So I'd like to discuss a controversial subject among the

>>7530566
I'd think the BDD aspect is, had ana as a kid, nearly died from it, I think they're from the same root.

Not saying that body autonomy isn't the perfect treatment.

t. femboy

>>7530566
for at least some who experience it, it's an intersex condition
for some other number, it's a sexual orientation
i don't think it's a mental disorder, but even if it is i'm anti-psychiatry enough to not care

I prefer to refer to it as a medical condition

This isn't a controversial issue. We talk about it all the type. It isn't a mental disorder strictly speaking because it's just a state of your neurology which can have no adverse effects on you. However, this state of affairs is more often than not accompanied by dysphoria, which is a mental disorder because it has many adverse effects on its victims.

>>7530566
It is as much as mental disorder as any social deviance is.

>>7530628
>>7530717
>neurology
Nope. That's just what trutrans tell themselves to justify their decision to transition to themselves.

>>7530738
Whatever helps you sleep at night, closet faggot.

>>7530717
>>7530738
>>7530752


Please remember to be friendly and also remember to use sources to support your claims. We're looking for objective reasons why it shouldn't be a disorder or should be a disorder. Vague discussion around neurology doesn't help.

Have a nice day.

Thank you.

>>7530761
'Kay:

[1] Zhou, Jiang-Ning, Michel A. Hofman, Louis J. G. Gooren, and Dick F. Swaab. "A Sex Difference in the Human Brain and Its Relation to Transsexuality." Nature 378.6552 (1995): 68-70. (Paperdex)

[2] Kruijver, F. P. M. "Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus." Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 85.5 (2000): 2034-041. (Paperdex)

[3] Chung, W. C., G. J. Vries, and D. F. Swaab. "Sexual differentiation of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis in humans may extend into adulthood." Brain Research (2001). (Paperdex)

>>7530752
>closet faggot
I'm openly trans and into guys...

Transsexualism is simply a label for a behavior and a way to identify people

Gender dysphoria, the most common source of transsexual behavior, is what you should be asking about. It's a neurological issue, not an acquired mental illness, it's a misdevelopment of gender identity in the first few years of life

>>7530773
>Dick F. Swaab
Heh heh, Dick Swaab.

>>7530773
Thanks wikipedia editors!

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>>7530773

A+++ anon

Well done.

>>7530797
>implying I went to Wikipedia
Bitch, get on my level.

>>7530773
>if I cite papers I haven't read, nobody else can read, and which explicitly contradict my claims in the subjects, I'm right!

>>7530792
>It's a neurological issue, not an acquired mental illness, it's a misdevelopment of gender identity in the first few years of life
You are aware that this contradicts the trutrans narrative that it is determined prenatally?

>>7530824
I have read them, they do not contradict my claims at all. Unless you would like to point out the contradictions in the papers you claim you can't read.

>>7530824
>You are aware that this contradicts the trutrans narrative that it is determined prenatally?

What leads you to assume that I give a fuck about that? I'm not trans

>>7530824
>trutrans narrative
You are aware that trutrans... is a meme, right? Like, there is no "trutrans narrative" and that not all of us think it's determined prenatally?

>>7530829
>may extend into adulthood
>may
You're saying the paper does say what the very title says only may happen?

>>7530853
Mhmm. And?

>>7530863
Then I've answered your question about how I know your claim is contradicted by the papers you cite.

>>7530878
What is my claim?

>>7530849
>not all of us think it's determined prenatally?
Who doesn't?

>>7530887
Gee whiz, maybe the person who said that not all of us think it is.

>>7530881
A neurological cause of transgenderism.

>>7530894
What is your view then...?

>>7530773
how can i read these for free?

every journal seems to have a subscription.

>>7530895
The fact that the paper states that the sexual differentiation that typifies transsexuals can (may) carry over into adulthood is precisely supportive of my claim that it is a neurological issue, because, had you read the study, you would know that the results Chung et al find is that the MtFs studied were the subjects who produced the results being tested, i.e. a nucleic bed in the BSTc which is similar to those of women rather than men. Fuckin' noob.

>>7530928
You claimed it is, for a fact, a neurological issue. As you say, the study simply says it's possible.

Which one is it? If the study is right, why did you cite it for your claim that it is known to be neurological?

>>7530927
I doubt it. I accessed them from college a few years ago. Euh, lemme check around and I'll see if I can still grab them.

>>7530944
You know I just grabbed a couple of papers, right? I can go get other links. There is a rather large amount of evidence in favour of this claim.

>>7530923
I think the jury is out on when the transsexual brain is set to develop, so I don't really care. Most sources I've read seem to suggest it is either determined in the womb or during very early childhood, like infancy to age 5 or some shit. I don't particularly care when it develops. The thing I'm interested in is the fact that every source seems to indicate that it is neurological regardless.

>>7530960
>You know I just grabbed a couple of papers, right?
How about ones that actually support your claim, instead of saying the opposite, that it's unknown?

>There is a rather large amount of evidence in favour of this claim.
I'm sure there's plenty more papers that don't say it that you still consider proof.

>>7530974
>instead of saying the opposite, that it's unknown?
Are you retarded?
>don't say it that you still consider proof.
Again, whatever helps you sleep at night, kiddo.

>>7530985
...seriously?

>>7530974
Guillamon, A., Junque, C. & Gómez-Gil, E. Arch Sex Behav (2016) 45: 1615.
it won't let me link it directly because it thinks it's spam but the study is available in full for free, no paywall
this should help you understand two things:
>why we know at least some trans people are neurologically intersex
>why 'the jury is out' about neurological intersexuality

>>7530996
Downloaded. I don't believe it will confirm that.

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Reminder to please be friendly to each other! Please no name calling or I will be forced to bring in a moderator.

>>7530566


"Specifiers and subtypes

The numbers of specifiers and subtypes in the DSM-5 has been expanded to account for efforts to dimensionalize disorders more so than in the DSM-IV.

Within the depressive disorders and bipolar and related disorders, a specifier of “with mixed features” replaces the diagnosis of bipolar I, mixed episode in the DSM-IV, given that subthreshold mixed states of major depressive and manic episodes are much more common and may have specific treatment implications 42,43 but would be excluded from diagnosis by continuing DSM-IV's requirement that full criteria are met for both syndromes."

- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3683251/

From what I understand it was only done to make it easier on the people researching it.

Other than that I honestly don't know without being a psychologist myself.

>>7530566
>So let's have a nice discussion about it!
...You're not from 'round here, are ya?

Gender nonconformity is not an illness.

>>7530566
I would say that it's technically a congenital disorder rather than a mental disorder, because it's likely caused by hormonal exposure in the womb.

>>7531563

Yes but cutting off your genitals and and being massively depressed and suicidal because you're not the gender you want to be sounds pretty ill. If anything it's the opposite of gender nonconformity. You're trying so hard to fit into your desired gender.

>>7531579
Hey, do you have any sources for this? Pretty interested in this claim.

FUCKING bigots

>>7530566
>I'm seeing it be reclassified in a few places now but I can't find any reasons for it besides wanting transgender people to feel better about themselves - which is complete ass in my opinion.

The problem is psychology isn't a real science. It has a 25% replication rate:

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/aug/27/study-delivers-bleak-verdict-on-validity-of-psychology-experiment-results

Hard sciences should have a 100% replication rate and even soft sciences usually shoot for around 60%. Further what is and isn't included in the DSM is decided essentially by vote and even then they are really only looking at groups of symptoms rather than root causes.

If a broken arm was treated the same way as a mental illness you would be diagnosed with 'arm pain disorder' given pain pills and antidepressents and be sent on your way, all without ever having your arm actually fixed.

So to ask whether or not transgenderism is a mental disorder is a bunk question as there really isn't any objective scientific criteria on what a 'mental disorder' is.

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>>7532672

Let's use DSM's proposed definition then. DSM 5 is the book everyone goes to and for all purposes should be the official criteria for it.

Why does it even matter, when transition is the only known treatment?

Felt like I supposed to be a girl since 5 years old, but I didn't feel any dysphoria, just wanted to grow up as a girl.
At 12 when puberty hit I felt super depressed and suicidal, somehow repressed it at 13.
After that I feel dysphoria very rare, only one month per year, I am 19 now.
Am I trans or not?
If I am, should I transition if I have women 9 shoe size and my face is handsome?

>>7532836
See a gender therapist.

>>7530566
I mean yeah it's a dysmorphia similar to anorexia, it's not bad but it is technically speaking a disorder as Is being gay desu