I'm going to put this out here. What exactly IS a gender?

There are only 2 genders

Because we haven't reached true androgyny as a species yet, so since gender roles are still so important it's important to make it clear what gender you closely define yourself as. It's like operating in the matrix, if you're a glitch the public at large starts to wig out on you if you don't blend in.

>>7884270
People should be accepting but they aren't. Just being trans in and of itself raises awareness, causes people to think about gender, question society and social norms and so on.

>>7884258
There's no reason for creating genders to help express who we are. Society should accept everyone regardless. Having any gender is putting yourself into a group. Each person is completely unique and unfitting for a broader category. There would be 7,489,447,162 genders if we were 100% accurate.

>>7884306
It'd be easier to abolish gender than create 600 genders, but since neither will happen, just identifying with the gender of your inclination makes the most sense

>>7884184
>I don't understand this, wouldn't you just be a female who acts like a boy?

Being a boy is more than throwing a football around, and being a girl is more than wearing dresses, gender/body dysphoria is very real.

>>7884357
Well then explain what it is and why it overrides physical sex.

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>>7884184
>All Tomboys are Dykes or Trannies
This is what makes my blood curdle
THIS is why I hate the /lgbt/ community that pushes shit on even barely-outcasts at impressionable ages in a conversion attempt to restore their non-reproducing numbers
THIS is why I hate all of the sexist men that look down on tomboys for not being "Wife Material"
THIS is why I hate all the rancid projecting sluts that look bitch and bicker about the tomboy behind their back for having genuine male friends
EVERYBODY CAN GO TO HELL

FOR
FUCKS
SAKE

JUST let fucking tomboys be tomboys and femguys be femguys. Leave them alone for fucks sake. So fucking what if there's a female mechanic that comes home to a houseband?
They do NOT need to be pressured into horomones, they do NOT need to be pressured into same-sex relationships

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>7884512
Yes exactly though. they are a "female" mechanic.

There is nothing wrong with a girl who acts like a boy. There shouldn't be an assumed social role of girls. For the most part there isn't.

>>7884488
In a nutshell your brain has a mental map of itself, for shit like placing yourself with spacial awareness, and knowing what pain comes from where. Very rarely this mental map is misaligned with the actual body, due to a wide variety of factors, and it causes significant distress to the degree of damaging their ability to function.

What's less risky? Brain Surgery on the very microscopic ridge of the end of a lobe, or slight modifications to cosmetic surgery procedures and genital surgery, and then go home and take two of these every morning.

>>7884571
The brain map/identity theory has no real evidence. It's parroted because it's politically correct, telling us we really are the sex we want to be.

>>7884596
>Saying you have a mental illness induced by a brain deformity defect is politically correct
I... What?

How do you even come to that conclusion?
Just because it's not "God said it's a sin to not kill all Queer-o-sexuals" --which is basically a mental illness of it's own, by the by-- doesn't mean that it's "politically correct"

I'm sorry anon, but you're retarded.
Oops, sorry! Let me be nicer about that.
You have a mental illness induced by a brain deformity defect

>>7884654
rekt imo

>>7884571
Is that true? Because that may change my opinion.

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>>7884750
Technically yes, it's scientifically supported, though nothing is "proven" concretely.

>>7884767
Well proof isn't important, if it is real to the person who has it, right? What exactly is BSTc?
I really don't think this is something as easy to prove as with an image like that. I'm also sure there are some cases where people just do it out of choice with no necessity.

But if it is possible for that to be true that is important.

>>7884767
I still have trouble understanding exactly what it is.
Why do people feel compelled or unsettled as a certain way and how do they feel unsettled, is it painful?

>>7884184
A spook.

>>7884767
i'll just repost this from the 'transitioning gay people' thread:
>the bstc study was fundamentally flawed in that it did not control for hormone use in any meaningful way -- though it included two people with tumours that released cross-sex hormones, both were at very low doses (far below that taken for cross-sex hrt) and for far shorter time periods than the trans women (about a year each, whereas some of the trans women were on hrt for over a decade)
>even then, the range of cis and trans bstcs nearly overlapped
>the swaab/zhou studies are no longer taken seriously by researchers finding the neurological basis of transsexualism, and have been supplanted by better, more recent research
(the 'problem', so to speak, with the better more recent research is that it doesn't have the same results for androphilic and gynephilic trans women...)

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>>7884845
To a degree it is.
Imagine being hyper aware of your body 24/7 and actually being able to passively feel the presence and position and width of your scapulas, your collar bones, how they effect your center of gravity, tension in you waist because of a fused pelvis, facial hair feeling like a mutant growth of cacti penetrating the skin of your face and upturning it into follicles, pressure on your diaphragm and kidneys from a low ribcage, your skull feel bloated as your brow ridge feels wrong, your jaw and chin feels wrong, --just every aspect of your mandible in general, your nosebridge feels wrong, the region where your teeth meet your bone plate... It's all just wrong wrong wrong wrong.

It's like the "You are now breathing and blinking manually" from hell.

Sexologist John Money introduced the terminological distinction between biological sex and gender as a role in 1955.

Before his work, it was uncommon to use the word gender to refer to anything but grammatical categories.

However, Money's meaning of the word did not become widespread until the 1970s, when feminist theory embraced the concept of a distinction between biological sex and the social construct of gender.

Today, the distinction is strictly followed in some contexts, especially the social sciences and documents written by the World Health Organization (WHO).

However, in many other contexts, including some areas of social sciences, gender includes sex or replaces it.

Although this change in the meaning of gender can be traced to the 1980s, a small acceleration of the process in the scientific literature was observed in 1993 when the USA's Food and Drug Administration (FDA) started to use gender instead of sex.

In 2011, the FDA reversed its position and began using sex as the biological classification and gender as "a person's self representation as male or female, or how that person is responded to by social institutions based on the individual's gender presentation."

>>7888539
>and gender as "a person's self representation as male or female, or how that person is responded to by social institutions based on the individual's gender presentation."
In other words, whether they receive female privilege or not.

>>7884184
Gender is having a certain set of X or Y chromosomes. XX is female, XY is male. XXY is debateable. IMO you don't get to choose a gender. However, you should just be able to dress and behave however you want. Gender ROLES are a social construct, not the genders themselves.

>>7888635
No, that's biological sex. If you'd read the post you'd know OP made clear she wasn't talking about that.

Gender as a system has always resulted in power hierarchies that oppress some and reward others, it seems like the really radical thing would not be to demand group membership and perpetuate this system, but rather realise that it does not help to group people by gender BECAUSE everyone’s identity is unique.
It is a certain privilege to have that in-group identity that comes with gender membership, as well as having the privilege to label and categorize others. People who feel threatened by the removal of gender might ask what are you actually afraid of losing? In the absence of a gender label, you will still be free to behave however you want, look however you want, ect. No part of your personality will be lost, the only thing that will be lost is using your identity to claim group membership in a system that oppresses people.

Gender is a socially constructed definition of women and men. It is not the same as sex (biological characteristics of women and men).
-Swiss Agency for Development and Cooperation

Society has determined gender to be immutable, despite being reassigned every time a person interacts with another person (when you see someone, you decide what gender they are based on how they look).

>>7888670
This is a really good explanation of TERFs.

>>7885176
That does sound pretty shit.
So glad I was born a girl.

>>7888731
Lucky you. Have sympathy for those who wish they were as fortunate.

Categorising males and females into social roles creates a problem, because individuals feel they have to be at one end of a linear spectrum and must identify themselves as man or woman, rather than being allowed to choose a section in between.

>>7885176
I disagree that the brain is capable of all that without separate issues that need to be addressed before transitioning. I question whether transitioning would even help someone with this level of BDD.

I've read about phantom limbs and problems can arise when you lose a limb, and the brain can also quickly adapt to new limbs like even robotic ones.

But how can someone feel all that which you listed? It's all imaginary. It makes more sense for an adopted child to freak out about not looking like his mother than for someone to say their brain is projecting mismatched images of the opposite sex's body over their real one. There's no substance to those projections. It might make you feel better the same way appeasing the craving of a heroin addict does.

This underlying pathology could apply to any imaginary idealized form of self. Do kids feel dysphoric for not having adult bodies yet? Do adults feel dysphoric for not having children's bodies anymore? If they did they'd need therapy, but gender dysphoria is for some reason an absolute diagnosis with only one treatment, to transition, even though the condition is so wide encompassing and may stem from many different causes, even simultaneously. Not to mention the amount of people who question and then move on without transitioning, and those who detransition as well.

There's a lot of directions I can go with your argument. And you're only explaining anatomical dysphoria. What about social dysphoria? Does a cis person who looks like the other sex get anatomical or social dysphoria over that? What if they just didn't care what other people think? If no one ever misgendered them, then they'd never think they weren't an ordinary person of their natal sex. But say they get misgendered every day, would they be better off identifying as the opposite sex to alleviate the clash between how society identifies them and they themself or having surgery to appear more like their natal sex?

>>7888779
Cont

Why should they have to change themselves to correct a problem that lies in society's eye toward them?

For these reasons I agree with >>7884306
Non binary genders will grow because as society becomes more accepting individuals wont have to confirm to specific arbitrary roles to express themselves how they think others think they should. Which is what binary trans people are doing with regard to passing.

>>7888679
>Society has determined gender to be immutable,
"Society" hasn't, the state has. The state forces doctors to assign gender, insists on putting gender in personal documentation, restricts people from changing it, and demands people are treated differently on the basis of its assigned gender.

>>7888779
>What if they just didn't care what other people think?
Men and women are treated very differently. Social dysphoria would exist even if the sexes were anatomically identical.

>>7888804
The state is run by society. One of the first things expecting parents consider is the gender their child will be.

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>>7888746
For sure. Xxx

>>7888779

> It's all imaginary.

Yes it is, but your entire concept of self is imaginary. Why does someone have to clear a perpetually-moving Bar Of Truth in order to have their basic humanity respected?

>>7888817
I agree that a better society would keep the state from supporting gendered thinking, in parents and others.

>>7888779
you don't need to disagree or question. it's been proven.

kids don't feel dysphric about not having adult bodies because their brain does not expect them to have adult bodies. maybe they would need therapy, but it doesn't matter because that does not happen to anyone (except maybe in response to trauma or non-dysphoric BDD). if someone simply does not like how their body looks, that does not mean their brain is wired differently, but the feeling of simple dislike or want is NOT comparable to dysphoria at all. dysphoric people can recognize that their body is objectively fine as it is, if only they didn't feel revultion every time they became aware of what they look like

many detransitioners do so out of social concerns or because what they thought was dysphoria was something else.

social dysphoria is a lot more complex, sure, but a big part of it is that often if for example someone is going about in girlmode, thinking of her body in terms of a woman's body and not feeling all that dysphoric in the moment, and then is referred to with distinctly male pronouns, it is a sudden reminder of what her body looks like to others and throws her violently into the feeling that the other anon described in their post. it's not so much that being called a certain pronoun sounds inherently wrong, it's something that is inherently tied with physical dysphoria.

and cis people that do get misgendered constantly don't exactly feel great about it, either. people say they don't care, but after enough time it can wear you down. but the main difference is that they likely don't actually have primary or secondary sex characteristics of the opposite sex, so if someone calls a manly looking woman "he" she doesn't feel dysphoria about her skeletal structure or body hair, etc, because there's nothing in her brain telling her that there's something wrong with her.

>>7888878
>non-dysphoric BDD
(by this i mean non-gendered, to clarify).

>>7888798
I used to think the whole 'non binary' thing was bullshit (and most likely will never call myself that) but I am fairly androgynous looking, which means half the people I meet assume they are talking to a boy and the other half assume I'm a girl. I don't correct the ones who think I am male because it doesn't bother me. The expectation of these varied responses has become so much a part of my identity that I sometimes wonder if I would start to feel a kind of gender dysphoria if I was only ever seen by society as one or the other. As I see it, there are drawbacks to being perceived as either a 'man' or a 'woman', but I get to not have to be read by others as just one thing full time. I think about this a fair bit because it seemed like all of a sudden the whole world started talking about gender several years ago and I have always thought of it as a such a private thing.

I don't think about my gender at all and it means nothing to me, I could slip into an alternate reality where I'm male and my life wouldn't change at all other than I save money on tampons.

I used to think this was normal and only trans people took note of their gender but when I think about it most cis people get triggered as fuck if they're misgendered and inverting gender norms (shaving a womans hair, making a man wear panties, ect) is literally a method of torture most people find it so important.

>>7888938
>The expectation of these varied responses has become so much a part of my identity that I sometimes wonder if I would start to feel a kind of gender dysphoria if I was only ever seen by society as one or the other.
That's really interesting. How does getting seen each way change how you're treated and expectations of you?

>>7884845
I don't agree with >>7885176 for me it's mostly about how I'm treated, not my body. I just want to be able to live like the other sex instead of getting all the social role of mine. If I got that my body wouldn't bother me so much.

>>7888731
Females can feel dysphoria too. Being cis is not feeling it.

>>7884184
A persons Sex is their chromosomes and whats imbetween their legs, Male, Female, and weirdo XXXY hermaphodites

Gender is made up bullshit by sociologists

>>7889028
Do men and women act differently and have different social expectations?

>>7884184
Gender is more or less what sex you want to be or what sex you feel more comfortable being treated as, hence why there cannot possibly be more than 2 genders. When people say to eliminate gender roles, it more or less means if you look like a certain sex, you shouldn't have to behave in some predefined manner that matches with that sex. The whole idea of gender being a "social construct" doesn't make much sense, otherwise "Transgender" wouldn't exist. Gender is just describing what sex you would like to be.

>>7888990
Thats because if you did identify with your gender you would be constantly judging your own self expressions to make sure they're aligned with your identity.

Gender is the art of human expression. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder. An artist can't see his art the same way a critic does. And he can't say the critics interpretation is wrong. In other words, you express yourself, and it's up to those who observe you to decide how to categorize or identify you.

Any single expression is not inherently masculine or feminine and can be deemed either depending on the judge. Therefore the gender binary forces the individual to succumb to social pressure by self identifying, self policing their expressions to fit what they believe will be observed as either feminine or masculine.

The thing is that there are infinite genders. One for each and every individual observation of each and every human expression. Even in the binary, people are still judged to be more or less gender conforming, and it's all subjective.

>>7888938
Yeah I feel you. I don't like correcting people either because it implies that one's gender is absolute. I can't force people to perceive me a certain way, nor do I want to.

>>7888878
>it's been proven.
I disagree that feelings need to be proved to hold merit. My objection is on transitioning being the only course of action for someone who feels that way.

>>7888829
Whats the alternative? Maybe we'll always think in terms of gender, but we can become less absolutist and more open and respectful without forcing people to conform to our opinions.

>>7888822
Exactly my point. They dont. But transitioning with the purpose of passing as the other sex is doing exactly that.

>>7888814
Maybe because people with dysphoria want to force people to treat them a certain way? There's nothing wrong with being treated differently. Just be yourself, and if someone doesn't like it, fuck em.

>>7889075
its irrelevant
individual behavior is not a label or social construct

>>7889308
Group behavior, not individual behavior.

>>7889325
group behavior is only to fit in, its nit fundammental

>>7889362
Right, that's what the phrase "gender is a social construct" means.

>>7889004
When seen as a boy, I get called mate, buddy or bro.
As a girl, it's love or sweetheart. I am glad people don't really say sir/ma'am in Australia.

I don't cop a lot of abuse but when I do, it's because they think I am a gay guy. Usually if I say I am a girl it defuses the situation but twice it's made things worse and I was threatened with rape to "check". Luckily other people heard both times so they couldn't try anything.

I don't think gay men and other dykes mistake me for a boy. Queers are more used to gender non conforming behaviour. Girls tend to expect me to ask them out, which is annoying because I find that difficult. Sometimes men realise I am a girl and occasionally hit on me just in the street which is bold as fuck and I wish girls would do this to me. Even though I am pretty flat chested, I wear a binder sometimes because I don't want my chest to be sexualised by random dudes.

Hope I answered your question. That's all the examples I can think of right now.

>>7889468
Thank you, that did answer. Interesting that besides the terms of address which are pretty minor and the homophobic abuse it's just sexual or romantic situations where you get treated differently.

>>7889205
>I disagree that feelings need to be proved to hold merit. My objection is on transitioning being the only course of action for someone who feels that way.
of course it's not the only course of action. but there is absolutely nothing wrong with choosing to do it, and it's the best solution in the majority of situations--the only times when it might not be is when someone's genetically unlucky enough that they really will never pass (and even then, hrt could still help) or when someone's social situation is bad enough that the cons outweigh the pros.

the thing is, that should be someone's own personal choice. saying dysphoria is "imaginary" helps no one.

>>7884654
>>Saying you have a mental illness induced by a brain deformity defect is politically correct
>I... What?
he had a point.

both in saying that there's no real evidence for it and also in claiming that using it as evidence regardless is motivated by the need to virtue signal and be politically correct ergo super tolerant and inclusive at all times.

the neuro evidence for transdom is inconclusive at best. as with so much in the neurosciences there's a rainbow of contradictory studies that seem to contradict each other. and with the record of past inaccuracies it's understandable to be sceptical of new studies which claim that this time they've been rigorous for real

i think perpetuating this misconception that there's supposedly hard evidence that some men are actually cute girls inside because the universe put the wrong brain in their skulls is harmful as it removes the element of personal choice to a degree. a lot of people have had homosexual experiences but most of them are 95% hetero regardless. a teenager going through some rough shit, already unstable, starting to doubt his gender identity may not be fully equipped to cope and reach the kind of self awareness and clarity that should be a given before you start transitioning, and putting more pressure on that person by making it a neurologically proven black or white thing could lead to rash decisions.

>>7889662
>contradictory studies that seem to contradict
eh, sorry, i'm tired

>>7884184
Gender describes the characteristics of your behaviour as masculine or feminine. while your sex as male or female is biological

>>7889668
but are any of them contradicted by others though?

>>7889752
they may well be

>>7884270
>there would be 7 billion genders if we are being completely accurate
>>7884306
>There would be 7,489,447,162 genders if we were 100% accurate.
Approximations are useful. They stop being useful when you start bitching about total accuracy, which is why they're not totally accurate. The issue is not with the concept of gender. It's a way of classifying people, just like race or political affiliation. The issue is with people using it prescriptively rather than descriptively.

>>7889017
Obviously females can feel dysphoria too, but anon was clearly describing it from an amab perspective... And I am cis so I was trying to empathise.

>>7884512
>THIS is why I hate the /lgbt/ community that pushes shit on even barely-outcasts at impressionable ages in a conversion attempt to restore their non-reproducing numbers
I have literally never seen the shit the OP describes. I have never seen anyone say a sporty girl must be a boy.

What the literal FUCK are you both talking about?

>>7889839
I means about you being glad of being born a girl: it's not being born either sex that's to be glad of, it's being content in whichever sex you are. You cold be male and be just as glad as long as you're cis male.

>>7884184
Genotypical sex: XX or XY
Phenotypical sex: genitals, secondary sex characteristics
Gender: Neurological driven "sense" of what sex you are.
Gender roles: How everyone expects you to act based on some combination of the first two things, and assumptions about the third.

If the third thing is out of alignment with the second thing, it's going to cause distress. Short of radical brain surgery (which we have yet to develop), it's not possible to fix. Our "fix," therefore, has become transition to alleviate the issue.

>That doesn't mean you ARE a boy or should be referred to as male and use the male bathroom.
I'm using the men's whether you like it or not. I don't really care about your internet opinion that I should freak out the women next door, ruin my kidneys, or pee my pants,

Deal.

>>7888635
No.

>>7888670
I can't get over the people who really believe we should abolish the concept of sex and gender roles. Yeah, sure thing Sparky.

While we're at it, why not abolish all other concepts that are based in biological reality? Why shouldn't we abolish "age"? Why can't a two-year-old run a Fortune 500 company? Why can't a dead man need his diaper changed?

Why do we need the concept of "species"? My dog is an INDIVIDUAL, why not consider him as human as me?

LOL, kys retard.

>>7888779
>I disagree that other people can feel things that I don't feel
>how can you be aware of your body in space, what even is that
This is a special level of stupid.

Close your eyes and touch the middle of your forehead. Do it now.

Did you jab yourself in the eye?

If "no," then you can feel exactly where your own forehead is in space. For the love of christ.

>why are trannies treated differently than my other hypothetical examples
>what is decades of research on this condition

For fuck's sake. Do you people have ANY appreciation for how tiresome it gets to listen to you?

>>7884596
It's not "proven," but it's not an idea specific to trans people. So no, not just PC at all.

>>7889922
>Genotypical sex: SRY or not SRY
FTFY

>Gender: Neurological driven "sense" of what sex you are.
Source.

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>>7889922
Best post in this entire thread.

>>7889587
I was not referring to gender dysphoria in general - only that which was discussed in this >>7885176 post.

You did provide insight on an interesting view here, >>7888878 where you argue social dysphoria stems from anatomical dysphoria. In my view I hadn't seen them as inseparable. From the personal accounts I've read I'm not convinced they are inherently tied together. There are even trans people who never had "dysphoria" but feel better in the feminine social rule, and thus feminize their appearance to that end.

So every individual transgender case is different and should be treated as such. I understand that >>7885176 was an intentionally dramatized account, but it does no good for other trans people who don't feel that way, and then think they're less trans, when imo someone who feels that intensely about their body has issues beyond what transitioning can realistically treat.

>>7889922
>Close your eyes and touch the middle of your forehead. Do it now.
>Did you jab yourself in the eye?
>If "no," then you can feel exactly where your own forehead is in space. For the love of christ.
What are you trying to get at? That a trans person's internal body map is so incongruous with their physical body that they are unable to make sense of their body's spatial location? I've never heard of this before.

It's not even what I was talking about.

How is having an internal "female" body map going to be responsible for any of the things mentioned here feeling wrong? >>7888779

You are imagining your body should be different than it is. There's no way to know for sure you wouldn't have exactly the same body even if you were cis. There are hyper masculine women, if they're cis and want to be more feminine they would be diagnosed with BDD, but if they're trans and want to be more masculine it would be gender dysphoria so suddenly it's ok to pursue a never-ending fantasy of becoming a caricature of masculinity.

The brain adapts to the body it has, I've seen no evidence of there even being an internal female vs. male body map, and the body maps we have don't work this way either. People come in all different shapes and sizes. The nervous system doesn't discriminate itself. This is the same thing as guys feeling bad about not having a 9 inch dick. It's totally something else than what gender identity dysphoria is about. And that's why passing trans people still go for displaying more and more stereotypical traits to conform as much as possible. They are chasing unattainable BDD fueled ideals. Same as old models who go crazy with plastic surgery, or guys on /fit/ with roids, and yeah it (temporarily) relieves their dysphoria too to chase those ideals.

>>7890401
And before anyone mistakes me again, I'm not against transitioning. I'm against people transitioning for the pleasure of passing gender stereotypes. Transitioning is right for people who feel cross gender expression is natural, ie that their normal preferred gender expression just happens to be perceived as that of the opposite sex. Then transitioning is a natural phase of their lifes growth and development and not forced.

>>7890401
No shit it's possible that a female could have a fairly masculine bone structure. What does that have to do with anything? Outliers don't invalidate a trend, and someone who wishes to be the female will feel worse for having a bone structure which cleaves toward the masculine trend regardless of the possibility of any such outliers.

>>7890401
Even if the body map "theory" was real, it wouldn't cause dysphoria, just phantom body parts.

>>7889945
>Source.
There are dozens of studies on trans neurology that have been done in the past decade or so, anon. The data that's coming out of them isn't completely conclusive (and if I dug up a bunch and posted them all, "that's not proof" is likely all the response I'd get from you); but much of it points strongly in the direction I indicated. In addition to this, we know that brain trauma can cause previously-cis people to experience some type of gender dysphoria (though not quite the same as being trans, it's more like their sense of their own gender is "damaged" or eliminated, and they feel "genderless" afterward, to their great distress).

We also know that children raised coercively as the wrong sex experience dysphoria which is not explained by the idea that trans people have some sort of mental illness OTHER than cross-sex dimorphic neurology. If that were the case, people who don't have the "mental illness" behind transgenderism should be okay if they were raised from birth as the opposite sex. That's not the case. The dysphoria of "normal" cis people raised as the wrong sex has to come from SOMEWHERE.

This basically all points to a sense of gender being based in the brain.

>>7890194
Hilarious gif.


>>7890401
>That a trans person's internal body map is so incongruous with their physical body that they are unable to make sense of their body's spatial location?
No, I was responding to:
>But how can someone feel all that which you listed?

The answer to that is, how can they not? You're implying they CAN'T feel where their own body is in space. Of course they can.

>There's no way to know for sure you wouldn't have exactly the same body even if you were cis. There's no way to know for sure you wouldn't have exactly the same body even if you were cis.
I'm not a sea sponge, anon. I have a FATHER, and other male relatives. I'm sure the other anon has a MOTHER, maybe sisters.

Yes, we have a pretty good idea what we'd likely look like, actually. [Cont]

>>7890769
>>7890401

I know, for example, that I would probably be a lot taller and a lot broader. In reality, I'm 5'7" and pretty slight compared to all the other men in my family. My entire bone structure, including every bone in my head, is much smaller and more delicate than theirs, as well as most cis guys I meet.

Of COURSE I can feel all that! I can feel the boundaries of my own body! I can feel the "ghost" of how tall I should actually be, and have since mid-puberty. Of course it all can and has made me dizzyingly dysphoric.

I'm not especially "BDD," actually. I'm pretty chill about my looks (except for my chin, I hate my dumb chin). It's pretty much all dysphoria over sexual dimorphism.

> I've seen no evidence of there even being an internal female vs. male body map
Explain why cis men who have penectomies typically experience phantom penises while MtFs who get SRS rarely do?

I'm sorry anon, but the concept of "body maps," again, is not limited to trans people.

>>7890505
>what is Body Integrity Identity Disorder
Why do you guys insist that dysphoria and wrong body maps is this trans-only thing and therefore it doesn't real.

>>7890769
>There are dozens of studies on trans neurology that have been done in the past decade or so, anon.
And yet none of them prove your politically driven explanation of transsexuality!

>>7890769
>We also know that children raised coercively as the wrong sex experience dysphoria
Nice pseudoscience.

>>7890473
>someone who wishes to be the female will feel worse for having a bone structure which cleaves toward the masculine trend regardless of the possibility of any such outliers.
Not discounting that. My argument is that that feeling is separate from gender dysphoria, and needs to be treated accordingly. Transitioning doesn't treat it because passing trans people with this condition are still obsessed about becoming caricatures of their gender.

>>7890505
Yeah, it's just people who can't trust their feelings looking to use "science" to prove that their fantasies are founded in reality, so they can't be held liable in some sort of deterministic way. This way they're free to pursue body modification to whatever extent they please.

>>7890769
>No, I was responding to:
>>But how can someone feel all that which you listed?
>The answer to that is, how can they not? You're implying they CAN'T feel where their own body is in space. Of course they can.
>>7885176
That post is like some sort of absurd fiction, and that stuff isn't just gender dysphoria because those things can't be considered to feel wrong for being masculine if you don't know what the feminine alternative feels like. And transitioning isn't going to help - as long as this condition persists, you'll find new flaws to obsess over, like anyone with BDD. Any cis person afflicted with this condition would be focused on the same things, but instead of conforming to the opposite sex, they'd be conforming to their natal one. For example a man who cannot grow a full beard, or a woman whose breasts are too small.

>>7890785
>I know, for example, that I would probably be a lot taller and a lot broader. In reality, I'm 5'7" and pretty slight compared to all the other men in my family. My entire bone structure, including every bone in my head, is much smaller and more delicate than theirs, as well as most cis guys I meet.
>Of COURSE I can feel all that! I can feel the boundaries of my own body! I can feel the "ghost" of how tall I should actually be, and have since mid-puberty. Of course it all can and has made me dizzyingly dysphoric.
If you wanna be a man, you need to focus on being one, not looking like one.

>>7889854
Yeah, I am aware of that.
Like I said, I was just empathising with one person's description. A cis man could empathise in the same way reading a detailed description of someone explaining the visceral feeling of growing/having breasts and menstruating written by someone who knew those things were not supposed to be happening to their body.

>>7884512
>THIS is why I hate all of the sexist men that look down on tomboys for not being "Wife Material"
If I were a cis male I can guarantee that I'd wife a tomboy in a second and we'd have lots and lots of cishet gnc children for the good of humanity as a whole

>>7884512
>They do NOT need to be pressured into horomones, they do NOT need to be pressured into same-sex relationships
Tomboys tend to either start enjoying more feminine behavior or get into girls without being pressured.

>>7884184
>I don't understand this, wouldn't you just be a female who acts like a boy?
pretty much how I see it and I don't know what's so wrong about being a girly-boy or boyish-girl, just because you have feminine behavior doesn't make you a woman that's just closed minded and unaccepting of people are are comfortable being tomboys or tomgirls.
cuteboy pride

Sex = the thing between your legs
Gender = what that means
Sexual Orientation = What other things you let between your legs

Masculine + Feminine = Genders
Male + Female =/= Genders


The idea that Penis = Masculine is a misconception, and bathrooms are not gender-based, but sex based.

People in current-day society are very concerned about identity, especially in America's low-context culture and as such feel the need to confuse and twist the basic ideas of Sex, Gender, and Sexual-Orientation in attempts to separate themselves from others and to create new co-cultures that they can identify by because they feel outcasted by other social groups and cultures.

Gender is not a social construct, but the linkage of gender to your Sex is a social construct.

Gender is simply terms used to describe a person's behavior based off of their overall attitude and preferences.
Describing someone as Girly or Boyish is gender.
Describing someone as a Male or Female is Sex.
Describing someone as Gay or Straight is Sexual Orientation.

Trans = a change to sex, odds are their gender didn't change during this time, but they felt the need to change their sex according to the gender in which it is commonly aligned with.

These three are only related in a social construct, which is why people consider gender a social construct.

>>7884184
What is that raven

>>7903172
https://www.mariowiki.com/Raphael_the_Raven

>>7903212
I love putting sticks up that guy's butt