I just had a little talk with someone who disagrees with me about

>>7439609
>arguing in youtube comments
how about you just kys

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>>7439637
I know what you mean, but whatever.
I just really want a third opinion on this

>>7439637
What if you're banned from speaking anywhere else. It's not uncommon for me to be banned from 8 or 10 websites at once for saying Christians are evil monsters, not including the sites I'm banned from for life. I tell the truth wherever I can, and don't much care if other people tell me to take it elsewhere.

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>>7439658
I'm not banned from everywhere.
I just enjoy talking to people on youtube
Sometimes it's a great time

>>7439673
I didn't ask you if you were banned from anywhere. I asked what a person should do if they are.

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>>7439683
Oh sorry, I misunderstood.
If a person in banned from basically everything. They should probably find other people with similar problems.
You might also want to think why you've been banned.
We also had a chat on discord. I can post that if anyone cares

>>7439698
I was banned for telling the truth. Are you suggesting I stop telling the truth?

>>7439609
you have a very strong opinion for not knowing the basics. the whole point and premise of transitioning is that you can't change gender, neurological structure, but can change sex to a large degree.
also fuck you for putting us at higher standards than other people just because other people are assholes to us. that's bullshit.
i'm not going to bother reading the rest because i already know that i don't like you and disagree with you.

>>7439729

I stopped when they apologized if anyone that might identify as an attack helicopter was offended.

>>7439729
>but can change sex to a large degree
but sex can be changed to a large degree*

>>7439729
I understand and you don't have to read any more. I'm just looking for an outside opinion.
I don't think I put anyone on a higher standard, but if you got that impression I apologize, that was not my intent.
My problem is in general that people who don't like me and disagree with me, don't tell me what I'm doing wrong. People just go, "nope, you're wrong and you're an idiot"
But how am I supposed to learn from that?
I'm also confused about
"you can't change gender, neurological structure, but can change sex to a large degree." I think the complete opposite is true. You can't change your chromosomes, but you can change the idea of what you think you are.
Gender is more flexible than anything I can imagine, it can be changed whenever you want. Sex is just male, female or intersex.
>>7439737
I did that because I believe if someone really does identify as an attack helicopter. That should be respect just as trans people, cis people or any other people. I knew he was messing around with maymays, but it doesn't matter. I still think my message was clear.
>>7439738
I might be on the wrong side of history here, but I don't think sex can be changed. Gender can and that's what's important. Not sex, gender.

Basically I feel I was being calm and informative (obviously, that's what everyone in an argument think9
I'e just like to know if you guy see flaws in my argumentation.
Or something the other person explained but I didn't understand.

I'd appreciate some help

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>>7439829
I don't care who's right and who's wrong.
I just want to see outside opinions on this discussion and maybe you guys have something to say neither of us even considered

>>7439637
This.

>>7439795
>gender can be changed whenever you want

So you're saying that gender, how someone perceives their body's secondary sexual characteristics, is up to choice. This invalidates every trans person's struggle with dysphoria, and I sincerely hope you don't respond to that by saying that people don't need dysphoria to be trans. If that is the case, you are cancer to the fight for trans people to receive proper medical care for their conditions, because that means hormone therapy and surgeries should be classified as purely cosmetic.

People who "identify" as animals and objects and want fake pronouns to be special snowflakes are called otherkin, and they make all of us trans people like like absolute insane blithering morons. The vast majority of them are young women in their teens and early 20s who are disconnected with reality and want to find some new, crazy way to be "unique and special."

>I'm the red marker
Oh geez.

It looks like you picked a fight with blue, then proceeded to text wall them with unnecessary analogies and pathos. After over-reaching, blue cuts you down with some common anti-trans/queer arguments, which you should have been expecting. You handled them badly and embarrassed yourself. Even if one didn't agree with blue, they would be forced to acknowledge they came across as more reasonable, and ultimately more persuasive, ie. they "won" the argument you forced upon them.

You come across to me as rather butthurt:
>just saw the negativity and thought I'd drop by
>I hope one day you'll learn to live, love and forgive
>I have nothing more to add
>I suppose I'll reply once more even though I said I wouldn't
>just to drop the mic
>and it's not good enough for me, I suffer from it
which combined with the aforementioned makes you a walking stereotype of the asspained transplainer. All you needed was a good "educate xerself, shitlord" to complete the ensemble.

I have no idea why you were picking this fight in the first place - and you undoubtedly were. Your posts were several times the length of blue's initially, and it was only much later in the argument, after sufficient provocation, that blue started posting in paragraphs. You realised yourself early on that you weren't going to win and tried to extricate yourself. But you kept letting blue pull you back in! Very early on, too, blue managed to shift the goals and you didn't even realise. Instead of attacking blue, you presented your own argument and gave blue the easy job of critic. It is much, much easier to attack than defend.

So I would suggest:
>be less emotional
>be more succinct
>prepare your arguments and their defence beforehand (it's not cheating)
>drop the "mic drop"s and other tumblr-esque *holds up spork* quirkiness.
>more Socratic method, less analogy (unless it's a really good one)

>>7440068
>>7440068
That's a really good point, but it's just something I like to do. I get where you're coming from
>>7440182
I don't agree with most of the things you say.
Even with the "People who "identify" as animals and objects and want fake pronouns to be special snowflakes are called otherkin"
The solution is to let them be themselves and support them in their choices
I'll give you an example that happened to me this month, it's kind of different but it should work in this context
I was boarding away when I saw a loli thread .
Some guy was wondering where they could find a pet loli. I offered to be their loli. I gave them my everything so they would let me be their loli.
I offered to do it for free and if they didn't like it I'd leave with no hard feelings. They didn't accept and left the thread.
Now I know that's far out but it works kind of the same way here. If you think you identify as an attack helicopter, you'll be confused when people actually take you serious and reconsider
What I'm doing is taking everyone's image of their self seriously, because if that's who they really are, they won't be offended. If that's not who they really are, it'll help them see that.
That's how I see it
>>7440256
Picking a fight wasn't my intention, but yeah, like said earlier it IS youtube comments after all. I think I mentioned in there at some point.
I'm surprised you see blue as the "winner" here.
They insulted me, attacked me on a personal level, they claimed I "aren't".
> All you needed was a good "educate xerself, shitlord" to complete the ensemble.
We both know that will never work. I wanted to educate this guy, he refused everything I gave him, and spit in my face.
I didn't care about winning, I just wanted to teach them something they clearly don't understand. I really wanted to leave the conversation at the first pick, but I got dragged in for 6 pages and a discord discussion I can post if you want.
It seems we understand each other as well as blue and red.

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>>7442064
this picture show's my philosophy very well

>>7442064
This loli bullshit literally makes no sense.

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>>7442301
I like to talk in metaphors, because to me it's easier to get my point across that way.
Maybe it's not as efficient as I think.
The point is, if someone wants to be something, was it trans, genderfluid or an attack helicopter.
You should accept it and support that person to be who they want to be.
If you show up at the their house with helicopter rotors or something, they have some options.
1. They're thrilled that you're willing to help them express themselves
2. They appreciate your effort, but you're not actually helping. Being an attack helicopter isn't what I think, so they can try to explain it to me or just ask me not to try to help.
3. They realize that the identity they gave themselves isn't their own, it's someone else's or no ones.

Being helpful and supportive is the only real solution to any problem.

"You, at a basic level, are a combination of dozens (or more) of identities that merge to form one unique individual. Some of these identities were granted to you at birth (e.g., race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality), others were imposed on or ascribed to you as a child (e.g., socioeconomic status, geographical location, education), some are your choice throughout life (e.g., religion, hobbies, career), and some aren’t (e.g., ability status, identities falsely assumed of you by others)"

I found a never version of the genderbread person.
I agree but I don't think you can express those things with a line, it's just done that way because it's easier.
Gender isn't a 1 dimensional line or a 2 dimensional square where you'll find yourself.
It's at the very least in 3 dimensions, might be even more. But since this is a weird concept for people to understand, they'll just use the binary system of "you either are or you aren't" not realizing you can be neither, both or completely out of that system.
It'll take some really good explaining to make me think otherwise, and so will me explaining "my" idea to others

>>7439609
Strongly agree with blue, here.

>>7439609
sorry, only read the beginning, but I also think that putting lgbt and queers together is stupid and a lesbian doesn't have anything more in common with me then a hon, a bear gay male or a ftm, and that is, nothing at all

lgbt is a population, not a community

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>>7442460
>>7442499
It's nothing but a categorization issue.
I understand if you don't want to read the whole thing, It's long and exhausting.
For someone interested I'll post our discord chat here. I removed our usernames and replaced them with red and blue, the same as they are in the pictures.
http://pastebin.com/s1wPCx1U

Being a human is a category we all are a part of, then you start making subcategories for yourself so you can express yourself more freely. Expressing yourself just as a human is hard. In my mind it's like a tree, where in the top there is only 1 category, human (you could argue other animals and life-forms should be there too, but for the sake of my argument I'll simplify it a bit). From human the subcategories begin, from the simplest questions like are you a boy or a girl, to how much of a girl do you feel like you are. At the bottom of this tree are individuals, they are in categories where there's only 1 person, they themselves.

It's a human right to be able to freely choose the category you feel you belong in, or make a new one if you don't feel you belong anywhere.
My problem is that I can't understand people who don't see identification like this.
Human language is flawed, I can say one thing and mean something with it, but you might understand it totally different, that creates arguments, sadness, pain and suffering.
But getting everyone to agree to this one simple system or an idea is very hard.

If someone's interested in the way I see the world, check out some articles on this website, but please think critically of everything, don't just read it and accept it. Read it, think about it, find out how you feel about it and then maybe agree.
http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2011/11/breaking-through-the-binary-gender-explained-using-continuums/#sthash.zhDgnwCW.dpbs

I will never understand how mistreated people pass on the hate they received.
Sure it sucks, but why make other people feel the same pain .

>>7439720
Sorry I forgot to reply to you, hopefully you're still around sometime.
Some places aren't for the truth.
I'm not even sure what you mean by truth and I'm not sure if you were telling the truth at all.
Truth is a weird concept.
What was your bannable truth?

>>7439609
I like you op

Your only real mistake was arguing anonymously and asking for opinions on 4chan

>>7442064
>I wanted to educate this guy, he refused everything I gave him, and spit in my face
Pearls before swine, friendo.

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>>7442680
Thanks I appreciate that, I love you too :)
My anonymous arguing I kind of me just training for real world arguing.
I like to talk to people on youtube, 4chan or wherever.
I'm just looking to learn and if I keep my thoughts in my own head I'll never learn anything new. I NEED to share my thoughts, get constructive criticism, people explaining why I'm wrong at some things, people who might agree with me, but have something little to "correct" or give me another perspective.

Basically I need people to disagree with me, but I'd be very happy if they explained why so we could work together to both learn something new.
In my chat blue vs red, I learned too late that our idea of gender is completely different. Language is a hard thing because things often are misunderstood.
I see gender as more of a general identity, but if I'm wrong, then what is the thing I see as gender then called? Is it just identity? Those things seems very familiar.

I want to argue openly with my own name with people I know, I'm just afraid of being wrong and ridiculed, so I practice online. I don't see nothing wrong with that.
The question I've been thinking about lately is; Can I even be wrong? Is there a correct answer? How could I be wrong or right if there is no truth. It's all in our ethics and morale.
I love everyone unconditionally and equally.
If you disagree with me, insult me or dehumanize me, I'll forgive you, love you and hope you'll find peace.
I know I'm pretty corny but I'm just being myself, nothing more.
It makes me very sad that I can't find people with similar ideas of the world.
>>7442707
I did my best, but it wasn't enough.
It doesn't matter it's ok. I'm just worried about that other person. Now that I think about it, it's "spat in my face" right? It's funny how you see other peoples mistakes so easily, but seeing your own mistakes is so hard.
Pearls and swine deserve the same respect

>>7442354

The point of the attack helicopter analogy is to show that your logic leads to an absurd conclusion. One cannot be what one is not, especially when what is identifying as can be clearly defined in such a way that it does not coincide with any physical description of one's self. An attack helicopter possesses a spinning blade that allows it to fly by means of beating the air into submission. If one does not possess this spinning blade, by no means can one be an attack helicopter, any more than a rock can be grass, or a circle can be a square.

I thank you for your article. However, I am actually a Palestinian killer who was born to kill and although peace probably appeals to peace loving bisexuals limke you and your parents, I happen to be a death dealing blood crased Christ killer who just wakes up every morning hoping for the opportunity to dismember my enemies and defile their civilisation. Palestine will never be a state, at least while Israel has nuclear weapons. I hate Muslims.
Regards,
Rebecca Michael

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>>7442773
You could use the same analogy with trans people.
Saying you need a dick to be a man or a vagina to be a woman, but I'm pretty sure we both agree that's not how gender works.
You can't physically transform, but you don't need to. All you need to do is to express yourself in a way that feels good to you.
I don't know how an attack helicopter person would do it but I don't need to know, because I'm not like that.
I'm pretty sure all people on this board have been discriminated at, and I don't understand why you must spread that to other people who are slightly different from you.
>>7442787
I hope you'll find peace and love in your life.
If you want to kill and wreck havoc around the world, please do that to other people who also want to kill and wreck havoc. Don't go killing people who want to live.

Consent is one of the most important things there are and everyone should do their best at understanding it.
I hope I don't offend you, but Palestine, Israel or Muslims are irrelevant. There are issues in, but they would be fixed if more people applied my mentality on empathy.
I also acknowledge that I can't rid the world of evil because there needs to be balance.
Were my utopia in place, so many forms of art wouldn't exist and I'm not sure if I'm ok with that.

In short, I'm still learning and my theory/idea/utopia is still in the making, and might never be finished. I don't mind and I'll still work on it because I keep learning new things and it's intriguing to me.

>>7442834

If someone honestly believes that they are an attack helicopter, a lion, a star, a whatever they have a mental issue. If they just really like those things cool, fine, but to play into them thinking that they actually are... Holy keking shit.

>>7443647
If someone honesty believes the things you said, they don't need our judgement. They need our love and understanding.

>>7443759

Our uderstanding in that they have an issue that needs medical attetion and not to be ridiculed sure. I'm all for that, but no one should sit there and go "ah, OK Billy you think you're a sunflower and want to go stand in a pot outside all afternoon, good for you." That isn't an identity, that's a mental problem that needs addressed.

>>7444242
Well at least where I live.
If you want hormones it's a long process where professional psychiatrists talk to you and basically try their best at understanding what you are and want to be.
Someone who's faking it for attention can be seen through.

I also think, if Billy spent 16h standing in a pot being a sunflower, that time would probably be good for him. He'd maybe realize that this sunflower thing isn't maybe as great as I thought.
All people are learning, and there's nothing wrong with asking others for help to learn something we don't understand.

Be it math, taxes or your gender or identity.
Talking about it to others means you aren't circlejerking the same thoughts in your head.
You'll find new new perspectives or maybe you'll be more sure of something you already thought about.

It's all about human contact, trust and love.

>>7444267

Being a man and wanting to be female or female and wanting to be a man is one thing. And you should have to go through a long process to transition, it's an extremely life altering thing.

But to say or believe that you're a whole different organism or object, ridiculous. Talking sure, young people especially, but to support someone who feels they are anything but a human is not healthy behavior.

>>7444317
Good point, but the whole mess started with a person saying genderfluidity isn't real and it's hurting actual trans people.
By identifying as genderfluid or otherwise non-binary, I can't see how it's harmful for those who are certain of their gender, sexuality or identity.
I don't like to commit to things because I know myself and I know it's not something I'd be happy doing.
I'll assume you're talking about people who identify as otherkin. It's understandable to not understand that idea, but I still think society should accept it and support people going through those motions.
Sure it's weird or even dumb to us, but it doesn't matter. They get to be who they are without judgement, and that's what I like.
Being yourself without judgement.

By support I mean human contact, honest discussions, new perspectives, other peoples experiences; stuff like that.
If you're alone with your thoughts, they easily get twisted and weird, but when you get to share them with people who don't judge you, hear stories of other people with similar issues and how they dealt with it or just trying to turn your thoughts into words. That will help you more than anything you'd be able to do alone.
If you have no one you want to talk to, you can get a therapist, a person who listens and understands people for a living. If you feel your therapist doesn't understand you, you can find another one.

Posting on the internet can help too, but in the end I suggest actual human contact.
Maybe you'll practice online and take notes of your and other peoples ideas, and then show them to the therapist so they can understand you better.

I hope you understand what I mean