http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/30/us/bo y-scouts-transgender-mem

when I was in boy scouts there was a straight up female in out troop. she fucking ruined everything the whole atmosphere when camping was different

was a headache inducing overachiever too. I tried to get into brownies when I was a kid but they would not let me howd this bitch do it

>>7672041
>>7672087
In the UK, the Boy Scouts were forced to allow girls.

The Girl Guides are girls-only.

>>7672087
>she fucking ruined everything the whole atmosphere when camping was different

Lol. You are a man.

>>7672152
laaaaame

>>7672087
How did she change the atmosphere?

>>7672041
Eat shit OP, I think it's cool.

>>7672041
If they now base membership on gender identity, does that mean mtfs aren't allowed, even though they also aren't allowed in the girl scouts?

>>7675004
>even though they also aren't allowed in the girl scouts

but they are tho. Also yea.

>>7675004
>>7675025
then should the boy scouts and girl scouts should have a rule banning membership in each other?

Why the fuck does gender matter so much this young?

They're too young for gendered spaces to matter who fucking cares.

>>7676741
>he actually thinks kids don't about the world at this age

Tell us, what was like growing up retarded?

>>7676741
Agree 100%. Eliminate gendered spaces for kids and stop punishing kids for being gender non-conforming. This will help trans, LGB and cishet kids alike and reduce gender disparities.

>>7676763
>kids don't about the world
>what was like
You first

>>7676767
holy shit nice digits

also yes I agree

>>7676767
I disagree. I can understand why women want spaces free of men and think if men want to create a space for similar reason then why shouldn't they be able too.
It's a free country we shouldn't have to be so authoritarian about everything.

>>7677169
It's kids though. Kids already do the "no girls allowed" club and the "boys have cooties" thing on their own. They don't need a formalized version of it.

>>7677169
Women can keep their feminist spaces and men ought to be allowed their gentlemen's clubs again.

But they can do that themselves. Boys and girls never decided to have separate scouting orgs. It was foisted on them by adults, pushing their own gendered standards on kids who didn't need it, didn't ask for it and would be happier without it.

>>7677276
I bet there would be a lot less of that from kids if they weren't taught it by adults first too.

>>7677391
Not to mention, there's this general myth that the girl scouts and boy scouts are the same thing just different genders when they're wildly different clubs.
Girl scouts don't have any weird christian stuff going on like boy scouts, are really fucking liberal in comparison, and are more of a social club than anything. Boy scouts are the ones that do the stereotypical outdoors activities and camping thing.

>>7677276
I think calling boy/girl scouts a formalized version of our inherent sexism is a little bit of an oversimplification
People have values, your values are different from mine. But if you make a club I shouldn't be allowed to impose my ideals of you and visa versa.
and if my ideals align with a certain club i should be able to enroll my children in that club
im not talking about starting the 4th reich here, i just think that """""Toxic Masculinity"""""" has its places in society. One of those places MIGHT be a club originally made for young boys lacking strong male role models.

>>7677422
I don't believe that girl scouts and boy scouts are the same, but that is even more of an argument for desegregating the organizations.

It's dumb that a natal female is barred from joining boy scouts for something as arbitrary as gender and vice versa.

>>7677422
It makes me sad learning things like this and wondering how much I and others missed out on because of being the wrong sex.

>>7677430
>One of those places MIGHT be a club originally made for young boys lacking strong male role models.
Sure, some boys and girls might have a better time in that club than in a different club. What's what got to do with your segregationism?

>>7677430
And boys can't find strong role models in co-ed clubs? Just make each unit/troop/whatever have at least one male leader and one female leader.

>>7677459
I dont want people to be separate, i want people to have the right to do what they want without Big Brother dictating how they can carry themselves

>>7677472
just because a tool is multipurpose doesnt make it as good as a tool specifically designed for that purpose.
dont get me wrong it could be but if I dont want to enroll my kid in Cooed Scouts i shouldnt have to.
If I were a club owner and I only wanted to cater to boys or girls specific needs then that should be my right aswell

>>7677503
That's discrimination though. People would have a fucking field day if someone tried to do a whites only or blacks only kids club. Gender isn't different.

>>7677510
It is what it is, you must be this tall for this ride.

I dont disagree with a womens right to spaces from men. I understand their insecurities but men also have insecurities and you should be able to cater to them in an equal way.

if we're dragging race into this its only when europeans make exclusive clubs that anyone makes a fuss.

>>7677484
>I dont want people to be separate,
Cool. Then what were we just talking about?

>>7677503
Sure, but the question in either of those cases is why would you be wanting to segregate people?

>>7677430
Toxic Masculinity, by definition, is masculinity of a type that causes only harm. So that's the wrong terminology here.

And I kind of agree that clubs should be allowed to control what they do and so on, but the problem is that the girl and boy scouts kind of became THE clubs that people's kids get involved with, so there really aren't any other options, practically speaking.

>>7672041

I actually got an email about this earlier today from the "Garden State Equality" but I forgot to make the thread. It's a good thing, but it came as quite the surprise since they had such a problem with gays. The email itself says that an Eagle Scout was kicked out 26 years ago for being the co-president of the Lesbian/Gay Alliance at his university and it took decades for the decision to be reversed. Meanwhile, it only took months to get them to accept trans boys. Since the Boy Scouts are a tool of the LDS (at least that's what I heard) I didn't expect something like that. But then I've also heard some stories that seem to indicate Mormons have an easier time accepting gender identity than homosexuality.

>>7676763
>>7676770

lmao, anon. That sure backfired on you.

>>7677582
Yeah, something like 20% of troops are funded by Mormons.

>>7677582
>But then I've also heard some stories that seem to indicate Mormons have an easier time accepting gender identity than homosexuality.
so my bisexual dream of getting a husband and a co-wife might come true after all?

>>7677595
I think the official LDS stance is still "you are what you're born as, no exceptions", but it's not hard at all to find people that in practice don't conform fully to church doctrine.

>>7677567
>The Clubs
Yes they are The Clubs of their respective mission statements.
Rather then forcing them to change said mission statement that has been serving the public so well for so long that they became THE CLUB, completely changing the dynamic of its original intention, you make your own club! One that is aligned with your values, morality, mission.
Then when no one participates you will see its not something people are interested in and therefor an undesirable/bad idea.

>>7677609
Or we change them, and if YOU don't agree with desegregation, YOU make your own club.

Then let's see which fails your standard of participation and interest.

>>7677609
>implying the average parent knows anything about the mission statements of boy scouts/girl scouts and chose to enroll their kids based on it

>>7677619
The day that Boy/girl scouts are dissolved to create Everybody Scouts I will do exactly that. Thats obviously asuming fascists havent made it illegal .
>>7677624
The brand theyve cultivated for themselves is pretty well understood. If society forced changes to that brand it would not go unrecognized.

>>7677653
The brand is that thing you take your kids to. There's not deeper understanding than that.

>>7677653
>The day that Boy/girl scouts are dissolved to create Everybody Scouts I will do exactly that.

So not supporting segregation was a lie >>7677484 >>7677543

>>7677688
Youre right, i cant believe how insensitive im being. God forbid segregating people for an entire hour or two at a time a couple times a week because they have something in their lives they specifically need. A watered down non denominational version thats half as effective will be twice as good!

No more womens only gyms. Fuck it tear down all the places of worship they can all use the community center together. Sorry Muslims Jews and Christians the new Sabbath is Monday because its 2017 lets stop being so non inclusive.

>>7677722
>gets called on a lie
>launches into religious rant
wew
pretty defensive.

>>7677609
>Then when no one participates you will see its not something people are interested in and therefor an undesirable/bad idea.
So you think that children who are a minority don't deserve a club where they feel welcome?

>>7677722
Boy Scouts have lots of christian funding, but not actually a christian organization, they're already non-denominational. Try again.

>>7677762
everyone else was turning into a sarcastic bitch i figured id give it a go
was it the "god forbid" that triggered you or me relating organized clubs to organized religion ?

Either way great rebuttal

>>7677777
Nice qintz

>>7677722
>God forbid segregating people for an entire hour or two at a time a couple times a week because they have something in their lives they specifically need.
So something that's bad on principle ceases to be bad as long as you don't do it too much? It's okay to drink and drive as long as you only do it four times a year? Is it also okay to steal if the person you're stealing from doesn't need it that badly?

>A watered down non denominational version thats half as effective will be twice as good!
This argument depends on there being evidence that the non-discriminatory version would be "half as effective". The burden of proof is on you.

Get fucked transphobes

>>7677778
Nobody else proved themselves to be a liar who didn't want honest debate.

The can't be a rebuttal, because you have made no honest points,just whatever contradictory lies you think might trick someone into taking your side.

File: Duskull Haunter.png (445KB, 1061x753px) Image search: [Google]

445KB, 1061x753px

>>7677789
Take no shit and give no fucks.

>>7677777
Some numbers. Checked.

>>7677787
There's no arguing with the dishonest and willfully ignorant.

>>7677276
>on their own
You could say gender is natural.

>>7677430
>people who make clubs get to decide their own rules
I agree. Makes perfect fuckin' sense.

>>7677989
Or that kids are still exposed to our culture.
If you let a bunch of kids grow up completely wild on a tropical island with no human contact, I doubt the penis-havers would make a no vagina-havers club.

>>7677472
Feminine social politics are infectious. Hard to learn from a male leader if his wisdom/perspective is filtered by feminine co-workers or superiors.

>>7677886
>the dishonest and willfully ignorant.
That description seems more applicable to yourself than to me.

>>7677602
What if I was born with spina bifida

>>7677459

>It makes me sad learning things like this and wondering how much I and others missed out on because of being the wrong sex.

I wonder if I've missed out on more than or less than you since I wasn't part of the girl scouts or the boy scouts. Personally, the boy scouts sounds like the most interesting of the two barring the Christian theme and conservatism. Although what you said can be applied a lot more broadly like to the experiences of adolescence. Like this moment in "I Know What You Did Last Summer" where it looks like two characters who were dating have sex for the first time. https://youtu.be/44D3O2LoCgY?t=1m6s I'm deprived of a similar experience because the body I have and having to play the sex role assigned to it is repulsive to me, but the place I would rather have is locked out to me forever because of male puberty.

>>7678033
Of course it would to you because you aren't any different than flat earth theorists or people who believe Paul Walker was assassinated by drone strike in the middle of LA on the orders of barack obama.

You're a contrarian who when the world unanimously says "yes" you have get up and scream "no" and I'm not alone in saying that I'm exhausted from hearing the same schlock day in day out you won't stop saying.

>>7678597
>you aren't any different than flat earth theorists
Well considering you believe in this unproven "male essence" or whatever, I could say the same of you.

>people who believe Paul Walker was assassinated by drone strike in the middle of LA on the orders of barack obama.
Well I wasn't there, but I'd say it's pretty implausible to think that a drone strike happened in a populated area without anyone else noticing. If there's evidence of it, sure, I'll consider it, but otherwise it's not really worth considering. If some group really wanted him dead, if they had the ability to pull off a drone strike, they'd have better options at his disposal. Make it look like a car accident (which is what it DID look like), or break into his house and make it look like a suicide or drug overdose.

>You're a contrarian who when the world unanimously says "yes" you have get up and scream "no" and I'm not alone in saying that I'm exhausted from hearing the same schlock day in day out you won't stop saying.
So you're saying "the world" agrees with you, yet enough people disagree with you that you have grown tired of hearing it? Something doesn't add up...

>>7678489
>I wonder if I've missed out on more than or less than you since I wasn't part of the girl scouts or the boy scouts.
I wasn't part of either either. But just the existence of things like that triggers me, because gender.

>but the place I would rather have is locked out to me forever because of male puberty.
It hurts.

If I come out as gay, can the Boy Scouts retroactively revoke my Eagle Scout rank?

>>7685793
They accept openly gay scouts now, so I'm assuming they wouldn't.

>>7677653
You realize that most countries in the world have Scouts instead of Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts, right? We're one of the only non-middle Eastern countries to have this.

Venture Scouts is a thing that attempted to fix that, but I dunno how that worked out.

>>7672041
This IS making them better, OP. What is the problem here? It's not talking about letting in tons of girls, just the rare trans kid. The kids themselves probably don't have nearly as much trouble with this as the adults.

All my friends were boys growing up; I can't think of any activity they told me I couldn't join in on because of my sex. Once when I was 8/9ish, my friends directed me to the boy's bathroom when I said I needed to pee in the middle of some game. I said, "I'm not supposed to go in that one," and one of them said, "Whatever, you're basically a boy anyway. Just don't show your private parts."

You're telling me it would have ruined things for them if I'd joined the Boy Scouts (like I wanted to as a kid)? I kinda don't believe that.

I went into Brownies instead. Which sucked, by the way. Only a girl would think that shit was worth her time.

>>7685934
I was kinda an honorary cub scout. I wasn't formally one, but my dad had a key to the church where our neighborhood's pack met and opened and locked the church for them. They more or less let me do all the meetings and activities and gave me a spare handbook and if they had extra badges, I got them. In fact, some of the boys were jealous that I didn't have to (read: wasn't allowed to) wear the uniform. I assure you I didn't ruin the pack or else dad would have had me out of there asap.

>>7685807
>You realize that most countries in the world have Scouts instead of Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts, right?
Source? The UK also has gendered Scouts, although girls can join the boys one now, because sexism.

>>7685934
>All my friends were boys growing up; I can't think of any activity they told me I couldn't join in on because of my sex.
This is exactly what was pointed out earlier >>7677391 >>7676767

It's horrible what kids are forced to miss out on by adults pushing gender norms onto them and segregating them. And then you get people like we had earlier claiming the kids do it themselves to justify it.

>>7685934
>Only a girl would think that shit was worth her time.
things like this remind me ftms are great.

>>7685951
>They more or less let me do all the meetings and activities
what didn't they let you do? it sounds like you'd have fitted in better as a proper member, if it was things like the uniform that set you apart and not your sex.

>>7686098
I couldn't go to any of the camping trips or their summer camp, I wasn't allowed on their official soccer team (but I was allowed to go to the practices and became a pretty decent goalie because of it), or go to the annual stuff like the banquets.

>>7686109
did you mind those limits much?

if you don't mind me asking, are you ftm or bi/les?

>>7686115
The camping was the one that killed me because girl scouts don't really camp (at least not in my area, they only do a 1 night cook-out deal each year) and the only other options were fancy rich-kid camps we couldn't afford. The other stuff I didn't really mind too much.

I'm FtM, but the new policy wouldn't really have changed anything because my dad doesn't believe it's a thing now, much less if I had started telling him at the age of 6.

>>7686132
>I'm FtM, but the new policy wouldn't really have changed anything
my reason for asking to see what kind of girl suffers from gender boundaries like that.

>>7686143
Well, I didn't know about trans stuff when I was little and thought I was a butch lesbian up until a few years ago, so my experience could be any non gender-conforming girl's.

>>7686150
yes. i didn't even really suffer this kind of thing myself but for some reason it still really bugs me.

>>7686026
>Source?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Organization_of_the_Scout_Movement_members
Look up any countries you want. Majority western Scouting countries are mix gender; there's no Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts, its just Scouts. The US is full of fucking prudes who can't handle gender shit and when I went to a World Scouting event back in 07 us Americans were the butt of many a joke.

>>7686200
>Majority western Scouting countries are mix gender; there's no Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts, its just Scouts.
Then why do those countries all have different organizations for girls?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Association_of_Girl_Guides_and_Girl_Scouts_members

>>7686219
Because those aren't different organizations. It's all the same association.

>>7686246
Then why do they have different names and appear on different lists?

File: NSF.png (97KB, 1565x1170px) Image search: [Google]

97KB, 1565x1170px

The NSF scouts was never gender segregated. What does hiking in the woods have to do with your sex?

>>7687320
Swedish conscription was exclusively applied to men, so same question for that?

>>7687389
What does carrying heavy backpacks and relying on your teammates to survive have to do with sex?
In a life and death situation the difference is significant.

Setting up a tent and a fire isn't intensive or dangerous in any way. If we trust literal children to do it then we can trust the physically weaker sex to do it as well.

>>7687469
>In a life and death situation the difference is significant.
I don't think Sweden has a huge history of sending troops off to die, and even if it did, the women could still be conscripted to nice safe jobs in the home country, not the frontlines. So why is it fine for it to only apply to men but a social club must be co-ed?

>>7687516
I'm not even defending it. Just pointing out the most obvious possible reason and explaining why the military is not comparable to the scouts.

>>7687524
It seems more like a post hoc justification than a reason, just like the claim it's not comparable.

>>7687516
>the women could still be conscripted to nice safe jobs in the home country, not the frontlines.
Conscription is usually done to fulfill a demand for frontline troops (basically cannon fodder), while there generally isn't a similarly large demand for noncombatant personnel.

>>7688134

But one would think that the military would be interested in replacing every male noncombatant with females and sending those males into combat as well as whatever males they draft.

>>7672041
Won't stop the scout leaders from molesting children either way.

>It comes a few months after an 8-year-old Cub Scout in New Jersey accused the organization of expelling him for being transgender.
>8 year-old
>transgender

only pedos would defend this

>>7688198
That's like saying only pedos acknowledge that children have a hair color.

>>7688198
Literally all it means at that age is different clothes and hair style combined with a new name and pronouns. Literally nothing that can't be easily changed if it turns out the kid isn't actually trans.

>>7688610
>Literally all it means at that age is different clothes and hair style combined with a new name and pronouns.
Why even treat kids differently at those ages at all?

>>7688677
I don't know, but society does, and since your kid has live in that society, best to adapt them to it.

>>7688688
Well fuck that. It needs to end.

>>7687469
>>7688134
>>7688166
Why do people rationalize so much in order to defend severe sexism?

It's especially shocking on /lgbt/, which you would have thought would be understanding of the harm gender roles cause when forced on the entire population.

>>7692967
>rationalize so much
It's not really a stretch to assume that men are better at physically demanding jobs. The question gender-neutral draft is usually last on the agenda because a gender discriminatory one is not as obviously unjustified.

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong and argue with me but don't act like I'm a complete nutjob, please. And please don't assume we need to have a certain set of progressive or leftist opinions just because we're lgbt.

>>7696399
Except there's plenty of tasks that aren't physically commanding that still need to be done to protect the country.

>The question gender-neutral draft is usually last on the agenda because a gender discriminatory one is not as obviously unjustified.
This is the rationalization, the dismissing of the issue with the "not as obviously unjustified" excuse.

>>7698154
Then why don't you tell me why it's obvious sexism instead of dismissing my argument entirely?

>>7698918
You just said yourself it's gender discriminatory. That's the dictionary definition of sexism.

What can I possibly tell you to explain how discrimination is discrimination?

>>7698154
>Except there's plenty of tasks that aren't physically commanding that still need to be done to protect the country.
But those aren't the ones that usually have personnel shortages. Military jobs that aren't physically demanding usually require education or special training, so for those jobs the military prefers to be selective and chooses people based on their skills or background. You really can't just grab people off the street and expect them to do those jobs well. The draft on the other hand is for when you really need cannon fodder - people who can be minimally trained to act as what is essentially a human sandbag.

>>7699382
Modern countries don't need huge conscript armies. The draft is a social institution, not some kind of actual defence strategy. That's why it's sexism stands out.

>>7699382
you would be up in arms if something like this happened against women.

>>7699562
That's why the draft hasn't been used in modern times.

>>7699686
I'm a guy, why would I be more offended if it was something happening to the OTHER gender? I AM opposed to the draft in general, but it's basically ceremonial in modern times, AND I can understand the reasoning why only men were included.

>>7699737
Read >>7687389

>mentally trannies telling people ITT how to raise their own children

kek, get fucked

>>7699882
Keep raising kids the way cis people do then, that's never created a tranny or gone wrong any other way.

>>7699737
>but it's basically ceremonial in modern times,
it costs men a year or so of their lives in several countries.

>>7701472
That's mandatory conscription, not the draft.

>>7701531
that's what the topic is.

>>7701648
No, we're talking about the American draft specifically.

>>7701725
click the quotes and check the conversation.

>>7687320
>>7687389
wtf, why isn't everybody in sweden saying they are trans to get out of being conscripted?

>>7672087
>was a headache inducing overachiever too. I tried to get into brownies when I was a kid but they would not let me howd this bitch do it

fuck it sounds like you are mad and buttfrustrated about something

did it hurt your male pride that a girl was better than you

>>7707352
>MtF sad she wasn't allowed to do girl things while girls could hijack any male things without complaint
>must be male pride!
This is why trans girls hate feminism.

>>7707414
wtf since when is baking brownies forbidden

or learning cooking?

I had no idea that's what she meant lmao I thought brownies is some rank in scouts or something

>>7688688

This is a universally terrible justification.

People will pick up on social norms quickly if live in that society. It seems far more traumatizing to do something you know is harmful to your kid than to just ... not do that. And let them "adjust" to any harms of society or whatever when they are older.

Plus this also indoctrinates them with whatever norms you want them to have. So when they go into society and see it being fucked up they'll ask why it's like that and maybe fix it instead automatically accepting this because it's how they were raised.

>>7707428
>muh 'male pride'
>muh 'girl better than you'
>girl is allowed in your club but you can't go in hers
Do you not see the problem here?