mtfs regularly withhold transition due to (perceived or actual)

>>6873978
It's much easier for a FTM to pass than it is for a MTF...

>>6873978
funny my body looks like this except my nipples are enormous and i have no facial hair

is this what you call curvy and small? what??? i look huge to myself and i hate my wider than hips shoulders

>>6873978
hint: they're not really trans

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They usually end up like this

More wide and box-like than curvy.

Unless they have really shitty genetics. OP photo looks like he's not very far along in his transition and needs to get rid of excess weight

>>6874080
You need to lose weight then. Even the curviest of women don't have hip bones wider than their shoulders unless they roll their shoulders back. Lose all your excess weight then regain it as upper body muscle mass and bingo you're solved.

>>6874139
>>6874080
Err I may have read you're post backwards, if so then scratch what I said

>>6874015
This. T is a hell of a drug and it's why the majority of MtFs that went through puberty cannot pass 100%. Also men don't recieve the same level of scrutiny on their bodies that cis and trans women do.

>>6874147
yeah, i forgot to mention that i am mtf btw

>>6874108

Which ones?

>>6874250
the "mtfs" you describe

it's just agpers making excuses, "oh, i'll never be the pretty little girl, why bother"

someone who is actually trans can repress due to outside factors, but never because "i won't be my fetishized version of what an ideal woman is"

a real woman couldn't bear to live as anything other than a woman, that's why they transition, to survive, not live out some depraved fantasy of being a super hot chick

don't be fooled by bitter beta males who obsess over unattainably hot girls and think they must live the pinnacles of existence and be waited on hand and foot

>>6873978
it's a lot easier to hide with clothing, and also by building a normal amount of muscle

>>6873978
Its actually easier to gain muscle mass in the shoulders than it is to do so in the hips. And filling in a curvy waist with exersice is not *that* hard. Plus the addition of T makes gaining said muscle way easier.
As far as facial features go, feminine traits with a bit of T added in are seen as youthful/boyish/cute. On the other hand masculine features are typically seen as 'ugly'/ unattractive on women.
Testosterone seriously fucks up our shit while estrogen typically leaves trans guys more neutral. Besides feminine bone structure(which again, is easier to make look masculine) its crazy how little estrogen actually does, that's why mtfa are alway complaining about a lack of results. T gives you so many masculine traits that its insanely easy to pass in ~6 months with virtually 0 effort.
But therin lies the problem, trans guys complain that there is no voice training method and other stuff. They put in 0 effort and expect T to do everything fpr them, with just a little effort on their part they can be a 100% passing male and also probably attractive.

>>6874405
You don't know what AGP is. Autogynephiles can and frequently do experience dysphoria just like the other kind of transsexuals. The hint is in the name: Blanchard's TRANSSEXUALISM typology.

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>>6874511
you can't just casually hide having a female skeleton

>>6874526
>other kind of transsexuals

you disgust me

>>6874511
wide hips are hard to hide in a suit, unless you have really strong shoulders that compensate.

>>6874163
It also has a lot to do with social roles though

It's easier to present male than to present female

>>6874727
How so? That's what the theory from which the term is taken is meant to portray: a taxonomy of various types of transsexuals.

>>6874829
This too. And also, if transitioning doesn't work out at all it is MUCH easier to be perceived as a butch woman by people than as a disgusting failed crossdresser man with tits.

>>6874405
You aren't "living as a woman" if everyone sees a man. It's not about being beautiful.

>>6874878
have you ever actually seen an ftmtf detransitioner
they look awful and their tendencies to present as really butch lesbians just make it worse
between increasing ftm visibility and increasing ftm detransition the 'trans men are barely distinguishable from cis' meme will die the most painful of deaths

>>6874405

These AGPs are going to be different from cis women and HSTS because of longterm testosterone exposure and living as a male. They also get punished socially for being visibly trans. So AGP "beta males" with masc features tend to stay in the closet.

>>6874527
If they lowered their body fat percentage they'd be fine.

Sometimes ftms with feminine fat distribution need to be underweight in order to pass.

>>6874881
>>6875036

if someone who is maab is really a woman and not agp, she'll transition anyways as much as possible, years of HRT, FFS, GRS, and body surgeries and just live as a mannish Helga type, dye their hair blonde and put it in donut sidebuns and wear a dirndl and embrace the closest female stereotype that matches their features

if they would go through all that if they could but can't due to lack of funds or an oppressive environment then like i said that's perfectly understandable

Grace Jones was a sex symbol because of her exotic masculine features

>>6874527
yes u can lol, its called a beard

>>6874527
are you talking about the second person from the left? because yeah they've got a small build but they definitely look male to me

>>6874405
>be HSTS with fetish for tricking straight men into having sex with me
>have fetish for raping a drunk Chad
>will never pass
I am a 6'4 narrow-hipped hulk.

>>6876895
Please me how transitioning as a 6'4 fat behemoth will get straight men after me.

>>6876971

Best you can hope for is some AGP dick, hon.

>AGP and HSTS bff 4evah

>>6877020
If she was a cute, big dicked femboy, why the fuck now.

well the thing is on T you can bulk up with muscle. So you can compensate a bit for narrow shoulders and stuff.

As a mtf you can't do anything against wide shoulder bones except maybe for hip implants to balance it out.

Its easier to make a frame bigger than smaller. I mean there is even this technique in Japan where they stretch legs...

>>6879122
you can bulk up, but you will always have a female skeleton
absolute best case scenario is that you're structured more like a prepubescent boy than a woman
adding muscle to a small, short, curvy female body doesn't make it look like a male one standing next to a cis guy

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>>6874405
forgot my pic

>>6879132
Sh-shut up

>>6874405
>agp vs. trutrans (that's what you're actually saying)
>agplers want to be some kind of fetishized version of a woman
>trutrans people just are girls inside male bodies

I started transition at 24 and had a rough life, very conservative family and what not. And I've not heard of transsexuality until I was 21. I've lost all my friends after starting transition.

Yet there are television documentaries showing transsexuals (mtfs) who transition in their late 40s or even 50s and already have a family(!) with kids(!). So they were married for years and had regulary sex with their wife. I can't relate to that. I once tried to have sex "as a man" and I started crying. Never tried it again and never even could flirt as a guy.

The thing is that these people who transition at 40+ turn out to not look like a woman (in most cases). They look like men in dresses. Why do they do it? Is it a fetish? Is it that why they are doing that to their family, wife and kids? I can't imagine they really think of them as "hot" looking like a very masculine houswife (at best!).
But I still do not understand how they could live as a man having sex as a male, having a family etc.
In fact I don't get these people at all.

>>6876962
i had to google that weird acronym, i only use the "agp" thing as a meme, it's my polite way of referring to pervert crossdressers since that seems to be the term they themselves prefer

Blanchard was an obvious dumbass and probably a closet crossdresser and/or chaser himself

also you're a degenerate and shouldn't be proud of your fetish, get help and realize you're a man, stop making life harder for trans women

>>6876971
you'd have to settle obviously, duh

you can't expect *hot* and/or normie straight guys to want you

even mannish 6'4" fat cis female behemoths manage to find bfs, it's harder sure but not impossible

also, it's not like you're getting a straight man the way you are now

also also, you shouldn't let the fear of finding a mate hold you back from being yourself

>>6877020
>>6877024
nvm ur both gross

>>6879158
lol

>>6879213
well, the older generation faced even more discrimination and oppression so it's more understandable that a trans woman would just dissociate and fake it due to all the societal pressure and familial expectations BUT many crossdressers lurk among the hons, to what extent idk

later transitioners like Marci Bowers seem legit to me and she's doing god's work, I've actually met her and she's lovely and very normal, you feel like you're talking to any other woman

>>6879611
>i had to google that weird acronym, i only use the "agp" thing as a meme, it's my polite way of referring to pervert crossdressers since that seems to be the term they themselves prefer
But that's not what it means. A lot of AGPs experience dysphoria just like other transsexuals. AGP frequently shows up alongside it.

>>6879213

The older transitioners with families are more masculine and less dysphoric. They grew up in an enviroment where masculinity is worshiped and femininity was shameful(for men). So they spend their life trying to repress their feminine side, thinking a career and a family will fix this.

>>6879611

>Blanchard was an obvious dumbass and probably a closet crossdresser and/or chaser himself

This is what I suspect too.

>well, the older generation faced even more discrimination and oppression so it's more understandable that a trans woman would just dissociate and fake it due to all the societal pressure and familial expectations BUT many crossdressers lurk among the hons, to what extent idk

The problem is, those "crossdressers" are probably trans but highly repressed. Crossdressing as an identity is a coping mechanism or stepping stone to transition.

>>6879611
>>6879658
desu I don't see why there is so much hate towards crossdressing on this board
seems like they're given shit because they don't fit the trutrans template or because for some of them it's just a fetish
In both cases who cares? It's a very tame fetish

>>6879665
Because here's the thing: a lot of them are not just crossdressers. A lot of people who experience gender dysphoria also experience autogynephilia i.e. being turned on by the idea of being feminine. No one really knows why the two show up together so often but they factually do.

People try to cast these people as fetishists who go to great length to indulge in their fantasies when in actuality they both suffer from dysphoria and have the fetish.

>>6879672
Yeah that about describes it. I just think people saying trans are either repressing a lot or will absolutely transition are wrong.
I've been contempt with crossdressing even if I experienced a little body dysphoria but the problem never felt overwhelming. It's just looking in the mirror and not really being able to like yourself. I imagine that's how most people not in shape feel.
Also legitimely afraid of 'mones since I've been born taking a minimal amount of meds of any kind and refused antidepressants three times from my shrink. I can't really push myself to taking something that would alter me beyond my control.

>>6879682
Different roads for different people. If you're mostly happy with yourself then there is no need to take the drastic action that is transitioning. On the other hand it is important that you do not lie to yourself about being happy. A lot of people convince themselves that they're fine because that's easier and by the time they realize they were wrong it is too late. Know yourself.

>>6879624
>dysphoria

not according to the current diagnostics they don't

mental health professional screen for fetishers

>>6879665
because they're redefining what "transgender" even means

rather than meaning, I am a woman/man who was assigned male/female at birth and am transitioning physically and socially into the correct gender presentation, it's now just "gender non-conforming"

it's bullshit

transtrenders and agpers are both part of the same problem, they want to invade LGBT spaces and make their fucked up personality disorders seem legitimate

rather than "transitioning genders" it's become "transcending gender", it makes no fucking sense because the entire mtf/ftm struggle revolves around the very real existence of the gender binary

transtrenders and agpers are queer at best, but definitely not trans at all

>>6879672
>they both suffer from dysphoria and have the fetish
if this isn't bait:.

FUCK

OFF

AND

DIE

you contribute to the deaths of trans people everywhere by confusing the cis people at large, you infect our image with your freakishness and make us look like deviants impossible to relate to

trans men and women are completely normal people, this isn't just fun experimentation with the concept of gender or a way for cheap sexual kicks

trans men ARE men, trans women ARE women

transtrenders are special snowflake cis people and agpers are cis men with fetishes

these shitheads co-opt the suffering of trans people who just want to live normal lives and not make a big deal about being trans, they want to disappear into their gender

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>>6879839
>because they're redefining what "transgender" even means
>rather than meaning, I am a woman/man who was assigned male/female at birth and am transitioning physically and socially into the correct gender presentation, it's now just "gender non-conforming"
>it's bullshit
>transtrenders and agpers are both part of the same problem, they want to invade LGBT spaces and make their fucked up personality disorders seem legitimate
>rather than "transitioning genders" it's become "transcending gender", it makes no fucking sense because the entire mtf/ftm struggle revolves around the very real existence of the gender binary
>transtrenders and agpers are queer at best, but definitely not trans at all

But even supposing one cannot have dysphoria and agp it's ok as long as they don't claim to be trans right?
Why do you give shit to crossdressers who don't make it a lgbt concern?

>>6879839
Sorry, but:
THIS.

It's not about having some degree of AGP or not. It's about the ability to live as a man.

Fine, there are some 40+ or even 50+ mtf-transitioners who had a very tough life. But my point (>>6879213) was that these people very often had
>frequently sex with a woman/women as a man
>had children as a dad
But how? I acknowledge that these people had severe problems because of the mentality they grow up in. But how can they "imitate" being a man while having a seemingly normal marriage? Are they fooling their wife constantly? Don't they enjoy using their dick?
>muh, I am a transsexual, but I enjoy fucking my wife very much
I remember watching a so called "transsexual" in television. It was not a pure trash talk show but a political talk show. There was a man who called himself "transsexual" and tried to present as a woman. He was asked whether he wanted SRS or not. He said:
"I have a wife and I enjoy my sex life. Destroying my penis would be counter-productive."
...
That's not a transsexual, that is literally a cis-person with a fetish who wants to live this fetish constantly!
He was asked why he did not live as a woman part time. He said:
"Well, because I living a double life is hard sometimes. I had to put my makeup off when I had to meet certain people and then I had to put it on again."
A transvestite posing as a tranny.

>>6879839
>not according to the current diagnostics they don't
>mental health professional screen for fetishers
WPATH has discounted Blanchard's typology and thus views the presence of AGP as irrelevant to the process. Mental health professionals screen for people who do not experience dysphoria.

>if this isn't bait:.
This isn't bait. This is a fact, whether you find it convenient or not. Throwing people who experience dysphoria just like you do under the bus because they make you look bad and exhibit fetishistic behavior is cruel to the extreme.

It is not "fun experimentation" or a way to look for "cheap thrills" for those people either.

>>6879878
>But how? I acknowledge that these people had severe problems because of the mentality they grow up in. But how can they "imitate" being a man while having a seemingly normal marriage? Are they fooling their wife constantly? Don't they enjoy using their dick?
The same way homosexuals pretended to be straight in conservative societies for most of history.

>A transvestite posing as a tranny
Way to make up your mind based on isolated anecdotes.

>>6879865
I'm not >>6879839,
I'm >>6879213 >>6879878
but I want to respond anyway.

Crossdressers are fine, transvestites are fine.

But it is FATAL to give young trannies who have absolute NO CONCEPT about what is going on with them the idea that crossdressers and transvestites are transsexuals.
You have to point out that there are huge differences. Youngsters need genuine role models in order to find their way.

How often did a young transsexual person see a so called "transsexual" in television or other media and decided to stay in the closet for another year or two?
How many teenage transsexual girls died because they associated themselves with these people and were horrified?
How many commited suicide because they thought being a crossdresser (man in a dress triggering the dyphoria even harder) was the only option they had to become somewhat more of a woman?

Times haved changed thanks to the internet.
But the internet was full of agplers from the beginning, too! The first ""transsexual""-websites I visited were obviously crossdressers and transvestites, and I don't even mean susans place and what not.

>>6879885
Again I am not the one you are responding to.
Here is my opinion:
These fetishes are fine.
They have fetishes and have dyphoria/are transsexual.. okay, fine!
But going out in public or even the media and presenting their fetish ("Teeh heeh.. I am such a woman.. teeh heeh") along with them being trans and obviously associating these two is harmful for everybody who has dyphoria without having the fetish.
>having a fetish
>vs.
>presenting fetish in public and implying it has something to do with a medical condition that actually has nothing to do with any fetishes

>>6879865
i literally don't

if someone wants to be the little girl in private then that shit's totally gucci

behind close doors everyone should be free to do whatever tf they want as long they're not hurting another person

just don't turn your fetish into your whole identity and public persona and position yourself as some kind of ground-breaking trans icon

if you want to claim to be trans and an activist:
don't arbitrarily pick your name from a list of Miss America pageant contestants half your age just because you think it belongs to the sexiest one

don't refuse to put any effort into making your voice sound even slightly more feminine

don't vocally support a political party that views trans people as degenerates who need to be "reprogrammed" at best and executed at worst

don't pose in lingerie with a meaty tuck and stupid coy smile on a major magazine in a deranged attempt to go from that creepy reality tv show dad to sex symbol

don't compete with your own stepdaughters and ex-wife to try to be the new "It girl" on the scene

as long as fetishers don't completely lose their minds and try to make their fantasies reality then idgaf

>>6879132

>adding muscle to a small, short, curvy female body doesn't make it look like a male one standing next to a cis guy

I think the average female skeleton roided up and with enough excercise will look more masculine than the average male skeleton with no excercise.

>>6879913
>40+ and 50+ mtf-transsexuals who were married just repressed their transsexuality like homosexuals did over centuries.
I disagree. A man who gets his dick hard and fucks a woman is not gay. Maybe he can do it once or twice (by having homosexual thoughts while fucking the female) but a gay man is not able to fake a whole heterosexual marriage (asexual couples excluded). And a transsexual woman is not able to fake a marriage playing a gender role.
Most homosexuals in history became clerics. The biggest gay club until this very day are the officials of the catholic church.
Men who come out as "gay" after many years of living in a "normal" marriage with sex, maybe even children etc., are bisexual.

Nobody believes in the:
>"Hey, I am a straight man but I fuck boys occasionally - does not make my gay!"
meme.
Why should I think otherwise about the
>"Hey, I was married to a woman for 15 years, had sex with her on a regular basis, we have 2 children, but that does not make me heterosexual, I am totally NOT into women, I am gay as fuck"
meme?

>>6879922
Last person you responded to here. I actually agree that the idea that transsexuals are just fetishists is harmful to the trans community at large and I 100% understand your concern.

Here's the big problem: As I said earlier there is actually a significant portion of transsexuals who experience these AGP fantasies, think that means they can't be trans and end up repressing in a way that is just as dangerous to themselves. It is not at all clear why so many transsexuals experience such thoughts but they factually do. That does NOT mean that the source of their dysphoria is that fetish, or that there aren't many times more plain old fetishists who DON'T experience dysphoria and aren't trans, but that these fantasies frequently show up together with dysphoria in a subset of the population.

Given this situation, what do you do?

>>6879950
You're denying the self-reported experience of thousands upon thousands of people.. based on what? Do you really think that all of those homosexuals lied about not liking women and faking it due to social and legal pressure?

The "meme" that we believe in is "Hey, I'm a gay man but I married and fucked someone I'm absolutely not attracted to because society would otherwise ostracize and destroy me."

>>6879213
>I once tried to have sex "as a man" and I started crying. Never tried it again and never even could flirt as a guy.

Same. I don't understand the "but, I wanna keep my boners" crowd in the slightest.

>>6879974
>Here's the big problem: As I said earlier there is actually a significant portion of transsexuals who experience these AGP fantasies, think that means they can't be trans and end up repressing in a way that is just as dangerous to themselves. It is not at all clear why so many transsexuals experience such thoughts but they factually do. That does NOT mean that the source of their dysphoria is that fetish, or that there aren't many times more plain old fetishists who DON'T experience dysphoria and aren't trans, but that these fantasies frequently show up together with dysphoria in a subset of the population.
I agree with you!
If a mtf-transsexual thinks that she wants to become a woman because of some fetish and disagrees with beging trans...
>"Muh, I am not trans.. it's just a fetish. Maybe it goes away!"
... she will get into serious trouble and might even kill herself.
But where does she learn about AGP anyways?
>tfw I've never heard about agp before browsing /lgbt/ on 4chan
I think we both agree that this board is in many ways quite toxic though it can be helpful and stimulating.

But I don't really think that "agpler" is used in this forum as meaning "every single trans person who experiences instances of agp". Some might use it in this way but most don't. In most cases it is used to describe crossdressers, weird people etc.
The same goes for "transbian". Most people do not mean "a transsexual who happens to be lesbian" but "a creepy fetishists who wants to become the woman of his own dream" when using "transbian". I've read quite often things like: "Transbians are creepy... some of them are normal and just happen to be lesbians, but most of them are fetishists".

>>6880013 (me)

>>6879996
>You're denying the self-reported experience of thousands upon thousands of people.. based on what? Do you really think that all of those homosexuals lied about not liking women and faking it due to social and legal pressure?
Well, according to your current thinking they certainly COULD lie about not liking women and fake it due to social and legal pressure because they - according to your current thinking - DID all that before.
>"I was married with a woman for 20 years but I faked. It was all a lie...
"... The truth is I am gay. Believe me! How could I possibly lie about that?!"
Well, I don't believe in this "lying" and "pretending while doing it" thing in the first place.
>"Muh.. believe me... I am not gay. I am a 'straight man having sex with guys' - totally different." (this is actually a thing, I don't want to ridicule you, don't get me wrong!)

>>6879999
Yeah.
I understand every mtf who has fear and/or other serious concerns about SRS, I think this is legit. But as soon as they like their dick and actually enjoy it I doubt they are trans.

>>6879878
>>6879922

The problem is, transgender is a big tent nowadays, it includes many different types of trans people. The good news is that there is enough trans people out there now that teenagers don't see just the fetishists.

Governments, researchers and activists seem happy with the big tent transgender approach. Just because someone can tolerate living as a cishet male doesn't mean its healthy for them to do so in the long run. Strong gatekeeping of identities also tends to exclude tru trans types who are deemed not trans enough.

>>6879923

I can agree with this, Caitlyn should of been trying to be more classy about how she presented her fetish.

Even Kristen Beck was a little bit critical of Caitlyn's infamous photoshoot.

>>6880013
Spot on. That is exactly how agp/transbian is used here.. but how do you think someone who has such thoughts feels when they hear everyone endlessly use those words in that fashion? When, outside of this board, TERFs say the same things without any irony in reference to them?

"I'm just a pervert. I'll ignore this and it will go away."

At the same time I can of course see how it looks from the point of view of an MtF who doesn't experience such thoughts and has been attacked - endlessly - by the right using the accusation that she's just a pervert. There comes along someone who actually does get turned on by this shit! Fuck, better make sure I make it clear I have NOTHING in common with that sicko. Why are they coopting my struggle and ruining their lives for the sake of masturbating?

Everything is awful.

>>6879213
Ugh, seriously. I cannot go through with having sex with my penis. My ass? Yes, after a bit of awkwardness, and it's way less disgusting for some reason to me.

I'm near thirty without transitioning because I live in a very conservative area and my father would either kill or disown me. Plus, I have spent literally ten years looking for a job locally (In a nearly 100% red-area of course) with no luck. It's literally willpower and trying to keep appearances with my family that keeps me form committing suicide. I want to be beautiful like everyone else, but that is also skewed by the perfect bodies that people pressure onto us. And sadly, it does matter if you end up hot or cute, which helps with acceptance in most places. I want big boobs. Hell, my mother wants them too.

But, we also need more people who are trans to transition and to have a greater media footprint that helps. And, let's face it: most of us will not be pretty. We have to fight for our rights and be seen.

As for AGP: there will be tons of people that will call you AGP just for being a slut, bi, or a lesbian. Or, having a TG fetish. It's an automatic label that people will just totally throw around just to be bitches, because they feel that Trans-sluts delegitimatize them (like I ever asked to be in heat all day).

Seriously, people just hate transsexuals because of a stigma, and we need technologies and surgeries that will help us pass in higher numbers and those will be partnered with those that can make us more beautiful/handsome. Maybe we'll have to get new bodies somehow.

BTW, the only times that I wake up happy tend to be when I dream stuff like waking up, putting on a bra, and doing my hair.

>>6879672

desu I don't see anything weird about experiencing arousal at the thought of being the desired sex. Why he hell wouldn't you? The whole reasons human have a biological sex in the first place is to reproduce. Fornication is so linked to biological sex that the act itself is just called sex and I have to differentiate terms so people will understand what the fuck I'm talking about. So how are these two things not perfectly at home together?

What I find weird is being able to experience arousal in the wrong body, same as that anon talking about trans women who manage to fuck their wives as men and father children for decades before transitioning. Not saying it's wrong or anything, I just don't understand it for a moment. If I was ye olde tranny, I'd have just killed myself, sexually conforming simply wouldn't have been possible.

>>6881800
>desu I don't see anything weird about experiencing arousal at the thought of being the desired sex. Why he hell wouldn't you? The whole reasons human have a biological sex in the first place is to reproduce. Fornication is so linked to biological sex that the act itself is just called sex and I have to differentiate terms so people will understand what the fuck I'm talking about. So how are these two things not perfectly at home together?
See:
>>6880048
>>6880210

>>6879839

The original definition of agp was simply a trans woman who is also a gynophile, as opposed to androphilic trans women being defined as 'homosexual transsexuals'. Both definitions are total bunk. They BOTH completely disregard the actual reason for transition, with androphilic trans people dismissed as gay men trying to trick straight men, and gynophilic transwomen dismissed as fetishists. They disregard the fact that sexuality is different from sex and that people, both cis and trans, can simply be either gay or straight. They also entirely disregarded the fact that dysphoric females exist in any form.
BOTH definitions assume the origin of dysphoria is in sexual preference/fetishism.
In addition, the 'arousal' observed in agp trans women was measured with methods that are completely bunk for cis men let alone trans women, and one doesn't have to be attracted to the same gender in order to feel good at the thought of their body being righted.
Agp =/= transvestite

People who are so committed to a fetish that they change their sex do not fucking exist, especially not on some grand scale. A non dysphoric person changing their sex would become dysphoric for doing so. It doesn't happen, it's not real. There is no agp, there is no hsts, there is only trans. The fact that /lgbt/ has bought into this shit has to be one of the stupidest things to come out of this place.

>>6881914
I completely agree with you. At the same time you can't deny that there is a substantial amount of MtFs (or MtF aspirants) who experience arousal at thoughts that match the type covered by AGP. This does not mean that Blanchard's theory isn't completely bullshit. The issue with denying that it is a thing and that those fantasies are different from the kind cis women experience is that dysphoric individuals who have such fantasies never hear that it is common for transsexuals of a certain kind to have them and so think themselves to be mere perverts agonizing over something insignificant. This leads to repression.

Since AGP is a better-known term than FEF it continues to see use even by those who know Blanchard's full of shit. I do think it would be for the best if we started to use a new term due to the baggage attached to this one. Most people, though, just use AGP as an insult since this is 4chan.

>>6881914
Says you

>>6882036
Blanchard's research is widely considered to be discredited. WPATH&friends pretty much tossed it aside.

>>6882050
Because people get offended by it

>>6882057
This is the scientific consensus. Do you think the medical community would truly toss away well-researched theories because people got offended? Science constantly offends people without changing itself.

>>6882071
Yes
Psychology especially

>>6882083
I call bullshit. Even if I assume this to be the case - which is unreasonable - you can spot countless holes in Blanchard's work all by yourself.

1) Correlation does not imply causation. The frequent appearance of two traits together does not imply that one causes the other. They could share a root cause. Blanchard baselessly assumes that autogynephilia causes the development of gender dysphoria but does nothing to prove it.
2) Non-autogynephilic non-exclusively-androphilic transwomen factually exist and have been documented.
3) Relying on self-reporting when it fits your hypothesis but assuming that some of your subjects are lying when it does not isn't good science.
4) None of his experiments have - or, indeed, could - prove the motivation of his subjects to transition.

All he has done is show that non-exclusively-androphilic MtFs frequently experience a certain sort of sexual fantasies and tend to transition later. Those facts are *still accepted by the medical community*. The rest has been rightfully dismissed as baseless.

>>6882143
Well that might be nice, but the narrative doesn't just point out objections, it goes on to proclaim knee-jerk opposing statements as true.
>Blanchard is just a nasty transphobe making up lies in order to ruin the lives of trans women and deny them treatment! Everything he completely made up was to insult you! AGP doesn't exist and if you think it does you're a disgusting bigot! There is nothing different about anyone and everyone gets the same exact approach to treatment!

>>6882206
Blanchard is not the devil. He is a man who had some ideas which turned out to be mostly false. Again, that many MtFs experience fantasies in which they are aroused by feminity is commonly accepted by the medical community and is documented in many other papers.

You don't have to reject that some transwomen experience this sort of arousal in order to reject most-everything else Blanchard pointed out. You don't lose this. You just take what turned out to be true and move ahead, leaving the questionable parts behind.

>>6874116
>OP photo looks like he's not very far along in his transition
people always pick on transitioners who aren't even half a decade into medically transitioning and point out their physical flaws

>>6882232
You miss the part where it's not just that the research is not proven true, it's that the rejection of such research is considered a proof that it's false, which is not right

>>6882606
I'm not sure I quite follow. If you have an hypothesis you can't prove why show it any regard? There is a nigh-infinite number of hypothetical explanations for this phenomenon. Lack of proof for is not outright proof for the contrary but it is practically very close when the alternative demands us to prove nothing. I could make any number of other, baseless, guesses about how transsexuality works in this very post and you ought value them as highly as you value this one.

If you're instead claiming that people reject Blanchard's work and then try to use the rejection of Blanchard's work as evidence for why it is false then that is not what's happening. People point out that the experts have deemed something to be true or false as a shorthand way to signal its credibility to someone who is unfamiliar with the details. There are many, many detailed refutations of Blanchard's actual work.

In conclusion I don't believe there is any reason to pay heed to his work at this point.

>>6883712
Go for it. If your crazy theory ends up resonating with a lot of people, it's absolutely worth exploring more. If it turns out you didn't do the best job of supporting your thesis, it doesn't mean the parts that resonate with people are proven nonexistent and false. This isn't P=NP - people's experiences matter.

>>6884431
Is it that Blanchard's theory resonates with a lot of people, or is it the only well-known theory that acknowledges cross-gender arousal? I strongly, strongly suspect it is the latter. The theory is primarily well-known because it was pushed by people using it as a weapon. There are other, lesser known but more measured, voices acknowledging the cross-gender arousal it describes without all of the nonsensical baggage attached to Blanchard's typology.

I actually frequent /agpg/ and by and large the experiences described therein hardly match what Blanchard spoke of. People cling to the term because that's the only word they have that includes them as trans and acknowledges cross-gender arousal.

A while ago I started to feel that continuing to use that word when you only accept a small part of the theory it refers to is negligent as it validates and perpetuates the presence of the other parts in the public's eye.

>>6884475
I think it's pretty much the purest way of describing it, medicalizing it without turning it into some kind of weird "identity" term where it's seen some kind of weird lifestyle choice to be reviled. There's no reason to make inferior weasel words for the same exact concept.
As far as the one particular paper, who cares. It's fine to criticize work. It's not fine to blackball anyone who would want to try again and plug your ears and go lalalalala.

>>6884621
>I think it's pretty much the purest way of describing it, medicalizing it without turning it into some kind of weird "identity" term where it's seen some kind of weird lifestyle choice to be reviled. There's no reason to make inferior weasel words for the same exact concept.
It is NOT the same concept as 99% of what's attached to the term is pure crud. It's like adopting Christianity because you think the golden rule is a good moral heuristic.

>As far as the one particular paper, who cares. It's fine to criticize work. It's not fine to blackball anyone who would want to try again and plug your ears and go lalalalala.
The term is inseparatably attached to the theories presented in those papers. I'm criticizing it for the same reason I criticize homeopathy: regardless of how people feel about it there is no evidence that any of it is true. There is no evidence supporting crystal healing and there is no evidence supporting Blanchard's typology, even though it makes use of an underlying phenomenon that does occur in order to try and justify itself. That's not "plugging my ears".

Disassociating a true concept from an unproven theory is not "weasel wording" - it's disambiguating. Especially since many other people, before (see analloerotic transsexuals as described by pre-Blanchardian scholars) and since, have made use of the factual concept.

>>6884772
Well that's where we disagree

>>6884786
About which part in particular? Believing what you like even if there is no evidence for it does not seem logical to me.

I just want to say, the term autogynephilia is stupid.
Gynephilia denotes an attraction to not simply the female form but to female sex organs. Autogynephilia suggests an explicit desire to obtain female sex organs in the spirit of sexual fetishism, and yet those 'accused' of being AGP fetishists are conversely those who enjoy use of their male sex organs and only seek to be feminised to a varyingly superficial degree.
In addition, it only follows that one who desires to obtain female sex organs would feel arousal at the thought of using them for their biological purpose. Wanting to use your sex organs for sex isn't exactly a kinky fetish.
The feminine portion of the fetishism isn't the issue, but rather the male portion, and the phrasing should reflect that. AGP lacks focus and specificity.

>>6884790
>It is NOT the same concept as 99% of what's attached to the term is pure crud.
Theories about a concept are not the concept itself.

>The term is inseparatably attached to the theories presented in those papers.
Completely false.

>There is no evidence supporting crystal healing and there is no evidence supporting Blanchard's typology, even though it makes use of an underlying phenomenon that does occur in order to try and justify itself. That's not "plugging my ears".
>It's like adopting Christianity because you think the golden rule is a good moral heuristic.
Strawmen

>Disassociating a true concept from an unproven theory is not "weasel wording" - it's disambiguating.
which you completely fail to do, see above


At this point I have no interest in continuing this discussion with you.

>>6884801
I agree in principle. Note, however, that AGP traditionally also includes a subtype of fantasies where the individual is aroused by imagining doing something stereotypically feminine.

See:
>>6880048
>>6880210

>>6884811
>Theories about a concept are not the concept itself.
Different anon, but exactly? You can form independent theories regarding the concept/phenomenon of trans women becoming aroused at the fantasy of being female without borrowing anything from Blanchard's. And the independent theory will probably be much stronger for starting clean, since Blanchard's work had such a flawed foundation to the point that any attempt to fix it up would make it nigh unrecognisable.

>>6884811
>At this point I have no interest in continuing this discussion with you.
I'll count that as a victory since you haven't actually backed any of your claims.

>>6884840
Exactly.

>>6884842
Do what you want. I'm not claiming defeat.

>>6884919
>Exactly.
Well I feel like that's basically what other anon was saying, but I've only been half following so maybe I'm mixed up.

>>6884927
Not really. They were saying terms are inseparable from the works in which they are coined.
Additionally, you suggested that more work is acceptable, which I also support, but I believe that this is not possible due to the current climate. If these aren't what was being argued, then I suppose we have been arguing for nothing.

Regardless, please stop giving me (You)s, I've promised to stop getting into arguments on the internet, but I still want to pin the thread for OP-relevant content.

Reporting in again.

>>6880080
I've never met a TERF and I think they and their ideology will eventually die out. Today we have the problem of transtrenders who think that everybody can chose their gender out of endless different variations. Transsexuals do not fit in this narrative because we're experiencing that we can't help who we are. We did not chose to be trans, so we are the great anomaly in the paradigm of transtrenders.
In my case I've never heared of AGP outside this board and I think 99% of all people (probably more) haven't heard of it.
>"Spot on. That is exactly how agp/transbian is used here.. but how do you think someone who has such thoughts feels when they hear everyone endlessly use those words in that fashion?"
I am a "transbian" myself. Maybe I'm a little bit bisexual but I definitely like women more. When I mention this fact on this board more often than not people do not respond to me anymore. Lesbian transsexuals are stigmatized on /lgbt/, that's nothing new. Happily in the outside world nobody really cares about that stuff. I've read a lot of straight trannies here hating transbians, at first I was a little bit shocked but I quickly got what this was all about. Here are some transwomen who just feel more legit as females because they are straight, so they put trannies who do not like men down. By doing this they create a feeling of "being in the group". Sometimes their argument is that transbians are just loving themselves sexually as the woman they are trying to become, so they are combining agp with being lesbian - you know about that.

>>6885024 (continuation)
I've not seen a single transbian hating on straight trannies - maybe one or two times doing it ironically - but fact is that as a transbian you could argue in a similar way by saying that straight trannies are just hyperfeminine gay men. Ironically that's what Blanchard actually says about straight trannies. I don't know why some people are so obsessed with this person, his opinion was never acknowledged by the scientific community.
>" There comes along someone who actually does get turned on by this shit! Fuck, better make sure I make it clear I have NOTHING in common with that sicko. Why are they coopting my struggle and ruining their lives for the sake of masturbating?"
Again, it's not about people with fetishes. It's about people with fetishes who present themself as trans.
>"Teeh heeh... I'm such a little barbie doll in my pink little barbie world... teeh heeh, yeah, I'm a transwoman... teeh heeh."
And yes, I think that it necessary to show that transsexualism (the medical condition) has nothing to do with preferences like sexual orientation or certain fetishes and are not a lifestyle.

>>6885027 (me again)

>>6881336
>not transitioning because of strong ties to conservative family and problems with job
I'm sorry to hear that. Nonetheless, I would at least consider taking antiandrogens.
>"sadly, it does matter if you end up hot or cute, which helps with acceptance in most places"
Sometimes being hot is not an advantage. I think that passing really helps. People here on /lgbt/ have high standars when it comes to looks. Also I would like to say that the voice is almost as important for passing as the looks. Sure, you don't talk to everybody on the street but not people on the street usually don't look at you for a long time.
>"we also need more people who are trans to transition and to have a greater media footprint that helps"
Yes! And not Caitlyn Jenner, please.
>As for AGP: there will be tons of people that will call you AGP just for being a slut, bi, or a lesbian.
I have to disagree. "Normal" people don't even know about the concept of AGP. Being a slut, bi or a lesbian comes with its own problems though.

>>6885024
op here and kind of amazed at what this thread turned into, but:
terfs aren't going to die out, they'll just get worse, and transtrenders are the reason. i've met a whole lot of terfs, and some of them were still identifying as ftm when we first met and have since detransitioned. detransition rates are going to soar -- they've already started -- and that's a whole lot of angry people blaming one ideology for their mistakes and running to another to solve them.

>>6884939
>They were saying terms are inseparable from the works in which they are coined.
Well they are a little, in people's minds, and minds are pretty important for theoretical discussion. That's the reason the 'current climate' wouldn't be great for further research, since the terms are linked to an outdated and largely rejected hypotheses. The CONCEPT of arousal at the fantasy of being female is totally ripe for research, and the term 'autogynephile' simply meaning 'self+female+love' describes that well at face value. But it's tempting fate to continue calling it autogynephilia. One could argue that the term doesn't simply describe the phenomenon being observed, but that it very specifically describes the challenged hypothesis for the phenomenon's origin, thus standing in the way of new hypotheses.
But at the same time, if the original hypothesis is really outdated and incorrect, why preserve the term that describes it rather than carrying it over with modern theory and letting the previous definition drift into obscurity?

I guess it's kind of like how the technical term for mental retardation changes every 5 minutes despite all describing more or less the same phenomenon.
But it goes both ways. Homosexuality was coined as a psychiatric diagnosis, but it still suits fine to describe the core phenomenon rather than the hypothesised pathology (but again, many would disagree and feel the term is forever linked to its history).

In closing, who the hell knows.

>please stop giving me (You)s, I've promised to stop getting into arguments on the internet
Sorry, buddy. Don't go to a crack house looking for an AA meeting.
ONE OF US, ONE OF US!

>>6885037
You'll never know how a thread developes. I'm sorry we've drifted too far away from your original topic, OP!
I am from Germany and do not experience an increase of TERFs here. But there are a few things I do not quite get.
>" i've met a whole lot of terfs, and some of them were still identifying as ftm when we first met and have since detransitioned."
I thought TERFs are "Transsexual-exclusionary radical feminists"? How can ftm-transsexuals or people who think that they are ftm-transsexuals be radical feminists?

>>6873978
What do you base that on? There may be a huge number of transmen who don't transition but aren't as visible as transwomen who don't transition.

>>6885062
they transitioned female to male (or more often female to 'nonbinary'), decided they made a mistake, detransitioned back to female, and became terfs
this is growingly common (a recent survey on the topic had 203 respondents)

>>6879213
>I once tried to have sex "as a man" and I started crying

Enforcing your own experiences on everyone else, and claiming that everyone who feels different must be a faker or liar is a typically male trait, anon.

>>6885027
>as a transbian you could argue in a similar way by saying that straight trannies are just hyperfeminine gay men. Ironically that's what Blanchard actually says about straight trannies. I don't know why some people are so obsessed with this person, his opinion was never acknowledged by the scientific community.

Just pulling this out of thin air, but I think AGP might be thrown around so often compared to Homosexual Transexual (HSTS) because the cis/trans lesbian population on here is so tumultuous, so AGP accusation become a popular way to challenge trans lesbians with TERF rhetoric, essentially accusing trans lesbians of being straight men with a fetish who are invading cis lesbian spaces. In addition, it provides more invalidation ammo in the constant and ironic dick-measuring contest that goes on in /lgbt/s trans community over who's REALLY trans and who's just a fetishist or trender.
HSTS probably isn't as popular an accusation, since those trannies more or less keep to themselves as straight girls. 'AGP's step in hot water trying to interact with TERFy cis lesbians, but 'HSTS's don't presume to belong in /gaygen/ since they specifically don't identify as gay men.

But that's just an idea, as a former /lesgen/fag in the early days of /lgbt/ (now /ftmgen/fag, oops, I was the invading straight man all along!)
But I don't have my foot in many of our infinite generals so what the hell do I know, maybe there's controversy in places I haven't seen that contradict this or better explain it.

>>6879922
You can't blame people for living their lives because the media, not them, exploits them for cheap views and not providing accurate information.

>>6885062
>>6885037
I have to preface this with the fact that I'm not well informed on trans medical service availability around the world. But I think America's informed consent clinics are to blame for this.
Considering all the other serious disorders that can lead to people wrongly self-diagnosing as being transgender, it's fucking crazy to just let anyone waltz up, say "I'm trans" and get on hormones. It's great for genuine trans people who no longer have to put up with ridiculous, potentially fatal levels of gatekeeping, but some gatekeeping is necessary when there are so many reasons someone might genuinely and mistakenly think they're trans.
And if these people are gatekept by psychiatrists in a country where informed consent clinics are a thing, what are they going to do? Cry 'muh oppression' and get on hormones anyway. THEN what are they gonna do? Detransition and use their experience/have their experience used to try and invalidate the experiences of the genuine trans people whose lives have been improved and even saved thanks to transition.

Some degree of gatekeeping is just necessary, not just to protect the crazies from themselves but to protect the genuine trans people from the crazies who'll skew the perceived effectiveness of the treatment.
It's a trade off. An individual's access to hormones right now comes at the cost of risking the entire condition/treatment being called into question. Preserving the refinement and respect of the treatment comes at the cost of needing individual access to treatment to be delayed for the sake of screening for alternative disorders.

>>6885024
>Today we have the problem of transtrenders who think that everybody can chose their gender out of endless different variations

I've never seen a "transtrender" claim to "choose" their gender. I've seen people say that gender is a social construct, and that they identify as non-binary, but that isn't the same thing as choosing your gender.

>>6885079
>narcissitic emotional projection
>typically male trait
lolwut
That's about as crazy-woman as it gets.
That's the motivation behind every batshit 'I KNOW he's cheating on me, I can just FEEL it!' car-keying in history.

>>6885099
the terfs agree with you
the one who's an old friend of mine is someone i've actually had some interesting conversations with on the subject, because we both transitioned ftm as teenagers but she was born in portland and so got t almost as soon as she asked while i was born in straya so got the gatekeeping from hell for several years and had my health ruined by unnecessary hormone blockers when i really should have been given t
there is a balance, i lean on the liberal side of it but still think informed consent is too far

>>6885104
Narcissistic projection of women and men does not work in the same way. "I don't like it, therefore it is invalid," is a typical male response rather than a female response. Hence why women statistically support homosexuality and transsexuals more: they know that just because doesn't feel like them does not mean that their feelings are invalid.

>>6885027
>Again, it's not about people with fetishes. It's about people with fetishes who present themself as trans.
I understand. What I was pointing out is that you have people who genuinely suffer from dysphoria and develop the fetish alongside people who just have the fetish. The first group generally does not act it out in public because they find it invalidating. The second sometimes does because it is not core to their identity. To an MtF ignorant of the fact that a lot of MtFs develop such fetishes while repressing (though 80% go on to stop being aroused by these things after transitioning) the first might sound indistinguishable from the second. If they themselves don't experience this sort of arousal then it is easy to feel disgust with the first group and dismiss it as invalid. If they themselves also experience these feelings then it is easy to hear that dialogue and think that you can't possibly be trans. These feelings are actually very prevalent.

I don't know if we're actually disagreeing at this point but I wasn't sure whether I got the above across. I apologize if I have needlessly repeated myself.

>>6885041
Not disagreeing with the sentiment but you should note that Blanchard wasn't even the one who first documented the self-arousal part. Quoting one of his papers:

"Gender identity disturbance in males is always accompanied by one of two erotic anomalies. All gender dysphoric males who are not sexually oriented toward men are instead sexually oriented toward the thought or image of themselves as women. The latter erotic (or amatory) propensity is, of course, the phenomenon labeled by Hirschfeld as automonosexualism. Because
of the inconsistent history of this term, however, and its nondescriptive derivation, the
writer would prefer to replace it with the term autogynephilia ("love of oneself as a woman"). "

so in many ways the term was created to support his specific transsexual typology.

>The CONCEPT of arousal at the fantasy of being female is totally ripe for research
Let me just note that there IS work being done on it.

>>6885099
Informed consent clinics are for adults, and I think that it is in the right of adults to do what they wish with their bodies. Underaged individuals are still carefully screened.

It would be one thing if delaying transitioning didn't have a severely negative impact on most people but it does.

>>6885107
>the terfs agree with you
Why you gotta say it like that, I feel dirty.

>had my health ruined by unnecessary hormone blockers
That's fucked. Delayed treatment is one thing, but that just sounds like malpractice. "Well I can't risk putting you on something that might be unnecessary (but will probably be awesome), so let's just fuck you over whether you're trans or not!" What?

I'm with you, I'd say. I think it's a pretty specific kind of crazy who'd transition unnecessarily, and I don't see how they could possibly approach the number of genuine trans people (but that might change with the more mainstream trans becomes), so probably safer to err on the side of transition.

But I mean, you get people like Walt Heyer, whose a stone's throw from David Reimer in how fucked he was. And it's just like, how hard could it possibly have been for a doctor to put two and two together and realise that this person should not transition? That's like a single conversation away. "Before I write this prescription, did you happen to have a fucked up childhood? Oh? Maybe we should talk about that a little, first."
It'd've be so easy to prevent that, without impacting any real trans people seeking treatment.
And it's not even just a trans thing, America has a real problem with over-prescription for fucking everything.

So it's not even about flat-out gatekeeping. I'd say any run of the mill person who doesn't sound off any alarm bells is most likely genuine trans, and there's no reason to make everyone jump through the same arbitrary hoops out of principle.
The only time it gets tricky is if someone has baggage muddying the waters. Like if someone had a Heyer-style childhood, which suggests a psychiatric problem, but ALSO just happens to be genuinely trans. It's gonna be hard to figure out if that person should transition or not.

So it's like a case-by-case thing. I don't think it can be a total free for all, but it definitely can't be a bureaucratic nightmare.

>>6885099
>Considering all the other serious disorders that can lead to people wrongly self-diagnosing as being transgender

The amount of detransitioners (detransitioners!!! not even necessarily people who aren't trans) isn't more than 1 in 100 at most. Gatekeeping is hysteria.

>>6885237
>that just sounds like malpractice.

Hormone treatment for minors in Australia is granted by judges, not doctors.
I wouldn't be surprised if there would be successful lawsuits against the Australian courts and governments for interfering with medical treatment once reforms are in order.

>>6885237
>did you happen to have a fucked up childhood?
> I'd say any run of the mill person who doesn't sound off any alarm bells is most likely genuine trans

Do you know how common childhood abuse is? Because I don't think you do.

>>6885099
Wow, that's a difficult topic. Yes, I think there has to be some kind of gatekeeping.
One cannot deny that not everyone who expresses the wish to transition experiences this wish because he or she is transsexual. Sometimes autism (I mean real autism, not 4chan "autism) can cause the expression of the desire to transition, a severe borderline personality disorder can do the same. A good therapist will find out these things quite quickly.
The thing is that gatekeeping has to be organized in a way that is favourable for the patient.
In Germany there exists the so called "Alltagstest"(everyday-test). The official recommendations are still saying that you have to live 27/7 in your "preferred" gender role for at least 1,5 years in order to get HRT. That means for many transsexuals running around like a clown for 1,5 years and a huge delay until the beginning of HRT for every transperson. Thankfully these are just the official recommendations! Ultimately a your therapist and your endocrinologist decides. I was in the happy position to get HRT very quickly and without any 24/7 "everyday-test".
That being said I really don't think that there needs to be a lot of gatekeeping but some gatekeeping is necessary.

>>6885312 (me)
>>6885084
Yes, I agree that the "transbians are all creepy agp-fetishists"-meme is partly a result from the fact that lesbian transsexuals were not welcomed by TERFy cis lesbians. Good thinking! Cis trannies do not have an easier time, I think, because there are a lot of men around who think that straight mtfs are faking their identity and are invading cis-territory. Men who are confused about their own sexuality can become very angry and violent. This even caused the deaths of heterosexual mtfs. So there's a downside on being a straight mtf, too.
> 'AGP's step in hot water trying to interact with TERFy cis lesbians, but 'HSTS's don't presume to belong in /gaygen/ since they specifically don't identify as gay men.
Most straight mtfs try to blend in with cis+straight people which are the majority and do not have a the feeling of being a distinctive group like lesbians or gays have, for example. So the first steps of being an "insider" is maybe easier, but not without difficulties (see above).

>>6885323 (cont..)
>>6885114
>I apologize if I have needlessly repeated myself.
No apologies needed! I may repeat myself, too.
I think we are not disagreeing on this at all.
Actually I agree 100% with your elaboration and just would like to share with you some ideas I have about it.
>first group: mft-transsexuals with dsyphoria and having the agp-fetish
>second group: cis-people with the apg-fetish
I ask myself whether the fetish is in both cases the same thing. Is a young mtf transsexual who gets aroused by wearing female clothes the first time comparable to a male person who literally craves these clothes sexually? I was 12 when I first started crossdressing and I remember getting a boner the first and second time but it went away. After buying more clothes I got "excited" again.. about one or two times for each new piece. Maybe it was some kind of onset fetishization of female clothes! Or did I just feel super comfortable and more like myself resulting in sexual excitement? You are saying that about 80% of mtfs who experience sexual arousal at first lose it after transitioning. I believe it is a mechanism for coping with stress and the general excitement of doing something "forbidden" and breaking through the wall.
>If they themselves don't experience this sort of arousal then it is easy to feel disgust with the first group and dismiss it as invalid.
I think that is a real problem. But usually people will only feel disgust for the first group if they show it openly in some way, e.g. walking around in fetish-attire, and the first group, as you said correctly, does normally not do that.
>If they themselves also experience these feelings then it is easy to hear that dialogue and think that you can't possibly be trans.
There is a danger about that

>>6885312
>Sometimes autism (I mean real autism, not 4chan "autism) can cause the expression of the desire to transition

Do you have any evidence to back that up? There is a higher frequency of non-gender conformity among autistics, but that doesn't mean they aren't transsexual.

>>6885333
yeah, autism is actually hugely overrepresented amongst ftms in particular

>>6885328
What's wrong with feeling some sort of sexual excitement about wearing specific clothes? Sexuality is heavily intertwined with gender psychologically (which doesn't mean that gender is all about sex, but sex is, often, all about gender), so it would make perfect sense that a transwoman who is normally not used to living out her sexuality would get a sexual response, even if there is otherwise nothing inherently sexual about putting on clothes. I guess you could compare it to a doctor who is used to seeing genitals: there might be a sexual response at first, but it goes away eventually.

>>6885328
Seems like a reasonable idea.

This is a very heated discussion very good topic . 5 stars.

>>6885269
And trans people are only 3 in 1000 of the general population. That doesn't mean they're negligible, and neither are the 1 in 100 detransitioners.
I absolutely agree that the vast majority of people who seek transition will probably be incredibly benefited by it, and it's an absurd and transphobic notion to 'protect' trans people from beneficial treatment. These are the people the system has to be built around serving, not denying. But I just don't think it'd take much to help out people who clearly have something different going on and won't benefit from it.

There has to be a middleground between blatantly transphobic gatekeeping, and allowing people to pursue medical treatment for conditions they may not actually have.
Keeping certain treatments under lock and key for patients' safety is perfectly common. That doesn't mean they're particularly hard to get if you need them, it just means they're hard to get if you don't need them.

But actually, I'll rephrase. Yes, fuck gatekeeping. It's absurd, harmful and discriminatory to protect people from their own medical treatment. But I do think diagnosis is important.

>>6885292
Poorly phrased on my part, but I wasn't speaking generally, just in reference to this guys specific story of being abusively conditioned to feel like he was only worth shit if he was presenting as female. Granted hindsight is 20/20, but it's like jesus, he wouldn't have made it two seconds into an /lgbt/ 'am I trans?' thread.
So yeah, I'd say someone who's got such strong psychological incentive to change their sex probably bares a few extra questions to make sure they're not sorely mistaken.
Just like someone who's father has just died maybe shouldn't be so eagerly handed anti-depressants and sent on their way - maybe he needs medical intervention, maybe he just needs to work through the normal process of grief, and I don't think picking one or the other should be done too hastily.

Since you did respond to my posts 5 times, here are my answers:

>>6885333
Look up "differential diagnosis".
People can have autism and be trans, but it is well known that autism can hide as many other conditions. (source: Tony Attwood: The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome (Autism Spectrum Disorder))

>>6885103
>I've never seen a "transtrender" claim to "choose" their gender.
Milo Stewart, Justin Dennis et al.

>>6885087
>"You can't blame people for living their lives because the media, not them, exploits them for cheap views and not providing accurate information."
The media does not force these people to show up in television.

>>6885079
>"Enforcing your own experiences on everyone else, and claiming that everyone who feels different must be a faker or liar is a typically male trait, anon."
B-but, anon, I-I am mtf and telling me I had a male trait makes me feel uncomfortable!!

I shared my own experiences and stated that I cannot relate to the experiences of others. That's not exactly enforcing my own experiences on everyone else. Maybe my words were a little bit harsh, but when I said that "I do not get these people at all" I literally meant that I just do not get them.

>>6885364
>What's wrong with feeling some sort of sexual excitement about wearing specific clothes?
Nothing.
>Sexuality is heavily intertwined with gender psychologically (which doesn't mean that gender is all about sex, but sex is, often, all about gender), so it would make perfect sense that a transwoman who is normally not used to living out her sexuality would get a sexual response, even if there is otherwise nothing inherently sexual about putting on clothes. I guess you could compare it to a doctor who is used to seeing genitals: there might be a sexual response at first, but it goes away eventually.
I agree with this.

>>6885103
>but that isn't the same thing as choosing your gender.

It implicitly is. If gender is nothing but a social construct, then anyone who 'knows' this and subscribes to a gender identity anyway must be doing so by choice, since there's 'no biological basis', or are simply open they're still brainwashed.

>>6885418
>Milo Stewart, Justin Dennis et al.

Can you provide a link?

>>6885418
>Look up "differential diagnosis".
>People can have autism and be trans, but it is well known that autism can hide as many other conditions.

That's a sort of vague statement. Do you have anything pertaining in particular to autism and transsexuality, and how autism leads to misidentifying transsexuality?

>Milo Stewart, Justin Dennis et al.

Do you have any actual sources? Because I've seen people misquote and misrepresent Milo a few times, and I don't want to browse through his entire library of videos just to pick out the statement you might mean.

>The media does not force these people to show up in television.

It encourages them to appear on television, but that is totally besides the point. TV producers actively look for people that conform to stereotypes the create and exploit. It is the media's job to select people that proportionately represent reality. It isn't on individual trans people to decide that their life in specific should not appear on television, when they don't have any influence on the product anyway, or may be entirely oblivious to how the media unfairly represents trans people. That's like blaming Richard Dawkins for encouraging theism because a dishonest fundamentalist editor quote mines his interviews. You are putting the onus on the wrong people who have the least control, and you are also encouraging people to stay in the closet and out of the public eye.

>I shared my own experiences and stated that I cannot relate to the experiences of others. That's not exactly enforcing my own experiences on everyone else.

Everything in your phrasing suggests that you aired your opinions in order to invalidate the experiences of others. You don't care to understand them. If you truly just did not understand them, and that was all there is to it, there wouldn't be a reason to voice your opinion in the first place. You know this, or you wouldn't humor the idea that your views could be harsh. Practice your empathy a little.

>>6885429
>It implicitly is.

No, it's not. People also say that nationality, race, and any other groups are social construct, but only extreme outliers would claim that they can choose to be black, or Irish, just because they want to. In fact, way more subscribe to the idea of cultural appropriation, aka that social groups are constructed, but that you specifically should stay in your segregated group and moving into another group is not possible. You know that there are transwomen and transmen who say that gender is a social construct, right? You are simply blatantly unfamiliar with the discourse, and are drawing false conclusions from terms you don't understand.

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>tfw having a nice and heated but somehow comfy discussion on /lgbt/

>a self-righteous tripfag appears

>whole thread destroyed

>>6873978
A frame can look larger by adding mass, many bodybuilders have small frames.
You can't remove the frame

>>6885539
We Ghost in a Shell soon tho

>>6885480
>Because I've seen people misquote and misrepresent Milo a few times
Even Milo misquotes and misrepresents Milo, that's what happens when you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

Different anon, and I don't think they've explicitly said that you can choose your gender, but they change their labels and contradict themselves all the time so who the hell knows what they really think.

>>6885539
An ftm says ty for good feels :)

>>6885480
>Everything in your phrasing suggests that you aired your opinions in order to invalidate the experiences of others.
That's just, like, your opinion, man. All I saw in anon's post was confusion and questions.

Do you realise you're rigidly projecting your interpretation on someone while accusing them of rigidly projecting their interpretation on others?

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>>6885539

>>6885612
I could be wrong in my assessment, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't point out what I see. Again, she admitted that her words "were [maybe] a little bit harsh." I admit, I was being more accusatory in my tone than I should have been, but she seems to admit some awareness of criticizing someone else, and she brought it up in the context of "AGPers" who aren't trully trans, brought up her own experiences of obvious dysphoria, and constrasted that with confusion at late transitioners who aren't like her.

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>>6885649
>I could be wrong in my assessment, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't point out what I see

>>6885656
What is your objection here? Are you saying that I shouldn't ever criticize someone unless I have 100% empirical insight into their psyche, or are you taking issue with my tone?

>>6885649
>>6885665
>downright insulted her on several occasions
>"criticize someone"

>>6885742
I admit that my first comment was insulting, and I shouldn't have said it. I apologize. But that does not mean that I am generally being insulting toward her, unless you can point out other instances.

>>6873978
I would say it is due to ftm's ingrained female privilege. They are brought up to think they can get away with whatever they want. Mtf's don't have that privilege growing up, so are much more self-conscious.

>>6885983
More like men act, and women don't. Mtf stay passive because they are women, and ftm act because they are men. Assertiveness, or lack thereof, is key.

>>6885525
that's what filters are for my famalam

>>6885649
>I might be wrong, but that doesn't change the fact I should keep doing it!

If you are wrong, and this is a big if, but if you are wrong...then that's exactly what it means. Stopping and not doing that anymore would be exactly what you should do.

>>6888517
>I might be wrong, but that doesn't change the fact I should keep doing it!

That's not what I said. I said there is a chance I am wrong, which is true about everything voiced by every person.

>>6890131
>which is true about everything voiced by every person.
Not necessarily. You might be wrong about this too.

>>6873978
Women are usually more insecure about their looks than men.