Existence of gender

>>6941736
gender is most likely neurological sex according to sparse but intriguing research on the topic
it has been accepted medical fact for several decades that the only treatment for sex discordance (also known as transsexualism, gender identity disorder, and gender dysphoria) is transition
if there was a different treatment, it would be used

>>6941812
>neurological sex
This definitely is a made up phrase. What were you trying to say.
And I wouldnt call it a treatment with its suicide rate. More like a patch that just makes the problem worse.

"Hi, I'm Patrick. We spoke on the phone earlier. "
--"Nice to meet you Patrick"
"Actually, all my family and friends use Pat, and I prefer that instead."
--"Alright Pat, let's discuss working at Shit Corp"

Likewise in a completely humane and peaceful world..
"Okay everyone, I'd like to introduce you to Pat. He'll be joining the team."
>Pat chimes in..
"Sorry for the confusion about my appearance, I'm actually a woman."
>boss corrects
"Oh, sorry about the mistake Pat. Okay everyone be sure to make her feel welcome!"

Of course, in reality, people who prefer another pronoun have a profound mental condition that requires transitioning via screening for mental health, HRT, surgery, and years of adjusting their presentation. By the time you meet them, you likely just default to calling them whatever they appear to be or at least -- trying to be

Enter (You)

You're an autist. You decide that everything in your life is literal and definite. Therefore, everyone else's life must adhere to your literal and definite definitions. You frequently use a dictionary not as a tool to learn new vocab or spelling; but instead as a lexicon of MEANING.

You are the one with the issue. Now, if someone wishes to be called Xie/Xer/xim, that is drastically more difficult for everyone that isn't that one retarded individual.

Please do try and argue against this

>>6941824
neurological sex, as in sexual dimorphism in the brain
it makes perfect sense to anyone who knows what either of those words mean
also have you even looked at the 'high suicide rate' studies? sex discordant people have such high rates of suicide and mental distress pre-transition that while transition greatly lowers this it doesn't make them equal to the general population -- and you shouldn't expect it to be. why would a group of people unified by their great suffering and functional disability have a low suicide rate even post-treatment? transition is objectively a successful treatment in that it reduces the disabling aspects of the condition and allows one to function in society at above baseline functioning, and is extremely rarely regretted. nothing else that has been attempted comes close to that. in fact, there are few conditions that can be treated nearly as successfully as sex discordance.

>>6941838
This analogy fails in many ways. But for ease of pointing it out Ill use the same one.
>Likewise in a completely humane and peaceful world..
>"Okay everyone, I'd like to introduce you to Pat. He'll be joining the team."
>Pat chimes in..
>"Sorry for the confusion about my appearance, I'm actually a rock and do not have a sex."
>boss corrects
>"Oh, sorry about the mistake Pat. Okay everyone be sure to make it feel welcome!"

While a name is a method to identify you from others, a persons "gender" is just there to refer to if they are male or female. The concept of gender escpecially in your analogy highlights why it seems to crazy.
Now Im not sure if you were hypothetically speaking about me being the only one, but that is definitely false. Part of why I am so vocal about it is because after I speak out others who didnt want to deal with the drama chime in. Ive actually been praised for mentioning my stance because back when I was in uni, the professor said he actually allowed people to talk about it instead of ignoring the issue.

>>6941841
>neurological sex, as in sexual dimorphism in the brain
Im not entirely sure you understand the words you are using. But Ill ignore that for now.
>transition is objectively a successful treatment in that it reduces the disabling aspects of the condition and allows one to function in society at above baseline functioning, and is extremely rarely regretted
Most of this is actually false. We also seem to disagree on what treatment is. You are not fixing gender dysmorphia, you are trying to patch it. The fact that these people MUST hide it is definitely not how I describe functioning in society.

>>6941867
Haha, and in what world is someone confused for a rock instead of a human. Or a rock confused for a human.

I see you're just (poorly) baiting now. So I'll leave you to your vices. PROTIP: most people don't troll and have hobbies

>>6941874
Are you incapable of understanding analogies. If you can distinguish between the two analogies in how they differ on core principles then please do. Both are equally as ridiculous. One is just what some people are doing now. There are legitimate people who believe they are reptiles and so forth. We lock them away. I dont really see why you would treat this differently.

>>6941873
yes, i understand the words i am using. what makes you think i do not?
my statement is agreed upon by the greater medical community and beared out by the experiences of thousands of transitioners, some of whom live happily out and others happily stealth. and by your definition of treatment, very few conditions are ever treated. of course treatment for sex discordancy is palliative, it's far from alone in that aspect.
>>6941877
if trans people could be treated by locking them away, that's how they would be treated. that's how the medical community tried to treat them for decades. it does not work. transition does.

>>6941898
>if trans people could be treated by locking them away, that's how they would be treated. that's how the medical community tried to treat them for decades. it does not work. transition does.
Locking people doesnt work on anyone. We still do it to crazy people. Though I will say if you locked them away youd probably see a lower suicide rate.
Do you think allowing mentally ill people to transform themselves into animals and live in the wild would be a treatment. Because no one else does.
>yes, i understand the words i am using. what makes you think i do not?
Because you strung two words together complement each other. The phrase itself doesnt make sense but Im not going to linger on that.
>my statement is agreed upon by the greater medical community and beared out by the experiences of thousands of transitioners, some of whom live happily out and others happily stealth
I honestly do not understand why you are making these facts up. But again it doesnt really matter for the most part. It doesnt address the point that hiding in society is not being a functioning member of it. If we were to switch the topic and say the only way to be a functioning member of a society is to pretend to be a different race (common for mulattoes) then it clearly indicates a problem.

Back before I transitioned, I'd always feel awful about the same thing: my guyish appearance, my guyish voice, and how I knew that because of the testosterone that my body produced, it would only ever become worse as time went on. I don't know why this bothered me so but I strongly wished not to be like that and instead have always had an image in my head of what I wanted to be like, and ever since puberty I had been becoming less and less like that and I felt powerless and disgusted.

Since I transitioned, not only do I get to hear people telling me I am the way I want to be (cute and feminine), I also finally get to worry about other issues that I CAN solve on my own, that had been drowned out in the past. Even if I still feel depressed from time to time I just don't feel that excruciating powerlessness any more. It really feels like an issue I had had for many years (I first felt like it was an issue when I was 4 and I'm 19 now) has finally been neutralised, if not fixed, and it expanded the set of things I can do in life to be happy.

Of course my transition isn't perfect. But I can dress how I want and the people I care about agree with my thoughts on what person I am. That's all I wish for. I don't want to cause anyone trouble. I know I have caused people trouble in the past by transitioning at all, but they seem to be okay now, and I think it's better than lying to them pretending to be doing fine letting them worry about me without being able to do anything to help for all these years.

>>6941927
>I get to hear people telling me I am the way I want to be (cute and feminine)
Are these people aware of your transition. Would they be disgusted if they knew. Would you still get satisfaction from it if you knew that theyd be disgusted if they knew.
Rolling with the reptile analogy. What are your thoughts on people who feel as though they are and should have been born a different animal. The ones who go overseas to get surgeries that would never be allowed in the US at least. Would you consider it odd if a person wished to have their limbs amputated and treated like say a pet walrus (gruesome movie of a guy who did this to someone but it came to my head and is relevant).

>>6941962
95% of the people I've told weren't disgusted, actually. They usually say "really? I had no idea!" and go on to compliment me, or say "yeah, I had my suspicions" and joke about it, it's about 50-50 I think. I think it's only once that someone cited the bible and stuff when I told them. Maybe I'm just lucky the people around me aren't so toxic.

And I do think those things you talk about where people try to become animals are really crazy. But I like to think that I'm not THAT insane.

To say the least, I think a woman should be able to function in society better than a walrus would. That's why transgenderism is so different from transspecies: the former is not inherently dysfunctional because people of both sexes already exist anyway, while the latter definitely is because animals aren't people. I'm essentially just trying to fit in with the group of people that are women, a group that exists and is widespread; people who want to be a rock or a walrus aren't trying to fit in at all because that's just not an existing social group.

I think whether or not it should be theoretically possible for me to fit in that group when originally didn't is a different matter. Personally I like to think I can, at least to some extent. Of course I don't mean to go as far with fitting in that it would destroy my individuality, though. Some transgender people do and they try to be really stereotypical but I think that's at least a bit silly, but to each their own.

>>6942018
>Maybe I'm just lucky the people around me aren't so toxic.
Have you taken into consideration that these people arent up front with it. Imo experience people talk behind each others backs way too much and transgenders get it pretty bad. Whats your experience with these kinds of people.
>I think a woman should be able to function in society better than a walrus would
Well you could argue that it depends on society. For ease ill just say that if you were living amongst walruses the woman would have a harder time. Do you feel as though transgender and transspecies is something that is only crazy in perspective to society or that one is fundamentally more crazy than the other.
>I'm essentially just trying to fit in with the group of people that are women
Do you legitimately consider yourself one of them.
Also back on the animal thing. How do you feel about people who undergo those extreme surgeries while still being a member of society. They arent inherently dysfunctional because of the change. Sure theyre crazy, but the can still run a business.

You seem to be really hung up on people trying to look like animals via surgery. Humans have two genders. One can be either.

Are you retarded?

>>6942056
No, its just you cant see core principles or the similarities for some reason.

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>>6941736
you're delusional
gender is related to genitals
one sex makes sperm
one sex makes eggs
males in homosapians have more testosterone which causes more muscle gain and body hair and draws you to the ones with more estrogen
estrogen causes more thigh bone development and breast development for being able to birth and rear young
Humans are a small sect of mammals in which both genders can produce breast milk
its not society's fault you aren't happy with your gender stereotypes, its not going to change.
if you don't feel happy with them, you don't have to identify with the standards
telling people they have to respect your pronouns and made up genders is whats going to get a bad reaction 90% of the time
if you want to act feminine go ahead, no one can stop you
if you want to act masculine go ahead, still no one can stop you
its all this drama about identity thats just digging its own grave

>>6941867
a person's gender exists to clarify pronoun references

In the sentence "John told Jane that she was fired" we know Jane was fired, and in the sentence "John told Jane that he was fired" we know that John was fired. This makes pronouns easier to use since they refer only to half of the population each. Those sentences with two males or two females would have to be said in a more awkward way.

>>6942092
>a person's gender exists to clarify pronoun references
Yes because their sex matters. If sex didnt matter at all we wouldnt have those pronouns in the first place. In english there is no gender neutral pronoun but there is in many other languages. And that rest of them just use the male one as the neutral one. Its not some form of self identification though which was the point I made in that post.

>>6942042
I've taken it into consideration and concluded they were being upfront. This is my opinion based on experience.

Furthermore, I live in this society of humans, not one of walruses, so I don't think it matters to me what a society of walruses would be like; I'm talking about the society I live in where half of the population is female. This is a fact. Even as an analog it fals apart; after all, the analog of me trying to be a woman in this society, is the analog of trying to be a walrus in sea animal society; not trying to be a woman inside a society where women don't exist. Keep in mind I'm not trying to become transgender; you'd be right about the analog if that were the case.
They do depend on society though. In an animal society where the thing that bring people together is not their species but merely being a living thing, transspecies would be more accepted, I think.

As for considering myself a woman, it doesn't matter to me any more. What's more important to me is that I am who I am and that I'm free to show my genuine feelings and don't have to be fake. Here in the Netherlands it is culturally expected to be genuine regardless of whether or not it is pleasant (although when you're used to it it's quite pleasant), so that helps. What's more important to me is that people I care about consider me to be a woman. I can't rationally explain this but I instinctively feel a sense of being understood when they do.

Based on that last bit and various experiences I've had and feelings I felt, I strongly suspect that on a subconscious level I consider myself female, but am unable to come to this conclusion logically. This is actually a discrepancy I've experienced since puberty started, and it's led to a lot of denial, repression and even depersonalization (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalization). Nowadays I deal with it by accepting the feeling and not thinking about it logically, because trying to prove it only negatively affects my mental state.

>>6942076
>90%
Sick meme. Been out 2 years and out of the hundreds of people that know only 1 person has given me a slightly negative reaction.

Literally nobody fucking cares.

>>6942159
>Literally nobody fucking cares.
Why lie

>>6942159

That means you don't live in a shithole.

Congrats!

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>>6941736
It's another edition of:
>Op wishes to hand waive away the tremendous amount of evidence that supports brain sex.

>Berglund "Berglund, H. et al. “Male-to-Female Transsexuals Show Sex-Atypical Hypothalamus Activation When Smelling Odorous Steroids". A positron emission tomography (PET) study showed that smelling androgens (male pheromones) caused transwomen to respond in the hypothalamus region of their brain in a manner similar to XX karyotype women. However, smelling estrogen-based pheromones also caused them to respond in the hypothalamus region in a manner similar to XY karyotype men. This combination of results suggests that transwomen occupy an “intermediate position with predominantly female features” in the way the hypothalamus reacted.

>Yokota, Y. et al “Callosal Shapes at the Midsagittal Plane: MRI Differences of Normal Males, Normal Females, and GID”. An MRI study of 22 transwomen and 28 transmen examined the shape of the corpus callosum in the brain at a specific cross-sectional plane, and compared this shape with that observed in 211 XY karyotype males and 211 XX karyotype females. Their results demonstrated that not only could the sex of the patient be determined with 74% accuracy from the MRI picture, but the shapes of the brains in the transsexuals strongly reflected their gender, and not their biological sex.

>Hare "Androgen receptor repeat length polymorphism associated wth male-to-female transsexualism." Genes involved in sex steroidogenesis are components to transgenderism and gender dysphoria; specifically, androgen receptor repeat length polymorphisms were observed in an MtF-transgender population, but not a cismale population; this warrants the conclusion that male gender identity is mediated by the androgen receptor.

>Gooren "The biology of human psychosexual differentiation." Meta-analysis of sex-steroid production and prenatal androgen exposure in transgender people.

>>6941736
>>6942199

>Garcia-Falgueras "A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity." The structure of the anterior hypothalamus plays a strong role in the development of transgenderism; INAH3 volume in transwomen resembles ciswomen, and INAH3 volume in transmen resembles cismen.

>Luders "Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism." MtF transgender people were analyzed by fMRI; gray matter variation throughout the brain more closely resembled the layout of a cisfeminine brain, rather than that of a cismasculine brain, implying gender identity depends on cerebral layout.

>Rametti "White matter microstructure in female to male transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A diffusion tensor imaging study." By diffusion-tensor-imaging MRI and fractional anisotropy analysis of various transgender and cisgender people, FtM transgender people more closely resembled a masculine-structured brain than a feminine- structured brain, noted by the study in the structures of the right superior longitudinal fasciculus, the foreceps minor, and the corticospinal tract. White matter microstructure therefore plays a role in gender identity.

>Burke "Hypothalamic response to the chemo-signal androstadienone in gender dysphoric children and adolescents". Androstadienone, a particularly fragrant chemosignal responsible for sex-based differences in hypothalamic microstructure; children with gender dysphoria were observed to express differences in hypothalamic activation in accordance with identified gender, rather than assigned gender.

>Zhou "A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality." BSTc size in transwomen resembles that of ciswomen and is independent of sexual orientation.

>>6942201
>>6942199
>>6941736

>Boston University Medical Center. "Transgender: Evidence on the biological nature of gender identity." The researchers conducted a literature search and reviewed articles that showed positive biologic bases for gender identity. These included disorders of sexual development, such as penile agenesis, neuroanatomical differences, such as grey and white matter studies, and steroid hormone genetics, such as genes associated with sex hormone receptors. They conclude that current data suggests a biological etiology for transgender identity.

>Bao, Hahn, Kranz, Kaufmann "Structural Connectivity Networks of Transgender People". 94 subjects, 23 FtM, 21 MtF, 25 cisFemale, 25 cisMale: average age 26. Transsexual subjects did not fulfill criteria for current comorbidities but 9 reported history of depression (n = 2), specific phobias (n = 3), obsessive compulsive disorder (n = 1), anorexia nervosa (n = 2), and substance abuse (n = 4). All patients reported subjective feelings to belong to the other gender before or at puberty. Investigating structural networks in female-to-male and male-to-female transsexuals, we observed differences in hemispheric and lobar connectivity as well as local efficiencies when compared with healthy controls.

>Zubiaurre “Cortical Thickness in Untreated Transsexuals”. A 2012 study examined cortical thickness in the brain between 29 XY karyotype males, 23 XX karyotype females, 24 transmen, and 18 transwomen. None of the transsexual subjects had received any hormone treatment prior to the study. Using an MRI, the researchers found that the transwomen had more cortical thickness than the XY males in three regions of the brain. The transmen showed evidence of masculinization of their grey matter. In all transsexuals studied, the key differences from their biological sex were found in the right hemisphere. On a graph, transpeople statistically fell in the middle between the XX and XY karyotypes.

>>6942180
not everyone is autistic and obsessed with transgender people like you are anon
people really don't care if someone is trans as long as they don't cause trouble by making unreasonable demands or whatever

>>6941736
>>6942201
>>6942199
>>6942205

>
Swaab "Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism, and sexual orientation." Analysis of prenatal androgen exposure similar to Gooren, but notes that neurological testosterone availability in MtF trans people is deficient, causing transgenderism or non-heterosexualism.

>Bentz "A polymorphism of the CYP17 gene related to sex steroid metabolism is associated with female-to-male but not male-to-female transsexualism." CYP17 -34 T>C SNP allele frequencies were statistically significantly divergent between FtM transgender people and cisfemale controls; genotype distributions were also divergent in a statistically significant manner.

>V.S. Ramachandran "Occurrence of phantom genitalia after gender reassignment surgery". Around 60% of cis-men who have had to have their penis amputated for cancer will experience a phantom penis. Data from several dozen post-operative subjects lends support to our prediction that they have a lower incidence of phantom penis/breast sensations than ‘‘normal’’ individuals who have undergone amputation of the same appendage, for other medical reasons. More remarkably our prediction that female-tomale transsexuals would have a phantom penis also 1002 Ramachandran and McGeoch seems to be correct. Indeed, more than half of the around 30 female-to-male transsexuals we have interviewed, claim to have experienced this, often since early childhood.

>>6941824

>And I wouldnt call it a treatment with its suicide rate. More like a patch that just makes the problem worse.

Absolutely retarded. Aside from ignoring substantial evidence previously presented you also try to claim transition is not effective. Sure does suck to be wrong huh? :^) this is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of quality of life/mental/physical health research before, during, and after transition. Transitioning has a higher success rate as a treatment than MANY other common treatments for various illnesses.

http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/trgh.2015.0008
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27235282
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27117528
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27117529
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26237928
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26486135
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25401972
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23943260
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25401972
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jsm.12155/abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24177489
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2011.02564.x/abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21937168
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21699661
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0030043/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16758113

>>6942213

>Heylans et al., 2014: "A difference in SCL-90 [a test of distress, anxiety, and hostility] overall psychoneurotic distress was observed at the different points of assessments (P = 0.003), with the most prominent decrease occurring after the initiation of hormone therapy (P < 0.001)...Furthermore, the SCL-90 scores resembled those of a general population after hormone therapy was started."

>Colizzi et al., 2013: "At enrollment, transsexuals reported elevated CAR ['cortisol awakening response', a physiological measure of stress]; their values were out of normal. They expressed higher perceived stress and more attachment insecurity, with respect to normative sample data. When treated with hormone therapy [at followup, 1 year after beginning HRT], transsexuals reported significantly lower CAR (P < 0.001), falling within the normal range for cortisol levels. Treated trans showed also lower perceived stress (P < 0.001), with levels similar to normative samples."

>Gomez-Gil et al., 2012: "SADS, HAD-A, and HAD-Depression (HAD-D) mean scores were significantly higher among patients who had not begun cross-sex hormonal treatment compared with patients in hormonal treatment (F=4.362, p=.038; F=14.589, p=.001; F=9.523, p=.002 respectively). Similarly, current symptoms of anxiety and depression were present in a significantly higher percentage of untreated patients than in treated patients (61% vs. 33% and 31% vs. 8% respectively)."

>de Vries, et al., 2014 studied 55 trans teens from the onset of treatment in their early teenage years through a follow-up an average of 7 years later. They found no negative outcomes, no regrets, and in fact their group was slightly mentally healthier than controls.

>Lawrence, 2003 surveyed post-op trans folk: "Participants reported overwhelmingly that they were happy with their SRS results and that SRS had greatly improved the quality of their lives. None reported outright regret and only a few expressed even occasional regret."

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>>6942199
>>6942201
>>6942205
>>6942208
>>6942213
>>6942216

So as you can see, there is actually a tremendous amount of evidence that supports the idea of a brain sex.

Further, your claims that transition is not effective based solely on -suicide attempt rate-, which you tried to pass off as suicide rate, is utterly false.

Sorry but the reality is GID is a real neurological form of intersexuality and transition is a very successful form of treatment. I know this triggers you but it's the truth.

>>6942145
>I'm talking about the society I live in where half of the population is female.
The point of the analogy was to compare the similarities to transgender to transspecies since thats the easiest one. But the conversation only got there because the first post brought it up. Im made this thread hoping to talk more about the idea of gender itself so this is good for getting back on track.
>What's more important to me is that people I care about consider me to be a woman.
What exactly does being a woman mean to you. Why exactly do you feel that gender exist?

>>6942223
Not OP but thank you. I tried to explain it from the feelings side of things in this thread but I didn't feel like I was getting through to OP. At first I thought you were spamming but then I realised what you were doing. Perhaps the scientific evidence you provided will help OP understand :)
And if he ignores it then he was clearly trolling.

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>>6942223
>implying OP will reply to you
>implying OP isn't laughing his fat cheetos-stained face off from being le epic baitmaster
>implying OP will not open a similar thread tomorrow or the day after

>>6942223
Lol not about to read the passages you posted. If you cant be bothered to read them neither can I. Please make your point and cite evidence as you go along.There are many sources that claim that the differences are developed during childhood or later and many that disregard these studies. You can biased search for agreeing facts. Please present your argument in an organized manner.

>>6942255
I have read them all you fucking troll. You can't claim to want to know the truth then completely ignore it when it's presented to you.

That's what makes you a -troll-.

>>6942252
Good point, notice how first OP completely ignored me with their reply till you said something.

>>6942239
Feelings don't matter. Facts do.

>>6942238
Way to dodge me, faggot.
>The point of the analogy was to compare the similarities to transgender to transspecies since thats the easiest on
No. It's nothing even remotely similar.

There has never been a single reported case of inter-speciality in human beings. There are dozens of types of intersex disorders for human beings which occur at an average rate of 1/200. You are so naive and narcissitic that you think the most complex organ in the entire body (the brain) is not also capable of experience intersexual characteristics despite piles of evidence illustrating that it does.

Kill yourself.

>>6942255
>i am not going to read your sources
good job, kid 3/10
got my blood boiling alright

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>>6942255
0/10 bait

stop replying people

sage

>>6942213
>Chinese transgender women low levels of mental QOL. Their mental QOL was more pronounced than their physical QOL
What exactly were you hoping to show with these studies. They are reconfirming what Ive been saying.

>>6942260
I dont actually think youve read them all. But Im going through them. I replied to your post after I replied to the other post responding to me. Try to take time stamps into consideration. There are also only 11 posters in this thread so pls keep the samefagging to a minimum.

>>6942260
Of course he will do that. Either stall or just throw your evidence out of the window over irrelevant minor discrepancy he'll crucify you for like an experienced snake he is.

"hurr you haven't presented le argument in an form I find acceptable, Mr. Bond, you aren't worth my time lol"

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>>6942269
WOW. Way to gloss over the results :^)

>Transgender women who used hormone therapy reported significantly lower levels of the physical component summary (PCS) and the mental component summary (MCS) compared with those who did not (P < .05). Hierarchical multiple regression analysis showed that of the 23 independent variables, 8 were significantly associated with the PCS and 9 were significantly associated with the MCS. The PCS was significantly and negatively associated with age and being chased or insulted by law enforcement officials. The PCS was positively associated with not using hormone therapy, having no casual partners, less discrimination from friends, knowledge of HIV prevention, hope, and resilience. Educational level and being chased or insulted by law enforcement officials were negatively associated with the MCS, whereas not using hormone therapy, having no regular partners or casual partners, less discrimination from friends, less social discrimination, knowledge of HIV prevention, and hope were positively associated with the MCS.

>>6942280
You still ignored the lower levels of mental quality of life. Which validates my statement.
Also what exactly are you hoping to accomplish with that post. You arent saying. Pls organize your argument

>>6942213
Man you actually didnt read what you posted.
>MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES:
Sexual QoL, negative feelings, hormonal treatment, partner relationship, personality.
RESULTS:
The mean score of the sexual facet was 10.01 (standard deviation=4.09). More than 50% of patients rated their sexual life as "poor/dissatisfied" or "very poor/very dissatisfied,"

What Im reading is literally reaffirming what Ive said and since you only posted these sources was your intention to also reaffirm what Im saying.

>>6942275

This is data and research I have collected and analyzed over the course of a year. I have even used inter-library-loan to get graduate documents that aren't in digital libraries. This is a fraction of the material I have collected.

Just because you don't read and look for the truth doesn't mean we are all like you. If research showed transition was not a good treatment, that's what I'd say. Unfortunately for your claims, absolutely no research has ever showed transition is a low efficacy treatment.

>>6942294
>This is data and research I have collected and analyzed over the course of a year.
My main criticism is youve shown 0 capacity to analyze these documents into a coherent argument. Much of what it says reaffirms what Im saying.
>Unfortunately for your claims, absolutely no research has ever showed transition is a low efficacy treatment.
Accept they are confirming my claims. The studies you posted overall only show say that there is minimum improvement and that in general transgenders live miserable lives.

>>6942302
Should add this is the claim I made about it being a "patch" and not a real treatment.

>>6942238
>What exactly does being a woman mean to you.
I may not have made it clear but I'm actually not trying to be a woman in the sense of having an idea of what a woman is and trying to be like that.
Instead as I live my life and experience things, I feel things.
Like, I think long hair is pretty and elegant and I feel joyful when people call me those things. So that's why I've always wanted long, silky hair ever since I was a kid.
A few years ago when I was shopping for clothes I was feeling disappointed again by how dull the designs of the clothes in the men's section were, and since I was young I had wanted to try on girly clothing because it looks so nice. I mustered up some courage and went in the woman's section and bought some feminine stuff like cardigans and tight jeans that weren't explicitly female clothing but definitely feminine. I ignored the people I could hear mocking me from the shadows because I liked wearing them so much. I even wore them to school and within a single day people grew used to it and stopped talking about it and nobody had even directly confronted me about it (I wasn't strictly crossdressing after all, just dressing androgynously but on the feminine side) I grew more confident and developed a fashion sense and started wearing them more elegantly over time.
When it comes to music I've always liked vocals sung by female singers so when doing karaoke I always tried to sing those songs too at the same pitch.
I'm running out of characters but basically even with sexual acts I instinctively take on feminine roles.
So my point is, when I am true to myself I end up being feminine, and that's what I think having a female gender is like.
>Why exactly do you feel that gender exist?
I can't think of another way to explain my feelings. If think if gender didn't exist then I wouldn't have those feelings and instincts I mentioned before.

>>6942213
>The quality of sexual life scored statistically lower in transmen than intranswomen (P = 0.048)
The more I read the more it reaffirms what Im saying. But this isnt what I came here for. The info you posted has no direction and I dont see the points you are trying to make. Please organize your argument so that there can be a discussion about it.

>>6942207
>http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/06/16/us/hate-crimes-against-lgbt.html?_r=0

>>6942260
You're right that it's facts that matter but humans have limited ways of identifying facts. Often, feelings can be explained by facts about how the brain works, even if those facts are not yet known (although in this case they apparently are; according to that neurological sex thing). So there can definitely be truth to feelings.

>>6942317
go organize dicks into your boypucci lmao

>>6942327
So am I to take it that you dont actually have an argument. The sources you made were informative for re affirming what I was saying but I dont believe that was your point.

>>6942309
Wanting to wear beautiful clothes that are only available in the women's section, liking songs sung by women or taking a submissive role whatever that means still doesn't make you a woman, you know. :^)

Also if you really were a woman you wouldn't use terms like "crossdressing" when wearing women's clothes because women wearing women's clothes is not crossdressing, buddy. ::^^)

>>6942323
that just means the person you responded to doesn't live in a shithole like america
i doubt there are hate crimes in the netherlands or sweden for example

>>6942331
what the fok did you say about me m8?
1v1 me nerd, i fokin bash ye head in i sware on me mum

>>6942334
I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to OP. I'm sorry to say this but you're more autistic than OP. At least OP is able of intelligent thought and able to understand things that aren't in plain sight.

>>6942309
>I may not have made it clear but I'm actually not trying to be a woman in the sense of having an idea of what a woman is and trying to be like that.
Im having a hard time understanding this. You wish to be something you dont understand? The comment sounds like you wish to be lumped in with them. However I dont see this as different than rachel dolezal wanting to be black.
Id also like to point out that what you described is that you enjoy feminine things. Which is fine and all, but it seems you are trying to take it a step further which I dont quite get.

>>6942331
I literally don't understand in any way how those sources validate or confirm what you said at ALL.

Every single one of them illustrates significant improvement in patients after beginning their transition. Further, several of those papers show that when normalizing risk factors (family support, discrimination, housing, etc) against the average cis-population, transpeople fall in line close to the standard deviation. I.E. transpeople that get to live in acceptance like every cis person does are just as healthy as the average cis person.

Your utter lack of reading comprehension and effort can only be explained by the fact you are a troll.

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this thread is now an ebic meme thread

ebin :DDDD

>>6942340
Yeah you just got outed as the crossdressing AGP you really are. No need to get feisty, sir.

>>6942343
I guess I should clarify this point. What you like is what you like. I dont think theres any reason for that to be tied to a sex. While people will find you weird theres nothing crazy about liking long hair, tight clothing, etc. While this is more extreme than many cases, I find societal pressures to adhere to being masculine or feminine to be ridiculous at times. Like how men are expected to never cry. So I dont find the description of you to be too weird. However I do find this to be insufficient to recognize a concept like gender. I also feel like this only makes the certain societal pressures worse. Like it reaffirms that men who like long hair are women. By doing this I also believe it makes people have a hard time accepting who they are and desire to be something else.

>>6942347
>Your utter lack of reading comprehension
I believe his reading comprehension is very fine, he just pretends it's not. But that's the purpose of this thread, isn't it?

>>6942347
>Every single one of them illustrates significant improvement in patients after beginning their transition.
Many of the sources you posted say the opposite and how they are lower. Ive gone through most of the abstracts and conclusions to the post with the sources. The random passages have no direction so I didnt take them into consideration.

>>6942347
>I literally don't understand in any way how those sources validate or confirm what you said at ALL.
>>The quality of sexual life scored statistically lower in transmen than intranswomen (P = 0.048)
>Sexual QoL, negative feelings, hormonal treatment, partner relationship, personality.
RESULTS:
The mean score of the sexual facet was 10.01 (standard deviation=4.09). More than 50% of patients rated their sexual life as "poor/dissatisfied" or "very poor/very dissatisfied,"
etc in case you didnt see those for some reason

Im starting to read the actual papers and graphs now but again, they are reaffirming what Im saying.

>>6942343
I understand that it can be hard to understand. I too have struggled in the past. And no I am not trying to say that I am trying to become something I don't understand.

I'm trying to be true to myself instead of psychologically killing who I am just to fit in. What I tried to illustrate, is that this *somehow* entails something that *seems* like I'm trying to be a woman. This is an observation.

As for the cause, there is likely something wrong with my brain that's been wrong since I was born. This may be that neurological sex people are talking about, something else, I don't know; in the end regardless of whether or not it's there, it's responsible for me being this way, that is, transgender.

I'm really struggling to explain this any clearer. I don't have proof but with everything I've gone through it just makes so much sense for it to be that way.

What I'm trying to say is that some defect has made my subconscious believe, with 100% certainty, hard-wired, that I am a woman. I don't know what caused the defect but after thousands of hours of thinking about it this is the most logical explanation I can think of. No matter how much logic I try to use to convince it I'm not a woman and can never be, it just thinks it's nonsense and impossible; just like I think it's impossible for me, a male, to be female, my subconscious thinks it is impossible for me, a female, to be a male. The examples where I naturally tend towards behaving femininely and liking feminine things were merely an attempt to illustrate the effects this defect had shown. I'm sure there are more examples but these are the most obvious and straight-forward.

>>6942361
If you think propensity for wearing girl clothes, singing girl tunes and being fucked doggystyle actually makes you a woman and not a delusional sick man who fetishizes womanhood then you have some self-reflection to do. Fuck off from this thread, fetishistic straight man, you will never be a real transsexual who has the hypothalamus configuration of the opposite sex.

t. actual real transsexual and not an imposter like (You)

>>6942396
*instead of "regardless of whether or not it's there" I mean more something like "regardless of what exactly it is on a neurological or scientific level"

>>6942401
If you keep this up people really WILL think transgender people can't partake in philosophy and delusional. You have given no explanation of what makes you a real transsexual. I'm fairly sure you haven't even thought about it and questioned and take pride in your confidence about your conviction that you are a woman.
Just believing in something as hard as you can won't make it true, though. But I do agree that it's easier not to overthink it.

The Bible says...

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

...I'd say that there is the flesh of this world and that which exists which is not of this world

>>6942436
*are delusional

>>6942436
My SDN size is in the range of females which gives me pretty solid evidence I am a female. Where is your God now, baitboi?

>>6942453
...
I don't know what an SDN is, but
I bet I pass better than you, hon.

>>6942436
Sorry, if I may interdict, I must ask if a person identifies with the opposite gender, and it is not hurting anybody, why does this imply that they should not continue to identify with the opposite gender and take up to the best of their abilities adopting the way of life of the opposite gender?

>>6942477
Too bad you don't, lmao.

>>6942481
A trans person can never actually be that opposite gender because of the physics of time and that their flesh of this world is already gendered... But they can still be MTF or FTM (in this world, at least, seeing as we are constrained by physics)

>>6942481
That's not what I meant, but never mind. People I didn't mean to talk to are taking my words out of context just to poke fun at me so I was just trying to retaliate, but in hindsight I shouldn't have taken the bait.
I'm just here to philosophise along with OP and give my two cents.

>>6942499
However, spiritually, or in their minds, or in portions of their genetic/neurological composition, they may be the exact same thing as the opposite gender

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>>6941736
You're absolutely right, we should just keep starting calling people "person with its 23rd chromosome being XX/XY" instead.

>>6942481
>if a person identifies with the opposite gender, and it is not hurting anybody
Do they require other people to identify them by that gender. If so you could say that is a form of harming them.

>>6942501
>"If you keep this up people really WILL think transgender people can't partake in philosophy and delusional. You have given no explanation of what makes you a real transsexual. I'm fairly sure you haven't even thought about it and questioned and take pride in your confidence about your conviction that you are a woman.
Just believing in something as hard as you can won't make it true, though."

Okay... Just giving my response to this, anon.

>>6942481
There is a BIG difference between IDENTIFYING actually BEING the opposite gender you bumbling retard.

>>6942522
I agree, but all things considered, if you do not treat them as a woman or a man and they are asking this of you then you are the one harming them a also (they know who they truly are probably better than others know them, of course)

>>6942524
Sorry for lashing out at you as well, I'm really pissed off by whatever shitposter was taking it out on me.
To answer your question, note what I said after it: "But I do agree that it's easier not to overthink it."
By that I meant that actually it's fine for someone to identify with the opposite gender if they don't hurt anyone with it and can just be the way they are.
With the stuff I said before that, which you quoted, I only meant to say that this kind of reasoning isn't welcome in a philosophical discussion, even though it's completely fine with me in society.

>>6942531
I'd say within a reasonable limit if they truly believe they are the opposite gender than that is truly what they are in reality, minus the flesh and aesthetics...

"I think, therefore I am"

>>6941736
Fuck off, feminist. Gender isn't a social construct, it has been proven that men and women have different brains. You ideology is objectively wrong.

>>6942517
Or we could do what we've always done and use he for males and she for females. Why exactly is this a problem?

This is one of the shittiest threads I've seen. Can't believe this troll managed to get this to go on so long.

>>6942539
>reasoning

... Why not? Have you ever heard "I think, therefore I am"?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum

This is sound and completely legitimate "philosophy" by Descartes himself

>>6942546
But is there also not men with female-ish neurology and women with male-ish neurology?

>>6942556
That's not what it means. It means that because you think, there must exist an entity that thinks. It does not mean that you are whatever you think you are; only that are something that engages in the act of thinking.

>>6942547
so OP won't throw a tantrum

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"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

>>6942534
> if you do not treat them as a woman or a man and they are asking this of you then you are the one harming
Id argue the opposite

>>6942570
No you are wrong. Decartes argued that you could prove your own existence to yourself with this. You obviously identify as the object thinking. If you were not the object thinking you would not know that there was thinking.

>>6942575
That's your judgment and perception. Should we not bare eachothers' burdens for a better society?

>>6942575
I say, put something into practice and see how it goes

>>6942585
Id argue I am making society better

>>6942584
No I am not wrong by quoting Descartes in this conversation

Is this post a shill-post intended to derail the Descartes post? Forgive me for the accusation... I don't understand what you're saying in this post

>>6942575
i'd argue we need to line up little cheeky bigoted shits like you and drop you in the atlantic ocean to ensure the bigoted gene doesn't spread to the next generation

t. radical tranny guerrilla group member

>>6942593
Then that's just your perception and judgment, exerting your will upon them

>>6942599
Ive written to many papers on foundationalism to have the debate. You are wrong.

>>6942602
Is this also a shill posting to discredit transgendered people and make them look bad in this conversation?

>>6942609
Okay please explain why I am wrong, I am certainly open to correction

>>6942612
yes, i was just awarded 5 euros for that post by the nazi world domination alliance

>>6942619
Im not about to pull out my old text books. But really I dont see why we are even talking about this when you have no idea what you are saying. This is ripped straight from wiki but his self reflection is a classic case of how on cannot deny his own existence
>Accordingly, seeing that our senses sometimes deceive us, I was willing to suppose that there existed nothing really such as they presented to us; And because some men err in reasoning, and fall into Paralogisms, even on the simplest matters of Geometry, I, convinced that I was as open to error as any other, rejected as false all the reasonings I had hitherto taken for Demonstrations; And finally, when I considered that the very same thoughts (presentations) which we experience when awake may also be experienced when we are asleep, while there is at that time not one of them true, I supposed that all the objects (presentations) that had ever entered into my mind when awake, had in them no more truth than the illusions of my dreams. But immediately upon this I observed that, whilst I thus wished to think that all was false, it was absolutely necessary that I, who thus thought, should be something; And as I observed that this truth, I think, therefore I am

>>6941736
Gender exists, not only as social construct.
There are significantt differences between 'male' and 'female' brain.

Trans woman wants to be a real woman - not 'xe' or 'zhe' or whatever. She wants to belong to women's club, she wants to do what cis women do. Trans woman is a WOMAN, not agender creature. Even if whole society accepted her as woman with dick, she would like to have vagina instead.

There are many sexual orientations, but only two genders: female and male.
Cis men are men. Trans men are men. Cis women are women, trans women are women. Because gender is inside your brain, not in your pants. You can't get rid of it, even if you ban using pronouns, even if you ban separate toilets or male/female fashion, even if you try forcing your bullshit theory in every school in the world, gender won't disappear. It's in your genes. And there is literally nothing wrong with it.

People should be more supportive and understanding for trans individuals - this should be your our goal, not getting rid of gender concept.

>>6942670
Okay, good point, I will read this

(I consider myself mtf, and I definitely think if I am not hurting a anybody then that is what God intended me to be, to be female to the best of my ability so I am coming from the perception that it would be silly to look at myself any other way)

>>6942687
>There are significantt differences between 'male' and 'female' brain.
Nothing significant actually. And furthermore these differences dont show at a young age.

>>6942571
This is unfair judgment and inaccurate description of their behaviour

>>6942696
Check the MTFG threads to see contradicting 'science'

>>6942687
Ty for unnecessarily bringing up the bathroom controversy which is not necessary for trans people to function in society.... Everybody should have their privacy and a clean bathroom in a perfect world, Amirite?

>>6942723
did you read my post?

>>6942670
So then what would cause a woman to feel like a man or a man to feel like a woman if they did not already exist in that state if being (in the presence of God)..... I have felt that I should be a girl since I came out of my mother's womb (myself being born with a penis rather than a vagina, biologically)

>>6942772
Which one in regards to this post

>>6942792
You have no concept of gender at a young age. There are many studies that confirm this. It is given to you.

>>6942792
I posit that it is because our 'being' is something separate from our 'flesh'... I am also a believer in the spiritual realm of the Christian/Abrahamic 'heaven'

>>6942795
Sorry, when I was as young as I can possibly remember I felt I should be a girl and even had a dream where I was running in a dress at a later time in my early childhood

>>6942795
Link studies pl0x if true

>>6942795
In good humor, to put it quite frankly:

nigga you must be out yo f*ckin' mind tryna being this sh*t up in here

>>6942817
Do you realize this is what I just said.
>>6942834
>Developmental researchers have identified that rudimentary stereotypes develop by about two years of age (Kuhn et al. 1978), and many children develop basic stereotypes by age three (Signorella et al. 1993). Children first show an understanding of sex differences associated with adult possessions (e.g., shirt and tie), physical appearance, roles, toys, and activities, and recognize some abstract associations with gender (e.g., hardness as male; softness as female) (Leinbach et al. 1997, Weinraub et al. 1984). Children develop stereotypes about physical aggression at an early age
I cant find the exact study of where kids were raised while isolated from references to gender because Im on my phone but if this thread is still here Ill find it later. But there are many many studies that show kids

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"While other knowledge could be a figment of imagination, deception, or mistake, Descartes asserted that the very act of doubting one's own existence served—at minimum—as proof of the reality of one's own mind; there must be a thinking entity—in this case the self—for there to be a thought."

>>6942886
Okay, ty anon, God bless you...

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>>6941736
I saw this topic pop up last night, and decided it would be best to go to sleep, because it would be pointless to respond. OP you've basically stated in your first post, 'I've already made up my mind'. You're not looking for discourse. Unfortunately you gave the illusion of wanting to hear about the other side, which has given you an ample number of people to troll as a result.

Pulling an image from back when this board was first created, as your kind are all too similar.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d9KKqP9IHa5ZxU84a_Jf0vIoAh7e8nj_lCW27KbYBh0/htmlview#

>>6942890
Whats the point of the statement

>>6942910
OP here. I didnt make this thread about transgender. You guys did. I was very clear in the OP about why this thread was made.

>>6942890
its already been posted here>>6942670

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>>6942947

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Here is Immanuel Kant on Descartes...

http://philosophy.fas.nyu.edu/docs/IO/2575/longuenesse1.pdf

"(The principle of the necessary unity of apperception) It must be the case that each of my representations is such that I can attribute it to my self, a subject which is the same for all of my self-attributions, which is distinct from its representations, and which can be conscious of its representations (A116, B131–2, B134–5)."

"It must be possible for the ‘I think’ to accompany all my representations; for otherwise something would be represented in me which could not be thought at all, and that is equivalent to saying that the representation would be impossible, or at least would be nothing to me. (B131–32)"

>>6942936
"I think, therefore I am."

That there is a concrete reason that trans-persons identify with the opposite gender.

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...here is Jesus on gender in Heaven:

' 23On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Jesus and questioned Him, 24asking, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘IF A MAN DIES HAVING NO CHILDREN, HIS BROTHER AS NEXT OF KIN SHALL MARRY HIS WIFE, AND RAISE UP CHILDREN FOR HIS BROTHER.’ 25“Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother; 26so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh. 27“Last of all, the woman died. 28“In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had married her.”

29But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30“For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31“But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: 32‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” 33When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.'

>>6942992
Are you serious. Thats kinda embarrassing to desu.
>I think therefore I am
Has nothing to do with any form of identification and recognizes that you can be wrong about the form you think things are in. Its in responsible to an epistemological argument that everything you believe is false or can be false. Its famous because its one of the few truths in the world. Foundationalism only works for objective facts. Aka math and really really fundamental irrevocable concepts. Like there are no two horned unicorns. Because a unicorn is defined to have 1 horn.
He freely admits that his perception is fallible. You are shooting yourself in the foot there. Please stop. Its too cringe worthy.

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Jesus on eunuchs...

'10The disciples said to Him, “If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry.” 11But He said to them, “Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. 12“For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.”'

This is honestly such a terrible thread. OP is a narcissistic troll that thinks he knows better than thousands of researchers across the world and millions of transgender people's first hand experience across the world and through history.

Also ops claim that gender is taught is bullshit. This has been proven false by the experiment on David Reimer and the catastrophe of Walter Heyer.

Yes the cultural trends of gender will be learned by children but gender identity is a deep profound feeling articulated by our lizard brain (limbic system and hypothalamus) to instinctually understand and expect things from our body. Interesting how their is significant differences in transgender brains from their birth sex in the areas and activation of the limbic and hypothalamic systems.

People are totally willing to accept incredible ply confusing displays of animal instinct (weird migration patterns, complex displays of behavior not learned, and swarm dynamics but as soon as we say the most complex organ in the entire body has a biologically hard wired expectation of its body then suddenly it's just too much.

Fucking lel. Kys

>>6943018
You are wrong in saying that I am "shooting myself in the foot."

>Its in responsible to an epistemological argument that everything you believe is false or can be false.

^ this does not sum up what Descartes is saying.

...also, riddle me this, because it is relevant to our conversation:

What is truth? What does it mean to be 'objective', if we are citing man's philosophy?

Mathematics are concepts only existing in our minds, and are not ontological existing realities before us sharing the earth.

What Descartes is saying is relevant to being a trans-person because it has to do with identifying and confessing that something exists ontologically.

Why would a trans-person be a functional member of society if being transgendered was all one personal delusion?

>>6943052
>^ this does not sum up what Descartes is saying.
It literally does. Descartes is the like the father against skepticism. Im not about to explain everything, but he arguments are literally absolute things. Hence FOUNDATIONALISM.

>What does it mean to be 'objective', if we are citing man's philosophy?
Im not about to get into epistemology for this conversation so lets use Descartes definition. Irrevocably true. Wow. That was easy. Its almost like Ive studied him before (because I did).
>Mathematics are concepts only existing in our minds
No, mathematics is the abstraction of fundamental ideas. Induction, inferences, basic axioms.
>What Descartes is saying is relevant to being a trans-person because it has to do with identifying and confessing that something exists ontologically.
Yes, except he is literally saying that He exist and everything else can be wrong. Its too embarrassing that you are trying to extend something this fundamental. Im literally cringing.
>Why would a trans-person be a functional member of society if being transgendered was all one personal delusion?
Is this a joke about how transgenders cant use logic?

>>6943039
Also when presented with facts he offhandedly dismisses them without citing a reason. He's the conversational equivalent of that kid in a game of cops and robbers who says "you missed!" every time another kid gets a nerd dart on him.

>>6943100
Nerf not nerd

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>>6943095
Alright, you sound a bit young... That's okay. Let's all try to be coherent in our explanations and grammar pls...

I wouldn't call Descartes the father against skepticism, especially given who the man actually was I'm his time. Foundationalism does necessarily have anything explicit to say in condemnation of transgendered persons being the opposite gender of their birth. The"foundation" of the trans-person's plea for existence as the opposite sex is the fact that they exist in the first place. Thus Descartes is relevant here in the conversation about trans-identity desu.

Trans-identity is literal and absolute desu.

I say that based on my subjective experience as a living person trans-identity is irrevocably true, with the exception of there being an existential scenario where no truths about the worldly universe of matter or the universe of human logic existing ontologically or at least existing in a logical 'traceable' foundationalist hierarchy of understanding.

(I.e... Trans-identity could be completely false if the universe is a computer simulation or something like that, or if it just turns out that trans-identity is only a delusion based on a defunct neurological composition, or if it is simply a by-product of sin or some sort persuasion of the devil. Then obviously in this later scenario trans-identity would be completely inappropriate to good reason or perhaps just a by-product of sexual lust or fetish or something along these lines.)

On the subject of mathematics... Yes, everything that you said resounds that mathematics are concepts existing in our mind. Truth can be questioned, no matter how 'foundational' our perception of it appears to be.

I think that I am interpreting Descartes correctly. You also may be interpreting what he's saying correctly. I see that you are saying that Descartes is saying: "I exist, and everything else can be wrong". (...to be continued in the next post.)

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>>6943095
am interpreting him to be saying a more conventional interpretation of "I am a thinking entity, therefore I exist." In this case, it is, "I think that I am female aside from my biology, therefore I am female thinking entity, and therefore, I, the female thinking entity, exist as a female thinking entity in male biology (the ghost in the shell, if you will), and therefore transgenderism is an ontological state of being as far as we can define, and it is not a delusion."

>>6943095
>>6943311
>>6943320
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_machine

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Just gonna... leave this here...

>>6941838
>tfw your name is Patrick
>tfw you prefer people to call you Pat because even though it sounds like shit it's gender neutral

>>6943311
>I wouldn't call Descartes the father against skepticism, especially given who the man actually was I'm his time
He is. You just have never studied philosophers before. And you are incorrectly applying their ideas and it hurts to much to read. But Im not about to bother with it.
>>6943320
>I am a thinking entity, therefore I exist
Yes. Because what he said is, I am thinking, therefore there must be an entity thinking, therefore I exist.
>I think that I am female aside from my biology
This is just bad. Please stop.

To get it out of the way, I identify as gender artist and would argue that gender identification is broken because of the societal and historical baggage that goes with it.

That said, trying to rephrase one of the foundational statements of classic and modern philosophy in a way that supports an argument it has absolutely no bearing on is ridiculous.

This is comparable to the many religious texts selectively re-interpreted to support the persecution of groups like the LGBT community. Don't shove yourself into that same falsely justified group for the sake of a stupid Internet argument.

>>6941736
>I would like to discuss how gender isnt a thing and shouldnt exist
triggers me as I identify as a cis-male.

I could give you 40 page ramble on the topics gender and sex. Instead, I shorten this and say:

There are more than two genders. But these type of genders (male and female) shouldn't be abandoned. you can be intersexual, transgender, nonbinary, genderfluid, male, female and all the other things I forgot about. How's that?

>>6942199
>Yokota, Y. et al “Callosal Shapes at the Midsagittal Plane: MRI Differences of Normal Males, Normal Females, and GID”
did not describe whether the MTFs were on hormones or not, which is a big flaw

>Gooren "The biology of human psychosexual differentiation."
doesn't provide evidence of a "cross-gender" brain

>>6942201
>Garcia-Falgueras "A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity."
mischaracterizes transgenderism
>Transsexuality is an individual’s unshakable conviction of belonging to the opposite sex, resulting in a request for
sex-reassignment surgery.

and also fails to rule out hormonal profile as the cause of the differentiation. that is, mtf values were closer to those of female, but castrated cis male values were also intermediary. additionally, the mtfs began hormone treatment (which would also include estrogen) much earlier than the males received castration.


>Luders "Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism."
good study. interesting passage:
>Yet, the genera-lization of these findings is limited by the inherent pitfalls of post mortem studies, the relatively small number of MTF transsexuals examined (n1=6;n2=6;n3=11), as well as the subjects' long-term treatment with estrogen. Granted, some argue that estrogen treatment does not alter certain brain structures (Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab, 2008). Nevertheless, other studies have shown that treatment with anti-androgen and estrogen decreases brain volumes of MTF transsexuals subjects towards female proportions (Hulshoff Pol et al.,2006).
however it recognizes a difference only in one region (in Berglund above), and this region is different than that in both cis males and cis females

>Rametti "White matter microstructure in female to male transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A diffusion tensor imaging study."
indicates that FTM white matter microstructure is mainly intersexed, leaning toward cis male

>>6942205
>Zubiaurre “Cortical Thickness in Untreated Transsexuals”
>On a graph, transpeople statistically fell in the middle between the XX and XY karyotypes.

so really, it's not accurate to say that a mtf "has a female brain," but rather that transgender people have an intersex condition of several brain regions, and perhaps others.

i'm also realizing i'm posting this in the wrong thread

Fags.