I don't have anything against gays/trans, but when will

no ban pls, scientific discussion

>>7829923
Fuck evolution, we civilization now. There's no evolutionary reason for people to be gay or trans, just like there's no evolutionary reason to have democracy and freedom and the internet and capitalism and zoos and all the other amazing, wonderful things that make life so great! Live a little OP!

>>7829923
As humans we will evolve beyond discrimination and bigotry. That's how progress works. We fight beyond our base instincts every day and learn more year by year. It's the beauty of humanity.

Plenty of people accept and support their gay children. It is time for that to be the norm rather than a blessing, Darwinism be dammed. If you do not wish to push progressive ideals, then what would you suggest?

>>7829923
>Evolution has every reason

Evolution has no reason or will. People do.

>>7829923
evolution also made it so that trannies and gay people are a thing

are you fucking stupid

>>7829923
You can't 'go against' evolution, it isn't a deity. It's just a set of coincidences and happenings, we refer to it all as evolution since it's easier to understand.
Stop treating evolution like it has some kind of will that we should obey.

>>7829977
This.

Atheism is easily the worst religion.

>>7829923
Evolution excludes beta males.
Yet, you don't seem to mind that the alphas has let you betas live on, despite evolution wanting you dead.

HI. I'm from /pol/ and I've come to destroy you.

>>7829923
Neither of those things are voluntary, and tools and learning have outpaced evolution.

Just don't blame lgbt people for having high rates of mental problems if that's your stance.

There's definitely a distinction in thought here. It's more intuitive than what "logically rigorous" people are use to (first you have A, then you go to B, then you go to C, then etc...) forming a step by step approach with as few as jumps as possible.
It's just a different mindset.

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>>7830045
Are you high on toxoplasma?

Have you considered the 'evolutionary' benefit of having homosexuals in a tribe or small group setting?

One more male to help doing things he's capable of without the con of competitivity to take other females/fight males for alpha spot/create unnecessary situations that cause the group turmoil / resources etc.

The evolution argument is bad because quite frankly, evidence wise it's very beneficial to have homosexuals in a group.

It's also an argument used from an angle that isn't scientific and fails to understand the concept.

>>7830062
are there any evolutionary benefits to being an agp?

>>7830062
>create unnecessary situations that cause the group turmoil

That would be bisexuals.

>>7830062
> implying the evolutionary benefit of a whiney emo disaster waiving its limp wrist around

>>7829923
So phobias are voluntary now?

>>7829923
Homophobia and transphobia are both largely cultural things, not a natural response. Just look at how vastly the level of acceptance has changed in only a few generations.

Mate, being gay is just another sub-class of sexual perversion like any other: foot fetishists, scat enthusiasts, pederasts, necrophiliacs, interracial-cuckoldry practitioners... the list goes on and on.
It shouldn't be illegal but it also shouldn't be celebrated, they are just fringe dwelling deviants, leave them be.

>>7830052
no, but a lot of the comments I can't see the logical framework in. They feel more based of feelings.
Certainly no mathematician would say most of these things because they couldn't come up with them.

>>7830074
Only phobias of good things like gays and Islam.

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>>7830074

so says the rainbow mafia, yes. men and women aren't born that way, gays are. gays have the right to live. babies do not. it all makes perfect sense, if you sit backwards on a unicorn's horn and kiss your toes.

>>7830080

...you're on an LGBT thread, discussing "logical frameworks?"

if you say "intersectionality", i'm done.

>>7830070
>thinking that stereotype existed in neolithic times

>>7830100
Ah yes, the old quandry:

Did the meth make the gay or did the gay make the meth?

We just may never know.

>>7830103
In my case, the meth definitely made the gay.

No regrets.

>>7829963
Faggots better watch out. Shits coming.

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>>7830116
/pol/ really is Lahey.

>>7830135
Shh. Do you hear that?

It's the whispering sands of shit, stirring.

being gay or trans doesn't go against evolution, it does however go against a lot of religious dogma that's been poisoning the minds of people for centuries...

when people push for acceptance, they're not pushing people to go against humanity as a whole, they're pushing people to go against the toxic beliefs that shit like religion has instilled... most people who are anti-trans and anti-gay have beliefs that are typically deeply rooted in the dogmas of abrahamic faiths... if you just look at the demographics of the places where those beliefs are most concentrated or listen to the arguments people generally offer as reasons why gay and trans people shouldn't be accept it's very clear that the issue comes from either belief in those faiths or are the remnants of someone being raised with those faiths... society as a whole has a lot of blurred lines when it comes to that kinda shit cuz of those religious texts polluting the population...

those beliefs have nothing to do with science at all, and have in fact held science back on many occasions... just saying

>>7830187

+ btw if you look at the way a lot of social animals live in plenty of animal groups not all of the members reproduce... so assuming that every human is meant to by evolutionary standards is illogical anyway...

also sterile people and lgbt people are capable of raising a child, and there are plenty of parentless children... so from a logical standpoint these people could serve a purpose in furthering the human race if society allowed for it without the dogmatic prejudice through raising unwanted children who could then go on to reproduce...

also a lot of the mental issues that lgbt people experience are a direct result of the mistreatment of lgbt people by society... in environments where lgbt people are accepted (and in the case of trans people given medical treatment early on) those issues are a lot less prominent

>>7830187

accepted* my bad

>>7830187
>>7830205
>>7829995
make up your mind

>>7830241
damned if I do, damned if I don't.

>>7829956
Actually, it is believed that homosexuality has an evolutionary benefit of gay adoption. Democracy, freedom, the internet, capitalism, and zoos also have some form of evolutionary purpose. Especially that first one.

>>7829977
Hella this

>>7830012
No it doesn't. Look up the term, "sneaky fucker."

>>7830205
I do not buy that ALL of the mental issues are caused by that. It is by birth so that means that it has to be connected to something physical. Otherwise the shock therapy would probably have worked. Not saying medicate the gays, just that there is probably some mental or hormonal connection.

it is in each person's interest to propagate their genes. If evolution intended for there to be gay people there'd have to be sufficient compensation for parents to have a few non reproducing children.
I'm not sure what this compensation would be--a few have made suggestions--but regardless it'd have to be pretty significant. An alternate theory is that people aren't made intentionally gay because the benefits of having a gay offspring every now and then outweighs the downsides, but because humans aren't suppose to be gay. Another possibility is that it's possible that having offspring which trends the border of being gay and straight is actually beneficial and outweighs the risk of one of the offspring going over that line.

I should note that all of the things I'm saying doesn't mean people by nature are made to disapprove of gay/trans people (if they aren't the parents). Their genetic propagation doesn't depend on the orientation of that gay person.

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>>7830077

>>7830259
>it is in each person's interest to propagate their genes.
lolwut
no it isn't

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>>7830085
>rights
hahahhahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhaahahahhah
that's real fucking spooky mate. got any other spooks to rely on?

>>7830267
Oh, I'm sorry.
*it's in each person's genes interest to propagate themselves

>>7830187
Only fundamentalists hate gays, average religious folk either don't mind gays or dislike them but won't persecute them anyway.

>>7830271
>>7830267
(even if the genes don't know they have to in order to survive)

>>7830271
>>7830277
darwkins didn't disprove god just so we could replace the bible with origin of the species.

>>7830272
>>7830259
>their genetic propagation doesn't depend on the orientation of that gay person
Literally the first post in this thread says why parents have a reason to discriminate

>>7830281
you're probably right

>>7830241

you quoted 2 of my posts, and then someone else's... i'm not the one who called atheism the worst religion... i think abrahamic faiths are... that being said i dislike dogmatic atheists who completely deny the possibility of things they can't explain existing... but i don't think they're wrong in saying existing religions are bullshit and i support the steps a lot of them take in trying to educate people against religion

i'm agnostic personally, my mind is made up on the subjects of atheism and the faiths i mentioned...

>>7830257

if you read what i said you'd notice i used the words "less prominent" not anything absolute... so no shit it isn't "all" never said it was, what i said is that the lack of acceptance leads to mental health issues in plenty of cases...

also cis and straight people also have fairly high rates of mental disorders... so what you would need to look at is the rates of lgbt mental illness in people who have been raised in supportive, accepting environments and hold them up against the rates of mental illness in straight and cis people who have been raised similarly (so discounting people who have been abused) before you attempt to discuss those statistics...

>>7830291
I admit that I have not seen those statistics and done some hard core comparison into both, but I would still be amazed if there was no physical correlation.

>>7830291

+ bear in mind that not experiencing discrimination firsthand doesn't keep people from being exposed to the ideas that they're "less than" and/or hated elsewhere... if you think knowing that large groups of society think you're an abomination whether or not you're personally confronted on it has zero effect on every individual in that situation you're wrong...

being forced to live in a bubble or suffer the consequences as a best case scenario isn't exactly great either and can cause distress... just saying

>>7830307
I don't disagree with any of that. I've had plenty of, "Glad my parents don't care, also glad I live in America because being thrown off a roof only sounds fun drunk, and that cannot happen in Saudi Arabia."

>>7830298

depression rates are high and suicide rates are climbing in many groups of people, on the whole mental health issues are rising... just saying...

so why do you think so many cis straight people share those common issues? and why do you think someone lgbt in a better environment is less likely to experience them than someone lgbt in a harsh environment?

>>7830313

even in parts of more progressive countries lgbt people still have to deal with a lot of prejudice... so when i say the bubble thing i'm not even just talking about leaving america to go to a shithole like saudi arabia...

it's a complicated issue really

>>7830318
I have not seen those numbers. I will just take your word for now.

>>7830327
Honestly, wouldn't know what it is like not to live near the discrimination. I grew up in one of those environments where everybody shat on the gays unless one was in the room. Clicky fuckers, annoying af.

>>7830313

+ btw i'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, lgbt people might be more prone to those issues... the same way people of different genders are more prone to some health issues or different races are more prone to different shit... or the way autistic people can be more likely to have certain other issues etc etc etc

to deny that groups of people are pre-dispositioned to shit in many cases would be completely ignorant on my part... so i'm not going there... but for all i know a transchick might just have the same statistical likelihood as a cis straight woman to be inclined to develop depression rather than a higher one if they're in the best possible environment... you get me?

>>7830339

a lot of current research states that mental health issues are on a rise in all groups of people... if i remember right the rates of cis straight women committing suicide has climbed in particular

to be fair, those statistics could be a matter of diagnosis (or misdiagnosis) and drug pushing... it's unfortunately really hard to gauge

i wasn't raised in that type of environment, i had the misfortune of being raised very catholic in an abusive household... i was lucky enough to live in a neighborhood that got more progressive as i got older and to have had open minded friends, but yeah... even in a progressive bubble there's still shit...

it's just a really hard call when there aren't enough statistics and society is set up in a way where all statistics would be somewhat skewed

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>>7830187
>>7830205
Stop using ellipses.

>>7830375

habit and ocd, i don't do it when i handwrite shit but i doubt you want pics of handwritten responses so we'll both just have to deal with it...

>>7829923
evo psych trash, its the gender studies for neckbeards

>>7830381
You don't have OCD.

>>7830381
wait why don't you do it in handwriting? i've never heard of ocd doing this.

>>7830388

come over and spend a few hours with me, you won't feel that way after...

>>7830085
>babies do not.
Pretty sure killing babies results in a prison sentence.

Oh you meant unborn babies?
That's simply the matter of your right of bodily integrity being more valuable than the right to live.
But that's a discussion about values and liberty.

>>7830395

handwriting is different, just like i can have a clock in any room aside from my bedroom but if it's in my bedroom i can't handle it and get extra fucking weird... or like i can touch money if it's mine without it being a big deal, but when it's someone else's it makes me want to wash my hands... ocd isn't logical, i have reasons for shit i do but it really isn't logical

when i type it helps me think and break up my thoughts, but when i'm writing something out physically my thoughts flow different

>>7830408

+ my handwriting annoys people anyway, i mix upper and lower case letters... that's a matter of habit too, i had really shit handwriting as a kid so i used to do that to make it more legible so my teachers could read it...

but it can be so shit that in foreign language classes i used to just put accents over letters while still using english words and get full credit

>>7830408
what's wrong with a clock in your bedroom? i totally get the money thing, except that i do it for my money too. but maybe less so i guess.

anyway, don't change how you type just because it triggers someone. i'm curious why your thoughts flow differently while writing from while typing though.

>>7830413
i can barely read my own handwriting even now! i used to do the mixing letter cases too, but now it's only for a couple of letters.

>evolution
>straights are breeders
>gays prevent overpopulation
>everything goes according to plan

Think a little, even if it's harsh.

>>7830414

i imagine it's that people's thoughts just generally flow differently when physically writing something the same way they do when people read a physical book as opposed to one on a screen... i think it might just be that i type quicker and the time it takes to physically write out every individual letter makes all the difference

i actually really hate the reason behind the clock thing, cuz i know it's fucking retarded... but clocks in my bedroom turn into me not sleeping and i already have sleeping issues...

when i've had something in my pocket or my room for a while i have less anxiety towards it + i actually do shit like wash change and shit so that's probably part of it

>>7829923
>you're literally going against millions of years of evolution.
>Evolution has every reason to program parents to be deeply hurt and NOT approve of their gay kids.
>Just the scientific truth even if it's harsh.
No, no and no.
Congratulations you succeeded in being wrong about everything.
I especially liked the part where you used "evolution" instead of "God" so you could pretend it made things more scientific.
This is very well done, an excellent example on how to be wrong.

>>7830418

it's a few letters for me too a's, n's, r's are all capital... pretty sure that's it... my lowercase g's and s's look about the same, but oh well...

i can read my handwriting, and other people can too unless i'm really high or drunk (which is most of the time) and not being careful about it... then sometimes i can't even read it, i've had people tell me they have no issues once they're used to it...

i'm left handed which is probably part of the problem

>>7830408
> or like i can touch money if it's mine without it being a big deal, but when it's someone else's it makes me want to wash my hands
That's not OCD, that's common sense. Except making exception for own money.

>>7829923
Gays make sense evolutionarily tho. It makes sense for a social species like humans to have non-breeding adults.

>>7830439

i don't think washing your hands well over 50x's a day 'til they're bleeding and well after that frequently is common sense... just saying

my anxiety level when touching that kinda thing is part of the issue, it goes beyond just common sense... one of the things i do when i'm anxious is wash my hands even when it's not about touching something that causes the anxiety...

considering i've had a therapist suggest behavioral therapy for my ocd i don't think it's something i need to justify to you... i also don't think it's at all relevant to the topic at hand, and i don't need to explain every ritual and issue i have to you... its interfered with jobs in the past, and i'm well aware that it goes beyond what's normal

>>7830419
>gays prevent overpopulation
You aren't doing a very good job, fag.

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>>7830408
>i can touch money if it's mine without it being a big deal, but when it's someone else's it makes me want to wash my hands
me too anon

>>7830537

yeah it's like the act of putting it in my pocket for a while somehow cleanses it... i know that's not true, but it changes my anxiety level towards it even though it doesn't make any sense... it's other people's hands being on it and then it immediately touching me that causes the higher level of anxiety than the money itself cuz even money that's on the ground makes me less anxious than it being handed to me by a person... it still all bothers me on a certain level but there's varying degrees

Oh look, another straight disease thread.

>>7829923
2/10
I replied

>>7829923
If we lived in accordance to your apparently poor understanding of evolution then all parents would also kill other people's children in also my competitive situation. Snack time also nut the preschool? Muder every child who doesn't have my genes. Little Tommy wants to race my son to the swings? Cut off Tommy's legs and let him bleed out.

That's how stupid your argument is. It doesn't even take into account that evolution is infinitely more complex when tribes get involved, let alone whole societies.

>>7829995
Let's amend that sentiment. Poorly educated atheism is just more easily called out than poorly educated religiosity.
Mostly because atheism is supposed to be based on informed and rational thought, so when a person is uninformed or ill-informed and spouting atheistic rhetoric you can call them out on their bullshit without needing to dig up their scripture, because they have none.

>>7830070
>Conflating a modern poorly drawn stereotype with all gays in history and pre-history

Constanza.jpg

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OP here. I realized that our approach to the situation shouldn't be based on morality or evolution, but based on optimizing the situation. Truthfully I'm not sure the best way to do that, but we're certainly not doing it right now.

Clearly a lot of the people in the world believe it'd be best to convert a person of the lgbt community, but if this was out of the question the next step would be to try and stop abuse in order to keep individuals of the lgbt community functioning at as high of level as possible.

>>7831521
All you can enforce is legal non-discrimination and try to educate people on who we are and how we really live by just being visible in every day life. Doing more than that poses the problem of promoting an unrealistic or inaccurate new positibr stereotype to fill the place of old negative stereotypes.

Tl;dr: hold back assholes insofar as you can and educate people so that they don't become assholes to begin with.

>>7829923
>I don't have anything against gays/trans, but when will people get that when you push parents to accept their gay/trans kids you're literally going against millions of years of evolution.
Yet evolution is what led to those children being gay or trans. You're essentially claiming that not practicing eugenics goes against evolution, which demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what evolution IS.

>>7829930
>>7830017
>>7830070
>hurr durr

>>7830085
The ``rainbow mafia" isn't the ones saying babies should die, nice try though :^)

>>7830103
Meth didn't exist in neolithic times, either.

>>7830259
>it is in each person's interest to propagate their genes.
Invalid. You do not personally stand to benefit from it, it's not like whether you pass on your genes or not is the main factor deciding whether you get into the good or bad afterlife (at least, no main religion places reproduction so far above other actions in that way). It's in your genes best interest to reproduce, but at that point you're really just being manipulated. Ultimately, the only way it could be considered in your interest, in the sense of ethics derived from rational thought, is if it provided a concrete benefit to some group you identify yourself with. In which case, propagating your genes would be in your interest if and only if you believe your genes are a positive contribution to your ethnic group. Otherwise, you'd be doing more good by helping others, with better genes, to pass on THEIR genes.

>>7830815
Kek.

>>7829923
Listen faggot, evolution is not a god. It's not the "meaning" you're looking for. Especially not the skewed version that you're peddling. It's just a biological phenomenon.

>>7829923
Not sure if this has been said, in so many words, but I would like to add something:

Evolution has no plan, no order, and no ideal. Mother Nature's logic is basically: did the thing reproduce, before it died? if not, did it help a close family member reproduce, before it died?
If yes, then the it was a success.
if not, then it goes extinct.

THAT'S IT. if you look just a little deeper at almost any organism, you see bewildering flaws and shortcomings that no thoughtful, careful creator would put in. You really can say "Evolution dictates this", because the only thing evolution dictates is that your parents didn't die, so here you are.

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>>7829966
You all realize that the primary mechanism of evolution is randomness. Thus it makes total sense that being trans/gay etc can happen with evolution.

Random change happens then if the trait doesn't hinder (or better, actually helps) the organism to mate and pass on it's genes then that trait is "evolved."

We broke evolution though because people with crippling illness etc can still reproduce. With reproduction being the second and most pivotal mechanism fucking it up is huge.

The final mechanism is time. Time in the sense of hundreds of human life times in-order to see even small ubiquitous change.

So try and keep all this in mind as you bicker amongst yourselves. Thus concludes "Evolution 101"

>>7829923
potholer54 sums it up well in one video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuK9pxjBwX8
very informative and well researched

>>7831765
I thought it would be clear what I meant. Clearly a lot of people don't care if they reproduce or not, but what ends up happening is some genes survive while others don't. That was the basis I used to make propositions as to why gays exist.

>>7831838
it's true that not everything may be significant enough to be the reason a person did or didn't reproduce. The only way a gene can be "filtered" out through natural selection over thousands of years is if it is the difference between reproducing or not reproducing in many individuals. Otherwise the information simply isn't there. In another post I pointed out that not being able to reproduce is pretty disabling and there must be a very solid reason for why gays exist.

>>7832163
The reason it's important to run so many trials with many humans over thousands of years (reproduce or not), is because if a person didn't reproduce there is no way evolution can know which gene made the difference between reproducing or not reproducing. Only with many runs can you narrow down what genes are the best and what are the worse. It probably gets a little complicated as some genes success may depend on the presence or absence of other genes so you can't really consider genes being filtered out individually as black and white as I'm making it.

>>7829923
If you're insisting that the only purpose for human life is to consume and reproduce, then I'd say you're pretty fucking retarded. We aren't living in the ancient or medieval times. There is technology and science. There are more than 7 billion people on this one fucking planet. If anything, humans have been too successful in reproducing that we are overburdening the planet and depleting virtually every resource that can be consumed. So about the parents who hate their kid because they're gay or trans, those dinosaurs can go fuck off. The world has enough problems as it is, and hate does not solve or fix anything.

>>7829923
Evolution has taught people to be cunts ? You mean religion you fuckhead.

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>>7829923
>b..but muh evolution

>>7834357
>b..but muh spiritual connection with nature and acceptance

>>7829923
True, but their reaction still can't be excused.
It's inherently unethical to use a person as a means to an end, let alone to make someone for said purpose. Only morally invalid people would think that children only exist to carry on their genes to the next generation and further propagate them, hence your moral compass would have to be screwed if you were to be hurt by your children not doing what you believe you made them for. Considering that we are a social species, the evolution of H. sapiens has probably been primarily driven by our ability to cooperate, compromise, and assist each other, these people who see use of others as tools for their own selfish goals as OK are more evolutionarily redundant than gays.
[spoiler]Not to mention, most of us are still fertile, so we can still reproduce with the opposite sex and work out the parental legalities of it.[/spoiler]

>>7835807
>Not to mention, most of us are still fertile,
Not after SRS.

>>7829923
If people don't accept gay people it pressures them into straight relationships and having kids, thus passing on "the gay gene".