Genuine question for Genderfluid, non-binary, magical unicorn,

>>8052279
How am I defying science/reality?

>>8052279
But the science behind gender is more complicated than a binary system.

>>8052292
Do you believe that you can be what ever gender you are based on thought rather than reproductive organs?

>>8052296
Source it

>>8052296
Do enlighten me.

>>8052306
Gender != sex so yes.

>>8052321
What's the difference?

>>8052335
Sex is a biological property.
Gender is social role, cultural norms and personality traits.

>>8052355
Where does that come from? I thought Gender and Sex were synonymous.

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>>8052292
nigga-

>>8052362
It's literally their dictionary definitions. You thought wrong.

>>8052355
But then that is socially defined, not self-defined, so individual identity means nothing in face of society judging roles, norms, traits and appearance, comparing to existing roles, norms, traits and parameters.

>>8052362
No need for two different words for the same thing.

>>8052279
Because if we accept the social norms, they will influence us and propagate themselves. You can't defy social norms by accepting them. It would be better to just reject any kinds of labels, but that really isn't an option, so the best we can plausibly get away with is use labels outside of those already established by society.

>>8052306
Considering that gender's relationship to reproductive organs is correlative, not causative, I see no reason why not.

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>>8052296
hmmm no. If you want to be something other than male or female im fine with it. Just don't act like it's an innate biological drive and not an existential desire that came after some years of life and some contemplation.

>>8052355
So any masculine woman is really a man?

>>8052380
If she is masculine enough, would you ever know she isn't?

>>8052368
If that is the case, then what is stopping me from identifying as a women and joining a women-only groups?

>>8052389
Yes if she said "I'm a woman"

>>8052395
Well, sure. But still, would you treat her like one, in the face of all the masculinity?

>>8052392
Passing as a woman, of course.

>>8052376
Maybe you shouldn't act like you know it isn't and that you know all the answers because nobody does. There aren't any definite answers it's all speculation at this point.

>>8052403
How would I pass off as a woman?

>>8052380
>>8052395
Her identity, part of her cultural norms and personality traits, is as a woman.

>>8052392
Transphobic laws and your own personality traits and behavior.

>>8052403
Yes?

>>8052429
>Transphobic laws and your own personality traits and behavior.

>Excluding transphobic laws
So what you're saying is that all I have to do is act like a women and I can pass off as a women?

>>8052429
How do you know this hypothetical woman doesn't have the personality traits and follows the cultural norms of men?

>>8052454
If you are a woman socially why should you not get treated as one by society?

>>8052466
At least one major such trait/norm, her identity, is already established to be a woman's. Other traits/norms being men's doesn't mean that one can be ignored.

>>8052279
I'm not sure about the question here sparky. Can you rephrase it?

>>8052496
Okay I agree so the first statement is false; gender is not your social role, cultural norms or personality traits but your personal gender identification.
Now what's left is to discover is why people's gender identies don't always line up with what on average corresponds with their sex.

>>8052443
You sure?
Because I got treated more gently even as a femboy than my manlier counterparts.
And some straight people still wanted to get in my pants, even after I made it clear that I'm a boy, so well...
Maybe you're just weird and treats butch truck driver dykes the same way as cute girls?

Or are you saying you would treat someone differently just because they identify as somehting, regardless of their appearance and behavior?

>>8052428
I don't know! But if you figure it out, tell me, please? :^)

No, but really, if you look the part and play the part well enough, no one will really care. Even if you get outed as non-biological or dick-sporting afterwards.

>>8052529
>gender is not your social role, cultural norms or personality traits but your personal gender identification.
Wrong and I didn't say that.

>>8052529
>Now what's left is to discover is why people's gender identies don't always line up with what on average corresponds with their sex?
This

>>8052496
>Other traits/norms being men's doesn't mean that one can be ignored.
It does and it is. Matter of fact, until she activelly declares she isn't a man, she will be treated like one. And then she will probably still be treated like one or near like one afterwards.

Gender is a Social Construct. Social. Individual identity is meaningless.
Language is a Social Construct. Social. Whatever meaning you give to a word that is not what society interprets it as is meaningless.

>>8052531
>no one will really care. Even if you get outed as non-biological or dick-sporting afterwards
Unless you plan to reproduce. Then things get problematic

>>8052561
I don't know if I'm kinda totally off on my perceptions of the world, but just to be sure: Are woman intending to reproduce with other woman on woman-only groups?
Because that would be totally lewd.

>>8052279
what do you mean by "deny reality"? what reality are you talking about? Everyone has their own perspective of reality that is formed from personal experience. Just people don't conform to your version of reality or your version of what is scientific, doesn't mean that they are "denying reality"(whatever the fuck that means).

>>8052606
Two woman copulating cannot produce offspring. You need a sperm an an egg. Women can only produce eggs. You're pretty much just breaking a couple eggs to make a fruitless omelette.

>>8052531
I think the problem here is you identify treating someone like they are tough or fragile means treating them like a man or woman. I treat people as men and women by refering to them with the correct pronouns and thats pretty much it.

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>>8052653

>>8052549
>Matter of fact, until she activelly declares she isn't a man, she will be treated like one.
Yes, because those other traits matter too.

She won't be treated like a man much. Using the example in >>8052392 she'll still get to join women-only groups.

>>8052678
>she'll still get to join women-only groups.
Do you know why women-only sports teams exist? One reason is because men are biologically stronger that women. Wouldn't that be cheating if a trans-woman joined a women's team?

>>8052653
It is that too, in a way - after all, the societal convention is that toughness is a masculine trait and fragility is a feminine trait, backed by biological factors.
But it also isn't just that - after all, taking the super-masc girl as an example, she would be identified as male in the absence of her own input, and would require to declare to every single person she meets that she is, indeed, female, for them to even acknowledge it.
It isn't just about fragility and toughness - you can be a fragile guy and a tough girl and still signal your gender correctly. But you absolutely can signal you gender incorrectly, and then your identity doesn't mean much to people who don't know your pronouns or don't care to use them.

>>8052678
Can I play the "different standards" card, here? Because, sure, she would. I guess. But then she would also be able to join man-only groups as long as she didn't say she is a she, and maybe even after.
While, on the other hand, if we take a "perfect mtf" as an example, she would be weird in man-only groups, and okay in woman-only,
And if we take a non-passing mtf as another example, she would be weird in man-only groups and super weird to forbidden in woman-only groups.

>>8052538
>Wrong
Debatable
>I didn't say that
The first statement whoever said it stated gender was social role, cultural norms and personality traits.
I said this would mean someone who calls themselves a woman but has all of the above traits in line with a man must be a man.
You said her identity as a woman means she shouldn't be labeled a man so unless you mean to label her something other than a man or woman her personal identification seems to be the deciding factor of her gender being "female".

>>8052707
I don't even know what we are discussing at this point. That people who identify themselves as a woman can get called sir if they look like a man? You even said yourself though that they would be gendering her incorrectly not that it makes her a man.

>>8052420
by that same measure, gravity is also just speculation, as is the curvature of the earth.

>>8052806
That it doesnt't matter if she identifies as a woman, if she looks enough like a man and walks into the woman's bathroom, weird things will happen.
That it doesn't matter if he identifies as a man, if he looks enough like a girl and walks into the man's bathroom, some old guy will apologize and walk back out and recheck the door and walk back in looking all confused and that is kinda funny but also weird.
And vice versa.

Sure, they would be gendering her incorrectly - based on her self-perceived identity. But society does not care, they look the signals, they interpret the signals and derive meaning out of it.
By all practical purposes, for society, she would be a man - and gender is a social thing.

>>8052806
>>8052865
>makes her a man
And, like, it is hard to say, objectively, if something makes or does not make someone a man or woman, gender-wise, society-wise.
It is signals and symbols, like language. A word can mean a thing, but it can mean another thing in a different context, and its meaning can change through times, and in the end it is all based on subjective collective consensus.

You tell me that a nonpassing mtf is female, well, maybe it is true. Maybe some research will prove it eventually, maybe it won't, maybe it will prove the contrary, I don't know so I can take your word on it. But you tell me its gender is female, and try to act on that statement, in the practical world of what is and not of what should be, and all sort of problems will arise.

>>8052861
In what world does the evidence for the existence of gravity and the curvature of the earth equal the evidence we have for whether being transgender has a biological basis or not?

>>8052296
yes, but everyone already knows that
>he is femenine
male and female are just a way in wich we categorize gender based on biology and whatever
you dont see transgender turtles do you?

yes you can possibly fall somewhere outside the m/f "spectrum" but thats also acknowledge by science
the brain of people with dysphoria is different than those without for example, being gay is a thing that exist also
if you people want to add to the current gender theory then go ahead, show you sources or whatever
but dont twist science to fulfil your selfish need for attention

Society isn't very accepting. Trans people had to fight hard to have their identity validated, and so do we. We're not creating new norms by any means, many people think it's weird. and we aren't undermining science.