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I have a serious question for LGBT that's been on my mind for some time.
What if society deemed it completely fine/acceptable although unusual obviously for a man to wear what is now considered feminine clothing.
What if a boy/man could wear skirts, dresses, leggings, ballerina's/pumps/ankle boots, make up, feminine hair styles, you name it?
Basically a male has the option if he feels it's more his style to basically present himself in a feminine well kempt way, just like women today can have the option to wear sport shoes, allstars, heavy boots, baggy jeans etcetera without anyone (mostly) batting an eyelid.
Would such a state in society, where it's a societally accepted way for men to present themselves, alleviate a lot of the gender dysphoria and psychological problems/stress that quite a few men in the transgender community experience?
I'm asking also because I suspect society's pressure on young boys even to not adopt feminine styles can make them believe they're women in men's bodies and thus should go out of their way to conform to society's expectations by trying to pass as a woman.
I personally believe it would be much healthier if our culture would come to terms with femininity in a male, rather than put so much pressure on them to reach for hormones/transition.
On the other hand, I in no way believe this gender fluidity should be encouraged. Just accepted and appreciated. No need to push for it. Just let people be who they are, as long as it's in some acceptable, productive taste and doesn't harm anyone.
P.S yes I know there're and always will be real transsexuals who absolutely have the brain wiring of the sex opposite to their bodies and they deserve all the support. I'm just wondering if a lot of guys who somewhere down the line adopt the transgender label wouldn't be happier if society were more accepting of people presenting themselves in the aura/style of what would generally be the opposite sex.
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no it wouldnt do shit for dysphoria
I'd still have to look at my face in the mirror and want to blow my brains out every day
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>>7568634
women are freely allowed masculinity (to a point, butch lesbians are not particularly socially accepted) and yet ftms continue to transition
male gender roles are less restrictive than they've ever been and yet transition is more common than it has ever been
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>>7568634
It isn't, there's BDD and ana that drive things. That's why there's groups like femboys that identify as guys but often get BDD and take hrt and more to prevent help it.
I like guy clothes and I don't care what I can wear but I don't want to have some burly ape's body, that's gross.
Case in point that guys chin and horse face is a disaster. Makes me nauseous just looking at.
Your idea is worthless unles hrt and other body mod stuff were aceptable
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>>7568647
Yes, but there are also a lot less FTM's. And I agree social acceptance for masculinity in a woman is also not 100% yet. It could improve still.
But although male gender roles are indeed less restrictive, you don't see a male homemaker wearing a dress without getting ridiculed or anger thrown at them. This is just a simple analogy here, but the point is that femininity in terms of style, presentation is definitely not (yet) that accepted. The push to transition when a guy has a strong need to present themselves in a feminine manner and dress is very powerful I think. Hence the many transvestites/crossdressers who later enter the stage of transgender or transsexual.
The emphasis on womanhood physically is strong. I think if it were less, we could see more crossdressers who would not wan tto wear fake breasts. It would, perhaps, be less about imitating a woman and more about exploring one's feminine style as a man (while still looking more like a woman maybe, but without the desire to actually duplicate a woman with breasts for example). Hope that makes any sense.
I also am very concerned about today's culture concerning physical imperfections or perceived imperfections. The surgery/botox/body modification culture shows how people today are unhappy with their bodies. This is a problem that needs to be addressed. There is no such thing as perfection, and beauty is still subjective too.
Of course if someone has a truly horrible looking nose or teeth sticking out like a bunny, go for it, have surgery or do what needs to be done. But a lot of it today is going too far imo. I want nothing more than for people to appreciate their own bodies more.
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Ftm here. Presentation doesn't fix dysphoria. I was a butch woman and while that was better than being femme, I was still uncomfortable with my body.
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>>7568737
I know and I understand, but I addressed that. I know there will always be true transsexuals, and it should be appreciated. Some cultures have done so more than others. But I'm wondering there are many, not all, who would feel less dysphoria/stress and more at peace if they were free to present themselves as they wish without fear of ridicule or worse bodily harm.
Of course, what I'm proposing means that many of the people who think they're transsexual are thus not actually a true 100% transsexual, but rather something that morphed into that due to these external societal pressures.
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>>7568769
Perhaps, but it's relatively rare if significant at all.
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>>7568634
Clueless autist here
-what is the name for that style of jacket?
-if I wanted to wear a black version of it with a similar dress, what colors should I go for in the rest of my fit? still black?
-would having small AA-A cups mess it up?
traditional cardigans don't seem to suit me
t. big shoulder autismo maximo
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>>7568634
>>7568723
Genuine question for the OP: why are you against non-dysphoric or non-gender conforming people from transitioning? You made a fair point about the reasons why some people transition due to cultural constructs, but does it really matter that much to you personally what other people choose to do with their own bodies? People make a lot of life altering decisions, such as excessive smoking, drinking, tattooing, plastic surgery, etc., but all of those are social accepted and not frowned upon in the same manner as a feminine male. If a male person adopting a feminine appearance and/or behavioral traits can be culturally accepted, why not altering their own bodies for the same purpose? I don't believe every gender non-conforming person should be forced or pressured into having a gender change, but at the same time, I also dislike the idea that we should police other people's bodies and private business just for the sake of maintaining an illusion of normality.
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>>7568769
The only way that question is going to be resolved is if you find statistics on the motivation for transitioning. Anecdotally, I can tell you that nowhere nearly as many transsexuals as you think transition for gender role based reasons. The fact that there are fewer FtMs than MtFs doesn't necessarily mean that it's mainly because FtMs are more allowed to present in a masculine way without transitioning. The cause behind transsexualism is poorly understood.
Personally, while less restrictive gender roles would help relive dysphoria by allowing me to present myself more how I wanted, I'd still despise my body, and despise being thought of as a guy, and need to transition physically and socially.
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>>7568804
If someone doesn't have a feminized brain (i.e. are trans), why should they get to pretend to be the other gender? There's nothing legitimate about it. Sorry, you're not trans, you're not a woman, you're just trying to assume our issues and force yourself into our community because of your depression, fetish or other personal issue.
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>>7568804
Indulging your fetish sets our civil rights back. That's too high a cost. Nobody else demands that for their fetish.
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>>7568804
I agree, people make a lot of those decisions, but they often regret it later on, whether it's with smoking or tattooing. I also think people do these things in excess due to discontentment.
It's not so much the act itself that worries me as the underlying reasons for these behaviors. The pressures that lead up to them. They're psychological reasons. Personally I'd like to see a world that's a bit less stressed, takes care more of each other and appreciates each other's physical uniqueness with less emphasis on notions of physical beauty.
Simply put: I believe it's going too far today, people seem to never be satisfied. It's a constant struggle, and I think it's making a lot of people miserable.
Having said that, I hope you don't interpret me as being prudish, I have absolutely no problem with anyone having a nice drink or a nice blunt or getting a tattoo or having a nose job. All I'm worried about is the ever increasing excess that's taking place, the dissatisfaction with ourselves. It hurts me to see so many wonderful people drowning their lives in such excess out of their frustrations.
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>>7568804
Also, I want to quickly add:
I myself am not for policing other people's bodies. It's about addressing the deeper underlying psychological pressures in society leading up to bodily dissatisfaction. I regret that my previous posts were still capable of giving that impression, but it's not what I mean. I'm just sharing my concerns.
It's also a bit more about the limitations in society. I'm all for surgery if it is truly what is needed to alleviate psycholopgical stress. But, I've seen many cases where people go on and on about not being able to "pass" and fearing ridicule or worse. They make it clear it's the passing that is the problem. Passing for others.
I do really get a sense that many people in the crossdresser/transcommunity worry a lot about the outside world.
As a result, I also wonder how many would feel about themselveds if the outside world was a more welcoming place, less judgmental, and perhaps appreciative of their expressions and the energy they wish to present.
Personally I would only welcome it. If a person can present themselves in the way they feel and are, it can tell you a lot about them and would only be a boon for communication (I suspect anyway).
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>>7568886
>But, I've seen many cases where people go on and on about not being able to "pass" and fearing ridicule or worse. They make it clear it's the passing that is the problem. Passing for others.
The terminology perhaps adds confusion there. If you pass, your body is close enough to that of the sex that you're transitioning towards that you for practical purposes are that sex. At that point, you could feel bad about certain features, but it's much more superficial, since you're still at least male/female enough. If you don't pass, your body isn't "good enough". Sure it's about being socially accepted, but that acceptance is predicated on your body being how you want it; they're interlinked. Hence, non-delusional people being told they pass when they really don't still feel bad about their bodies.
>if a person can present themselves in the way they feel and are, it can tell you a lot about them and would only be a boon for communication (I suspect anyway).
For many transsexuals, having the correct body is a necessity for this. Less restrictive gender roles would not help them.
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>>7568818
Get over yourself. "True" trannies aren't women either. They're gay men with slightly feminized brains that transition because restrictive gender roles make their lives worse as feminine men. Having a feminized brain doesn't make you female in any true capacity and doesn't justify feeding into a delusion while pretending to be the oppossite sex.
It can easily be reasoned that they just internalized those roles from a young age and got dysphoria because their behavior matches more to a normal girl. The being feminine part is neurological/personality while the identifying as a woman part is learned and completely psychological in nature. Even the "brain map" theory is mostly bullshit with nothing conclusive to back it up.
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>>7568917
>"True" trannies aren't women either. They're gay men with slightly feminized brains that transition because restrictive gender roles make their lives worse as feminine men.
What, even the transbians? Unless you claim they're not really trans for some reason?
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>>7568924
lesbian trans women do not have neurofeminization, though they have other neurological changes that are not in sexually dimorphic directions
worth pointing out that's exactly how blanchard predicted in the early 2000s they would look
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>>7568930
>lesbian trans women do not have neurofeminization
Can't make this claim. There are no studies of gynephilic MtFs that use gynephilic cis women as controls, they all use hetero cis women, when it is known that lesbian cis women have more masculine brain patterns.
Researchers are so retarded sometimes.
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>>7568924
I didn't say they weren't trans. Both obviously want to be the opposite sex and go to great lengths to convince themselves that they can in any capacity. That's why trans people are often so delusional and it's also why the homosexual ones try to validate themselves by establishing a faux heirarchy of legitimacy in their own community. Deep down they know they can't actually be women, but they can be closer to it than the average heterosexual tranny.
They aren't anymore of a woman than the average "transbian". They're still male, they're just more stereotypically feminine and have a slightly more feminized phenotype.
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>>7568915
>For many transsexuals, having the correct body is a necessity for this
I getcha. I won't reject these people, I know there are plenty.
Still, do you think what I'm propoposing has some merit though? Are there also a lot of people who go to a transsexual stage because they, perhaps subconsciously, feel they have to due to societal pressures from not accepting feminine presentations/styles in biological males.
Or do you think that's never or only seldomly the case?
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>>7568917
Do you call other intersex people fake women or is your bigotry reserved for trans people?
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>>7568994
Having a brain disorder isn't an intersex condition. The definition only applies to genetics, hormones and sex organs. Most trannies are physically healthy males aside from their mental disorder. Are gay men intersex because their brains are a little feminized?
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>>7569032
You just admitted we have intersex brains.
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>>7568990
I agree that what you're saying is right for some cases, but you're vastly overestimating both the number of people who transition for mainly superficial reasons, and the impact the superficial factors have on the people who are seriously dysphoric about their sexual characteristics.
Also, in practice it's hard to tell those two groups apart, and fundamentally they're not really that distinct anyway. Even in your hypothetical situation there would still be people on the borderline, with fairly strong gender dysphoria over things that aren't fixed by the tolerant society but maybe not strong enough to be sure of themselves being "really" trans or whether they want to transition. I mean, they exist now too. Gender dysphoria is continuous; it's not something you have or don't.
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>>7569032
I'm pretty sure having such a strong psychological drive to take the opposite sex's hormones and attempt to appear and be accepted as the opposite sex through reconstructive surgery can be classed as being pretty fucking similar to being intersex. Stop being autistic.
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>>7569055
AGP transsexuals have the same drive. Are they intersex?
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>>7568634
Yes it would help. Just like all those special snowflake girls can cosplay boys without any suffering of getting rejected by your family and getting beat up by peers. And then grow up to be normal females, or whatever - no one prosecutes them for gender nonconformity.
But no one gives a fuck about mens rights cause politicians and elites are exploiting feminism only to oppress the common men more.
Im not a woman but want to be androgynous and non-manly without ruining my social life and career and fearing homophobic mobs.
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>>7568646
It would hugely help you in transitioning years tho.
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>>7569069
Yeah they are. They are what happens if you take a lesbian brain and wash it in male hormones twice.
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>>7569096
>AGP = transbians
this meme again
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>>7569073
>>7568990
>>7568818
You're over reaching, incompetents being smug are Insufferable.
Look at the rates of BDD in effeminate gay boys. Clothes have nothing to do with that. It's all issues with body size and being cute.
Unless you make it acceptable for boys to take hormones, your plan is just gonna be a bonanza for old middle age men perverts who look disgusting.
It wont do shit for my ana, I like physical androgyny, not trashy clothes.
And you're a hon so odds are you're a true monster, I'm not gonna hand over my fem body to a jealous monster like you.
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>>7568930
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4222943/
>visual stimuli
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3877116/
>Grey Matter Volumes
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18056697
>oderous steroids
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7477289
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10843193
>BSTc
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18980961
>INAH3
They all say you're wrong, so long as they're young and cute there isn't any dif.
The only thing studies have proved is that hons and other old transitioners all have ultra masculine brain structures.
So really it just proves monsters like you are really pervertred men.
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>>7569103
You're talking about the 'hard' agp fetishists with male identities? I'm convinced that they're just really butch/far gone lesbian brains more than anything, honestly.
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>>7569107
OP here.
Wasn't talking about trashy clothes. Not talking about anything sexual either. Just about general styles/presentations relating to supposed normal gender role attire, whatever you wanna call it.
I also don't claim to be an expert, but merely making an attempt to have a discussion and maybe soar to new levels of knowledge/some insight.
Also, I'm sorry, but I'd rather we look at all possible causes/influences relating to someone's behavior and desires before we pump people full with artificial hormonal therapy.
Why in all honestly would that not be the sensible approach and a much healthier approach for the human body?
Also, I'm not a hon, but I do crossdress and I have been told it's in a nice taste. If you wish it, I can provide a picture, but only if there's interest for it.
Anyway, I'm speaking from experience concerning the "bodily frustrations", which I too have had since I was a small kid, and still do sometimes, so I'll show that honestly in an attemp to be as transparant as I can be concerning my experience/background. Obviously in light of what I've stated before, ever since I was small, I've felt a powerful shadowy pressure from the outside world when it came to expressing interest in feminine styles/interests.
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>>7568634
On what planet does a hyper social species that doesn't benefit from gender fluidity, benefit from its increased visibility.
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>>7569170
>Also, I'm sorry, but I'd rather we look at all possible causes/influences relating to someone's behavior and desires before we pump people full with artificial hormonal therapy
what do you think gender therapy is for? it's a pretty intense process, historically it was way too intense and people would be gatekept for almost a decade
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>>7569170
Great, so you're a guaranteed freak. Sure to become one of those mega hons who steal their daughters clothes. Look I might be a fag, and I love androgyny but there's nothing more disgusting than a masculine ape in a wig.
I'm not trans, but I prize control over my body and the way it looks more than anything and I would sooner die than be like you.
I'm not handing over my body or my pills to a monster like you.
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>>7569186
I don't know, but if you read my post, I did state that it wouldn't be a good thing to "encourage" homosexuality or any other LGBTQ phenomena. Well, it's also why I don't like gay parades. Too much emphasis on sexuality.
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>>7568634
I'd much rather have access to hormones and not be able to dress pretty than vice versa.
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>>7569126
>So really it just proves monsters like you are really pervertred men
yep, that's a very true statement and something i believe about myself
not sarcastic -- i'm ftm, of course i consider myself a man!
also, have you read any of those studies? because i have, all of them. they don't say what you think they do, especially given all the trans lesbians in them were what you would call 'hons' (i mean, shit, read the bstc study -- the youngest transitioner in it was in her 30s)
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>>7568818
The gatekeeping is strong in this one. Who gave you the authority to determine who is and isn't transgender?
They sounds more like a Susan's Place-tier hon to me. The same type of people who would ban you for even mentioning about self-medding.
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>>7569208
You're probably trolling, which is fine, but I am not a masculine ape in a wig, nor am I a hon. That's all.
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>>7569208
is this you on a shitposting spree?
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>>7569209
If you recognise its not great to encourage, what do you call coming to accept male femininity.
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>>7569247
All I'm saying is that anyone who is perfectly fine with being a "normal" boy/girl/man/woman, should not be encouraged to deviate from that. It's about respecting everyone.
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>>7569233
You are, you're a monster and I know your type. The fact you have no BDD and are complacent proves you're an insane hon in denial over his hypervirile traits.
You're a monster and you want to take away my neotenous body and turn me I to something like you. I starved myself I till I spent all my time hospitals, vomited bile, and spent all of adolescence as a half dead skeleton just to controll my body. And now you want to take away my quick and safe phama way of replicating that.
>>7569170
If Cis boys taking artificial hormones so they can stay cute is evil, then what makes creepy masculine perv crossdressers and hons the right to exist in this world?
I hope the alt right bashes you all off the face of the earth. I should join them.
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The number of TS would likely decreased if society was more accepting of BEHAVIORAL femininity in males, not femininity in looks.
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>>7569291
i'm an outsider in this conversation, but it seems remiss to not point out that someone with dysphoria that severe proooobably isn't a cis boy
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>>7569170
OP, some people have come to their own conclusion about their own gender after much soul searching, and made it their life's goal to transition. Once that point has been crossed, there is very little anyone can do to persuade them not to transition. This applies to both FtM trans men and MtF trans women.
I'm a firm believer of letting people be who they want to be, live and let live, as long as they aren't committing any crimes or hurting me in the process. I don't mind what you or other people decide to do with your own bodies, or choose how to live your own lives. But trying to restrict access to hormones on a narrow set of principles will do more harm than good. And it likely won't deter the most determined transitioner, AGP or "trutrans", from completing their personal mission of transitioning to the opposite gender. Rather you would be pushing the trans community go underground once again, like during the dark ages of the 70s, 80s and 90s decades.
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>>7569291
You couldn't be more wrong. I advise you to read my posts again. I am all for transition if it's really necessary, preferably at a young age (does this help?), but all I'm stating is that there may be quite a few cases where the reasons they wish to transition or believe they're trans is because of societal/group pressures, not because they are truly transsexual. Is that really so hard to get? Your interpretation of my words is really severe. But I hope this post will clarify some things.
Also, again, I am not a hon or a monster. I also stated that I have experienced BDD and still do sometimes, although I strongly question its origins.
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>>7569306
Groups other than trans can get BDD, I don't think of myself as a woman, I like the Andro male role and I like guy clothes.
And also, I just wanted to keep the status quo in looking fem, as a teen I could wear things that were obviously guy clothes act like a boy and everyone would still think I was a girl.
>>7569333
I'm not trans, so then i lose every shred of body autonomy in your world. Your crossdressing is meaningless if you also want to deprive everyone of the right to look how they want, it's a disgusting mockery.
I'm not trans and I'm not ever going to play those games so your idea is that I should have no control over my body.
If I'm not allowed to exist, then why should an ape in heels like you have any right to be in this world. You are a monster, you're a hyper virile pervertred man just like the hons who makes a mockery of women. You don't deserve to exist. My way of existing hurt no one, so if I'm gone, then we all need to scour monsters like you out of existence for good.
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>>7569559
>Your crossdressing is meaningless if you also want to deprive everyone of the right to look how they want
Never said that. But, I'm going now, this has devolved into lame name calling now, but thanks to everyone who engaged in meaningful information exchange.
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>>7569606
You said they could dress the way they want but have zero control over their body
Some ridiculous dress doesn't make up for that
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>>7569080
i cannot transition, i would need a skull transplant
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>>7569618
Nope, I stated if it's truly the only way, then fine by me. So work on your reading comprehension, stop the emotional rants (filled with mindnumbingly boring name calling) and then we'll talk some other time. Have a good one!
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>>7569649
Your way would force people to transition and give up their personalities to get any controll.
People can't normally take pills as they wish cause it offends your hon sensibility.
God, more proof that hons and creepy crossdressers are absolute evil.
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>>7569649
>>7569619
>rather we look at all possible causes/influences relating to someone's behavior and desires before we pump people full with artificial hormonal therapy.
So in otherwords people aren't allowed to have control over their bodies when they want and only people who meet your AGP/hon ideals will ever get any?
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>>7569219
>the bstc study -- the youngest transitioner in it was in her 30s
So in other words these are all studies composed of men and every single study did nothing but cover the hon/pervert demographic
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>>7569889
>femboys throw a histrionic fit
fyi that one basically admitted to slowly killing themselves over dysphoria its probably tranny in denial
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>>7568634
I would be wearing pumps, ankleboots, with my skinny jeans and start wearing makeup. I'd probably start wearing g-strings and switch my skinny jeans for jeggings. It'd be a nice society.
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>>7568634
>Would such a state in society, where it's a societally accepted way for men to present themselves, alleviate a lot of the gender dysphoria and psychological problems/stress that quite a few men in the transgender community experience?
No not at all. Clothing is farcical and immaterial, being a "man in a dress" is the very last thing I want to be. Like what if I was a dyke? Then I wouldn't even want to wear female clothing. It's more about being female than it is about any one aspect of femininity.
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>>7576229
Here here, focusing on the aesthetics only is AGP. It would help with MtFs who suffer with AGP also, but that is it. But it wouldn't solve the daily issues that face Trans girls.
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>>7568634
>rather than put so much pressure on them to reach for hormones/transition.
You are talking about an extreme subset of an extreme subset.
This kind of transexual might be a little over 100 people in a sea of millions. You are making it sound like people who are pressured into transitioning because they are guys that cant express femininity are like half of all trannies when it really isnt.
This would probably make it so the maybe handful of people like that wouldn't have to secretly cross dress or whatever. It would really benefit people who dont pass as female/male and people who physically cant use hormones (either through money, allergies,genetics).
Honestly everyone would be better off if this scenario where real because humanity at large would stop this aversion to femininity that its cultivated for centuries.
On a personal note: I really wish more cis males would do this. itd be nice to be around a bunch of Chads in skirts, if anything just to see what that personality evolves into.
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