallacy of not drawing the line).

Why can't I suddenly adopt the perspective of a woman and write as a woman? Are you saying I have to meet some kind of criteria? That there are essential properties to speak as a woman?

>>8056261
But Christians like you have legislated people's feelings for thousands of years? Legislating feelings is the original reason legislation was invented, and it always works every single time?

>>8056171
If someone told you that you aren't a womab because you have not and cannot experience something they consider "essential" to womanhood, would you agree with them? Would you feel it was entirely their decision to make and that you had no say in the matter? Would that seem fair to you?

>>8056242
I guess what I'm saying is that, because these definitions are so arbitrary, why should they be used to bar anyone from any "space", or invalidate their identities? Why is "childhood fear of pregnancy" more essential than the many places where cis and trans experience overlap? I guess I just don't like when guys step in and try to put more wedges in between women, as if we don't have enough problems.

>>8056247
Are you really going to try and pull out "social-linguistics" as if it helps you? Social-linguistic definitions of gender actually help us, I was confused by your post because it seems like you support emerging definitions of sex and gender almost.

>>8056261
I think this is exactly the right attitude. Breaking gender norms is fine. But to go around the world upset at women for wanting their own spaces or their own political platforms because having a uterus is a big deal is stupid. Transwomen and women can surely talk about feelings
objectified by men, or feeling awkward in puberty, but they don't have interests that are in exact parallel.

>>8056270
Sorry, I'm really fucking confused now.

I wrote this post:
>>8056242
I agree with this:
>an argument from experiential authenticity shows transwomen can't be women

I never tried to argue you were a man, sorry if I messed up and you're a cis woman.

I don't know what you're talking about here:
>Why can't I suddenly adopt the perspective of a woman and write as a woman? Are you saying I have to meet some kind of criteria? That there are essential properties to speak as a woman?

You seem to be a cis woman and arguing that transwomen can't be women, all of which is cool, but then you seem to contradict yourself.

>>8056272
>But Christians like you
I am as atheist as you can possibly get.

I know right-wing thought has been associated with Christianity for a very long time, but it's not anymore. Please get with the times.

>>8056302
What makes you think the person using reason and the woman are the same person?

>>8056261
>Do you want me to "feel in my heart of hearts" that you're really a woman? You can't legislate people's feelings.

Isn't this kind of really dumb? Yes, I would obviously prefer to be seen as myself, but you're right, I can't legislate people's feelings. Just like you can't stop people from being racist just by making racial discrimination illegal, that's just common sense. I'm not looking to change individual hearts and minds here, at least not in the way you're suggesting.

>>8056285
You don't seem to know the difference social-linguistic community and social-linguistic definition. The former is from philosophy of langauge and has to do with how language is acquired and something called 'semantic externalism'. The latter is somewhat related but irrelevant to a discussion of essentialism.

>>8056307
It's an anonymous board, hard to keep track of people. I really don't care who said what, I'm just stating what I believe.

>>8056302
Think I got confused too.

>>8056310
It fills my heart with almost a smug kind of joy to know that you guys are going to lose in the end, and that my children won't have to live in a world with your bullshit.

>>8056310
I have a miniature model of Tiamat, Queen of Evil Dragons, and even I think this post was super duper nerdy.

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>>8055864
>Why not?

>>8056324
I, on the other hand, am equally confident that I'm on the right side of history, and my children will never think that it's natural to call a man in a dress a woman.

>>8056351
God damn this is hot.

>>8056355
That doesn't even make sense, now you just sound like a conservatard. What will you do if one of your children is trans? Disown them?

>>8056324
lmao, you believe that social progress is lasting? what do you think of Turkey's fall from secularism? The rise of ISIS? Trump? Japan returning to military ambitions? The failure of South African democracy?

Trans people are setting themselves up to be social provocateurs, punching way above their weightclass. All it takes is a shift in the composition of the Supreme Court and a newsworthy case of a mtf person sexually assaulting a woman and you might not be so smug anymore.
I'm not saying that this would be a good thing. I wouldn't wish that on trans people. But don't underestimate reactionary politics or the random walk of history.

>>8056333
Well how would you answer the question?
Are there any properties that make a person a woman and not a man? If those properties exist, 'why do you get to decide' what they are? It was a schmuckbait question that I should have ignored.

>>8056398
I understand that we're not on some perfect slope toward progress, like some liberals like to believe, the ones who didn't think Trump could ever happen. But at the same time, I can't imagine some huge dramatic fall from grace for trans people at this point, you could have said the same think about gay folks back in the day, and everything turned out... uh, mostly okay..... Sometimes things just take more time than they should.

>>8056398
That's ridiculous. There's loads of sexual assault already happening. Hell, women are going to jail for pedophilia these days, which is a damn good thing. You go to any liberal city (which is the norm in cities) or college town and you'll find an incredibly accepting community. That's not going to change no matter what you think. There will be places for trans people like my girlfriend for a long time to come.

>>8056391
>What will you do if one of your children is trans? Disown them?

That depends. Is my child a hon?

>>8056455
Cringe

>>8056261
>Look, what do you want, concretely?
>Do you want me to call you a woman? >Do you want me to "feel in my heart of hearts" that you're really a woman?
>You can't legislate people's feelings.
You don't need to "feel in your heart of hearts" that I'm really a woman to call me a woman, to acknowledge and respect my professed identity.
It is one of the first (and usually the only) things I expect from other people as a transgender person.
I believe you can and should be legally obligated to do that as my doctor, landlord, employer, co-worker, judge, police officer, etc. in the course of carrying out your professional duties, just as other identities are legally protected from such discrimination.
As an activist ally I expect it because the idea that I'm not really a woman is the root of legal discrimination and criminal violence against me that you oppose. You can't get rid of one without the other.
But as one stranger to another, I expect you to acknowledge and respect my identity because it's polite.

>>8056292
> But to go around the world upset at women for wanting their own spaces or their own political platforms because having a uterus is a big deal is stupid.
You're assuming that all AFAB people identify as female, or even within the gender binary.

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>>8056537
>there are more than two genders

>>8058516
>Pro-choice cis women and transwomen just cant get along

This is the most retarded thing I've ever read, do you think that trans women AREN'T pro-choice or something?

>>8056537
Regardless of "identity", all AFAB people are defended by feminism and allowed in female spaces, even FtMs when transwoman aren't.

>>8056305
please get with the jump off a cliff you fascist terf, i can smell the adam's apple on you you man looking ugly bitch. you've been kicked out of more bathroom than any stubble chinned man tranny i'd bet my last dime on that

stop fuckin using intersex people as a weapon to be waved at trannys, youre invalidating my womanhood because i've known i've never been able to get pregnant despite being female and fucking defective. you're no feminist, and no ally. i have the T levels of a 14 year old boy and constant cramps from a malformed uterus. im mad. i;m a throwback. i'm a animal. and i'm comin for ya. i'm gonna tie your saggy bound tits in a knot and humanely tread on your head like papa used to do with the unwanted kittens on the farm. hows that for second wave you plank faced fashy TERF bitch.

>>8058535
What reason do trans women have to be more pro choice than men?

>>8060590
The fact that most of them are leftists, and also, women are technically supposed to care about other women, even ones who are different from then (although they're admittedly pretty bad at this, just look at second-wave feminism, and TERFs).

>>8060596
>and also, women are technically supposed to care about other women,
In what way, beyond how anyway in society is supposed to care about everyone else?

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>>8055806

>>8055806
Where is their midsection

>>8068143
thats non-congenital dwarfism where the build up of hair dye chemicals weakens the bones collapses the torso creating some kind of fucked up everchild gender gnome

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>>8055806
I have an amazing amount of respect for the transwomen who were brave enoough to go to the womens marches, it took a lot of courage but their presence asserted the feminity of transwomen on a whole.

Being sad or upset about all the pussy and vagina talk is dumb though, we don't have vaginas and tats shitty but its our issue not theirs, normal women have vaginas and vaginas are a symbol of femininity and womanhood. I dont want women with penises to be normalized, I want women with penises to get the surgery they need to have vaginas.

Also seriously contrast your position with the equivalent ftm, atleast we can get a neovag- they don't get shit.