Old thread was deleted which is a shame because it was a good

>>7961448
I like this

maybe eventually women will realize that you don't lose 100% of your muscle when you transition and we'll have sane standards again

>>7961448
men compete with men, women compete with women
taking hormones and mutilating your genitals doesn't change your sex

I say MtF should be on hrt for five years(extensive I know, personally my strength dropped to the level of my cis gfs after like a year on hrt, but I could see it being different if you train and intentionally try to maintain strength after starting hrt, so five years just to be sure) before being allowed to compete with women, and FtM should be allowed to compete with men regardless of Hrt. It sounds mean and unfair but being trans is mean and unfair, that's how life is.

>>7962862
being on HRT for 5 years won't decrease your muscle mass if you're lifting the entire time

it's very different for top athletes and the average person who don't religiously go to the gym

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>>7961448
Evading a ban is grounds for a permenant ban

Sage and report, purge this evasion everyone and deny pedo any discussion

>>7962856
Except whats in someone's pants or genetics isn't why we separate sports based off sex so that's just stupid lol.
>>7962873
You don't think it would at all? Idk, it needs research on it to know for sure I think. I'm pretty sure I've read of hardcore roid monkies losing at least some strength after quitting so surely hrt must cause some strength loss.

>>7962856
You love talking about fucking don't you? Kid rapist

>>7962884
we know from studies on East German FEMALE athletes that taking steroids once will increase your shot put distance PERMANENTLY, even if you get off the steroids

you only lose some of the steroid gains, but they leave a lasting increase in your muscle fibers forever

>>7962884
>>7961448
All the sports medicine studies prove there isn't any muscle or bone mass advantage for mtfs
http://jrci.cgpublisher.com/product/pub.301/prod.4/m.2/fid=1836884/R15_47780_RaceTimesforTransgenderAthletes_FinalOF.pdf

>>7962897
See >>7962909 irl isn't backing your tinfoil

>>7961448
The fact that men and women are split up into different competition is kind of dumb. Men are stronger than women, but why do we care who's the strongest of the women? Why do we care if a man takes female hormones and competes with women? Who gives a shit about cutting the population into little bits and then figuring out who's the best for their little slice?

I'm sure every single female athlete at the top of their sport has some kind of genetic or hormonal advantage over all the female athletes below her? Why not separate out all competitions by hormone levels? We can have titles like "Men's Low-T weight lifting world champion", or "Women's 100m sprint world champion, 2-4 past pregnancy classification". It's all so fucking stupid.

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>>7961448
and reported for ban evasion. Why is it that after you get banned for each and everyone of your raids. You're too fucking dumb to change your op image.

If you'd used something else you could have snuck by but you keep the same file

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>>7961448

>>7962921
Reminder that >>7961448 is the same child porn spamner who's been banned twice today.

He just picked himself up and spammed a third time.

Nobody should talk to him. Just Sage and report this thread and get him banned for his evasion again.

>>7962909
> Transgender women carry more muscle
mass than 46,XX women (Gooren and Bunck 2004, 425–429). This extra muscle mass might cause increased speed when compared to cisgender women, and hence faster times and higher AGs at shorter distances. Increased muscle mass and heavier bones are not conducive to long distance running, and would actually be a disadvantage when running distances of a half marathon and higher, causing slower times and lower AGs.

from your own source

>>7962934
Just report the idiotic pedophile in >>7961448 for being too dumb to ban evade properly

>>7962949
If you didn't read it said that after chemical castration mass in all of those crash this is why ioc came up with two years

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>>7961448
Aaand reported!

>>7962959
> Transgender women are taller and larger, on average, than 46,XX women (Gooren and Bunck, 2004, 425-429), and these differences probably would result in performance advantages in events in which height and
strength are obvious precursors to success - events such as the shot put and the high jump.

What's that? Your source says that transgender women have an ADVANTAGE in strength events? Color me surprised

>>7962897
That's probably only if you train enough to keep it up though.

>>7962971
Does this mean we should disqualify women outside of the average female height range as well?

>>7962909
yes, because being born male is totally an accident for some girls.

>>7962981
it's not just height, it's male bone structure and going through male puberty where male muscle development happens

>>7962995
>>7962971
>>7962949
>the study showed that as testosterone levels approach female norms, trans women experience a decrease in muscle mass, bone density and other physical characteristics.
You lied, the study showed you're wron on both of those claims

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>>7962971
>>7962949
>29). After one year of testosterone suppression, the subjects had testosterone levels below those of 46,XX women, and hemoglobin levels equal to those of 46,XX women (red blood cell content is very important in endurance sports). Muscle mass differences between the two groups were cut in half.
The study used athletes on only one year of hrt and says it eliminates most of the mass difference in that time
And the others said more time eliminates muscle advantage all together

Which means that people who transitioned relatively young and don't have muscle mass have no advantage
>height

You can controll for height. A skinny Twink wouldn't have any height advantage

>>7963048
>You can controll for height. A skinny Twink wouldn't have any height advantage
Transitioned mtfs should only get to compete with women if they fall in the average female height. Otherwise they have a statistical advantage.

>>7963096
So all of Femgen is now eligible for Olympic competition but 99% of female athletes now aren't cause they're too tall?

>>7963048
> Muscle mass differences between the two groups were cut in half.

Gee, I guess if they're only a bit stronger than women then it's fair.

>>7963186
From 1 year
The study duration was too ahort but the others sugest that would drop to zero

There was a trans boy here in Texas that won the girls wrestling championship because he wasn't allowed to compete on the boys team. I think that's unfair, also he was taking T to transition.

>>7963199
I suggest that it doesn't, based on female on steroids studies. Even if the difference is slight, it might be huge at the top level where everyone is already at their genetic peak performance

>>7963204
that's unfair too, a woman is not allowed to take steroids to compete, but a trans man can?

>>7962873
>i don't know biology: the post

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>>7963048
>Because having a male frame and body structure since birth cannot explain why mtf transathletes perform better than females.

>>7963219
>I have nothing to add to the conversation

http://clinchem.aaccjnls.org/content/43/7/1262.full

> In particular, the studies of GDR scientists established that “androgenic initiation” has permanent effects in girls and women: After a critical period of androgenization and an increase in muscle strength, a higher performance level is reached that does not return to pretreatment values after the drug is withdrawn

Yes they should have their own category putting tits on a man doesn't make him a women
I'll of course get hate but whatever

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>>7963217
That isn't what they found. And at any rate female mma and wrestling is already getting dominated by ftms

You even cited a picture of a FTM wining the Texas state title because he was forced to compete against women in >>7963048. But you probabaly were too stupid to see it was a ftm

Incidentally the average length of those bouts against him was under 15s

>>7963260
>being on hrt for 5 years won't decrease your muscle mass
yes, it will regardless how many androgens you were exposed to prior to taking estrogen, or how much you exercise
estrogen cannot build muscle like testosterone can
saying 5 years of hrt makes no difference is ignorant and stupid

>>7963276
I already said FTMs competing against women is stupid

>>7963284
it's going to decrease it, but NOT to pre-test levels

it's going to be somewhere in the middle

the same way that if someone who weight lifts stops lifting they'll get weaker, but they can get their strength back by getting back into it

someone who had test in their body and keeps on lifting will keep SOME of the gains even when they get castrated

>>7963260
It's not peer reviewed and their sonny sources are unverifiable soviet documents

You gave us x tire papers. Nice, have anything that isn't trash?

>>7963298
>it's going to decrease it, but NOT to pre-test levels
that post claimed you would keep all of the muscle mass despite being on hrt which is not correct

>>7963308
it didn't say all

> After a critical period of androgenization and an increase in muscle strength, a higher performance level is reached that does not return to pretreatment values

it does not return to PREATREATMENT values, but it does decrease

>>7963304
Run out of arguments? Just complain about the source

>>7963120
Obviously there would need to be consideration over whether this applies to cis female athletes too.

I'm not qualified to make that decision. It would probably depend on the sport.

I do these lifts. muscle mass is less important than skeletal structure and pubertal changes in males are permanen. pelvis, shoulders, elbows: males are literally engineered to be able to push/pull/lift more than women post puberty. the question of hormones is almost irrelevant- this person will be stronger than almost any female with the same LBM just because their skeleton gives them better leverage and range of motion to execute the lifts.

>>7963317
You gave a non peer reviewed study it's worthless. Why don't you ask about that and if anyone trusts soviet records.
Also you lied about muscle mass http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2012.11774.x/full

It wastes on cypertone and other medicines to the point where it cripples health.
>>7963308
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2012.11774.x/full
The studies all prove him wrong
The only thing he has was a non peer reviewed attempt at journalism with soviet sources

He lied to you. Best not take him seriously

>>7963333
Study said otherwise.

Cite something to prove it or knock your fake shit out

>>7963346
this doesn't say it makes men weaker than women

it just says it makes men weaker, which is what I already claimed

>>7963333
Inventing all these crazy anecdotes is exactly what people do when they don't have any legit shit.

Are you guys seriously fighting over bullshit ?

>>7963364
It says you get muscle wasting and become bed ridden. In otherwords weaker than children.

>>7963381
where does it say they become weaker than children

point that quote out to me because I can't find it

>>7961448
>literally spending your life lifting weights to kill the muscle with estrogen pills

>>7963399
Muscle wasting means immobility there's not some magical Thread hold where it stops otherwise it wouldn't be an adverse effect
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1477613/

>>7963364
Having a male skeleton gives you advantage if the muscular mass remains equivalent. So it's basically unfair. Women won't win a medal if mtf competitors are generalized.

>>7963418
>you can't win other males so you change your "gender" with pills.

>>7963441
Serves cis women right for wanting their own medals in the first place.

>>7963367
>>7963360

this is physics and anatomy 101, bro. its not remotely controversial.

http://work.chron.com/physiological-differences-between-male-female-athletes-20627.html

>>7963451
>implying there's a problem with this

>>7963514
>implying its fair to the real women

>>7963540
>implying allowing blacks to compete in the same athletics events as whites is fair on whites

>>7963431
Another example is that males have bigger ribcage and bigger lungs, (superior aerobic capacity), and it's something that cannot be modified at all. Also, having large hips makes you literally slower by a mere matter of angles. mtf's will dominate sports as "uberfrauen"

>>7963568
It isn't.

>>7963431
doesn't say it makes them weaker than children anywhere you're just making shit up

>>7963595
That affects far more men and women than a few trannies beating cis females in events nobody even cares about.

So deal with that first.

>>7963483
That's not peer reviewed, it's from some advertizing site. So you're giving us fringe junk again.
>>7963584
So anyone with a slim rib cage has none of the advantages?
>>7963666
They get hospitalized from immobility. So that means they could never do sports and anyone else could win, even children. Why do you argue with the science?