/lgbt/, it's time to decide under what conditions we can

>>7983469
OP here, I'll just clarify that by "designed" I mean the gender they identify as, not their gender assigned at birth.

>>7983469
>Dave Muscato

Wow, don't you mean Danielle?
Ruuuuuuuuuuude

>>7983469
if you live full-time in the opposite social role to the one you are assigned at birth (passing is not a requirement, but makes that a lot easier and safer), you are trans
if you plan on doing so but have not yet, you are what is best described as 'aspiring trans' or 'pre-trans'
this is the most consistent definition i have found

>>7983528
>'aspiring trans' or 'pre-trans'

That means the same as being a space cowboy right now.

>>7983516
Don't you mean TotalBiscuit?

My personal rule is this: if they're on hormones or presenting as the sex they're transitioning to then I will call them by a preferred name or pronouns, out of politeness, but I don't truly consider MtF women until they get the surgery. I don't expect transmen to want their surgery or get it for me to be able to respect them as a man simply because I personally think ftm bottom surgery is shitty enough that I wouldn't get it if I were an ftm. I only hold mtf to the surgical standard because the surgery is alright and a significant portion of mtf who keep their dicks do so because they're fetishists who shouldn't be seen as trans.

T. MtF

>>7983807
> I only hold mtf to the surgical standard because the surgery is alright and a significant portion of mtf who keep their dicks do so because they're fetishists who shouldn't be seen as trans.
What about those whose insurance doesn't cover SRS and would rather prioritize other surgeries needed for passing?

>>7983807
The problem is it's mostly hons who get srs and prioritizing it over ffs is pretty much the mark of a true hon. So I doubt I or many would consider you anything but a man given that you're willing to frighten girls with your face.

True passing without makeup or clothes or long hair is probably what's needed for recognition. Otherwise crazy AGP hons like you slip through the cracks. Srs is good but secondary to that.

>>7983807
>literally a Susan's hon who would rather get his srs than ffs
Oh wow, we got those here!

>>7983890
SRS is totally covered here while FFS is still coming out of my pocket so I may as well get SRS whenever, but you're right that FFS is more important. Nobody sees SRS and it has no pertinence to the premise of presenting female while FFS helps.

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>>7983933
>>7983807
>gets SRS before FFS
Oh hey hon. I hope your wife is happy with the results.

In my view, I'll respect your identity, but I won't say you're just like me and other early transitioners.

If you present as male, balding and with a beard, that's gonna give you a boost. If you don't medically transition, then don't try to fucking talk to me about what it's like because you have no idea how hard it is.

Same thing with late transitioners. If you're a rich businessman who comes out at age 50, sure I respect your struggle, but you've had a fuckton of privilege that I've never had.

>>7983975
how early is early though?

>>7983933
>Nobody sees SRS and it has no pertinence to the premise of presenting female
excactly so you have a huge number of manfaced hons who get srs before ffs.

God how weird are you, even the femboys are more girl than you.

>>7983975
But you're probably late and we've seen dozens of manfaced sixteen year olds. You should probably save for ffs hon cause that overconfidence only frightens women.

>>7983987
All the femboys look like ass in their thread though

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The line is very clear. If you pass you are a woman for all intents and purposes. Nobody can take that away from you wothout prior knowledge.

If you're trying your best nice people can treat you as female out of kindness but you should still move towards passing.

End if discussion.

>>7983975
>sure I respect your struggle
Why? Where's the struggle in brown-nosing through the corporate ladder and making shitloads of money your entire life because everyone takes you as just another successful straight dude instead of, say, coming out to retarded bigoted parents at 16, getting thrown out of the house and sucking cocks for a living?

The only struggle someone *suddenly* coming out at 50 as a "gurl they've always been, trust me" is whether he gets the premium bonus or not.

>>7983997
Somehow I pass to people but I don't pass to myself. I can't stop seeing myself as an ugly icky guy.

>>7983987
Yeah, that's what I'm saying, but since SRS is covered here I may as well get it whenever while saving for FFS which has much more utility. It holds that no FFS means the face will always show scars from the testosterone that flowed through it across puberty unless you get FFS to change enough of those that your face becomes androgynous/feminine and your body can tip the scale.
If you have a huge body though....

>>7983998
>coming out to retarded bigoted parents at 16, getting thrown out of the house and sucking cocks for a living?
But you're still a Twinkhon then and illegitimate

>>7984008
Srs is a distraction then and equating it to legitimacy is hon logic

>>7983994
They pass better than the hons in mtfg

>>7984015
It's still better to have than not but is no substitute for FFS nor is it as useful toward the goal of transition. Actually, I can't even imagine how someone can look in the mirror, look hideous like a 40 year old man with boobs and then somehow decide "I need a fake vagina" is better than turning ugly man face into at least something that can go either way.

>>7984018
Femboys only appears to pass due to ambiguity, put them in women clothes and suddenly they're huge twinkhons like Andreja.

>>7984029
Why demand that everyone should spend their precious money on srs rather than ffs then

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>>7984035
Stop worsening my insecurities!

>>7984010
That was merely an example but very true of many of my friends, my cognitively deficient autistic friend. I actually transitioned at 12.

>>7984053
I was just saying in my case SRS won't cost anything so while I am saving for FFS if I can get the other free then I won't complain.

>>7984035
You can shame twinkhons all you want but being a twinkhon is still better than being a hon.

>>7983890
>>7983896
>>7983959
>needs FFS to pass
>gets insulted and hurt feelings that I don't respect their choice to live out their shemale fantasy by keeping their cock

Look I know FFS and your penises are important to y'all because you didn't transition until 25 when your face was already ruined after you saw a "cute sexy shemale" on pornhub, but that's no reason to project. Y'all need to sort your problems out.

>>7984129
I don't ever think I've seen anyone with a bigger hon mentality. If you had any puberty or 15+ you need ffs.

You convinced yourself that you don't need to fix your man face. That's the kind of delusion you see in reddit and Susan's

>>7984129
not everyone has genital dysphoria, and a female body with a penis is the master race combination

>>7984129
Are you retarded? No one is saying that we want to keep our penises only that having access to FFS is far more important than SRS which you aggressively misconstrued as some desire to stay a "shemale" like the defensive Susanite hon you are.

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>>7983469
If you are my friend, simply having a diagnosis and telling me about it is enough for me to consider you to be your target sex. If you're just some stranger I expect you to at least be on HRT and putting in the effort. You don't have to pass, you just have to look like you are trying to be a female. (If you aren't trying, how will I even know you're trans?) If some random is just saying he or she is trans and I don't know them I'll suspect you of being a trender and I don't want to waste my sympathy on people who are just pretending to be trans.

I am MtF.

>>7984147
Holy shit, a thousand times this. He probably thinks he looks fab & totes beuts with his obvious Chadface, lol.

>>7984007
B D D
D
D

>>7984153
And I didn't say anything about FFS initially either, y'all brought that into it because your feelings were hurt that I insulted your girltinklers/shenis/whatever your types call your manpenises nowadays.
>>7984151
>not everyone has gender dysphoria, and a fetish shemale body is the master race combination

That's nice hon.
>>7984147
It's sad your face got wrekt by puberty, but not everyone's the same, people are different.

>>7984065
What anime is this from?

>>7984168
Post a picture hon, you probably got wrecked by puberty and are slowly getting worse. You're literally quoting Susan's right now and it's sad. Complacency is what turns people like you into sad defensive hons that flip out like you do the moment anoyinng questions their passing.

You even get offended about the suggestion of surgery that would make you less honely. Haven't seen that outside of Susan's. Sad really

>>7984029
>nor is it as useful toward the goal of transition
Can you really be a girl if you're having faggot sex with your boyfriend and can't use changing rooms?

>>7984168
>puberty, but not everyone's the same
Famous last hon words. You won't even consider something that could help you. If you don't have BDD then you're an AGP hon.

Please take your AGP honess and nonstop talk about vaginas out.

>>7984168
>vagina/srs obsessed AGP hon insists ffs isn't for him

>>7983469
>Dave Muscato
I’m coming out publicly today as a transgender woman.

The new name I have chosen is Danielle, and I’m keeping my last name. I intend to transition in the near future.

From her coming out
> http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/11/17/today-im-saying-goodbye-to-my-old-self/

She literally just came out, and is starting HRT. With her age, give her 2-3 years until she resembles a woman. With heavy FFS. And a wig. Maybe.

>>7984183
Lol and you get defensive about surgery to get rid of your manpisser, which says a lot more about how much gender dysphoria you supposedly feel. If FFS is really such a big burden/excuse not to get SRS then just get a penectomy and then save for FFS it's what I did/am doing. Here I'll make a deal even, I'll post a picture of my face if you post a picture of your knobby boycock and give me one good reason why having that doesn't make you a man first.

>>7984204
Lol k post your face hon with all its camera angles. You'll still be honely. It's literally like I'm in reddit and you're one of those smug hons who doesn't feel bad so they can creep others out without shame. Wow how sad.

>>7983807
>the surgery is alright

No it fucking isn't. Both surgeries you'd have to be out of your damn mind to get. FFS is a different story but still something that should be approached with extreme caution and done only by the best.

t. MTF

>>7984204
>one good reason why having that doesn't make you a man first
mostly because a manfaced hon makes that look like nothing by comparison

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>>7984173
Kawoshin but you already made me crazier so it doesn't matter

>>7984217
>Lol k post your face hon

I will, just show that pic of your bropenis and give a valid excuse as to why having that in-between your legs doesn't make you just as much of a man as Arnold Schwarzenegger and I'll post my face and concede that your right.

C'mon, post that "qt girltinkler" that makes you so proud sweetie.
>>7984221
If SRS isn't good enough for you just get a penectomy it's what I did.
>>7984222
That's a good comeback, I like it. That said I promise you I've got an aunt with a face more manly than both of ours combined and she's way more of a woman than you'll ever be(I mean she's also more of a woman than me just on merit of being cis but that's not the point I'm trying to make) Ms. Cock.

>>7984238
>more manly
death is preferable to being a Twinkhon, your lack of shame combined with your vagina obsession will surely make you an AGP hon

>>7984200
That post is from 2014. It's been 3 years and Dave hasn't done shit.

>>7983469
I don't care enough about other people, I'll call you an eggplant and use zim/gir/dib pronouns if you want me to.
I won't waste precious energy questioning your identity when I literally don't care.

>>7983469

Trans people will never be women (or men the other way around). I don't take issue with people having surgery if they want, dressing up in traditionally female clothing if they want, changing their ID if they want, but they will never be women, and I see no reason to accept them as such.

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>>7984296
First for ass eating gir

>>7984168
>And I didn't say anything about FFS initially either,
Except SRS/FFS is often either or deal for quite a long time.

>>7983469
Actual trans people suffer from dysphoria – it's the only legitimate reason to transition and to call yourself a woman (dysphoria indicates the mismatch between one's brain and body). Dave isn't a woman, because he doesn't appear to have dysphoria – if he did, he'd shave himself at least.

>>7984238
I'm sorry i acted like a monster towards you but I have severe bdd, I hate my body and I can't acept the idea that I not my my life revolve around fixing what I hate.

You didn't deserve abuse, sorry.

>>7985494
Eh, transitioning is weird.

I've known my share of trans people with beards, for mtfs it's usually a point of contention, and they are often kinda fucked up in the head for a bit as they try to figure things out, I'm assuming this is something similar. Throw in a possible spouse or family member reinforcing "you're fine as you are, keep looking like a guy, we still love you" and not being truly accepting, and you get stuff like this, someone who identifies as mtf, but keeps the beard.

It will be a huge source of drama down the road, and until you make actual accomidations you'll be stuck in limbo.

I always call people by proper pronouns, but I still call people on this shit, and have had huge arguments with older transitions who think changing some of these things is "impossible".

>>7985959
> be mtf
> beard doesn't cause you dysphoria

Yeah, I'm gonna have to call bullshit on that.
I don't give a shit about their feelings. If you have a dick and a beard you are a man in my book.

>>7985959
>you're fine as you are, keep looking like a guy, we still love you" and not being truly accepting, and you get stuff like this, someone who identifies as mtf, but keeps the beard.
that's why I support the bathroom bills. That makes it clear that people pulling such selfish and cringey things is unacceptable. If some people get arrested along the way then so be it, it at least hurts petverts who don't care about the hurt they cause everyone, women especially.

>>7984035
My BDD is out of controll. I wouldn't dare try girl mode for risk of this happening. Even if you look cute and andro as a boy there's no guarantee that would ever translate as a girl.

>>7984238
Wait how the hell is a penectomy better tha SRS in any way?

If its gonna look weird and unnatural you might as well be able to use it.

>>7986279
I don't know but be nice, they truly belive in doing the right thing and followed it through no matter what

>>7986300
Are you retarded?

>>7985970
Anon didn't say he doesn't get dysphoria from the beard.

Remember how humans are an intellectual species that sometimes doesn't do exactly what their urges tell them to?

>>7983469
once you come out, you should start transitioning in some respect.

>>7983469
>who made absolutely no effort to present as woman,
Sure, "Danielle" is such a masculine name.

>don't change their IDs,
How do you know she hasn't?

>don't even shave their fuckin beards
Cis women don't either.

>I refuse to accept this shit idea.
You don't believe gender identity is a thing beyond presentation?

>>7983807
>who shouldn't be seen as trans.
You forgot to say why not.

>>7984155
>simply having a diagnosis
So in your mind before it was accepted as a diagnosis, and for people whose psychs gatekeep, and in countries where it still isn't, and in the future when it isn't, nobody can be trans?

>>7988621
You don't need to interpret what I said so literally.

The point is that there should be reason to believe you actually have gender identity disorder and not just faking it.

>>7988654
Maybe you could explain what you mean by actually having GID if it's anything other than a doctor's say so.

>>7988716
I'm not a neurologist, dude. All I know is that some people have GID and some people doesn't.

>>7988755
And you know it isn't a spectrum because...?

>>7988805
You need to experience clinically significant distress for it to count. Same with autism spectrum disorder.

>>7988996
In other words, an arbitrary, unmeasurable point at which it's declared legitimate. And you're happy to go along with whatever the quacks say and misgender anyone who didn't describe their dysphoria the right way.

>>7989006
If you don't experience clinically significant dysphoria then I'm sure you won't mind too much if I "misgender" you, seeing as you aren't very dysphoric.

>>7989046
Again, you're going back to what you denied at the start, taking a diagnosis as being all that matters.

If you:
>have dysphoria
>don't identify as "non-binary"
>have transitioned or intend to transition ASAP
>are putting in at least some amount of effort to pass (shaving is like, the bare minimum if you're MtF... I'm not going to take someone like the guy in OP seriously if they've got a fucking beard)

Then I'll consider you legit trans.

>>7989059
Can you explain why I should care about invoking dysphoria in people who don't really experience dysphoria? Do you actually believe that I will meet an AFAB irl who is only a little bit trans but still wants me to use he/him pronouns lest they experience dysphoria?

If they aren't dysphoric they either won't ask me to do that or they won't be hurt if I "misgender" them.

You are telling me that I'm a bigot towards a group of people that doesn't even exist.

>>7988996
Actually ASD doesn't necessitate distress.

>>7989117
If that's true then being asked to gender them correctly ought to be all the proof you need to do it.

>People on the left extreme are telling us, that people like Dave Muscato (picture related), who made absolutely no effort to present as woman, take no hormones, don't change their IDs, don't even shave their fuckin beards are women and need to be treated as such.
This shit's just fucking insulting. It's like if I waltzed around town and told everyone I'm a paraplegic.

>>7989188
Being a trans woman is not in any way like pretending to be paraplegic.

>>7989201
No but pretending to be trans is like pretending to be paraplegic.

>>7989208
She's as trans as you or I.

>>7989214

Weak bait

I kinda go by passing. A trans woman that passes,has a high digit ratio, relatively short, isn't overtly activist and primarily seeks to correct social and secondary sex characteristic dysphoria seems more legit to me.
I see transsexualism as a medical condition
and there are definitely physiological signs
of it, and usually signs present in childhood
and/ or puberty.

>>7989342
Fact. Whether you like it or not.

>>7989502
>and usually signs present in childhood
>and/ or puberty.
Only HSTS. A*P is much more hidden and parents likely won't know.

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>>7989548

>>7989548
It's only your opinion.

>>7989557
iunno. I think social intelligence can play into it too.
Like if a boy is hyper feminine and wants to be a girl but sees other kids getting bullied over similar things they can "save themselves" by hiding it away.
I don't think it's always "Parents know for HSTS and they never now for A*P" because life is a bit more screwy than that.
Also, would you consider A*P trans to be legit?
I'm not sure where I stand on that; or if I even
believe in such a strict dichotomy.

>Where is the golden mean? What are your thoughts on this?

Easy.

Looks are completely irrelevant.

There are really fucking ugly women out there who look like men, but biologically they are considered women. These are WOMEN.

There are really cute cross dressing boychiccas that make every ounce of effort to look like a woman, but biologically they are men. These are MEN.

The only people with the right to choose their gender are people born with both genitals.

Looks are IRRELEVANT.

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>>7983807
lol

this could be you

>>7989570
Also you have to consider that some parents may either just not know about trans stuff or never even consider it a possibility for their child to be trans even with obvious signs.

I have countless memories of my dad reprimanding me for acting too feminine, for example. Yet both he and my mom said they had never really seen signs (although my mom did vaguely mention how I used to act feminine only to be told of by my dad, but didn't put much thought into it being a sign of me being trans until after I had come out.)

>>7989570
>Like if a boy is hyper feminine and wants to be a girl
He's HSTS. I'll believe in A*Ps like that when I see them.

>Also, would you consider A*P trans to be legit?
That's just a matter of how you define trans.

>>7995596
>drop the T from LGBT,
But trannies are a form of mentally ill gays.

>>7983469
I say therefore i am

>Same logic

>>7995673
>he can't read
Trannies are a mental illness some gays like you have.

>>7995665
>>7995717
*hides posts*

Just how mentally disturbed do you have to be to make such posts?

>>7995816
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt

>>7995773
I'm not really saying that passing is a solution,
but rather is can generally work as a good indicator of how real a person's "transness" is.
Faces and bodies tend to reflect pre-natal hormone exposure, which directly influences gender.
Also, how would passing NOT be a "solution" to gender dysphoria?

I'm sick and tired of reading feminists patting neckbeards who say they're trans in the back as legitimate trans. Trans people have a responsibility to present themselves as their preferred gender if they want to be publicly referred to as that. You don't get to come to me demanding I call you anything.

>>7996224
>Trans people have a responsibility to present themselves as their preferred gender if they want to be publicly referred to as that.
Transphobe.

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>>7983469
>What are your thoughts on this?

He is pointing out that there should be no difference between genders.
The only reason people get upset is because there are differences between genders.
If we had a truly egalitarian society then it would not matter what sex someone said they were.
It would be irrelevant.
The fact that you are triggered by him shows that you acknowledge the differences between genders.

>>7996578
Of course I do, it's a basic cognitive process.

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>>7996670
the point is that we should treat both genders the same

>>7996699
Sexy digits. But yeah, I do treat men and women more or less equally, while at the same time I refuse to call Muscato a women.

>>7996578
Even if the sexes were 100% equal legally and socially, I'd still be upset about my body looking masculine.

>>7996578
Bdd still matters, that's why even gender notwithstanding the femboys take pills or even get surgery.

Some people would rather not be a disgusting dumb ape like you.

>>7996766
But it's not about you.
It's about Dave Muscato.
And he likes his masculine female body.

>>7996834
Except it's not female

>>7997098
Neither is yours or any other MTF's.

>>7997227
Can't produce sperm when that's they key trait for male, have a small Neotenous body with female secondary traits. It really isn't male either

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>>7997305
B-but Gender Fluid isn't real!
non-Binary is a Marxist hoax!
You have to go back!
The Wall just got 2 feet higher!

>SRS is covered
*crying intensifies*
I wish i would born somewhere where srs can be covered by insurance, or with parents who are not transophobic or AT LEAST somewhere where laws against discrimination exist...
Shit. I have much above average salary for capital of my country and still i would need 5+ year to save money for SRS even if i would be payed more...

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>>7997712
>why can't somebody else pay for me to mutilate myself? waaaaaaaah!

god, trannies are such babies

>>7997735
Why should the society pay for anything?

>>7983871
Implying Americans are people

>>7996467
I think if you're transitioning without also trying to achieve any kind of personal growth you're kinda fucked.

>>7996467
>passing
>mutilation
???????????????????????

>>7983807
>I don't truly consider MtF women until they get the surgery
You really think a frankenvagina makes someone a real woman?

>>7983998
>sucking cocks for a living?
Wait, you can do that?

>>7995773
>Only intersex people have the right to choose what they identify as. Trannies are mentally ill and need to be treated as such, not pandered to.

What about tiny beta low-T manlets who go from pathetic tiny men to pretty girls? Should they be given testosterone instead of estrogen? Both are just as bad for your health.

>>7983469
thinking that people are freaks or abominations doesn't invalidate their identity

>>7983469
Did you watch Theryn meyers interview with them? They said they couldn't take hormones because of medical reasons not because they can't be bothered.

>>8000099
How convenient. Does he have a medical reasons not to shave his beard, too?

>>7983469
Stop caring what other people are doing with their lives. Problem solved.

>>8000099
>with them
>They said they
>they can't
Do you misgender people who haven't come out or are on a waiting list or whose parents don't let them get HRT too?

>>8002679
If he shaved his beard then you would complain that he didn't get FFS and demand that he kill himself for not being trutrans and choosing to be a repulsive hon.
It is clear you just want to bitch about how other people live their lives instead of minding your own business and fixing the multitude of your own problems.

>>8002766
she*
her*

You need to "earn your pronouns".
Some people don't pass as easily but if you are sincerely trying then I'll acknowledge your identity as a transwoman/transman.

>>8002766
No, actually. If he started putting effort in his transition, I could refer to him with his prefered pronouns.