Why do the majority transwomen seem to have an instinctive extreme

Most people in general are ignorant about 3rd+ wave feminism, so most trans women don't even know that intersectionality is a thing and 2nd wave TERFs are actually a minority.

>>6772288

>implying that any young person in the modern day does not understand 'intersectionality'
>implying that transgenders really think all or many feminists are TERFs

Kek. Trannies hate feminists because feminists hate femininity, they think it is an evil device created by men to prevent them from becoming engineers and having orgasms. The feminists who didn't hate femininity happened to be TERFs for pretty obvious reasons.

>>6772319
>trannies endorse gender rigidity through toxic fetishistic exploitation of femininity and get thoroughly rectal-raged after people dare to call them out on it
that's more like it.

>>6772273
They hate feminists because the mtf trannys grew up as boys, and after transitioning, they realized that male privilege was a lie all along.

>>6772331

If they exploit femininity that already exists, then it seems pretty rich to accuse them of creating a rigid gender binary. What you object to isn't that trannies are forcing anything on anyone else, but that you don't get to impose your crass lesbian manliness on women and men who wish to be women.

Cry harder feminist

1. Male privilege was a lie. I get so much more privilege as a woman its not even comparable. Men grow up and are told they are independent, on their own, grab yourself by the boot straps, be a man. Women get coddled and helped along the entire way. They are seen as fragile creatures in need of protection.

2. Feminists preach they want equality but refuse to attempt any equality in areas that men get the short end of the stick (social capital, work place death, law prioritizing women, etc).

3. SJW Feminists want to whine about trivial things like representation in a movie but ignore the fact that Islam literally enslaves women.
____

I don't hate feminists. I myself identify as a feminist but I hate what feminism has become. Also 2nd wave TERFs are cancer. See: >>6772331

>>6772331
>>6772273
>>6772319
Look, I'm femfag and not even trans, but it's really obvious from here that it's infested with people who do nothing but vilify all of lgbt as evil child rapists. You're working with the same congressmen that pass antigay laws like the one in Mississippi.

It's your propaganda that's leading to the wave of bashing in southern states.

I'm done with the movement, it's just another part of the religious right and works with them now.

>>6772331
>>6772273

More like you get mad and resort to sexually harassing and staking women who won't sign your anti-tranny petitions.

It's so bad that all the sherrifs in Washinton and it's AG told you to knock it off or get arrested.

Disgusting hypocrite, you'll even violate women who get in the way of your revolution.

http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2016/06/23/24252075/attorney-general-warns-i-1515-signature-gatherers-that-following-people-into-bathrooms-is-obviously-not-okay

>>6772748
nice bait

>>6772796
>>6772273

Fuck it, you're indistinguishable from other religious fundamentalists, you write their laws and their propaganda.

Hell the only difference is that in Washington you actually started stalking and sexually abusing women until they break down and agree to sign your petition.

Only difference is radfems actually attack women and there's no line you won't cross for your war against the faggots.

Unlike you I actually still believe in feminism's core principles and there's no way I'll stick around for a radical moment that's now part of the religious right and attacks women as so to protect them from lgbt.
Anyone faithful to it's core ideas has to flee the monster you've created.

>>6772273
Like most of what I see on the internet: There is a very vocal group that only sees the femnazi trying to take away the video games and ruiners of fun. I blame tumblr's reputation.

But yeah these people have some weird and black&white ideas about feminism. Sex-positive feminism in multiple places on the internet will usually get a "what? that doesn't exist! Whatever". Feminism having multiple branches and schools of thought? What?

It could also be trolling. This is an LGBT board on 4chan of all places.

Also, TERFs effectively stymied trans-rights for a decade or two. The term is literally Trans Exclusive Radical Feminism

>>6772922
>>6772273

It's more like hicks in the south now all being riled up and screaming about faggots coming to rape/convert their kids.

And they're citing radfem propaganda for that.

Making homophobia and bashing resurgent in itself is enough to make the movement toxic.

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>>6772748
>implying that the religious and ultra conservatives lisens to dusty old feminist dogma

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>>6773009
>>6772273
They do and it's been their greatest weapon in this latest round.
The I-1515 pamphlets the Alliance Defending Freedom used were written by feminists and worked as their Pravda throughout the campaign, made their outrageous claims about lgbt eating kids seem credible.

Even the campaign icons were drawn from radfem sites.

And BTW, those radfem pamphlets were exactly the same thing the guys stalking and sexually abusing women were carrying into the bathrooms. Have to sexually harass women for the radfem cause IDK? http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2016/06/23/24252075/attorney-general-warns-i-1515-signature-gatherers-that-following-people-into-bathrooms-is-obviously-not-okay

>>6772273
Because trannies are living breathing proof that there's such a thing as a male vs. a female brain. Because trannies embrace the traditional role of women but feminists can't fathom that a woman's rightful place is at home caring for her family. Because trannies long their entire lives for everything cis women had that feminism convinced them to discard.

>>6772319
You know nothing about actual radical feminists.

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>>6773086
Why would having a "female brain" directly cause you to long for traditional gender roles? Or, maybe it's that transwomen try to posture themselves as a woman by focusing their image around what's traditionally viewed as "girly" so that they can be socially recognized as such, not because they're biologically predisposed to it.

There's no such thing as male and female brains, and saying that transpeople prove that shows such an extreme misunderstanding of what transgender medically is that it probably means you're really, really stupid.

i hate caras fuckin face

>>6773086
This, to be completely desu. Too bad I'll probably never get to be a wife, let alone a housewife.

>>6773338
Women were the lynchpins of their families. Look at what has happened since they let go of that.

>>6773427
Still waiting for that proof of female brain and male brains, babe.

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>>6773338
>There's no such thing as male and female brains

My fucking sides. It's child's play to identify the sex of a person based merely on the structure of their brains. There are real and significant differences between the male and female brain.

0/10

>>6773047
>"Maya recently drew national headlines when she resigned from her position as the Executive Director of the Georgia ACLU because of the organization's unwillingness to engage in civil discourse about the bathroom debate's implications for women."
LOL an organization of lawyers refused to "engage in civil discourse," pure bullshit. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the ACLU in Georgia simply kicked her out for being stubbornly myopic and insufferably transphobic.

Most of my respect for the ACLU is based off of the enemies that organization has made just by standing for civil liberties that authoritarian ideologues seek to curtail.

>>6773480
It's not our job to fucking spoonfeed you something you could discover in ten seconds on Google or Wikipedia.

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>>6773338

It doesn't and nobody is claiming it does. There are certainly transpeople that defy gender expectations. There are non binary people that literally say fuck either.

But the shaming of transwomen for choosing traditional womens roles is absolutely absurd. It's equally as retarded as 2nd wavers who criticize stay at home moms.

The fact that sexually dimorphic brains DO exist and some transwomen choose traditional gender roles is unconnected. Your claim is a fabricated strawman that positions the discussion in a place that is clearly absurd:
>Why would having a "female brain" directly cause you to long for traditional gender roles?

Nobody said this. People in this thread said transwomen do have female brains AND some transwomen also choose traditional female roles. It was never positioned as a single, mutually inclusive argument. Literally no one has claimed that. You are making up a conclusion which is easy to argue against.

s t r a w m a n
t
r
a
w
m
a
n

>live as a guy
>told being a woman is horrible and that I'm lucky to be a guy
>believe it
>choose to transition anyway
>turns out being a woman is better than being a guy by orders of magnitude

It's that fucking simple. That's not 'an extreme hatred of women' that's just accepting reality. The fact that seeing things as they actually are is equated to 'an extreme hatred of women' just shows how delusional society is when it comes to gender.

If there is no male or female brain why are there so few female inventors and innovators.

>>6773480
Literally, google.

Aside from that, why do you think it is that cis men with low T are miserable? Or why cis women with low E or high T are feel bad? If a body is just a body then it shouldn't bother them.

>>6772273
>thought that all of feminism is just a meme and that being a woman is life on easy modo
>transition into female
>realize most of what feminists have been talking about is valid and applicable
>become much more sympathetic to the plight of women (including radfems)

I'm probably in the minority but I think gender as a binary is pretty whack, and brainsex isn't really a thing

>>6772273
Don't forget they also hate ftms and treat them like women

>>6773603
>why do you think it is that cis men with low T are miserable
uh, femboys? Nuked T and running under a haze of E isn't terrible for every guy.
>>6773614
Which was all fine and dandy right up till the part about working with the far right to convince the public that anyone lgbt is a monster who'll chop up their kid and rape their wife. People are dying for it now and the deep south is worse than I've ever seen it.

Your homophobia is inexcusable, and turning faggots into your Kulaks sure does nothing to help the people you claim to help.

>>6773730
>femboy exceptions

You know what I meant. Quit playing dense.

>>6773738
Wasn't them though, just saying there's grey areas

More pissed over the guy in >>6773614 defending the gay bashers and the people writing pamphlets for the sake of turning the feeble minded into more bashers.

>>6773614
>and brainsex isn't really a thing
How can anyone in their right mind, especially a transgender person, think this at all? Why would you suppose the brain has no sexual dimorphism whatsoever when this is not the case for the entire rest of the human body?
Idiocy. You've eaten up a big lie to suit a feminist agenda.

>>6773775
>Why would you suppose the brain has no sexual dimorphism whatsoever when this is not the case for the entire rest of the human body?

an incomplete list of human parts that show no sexual dimorphism: toes, feet, ankles, shins, knees, thighs, ribs, shoulder, arm, elbow, forearm, hand, fingers, neck, skull

places that do show dimophism: genitals, hips, breasts, overall height/weight

>>6773824
>skull

LMAO

>neck

LMAO

>ribs

LMAO

>feet

LMAO

>thighs

LMAO

>hands

LMAO

is this bait? Holy shit.

>>6773775
I dunno, honestly it is kinda a might be more of a 'spectrum' in a kinda way and 'cis' like fems don't necessarily fall into their end. Doctors or other people menacing people into acting like gender steryotye in exchange for meds is disgusting too.

That still doesn't justify his going head over heels for the same evanelical coalition that's smearing fags as child predators and has sparked the biggest hate frenzy in modern times.

Disgusting how he'll back the same people who sexually abused women to try and further their anti trans crusade.
>>6773824
Brain responds to sex steroids, esp in utero. Look up RORA.

>"There's no such thing as brain sex"
I swear the lot of you are as bad as climate change denialists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_sex_differences

Brain sex has very little to do with the social construct that is gender roles but it factually exists.

>>6772273
>>6772288
>>6772331
The dubbing of "transgender" was not something done for "accuracy" but in order to shoehorn feminist Gender Theory into the trans identity in the 80s once blatant TERFism was no longer viable. So, 2nd wave Gender Theory, invented by-and-for upper middle class cis white women, was transplanted onto trans people as a form of literal Orwellian thought-control—I know that probably sounds insane, but it's literally nearly impossible for the development of a sovereign identity for trans people. You, as a human being, are literally defined to your essence by the teachings of fat old dead white women from the 60s, who hated your guts and thought you were "raping Womanhood itself" by existing. These are the people who essentially Holocausted trans people by getting rid of trans health care for 30 years, causing tens of thousands to possibly over a hundred thousand suicides over that period that would not have occurred otherwise. Not to mention feminists are the ones who propagated the "all transwomen are rapists" meme.

"It's okay now, we stopped killing you guys! YOU OWE US!" is like the fucking KKK saying "we've changed, c'mon my niggas, I love fried chicken now".

Feminists are literally worse than ISIS. They should all be shot. They spread a toxic, evil ideology that steals sovereign trans identity. A bunch of cis white American women from the upper class identifying as "they" don't get to dictate my exist, and they sure as hell don't get to pretend they have any moral high ground.

Feminists are complicit in genocide. Any trans person who considers themselves a feminist is either not an actual trans person, or is a sad and pathetic brainwashed idiot.

Trannies tend to be turbolibs. 4chan is special. They only reject the archaic, obsolete brand of feminism which rejects them. So does the wider feminist community.

>>6773881
>overall height/weight

yes men are bigger but those body parts look the exact same on men and women

>>6774103
Oh man, this is either a TERF or a hon and I can't tell which.

>men's hands look like women's hands
HA HA STUPID TRANS PEOPLE YOU PASSED THE WHOLE TIME YOUR SKULL AND HANDS AND EVERYTHING ELSE IS TOTES THE SAME!!!!!!!

>>6772273
Resentment for ingrates. For example, lets say youre crippled, but able-bodied people did nothing but call you a shitlord and whine about their functional legs. How would you feel?

>>6772273
>Why do the majority transwomen seem to have an instinctive extreme hatred for feminism and women in general?
So you're just strawmanning, and claiming something to "seem" a way, without it ever being that way.

We hate feminism because it's a wretched movement, it's in the same category as nazis. Difference is that Hitler got enough power to attempt genocide, while feminists didn't get quite enough power to attempt their genocide (of trans people, then men).

Your "why mtf hate women?????" is completely false.

>>6773824
All those things you listed have are very sensitive to sexual dimorphism.

>>6774219
>feminists didn't get quite enough power to attempt their genocide
Incorrect. In the 1980s, Janice Raymond, author of "The Transsexual Empire: The Making of the Shemale", aided TERFs in getting the US government to make trans health care illegal. This is after they make the mainstream profile of trans people that of mentally ill rapists.

Thousands upon thousands of trans people committed suicide in place of getting treatment.

Feminists succeeded in their genocide. It already happened. It's still happening.

>>6774507
They didn't succeed, they didn't get enough power to properly perform their genocide.

>Feminists succeeded in their genocide. It already happened. It's still happening.
No, they didn't succeed. It's impossible to perform genocide on something that happens randomly.

Hitler didn't succeed in his genocide either.

>>6774507

You know that a genocide is a complete elimination of a certain people, not just 'some of them'.

I mean, if anything they probably just decimated trans people. Decimate means kill 1 in every 10, so 10%.

>>6774535
I think a lot more than 10%, probably closer to 30% or so.

>tfw I came out to my mom and she found a bunch of TERF propaganda about how transitioning is evil

>>6772319
This is is spot on

Source: my mom is a multi published radical feminist author

>>6773730
>>6773772
>Which was all fine and dandy right up till the part about working with the far right to convince the public that anyone lgbt is a monster who'll chop up their kid and rape their wife. People are dying for it now and the deep south is worse than I've ever seen it.

Yeah I don't support gay bashing and restricting access to HRT. I just think that trans people tend to reinforce essentialist understanding of gender which is detrimental to the goals of feminism. I don't want to genocide trans people just like I don't want to genocide regular gender-conforming people, even if they do something I don't agree with

>>6773775
>if you don't believe in brainsex you think all brains are the same
Obviously not, hormones do cause dimorphism, it just doesn't sort neatly into 2 categories. There is variation in heights too, but we don't sort height into 'male' and 'female', so why do the same for brain structures? Not to mention that there is huge amount of overlap in most structures and if that's the only metric for gender then most people would be classified as 'non-binary'.
Also studies that examine adults neglect to correct for the effect of socialization so we can't even say exactly how much of it is just caused by hormones prenatally.

>>6775313
>There is variation in heights too, but we don't sort height into 'male' and 'female', so why do the same for brain structures?
you may as well just say that a penis is just a variation of a clitoris size, and testis a variation of the ovaries height, and so forth.

>>6772273
They hate feminism because they've seen things from both sides, allowing them to see how stupid it is.

>>6775387
That's true, sex is somewhat of a construct in it's on way since we treat intersex people based on the shape of their genitals.
The thing is, gamete production is actually clearly divisible into 2 categories in the form of sperm and eggs (although you could argue about this too, since the most significant distinction between them is size)

You can't divide brain sex neatly like that

>>6775313
>Yeah I don't support gay bashing
If you're with them, you fucking do. All their modern political advocacy is working hand in hand with the religious right to tell parents that if they don't start bashing faggots their kids will get raped or worse. Your plan for fighting essentialism has just been whipping up hicks into a frenzy and bringing the southern lgbt community to its knees.

It's ridiculous really, a homophobic straight man who likes being "chivalrous" like you do gets it into his head that he's a Womyn cause his anti-gay work for the cause.

Disgusting, I don't know why entitled straight men like you are infesting our place.

>>6775313
The thing about brain sex is that while you can't tell whether a certain brain is "male" or "female" for certain you CAN guess with a fairly high accuracy. Every parameter has a typical range for a given gender and those ranges are different. Socialization is of course a far bigger factor than biology when it comes to behavior.

I actually agree that transsexuals tend to try to conform to traditonal stereotypes, most of which have little to do with biology. You need to think of this from the perspective of someone who was told that a certain gender was like THIS and the other like THAT for their entire life, who felt that they were the other gender, and whose identity is questioned and rejected at every turn. Fervently embracing stereotypes is an attempt to prove to society that you are the gender you claim to be.

What I feel you unjustly dismiss is that it is possible to, at a primal, biological level, feel unwell because you have the "wrong" body/hormonal balance. Wanting to perform as a certain gender is all programming. Feeling ill because your brain is wired to expect a different body is something else entirely.

>>6773882
I don't think spectrum is the best word for it considering tumblr SJW genderspecials are always going on about their gender spectrum, and now there's a growing number who believe in trash such as biological sex being a "social construct," that there's more than 3 genders, as in 10 or 76 or even infinite amounts.
Seems like a lot of them forget that spectrum isn't an infinite rainbow of possibilities, it's two polar opposite points with an intermediate area between them.

>>6773935
Under-appreciated post.

>>6772382
THIS

>>6774103
Their skulls are shaped completely differently, hence FFS being a thing. Many of the other features you listed also tend to have consistent differences is shape as well as size.

Because they were still socialized male in their childhood, so they must invade and take control of whatever space they want. Then, when you're like, 'Hey man, we're not a trans-centric space, really', it's all cries of OH SO YOU NEED A SAFE SPACE HUH? CANT DEFENS YOURSELF, HUH?

>>6775313
>I just think that trans people tend to reinforce essentialist understanding of gender which is detrimental to the goals of feminism.
>Also studies that examine adults neglect to correct for the effect of socialization so we can't even say exactly how much of it is just caused by hormones prenatally.
Fact is, actual research over the last 70+ goddamned years has advanced the idea of inborn physiological explanation for gender behavior over the traditional feminist socialization theory. Efforts to socialize male children as girls and female children as boys have consistently failed.

Feminists are ideologically committed to the socialization theory, because it's the foundation of 90% of what feminism is. But science has proven it wrong, and it's headed for the dustbin of history, whether you like it or not.

This thread got really boring really fast. Most of the replies are people just responding to themselves with reddit up vote posts.

>definite proof that chaserfag is also a troll
nice

>>6777374
>THE EARTH IS FLAT
>fuck off retard
>wow you're all alike I was just pretending

>>6773047
>1515
>ISIS
this can't be a coincidence.

>>6776054
>Disgusting, I don't know why entitled straight men like you are infesting our place.
I honestly don't know what the fuck you're on about I'm a male on HRT and I have a boyfriend

>>6776235
>you CAN guess with a fairly high accuracy.
That's questionable, it depends on where you look. Some structures like the hypothalamus and the SDN have a high degree of dimorphism so you could tell a lot by looking at them (although you might get them mixed up based on sexual orientation) but parts such as the frontal cortex where our 'personality' is have much more overlap.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26621705
It shows up in various studies that examine psychometrics which show small effect sizes between the sexes:http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/amp-606581.pdf

>Fervently embracing stereotypes is an attempt to prove to society that you are the gender you claim to be.
I totally get that, and I never 'blame' trans people for what they do. It's not only a way to get affirmation but it also acts as a protective measure against expectations. Totally reasonable response, just not what I would like to see happen in an ideal world.

>Feeling ill because your brain is wired to expect a different body is something else entirely.
I don't think there is much evidence for the 'body map' view of trans since it's impossible to dissociate from societal expectations. I reckon that the relaxation of female beauty standards has reduced the amount of dysphoria trans people feel, and hopefully this trend can continue

>>6777344
>Efforts to socialize male children as girls and female children as boys have consistently failed.
Of course it's failed, gendered socialization is an oppressive concept for everyone and ESPECIALLY children socialized into the 'opposite' role, often involving all sorts of fucked up practices, not to mention the use of questionable medication to aid in the process.

>it's headed for the dustbin of history
Isn't gonna stop me from fighting against it

>>6778197
You're using an extreme sect of an ideology as cover for your homophobic actions.

That's how you can proudly talk about being with the same group that hands out pamphlets about how faggots will rape and kill kids. The actions they took all over te United States, especially in southern states speaks for you and rest of their members. And you, a man who thinks he's straight, think that makes him above their rules.
>questionable medication
Oh, and now a creep like you is saying that only old men like yourself should be entitled to antiandrogens?

And that they need controlls -namely psychs giving them only to people who act out like caricatures of women-

That's rich, you claim to be against roles but want a system tha forces anyone who wants any body autonomy to act like some cartoon steryotype.

Fitting, it's only creepy old hons who do that, and the homophobia. I'm sick of creepy straight men like you infesting our movement. Monsters like you have to be purged.

>>6777203
> so they must invade and take control of whatever space they want.

Oh cuz women never do that right?

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>>6777203
http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2016/06/23/24252075/attorney-general-warns-i-1515-signature-gatherers-that-following-people-into-bathrooms-is-obviously-not-okay

Please explain why you're stalking and sexual abusing women?

You say your staking and sexual abuse will protect women from trannies, but somehow, I don't think the many women you've victimized will agree.

Don't you ever feel bad for the women you've hurt and made afraid for their lives?

>>6778197
>Brain stuff
We don't disagree there. Some areas tend to differ in some ways while others are pretty much identical.

>I don't think there is much evidence for the 'body map' view of trans since it's impossible to dissociate from societal expectations.
I know of one study which shows that pre-HRT pre-OP transsexuals (i.e. people who claim to experience gender dysphoria) who are only attracted to people of their natal sex have brains in which the typically sexually dismorphic regions tend to be feminized/masculinized, to the point where they look distinct from those of men, women, and even other types of transsexuals. Not a definite proof but something to think about.

4chan thinks the link is spam so google "A Review of the Status of Brain Structure Research in Transsexualism, Springer". This should point you to the open access paper.

It is not that I think that the brains of men and women are radically different in their function and make people behave very differently, but it makes sense for lizard brain stuff like knowing you're "supposed" to have certain organs to be hardcoded.

>I reckon that the relaxation of female beauty standards has reduced the amount of dysphoria trans people feel, and hopefully this trend can continue
That's true for sure.

>>6782479
>>6778197
>I reckon that the relaxation of female beauty standards has reduced the amount of dysphoria trans people feel, and hopefully this trend can continue
That's insanity.

Explain the very high rates of anorexia and BDD in femboys when society should be immunizing them from that by telling them that it's great for guys to be getting bulky and rugged. Body dysmorphia is a medical problem, not a social one.


You can do all the social engineering you want But just like the cases of guys wanting to stay small and neotenous show, it won't do fuck to stop it.

I'm glad the recession decimated social science funding because the last thing we need are megalomaniacs trying to change everyone and over turn medicine

>>6782557
I mean, if you can't pass very well then society being more accepting of you regardless because it has a wider conception of how men/women can look like would clearly make you feel better, no? This is not a solution, just something that helps.

Feminism undermines their sissy housewife fetish, which is an important part of their identity.

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>>6782619
Found the pedo spammer posting his usual pasta
Wana have them check if you're dodging That cp ban again?

>>6782619
>a woman obeying her husband and staying home to care for her family is degenerate
k

Transwomen get a new perspective on the dogma of feminists. They get to see how the lives of men and women actually are and make judgements based on actual experience instead of going off the word of career feminist "intellectuals" who only have experience as women and assume how men's lives must be based on cherry picked evidence. Knowing what both sides are like removes the curtains from the feminist rhetoric that would have you believe that women are oppressed in western society.

Having feminists say to men "you have no idea what it's like, how hard it is, to be a woman" completely believing it yet if a man told her back "you're right, I don't, and you have no idea what it's like being a man, so relatively you have no idea how much harder or easier women have it than men" she would call him a misogynist even though he's completely correct. She just can't see the hypocrisy of her belief because women are indoctrinated by feminism from the day they are born. Anything or anyone pointing to a conclusion that women are not the oppressed victims of society is blasphemy and a sign of a misogynist (a non-believer). It's really not unlike fundamentalist religious beliefs and how they indoctrinate children from birth to believe that their god is the one true path to salvation and any non-believer is literally working for the enemy of god. Transwomen, while women and generally support women (and men) in society, just have a unique perspective that lets them see through the lies because they weren't indoctrinated in the same way.

What it all really shows is that women and men deal with double standards and discrimination in society on a relatively equal level. Transwomen generally just think that change should be made for both men and women if we want real equality instead of only working on women's issues because it will only lead to a more unequal result.

>>6782339
>You're using an extreme sect of an ideology as cover for your homophobic actions.
What homophobic actions are you accusing me of? Seriously what did I say that's homophobic?
I am literally in a homosexual relationship and have been the target of plenty of homophobia myself.

>questionable medication
>Oh, and now a creep like you is saying that only old men like yourself should be entitled to antiandrogens?
By questionable medication I meant the kind of horse piss given to people like David Reimer, all of it done with the assumption of the validity of gender.
Also I totally support people modifying their body as they see fit with the use of HRT, and we should expand access to it under the IC system. Proper precautions still need to be placed though to ensure that the body-image issues people have are treated not just with medication but also with social support.

>And that they need controlls -namely psychs giving them only to people who act out like caricatures of women-
That's the system currently, if you want to change your body you need to say that you're "actually female inside" and you're encouraged to make up stories about your childhood for the sake of conforming to a narrative.

>anyone who wants any body autonomy to act like some cartoon steryotype.
Nope, I just think it would be good if they didn't say they are the 'opposite gender'

> I'm sick of creepy straight men like you infesting our movement. Monsters like you have to be purged.
Your rhetoric is so emotional it's kinda worrying. Why do you keep calling me a straight man?

>>6782479
>who are only attracted to people of their natal sex have brains in which the typically sexually dismorphic regions tend to be feminized/masculinized
A lot of the difference is specifically in the area responsible for sexual inclinations (since obviously that is the most significant factor in sexual dimorphism). My point is that these sorts of brain measurements can not be mapped neatly into a two dimensional 'gender' system that binary trannies espouse.

>but it makes sense for lizard brain stuff like knowing you're "supposed" to have certain organs to be hardcoded.
Definitely true when it comes to sexual activity, but still somewhat overstated when it comes to most gender personality differences. The thing is, these brain differences (which are totally affected by socialization) are percieved to be the 'default' state of things so by supporting them the society actually exacerbates the differences which would develop purely due to hormones in a 'neutral' environment. Our biology shapes our behavior but our social practices also shape our biology so it's impossible to make statements that correspond to 'natural' gender differences, we don't grow up in a vacuum.

>>6782557
>Explain the very high rates of anorexia and BDD in femboys
They experience body-image issues like a lot of females do? I mean what is there to explain.
Reducing the pressure to conform to feminine beauty standards applies to femboys too, it's just not as direct since they don't compete sexually with most females.

>by telling them that it's great for guys to be getting bulky and rugged
So that they could strive to be /fit/ and develop muscle dysmorphia? lol
How about we shouldn't be telling people that they have to look a certain way based on their genitals or their brain structures.

>Body dysmorphia is a medical problem, not a social one
It's partially caused by social factors, only with enough wealth is it even possible to obsess over your looks that much, and it requires a very specific type of social environment with a combination of narcissistic traits.

I honestly don't really know what you're on about in the rest of your post, I don't think you're addressing my points anymore

>>6782619
The sissy housewife fetish is only possible in a society with gender indoctrination (both male and female)
It supports the view of women as weak and deserving of degradation, which is detrimental to feminism.
It's also not particularly good for the mental health of the people who engage in it often.

>>6782714
>Knowing what both sides are like removes the curtains from the feminist rhetoric that would have you believe that women are oppressed in western society.
You know it was actually kinda the opposite for me. I used to be very anti-feminist, supported MRA/MGTOW and thought that guys are living on hard mode, which was a big factor in my consideration for transitioning.
I wanted to live on 'easy' mode so I tried to become a female. When I actually started being treated as such though, I quickly realized that much of what feminists say about socialization is both valid and damaging. Over time I became much more sympathetic to radical feminism and I'm now in some sort of intermediate position where I accept premises from both sides of the spectrum and seek for solutions that synthesize the concerns.

>Transwomen generally just think that change should be made for both men and women if we want real equality instead of only working on women's issues because it will only lead to a more unequal result.
Pretty much this. I think that gendered indoctrination under the patriarchy is an issue for both males and females, and working towards eliminating the concept of gender is the only way to achieve emancipation from the non-volitional sex-determined social treatment we receive.

>>6774107
Its a TERF. Even the worst of hons aren't that clueless and deluded.

>>6775442
yeah but gamete production is literally the only practical biologically consistent definition of sex there is. And so anyone that is infertile no longer has a biological sex, or perhaps never had one.

>>6785574
Yes I definitely agree with that.

Some people say that sex is defined as the 'possibility' of making those gametes but I think that definition is dubious since it doesn't include fringe intersex cases. I also think that refraining from emphasizing sex ib children (who don't produce gametes yet) is a good way to eliminate gender indoctrination.

>>6785591
basically the point Im trying to make, is there is no reason to tell (post hrt) trans women they are biologically male when they fit into the same category as infertile cis women. Basically if you are on hormones for a while, you are essentially biologically intersex, but only to the same degree that post-menopausal cis women are. Basically sex doesnt really have any consistant definition that makes sense as a *social* category, so we should probably let people that don't fit neatly into either sex be considered whatever they want, be it male, female, or neither.

>>6785614
Okay I see what you mean.

I agree with you that trans people effectively don't have a sex, both I don't think that warrants them being considered as 'whatever they want'.

The thing is, they often accept that they have an intrinsic male/female identity and they then go on to perpetuate stereotypes that they perceive to be associated with that group. This is binary trans identification at work, and it's even more potent than regular gender identification since it gives credence to the brainsex view it's validity (rather than just being based on genitals).
I think that trans people have the greatest ability to actually change gender expectations, since they can be extremely feminine/masculine while maintaining their original birth identity. This would expand the possibilities that encompass being 'male' or 'female', and therefore phase out the concept of two genders since the lines are increasingly blurred.

Now in practice there are many more pragmatic reasons that trans people identify as a specific gender, so I would never 'blame' them for conforming or shame them. I just think that they *could* be making a change by rejecting the gender binary, so it's a bit of wasted potential when they just go with the narrative.

>>6772382
this

>>6772273
>disparage women and anything they do
women ≠ feminist

>>6773338
ahaha wow, we have literally seen inside male and female brans and OBSERVED their difference,
for example some neuron clusters are larger in men than women, and when it comes to trans people, their brains are more similar to the gender they identify as.

its as if you were talking out your ass and expected no one to call you out

File: read[1].gif (8KB, 542x350px) Image search: [Google]

8KB, 542x350px

How do I know if someone is really trans and not just insane?

>>6773935
hit the nail on the head
>>6785666
You know I used to think that, I used to want to just say "its ok you can just be an androgynous/feminine guy", but even then there is a huge difference between a feminine guy and a woman, not just in the way society treats you, but the way you feel about my own body. For example, I've always wanted breasts, and absolutly hated having a penis, these are not characteristics of someone identifying as 'their birth identity'.

the thing is, trans people are actually the worst to "destroy the gender binary" because I can say from experience that the only thing many transpeople want is to be seen as the other gender, why do you think we want to go "stealth" all the time.

I don't want to be seen as a transwoman I want to be seen as a woman, and that just can't happen if I defied gender norms, if I even wanted to.

I don't know if I think there is a gender binary or not, if everyone was like me and knew that they were either male or female then I would say yes... but then again I'm open to the possibility of people who like some aspects of maleness, and different aspects of femaleness, ie dickgirls. But I don't know I havent encountered someone who has actually liked intrinsically masculine aspects of their body, as well as liking intrinsically female aspects of their body. I havent met a trans girl who actually liked having a penis

>>6786301
>How do I know if someone is really trans and not just a [fetishest]?

Its easy put them in a dress and see if they get an erection

Why do the majority of treads about transwomen have a picture of Cara along with the OP?

>>6785350
>A lot of the difference is specifically in the area responsible for sexual inclinations (since obviously that is the most significant factor in sexual dimorphism). My point is that these sorts of brain measurements can not be mapped neatly into a two dimensional 'gender' system that binary trannies espouse.
Sure, but note that the brains of these individuals are distinct from those of non-dysphoic (i.e. cis) individuals who are also exclusively attracted to their own sex. This does not prove but does hint that, at the very least, the cause of dysphoria might be biological.

>Definitely true when it comes to sexual activity, but still somewhat overstated when it comes to most gender personality differences. The thing is, these brain differences (which are totally affected by socialization) are percieved to be the 'default' state of things so by supporting them the society actually exacerbates the differences which would develop purely due to hormones in a 'neutral' environment. Our biology shapes our behavior but our social practices also shape our biology so it's impossible to make statements that correspond to 'natural' gender differences, we don't grow up in a vacuum.
I ~mostly agree. Socialization definitely has a major impact on behavior and the human race has a very poor track record when it comes to thinking that socialized behavior is innate to a given sex so I can understand being suspicious of anything related to this line of thought. On the other hand I'm not convinced that every part of the brain can actually be affected by social factors. If whatever is responsible for orientation cannot then why not something even more basic relating to your basic shape?

>>6786374
The same troll posts them.

>>6786337

But what if their believing in being a girl/boy is brought upon by something other than being trans? What if they're genuinely psychologically disturbed?

>>6786468
And what if Jesus really lived? And what if magical powers were real? Asking stupid questions like these that are impossible is just that, stupid.

>>6786479

That makes no sense, Anon. Do you have an answer to my question?

We have empathy for men.

>>6786333
>but even then there is a huge difference between a feminine guy and a woman, not just in the way society treats you, but the way you feel about my own body.
Is there though? Is there a difference between trannies and females? What about between trannies and femboys? Can you measure the distance on some sort of 'gender' scale?

There's a lot of variation in personality types and such in those people, the only thing that they really have in common is an inclination towards feminine appearance and possibly sexual strategy

> For example, I've always wanted breasts, and absolutly hated having a penis, these are not characteristics of someone identifying as 'their birth identity'.
Not strictly, but they also aren't the characteristics of the female gender. They're just aesthetic choices based on preferences you've developed (after being socialized in a gendered system)

>because I can say from experience that the only thing many transpeople want is to be seen as the other gender
I think a lot of it is due to how it is portrayed and explained to them. When people feel depressed about their body and look up what is the cause of their issues, they see things like "wrong brain in body" and conclude that they have an incompatible 'gender identity'. It's the most common narrative and therefore they frame their own experience in a similar fashion, it provides validation (both for their sense of self AND proof of their 'condition').

>why do you think we want to go "stealth" all the time
Because it is MUCH easier and safer to do that than to be visibly non-conforming.

>I don't want to be seen as a transwoman I want to be seen as a woman, and that just can't happen if I defied gender norms, if I even wanted to.
That's fine, just do what you want, but try to refrain from reinforcing essentialist views of gender

>I havent met a trans girl who actually liked having a penis
There's people with intermediate identification who are like that (genderqueer, agender, etc)

>>6786431
>the cause of dysphoria might be biological.
I don't doubt that, there is definitely a material basis to the condition, but it doesn't mean that 'gender identity' does. That is a term people made up for the sake of explaining dysphoria.

>On the other hand I'm not convinced that every part of the brain can actually be affected by social factors. If whatever is responsible for orientation cannot then why not something even more basic relating to your basic shape?
Do you mean 'basic shape' like body? Because I've yet to see empirical evidence for the 'misaligned body map' explanation of trans people, I really doubt that the neural connections to the genitalia can be 'configured' incorrectly if it still functions normally.
Having a non-mutable sexual orientation is pretty important for reproduction, so it being more or less static is useful from an evolutionary perspective. I reckon that 'older' structures in the brain have more dimorphic features than areas such as the frontal cortex. The things we often associate with gender like personality traits actually reside in those latter sections, and they are much more susceptible to neuroplasticity and pruning (i.e. socialization).

>>6786825
> Because I've yet to see empirical evidence for the 'misaligned body map' explanation of trans people
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/imp/jcs/2008/00000015/00000001/art00001

>>6786801
>Is there though? Is there a difference between trannies and females? What about between trannies and femboys? Can you measure the distance on some sort of 'gender' scale?

If trans women and feminine men are no different from females then what's wrong with just accepting them as women and allowing them into women's spaces? What's wrong with them identifying with whatever they want and choosing their gender expression freely? Even gender critical feminists treat trans women differently from females because they perceive them as male. We're considered intrinsically privileged because we were raised male and are conflated with sexual predators and violent men because of gender stereotypes they've internalized. So, in a way, they're reinforcing the gendered system that contributes to trans people's dysphoria.

>>6786844
Thanks for posting some info

I think the methodology is a bit questionable since it relies on self reporting, but still very interesting

>>6786863
>If trans women and feminine men are no different from females then what's wrong with just accepting them as women and allowing them into women's spaces?
I'm not saying that they are not different because there is definitely some real differences which happen due to socialization. The effect of hormones in their brain is also not quite the same, but that's more complicated
Women's spaces are segregated mostly for their safety, so there is pragmatic reasons for not letting males into them. I think that trans women CAN go into women's spaces, but it needs to be done with precautions in mind, at least in our current society.
As for actually 'accepting' them as women, that is a much more nuanced matter. If we accept them as 'women' because they display traits which are stereotypically associated with females then that's a problem, because it reinforces the notion that woman = specific set of behavior+appearance. If we accept them as women purely based on their words with no regards of their material conditions, then the definition doesn't really categorize a group and so it is absolutely arbitrary and should be discarded.

>What's wrong with them identifying with whatever they want and choosing their gender expression freely?
Because 'choosing' to be a female because you're sexually submissive and like pink is detrimental to the goals of feminism. 'Choosing' to be female "because you want to" is meaningless

>So, in a way, they're reinforcing the gendered system that contributes to trans people's dysphoria.
Yes I can see how that's a problem. I do think that some radfem GCs are outright misandric and completely overstate the danger of men, but most of their points about socialization are valid though since everyone is indoctrinated into the gender system, even if they don't casually adhere to it

>>6789243
>Because 'choosing' to be a female because you're sexually submissive and like pink is detrimental to the goals of feminism. 'Choosing' to be female "because you want to" is meaningless

Do you really think that's why people transition? lmao

I used to cry myself to sleep at night in elementary school because I wasn't a girl and thought I was going to hell for wanting to be one since I was raised religiously. I realized the religious stuff was junk as I got older but the dysphoria never went away, it only got worse with puberty.

It has nothing to do with interests or sexual preferences.

>>6772273
Cause both women and feminism as an idea hate trannies, and trannies hate people that hate them. End of story.

>>6785402
>I wanted to live on 'easy' mode so I tried to become a female. When I actually started being treated as such though, I quickly realized that much of what feminists say about socialization is both valid and damaging.

>I only became a feminist when feminism became something that could benefit me personally, but here's how the patriarchy is a problem for everyone

>>6786756
>"empathy"

Uh huh, so do straight cis women - why do you think they join weird cults in the midwest and shit?

>>6793383
AGP detected

>>6793699
How was what I wrote in any way "AGP"? Has that word just completely lost all meaning on this site already?

>>6793740
I was going to write a measured well-reasoned response then I say my post got dubs.

Check 'em
>>6793699

>>6772331
Indeed, transmedicalism strongly enforces binary gender roles and punishes those who stray from it in the slightest. Gatekeeping locks out pretty femboys who want to be cute while identifying as men, while letting gross fetishistic creepy rapists through.

>>6777203
Are cisfemales who were raised as boys by weirdo parents not women?

>>6793809
So you're just a troll then, go away.

>>6793844
This doesn't generally happen.

>>6793850
Are they women or not? It tends to happen to autistic women who tend to be tomboyish as it is and outside societal norms and traditional gender roles.

>>6793856
That's not socialized male

>>6793954
Was David Reimer a woman then? I mean, he was raised as one, after all.

>>6794008
It's not a normal occurrence or a fair comparison.

>>6786301
The actual answer is that you, for the most part, cannot know. Most trans people, like most people, can't exactly explain to you why they are the way they are, and what they are, with ontological accuracy. Most people are simply people. There is a problem in that some people with a psychosis that identify as a different gender are conflated with trans people, but until we can have a rigorous scientific explanation for trans identity, there is no way to circumvent this without throwing out a lot of trans people.

However, the number of people with a psychosis who also at the same time do not exhibit the behavioral symptoms of a psychosis is most probably much smaller than the population of trans people. The problem is exacerbated however by non-trans people identifying as trans in the same way someone identifies as otherkin.

It's murky as fuck.

>>6794042
Was he a woman or not?

>>6794111
Irrelevant

>>6774562
>>6774535
Attempted genocide, whatever. TERFs have literally written down in books that trans people's existence rapes womanhood itself, and that the end goal is to cull them from existence. Genocide is the end goal.

>"They only killed some of us. Maybe like 10%. 30%. Whatevs dudes let's not get ahead of ourselves"

Percentage wise like 50% of Jews were killed. We still call that a genocide. We "never forget" that. But I guess a feminist genocide of trans people is just whatever.

>>6794120
He was socialized as a female in his childhood, was he not? That makes him a wooman, according to >>6777203

>>6794131
Hardly under the same circumstances.
That anon is me, so thanks for putting words in my mouth, friend.
;^)

>>6794137
He was still a male socialized as a female in childhood. Then again, his detransition strongly mirrors that of a transmale's transition.

>>6794137
You advocate the very "nurture > nature" argument that put him in an early grave, just to spite transwomen.

>>6794149
That's probably because, like a transmale, the hormones being pumped in his body fucked up his mind since they didn't mesh. David Reimer is such a strong case for brainsex that it's insane this is even a discussion anymore. A cis person going through HRT without knowing they're cis will still want to be their cis gender. The fact that trans people can take HRT and get functionally better, with suicide rates plummeting to something a little higher than normal rather than the ungodly 50%, is proof of the inverse Reimer.

TERFs will go to extreme lengths to deny the reality in front of them

>>6794149
Not under normal circumstances.

>>6794157
Somewhat damning is that his brother was forced to be raised as a male and was very resentful of his "sister", and would gladly trade his toys for "hers". He was angry at his brother for having been raised as a female and grew to deeply resent him. He developed schizophrenia, which has been linked to gender dysphoria and estrogen deficiency and killed himself long before David did. David killed himself because his brother was dead and his wife was leaving him, not because of his dysphoria. The inverse Reimer, was Reimer's twin brother.
>>6794169
So, in order to be a true, full fledged female, you must have been raised to the normal female gender role.

>>6794169
I have little issue recognizing transmen, even the gay transmen, as fellow males. Even with their female upbringing.

>>6794187
Are you going to argue that losing your dick in an accident and being made to take place in some fucked up experiment is the same as a biological male raised as a male? Dear....

>>6794192
Wonderful, it's not the point.
When you're raised doing and praised for a behavior for 18 years, you're not going to suddenly drop it, especially when you don't even think of it as male behavior b

>>6794187
If so, this is the saddest, most cosmically ironic thing I've heard of in a while. One sibling who is cis forced to go through gender dysphoria by being given HRT and being raised as the wrong gender, while the other sibling is raised as their biological gender but is at the same time undergoing gender dysphoria. Jesus.

Regardless, I just meant that the fact Reimer transitioned to male at all is a good case for brainsex.

>>6794195
>oh no, he found an exception that invalidated my argument
>time to frame it as invalid!
>>6794199
David Reimer adopted male behavior and dropped female behavior pretty quickly despite being raised as female for 15 years. In fact, he was pretty damn tomboyish prior to. Nurture doesn't matter beyond mannerisms. Gays often have pretty feminine behavior too and are socialized with females.
>>6794213
Indeed. That both were dysphoric is proof that nurture means fuck all.

>>6789243
>I'm not saying that they are not different

Then why did you ask that if there was a difference in the first place? That girl was right in that there is a huge difference between being a feminine male and a woman. There's differences in pretty much every aspect that makes the two groups and their experiences incomparable. Seems like you're just contradicting yourself.

And isn't making the terms 'man' and 'woman' effectively meaningless a goal for GC feminists? People already accuse trans people of blurring the lines between genders because of their push to be accepted as their desired gender. They feel threatened that if people can just reject the sex and gender assigned to them then the very fabric of their repressive society will be threatened. If they're accepted, male and female will become meaningless and the jews will turn their kids gay, etc. etc.

>>6793383
>Do you really think that's why people transition?

No, people transition because they have sex dysphoria.
Things like social associations are a factor though, since they are used as evidence and confirmation.
People who only have mild dysphoria might be 'pushed' towards transitioning if there are enough social/sexual factors that incline them towards the opposite gender.

>>6793560
Well, beforehand I thought that the patriarchy IS responsible for the hardships men face (due to the pressure put on them to succeed in the social/economic environment).
After being treated like a female, I saw the other side of gender indoctrination, and realized that the socialization is oppressive for everyone, and neither side really has it on 'easy' mode.

>>6794230
I meant that they are different in the way they are percieved and treated. From a neurological perspective, they are fairly similar (effect of hormones prenatally)

>And isn't making the terms 'man' and 'woman' effectively meaningless a goal for GC feminists?
Yes since it would render us unable to talk about sex discrimination, we just want to base it on biology since reproductive capability is the basis of the patriarchal system.

>If they're accepted, male and female will become meaningless and the jews will turn their kids gay, etc. etc.
This is exactly what I want, and trans people contribute to it, but I think it's enough. Binary trans identification can actually support sexist ideals, segregation, etc. It's the intermediate trans identifications (genderqueer, agender, non-binary, etc) which REALLY blur the lines

>>6794078
Damn, "most" people need to spend more time with themselves and get introspective.

I can't imagine going back to a life devoid of understanding my desires and my emotions.

>>6795077
>No, people transition because they have sex dysphoria.

So are you okay with people transitioning for this reason? If so then I don't really disagree with you and it seems like you mostly just have a problem with tumblr transtrenders, but most of us do too.

>>6795350
>seems like you mostly just have a problem with tumblr transtrenders

I have a problem with anyone who supports patriarchal sexist views, which some binary identifying trannies do. I dislike the tumblr crowd too but it's for different reasons

>>6777722
witnessed


also not a coincidence

It's like that reddit and morty episode where he tells his alien baby that it's toxic outside and he'll die if he goes out there but then the alien goes out there and is completely fine and realizes his "father" is just a huge asshole

>>6795439
>I have a problem with anyone who supports patriarchal sexist views, which some binary identifying trannies do

So are you fine with normal trans people who aren't weird reactionary MRAs?

File: 1471798485314.jpg (35KB, 560x527px)

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>>6795439
>binary
uhhhhh, real gendercrits ain't say binary, amiga

>>6795740
Yes I'm aware they're usually opposed to all kinds of gender identification, not really sure what you consider 'real' though.
I was just giving an example of a particular group I think is problematic.

>>6795725
It depends on what you mean by fine.
I might disagree with them ideologically but we probably have a lot of common interests/experiences and we'll share solidarity over dysphoria, I wouldn't try to disparage them or anything.

>>6795913
the autistic het lady redditors who're pathologically obsessed with trannies set the bar for real, I think.

>>6773935

>feminists killed thousands of trans people

Why do trans people never blame the government for not giving trans people insurance coverage?

You're all huge misogynists.

>>6786863

>what's wrong with just accepting them as women and allowing them into women's spaces?

They want us to say dicks are female, that "genital fetish" is real so everyone has to like dick, that abortion isn't a women's issue, and that women are never oppressed for their vaginas or uteruses. They are intentionally erasing sex and sexism because otherwise they fit into the words "woman" and "female" like a pound of mud fits in a teaspoon.

They're not women just because they have hard lives or like make up.

File: muh.jpg (59KB, 549x551px) Image search: [Google]

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>>6796207
>You're all huge misogynists

>>6796241

>government ultimately makes the decision that led to a supposed genocide that isn't even proven
>god I hate feminists they have MURDERED so many people

It's not logical and I seriously doubt that anon even believes it. It's just meant to make feminists and, by extension, women look bad. Not you know.. the US government. Which actually has real power.

>>6796332

Oops, meant to respond to this post >>6796286

>>6796339
I wasn't even part of this fight, I just find it amusing when feminists scream "misogyny" and use that as its own argument.

>>6796241
Not a tranny, just a fem, but do you wana explain your shit from >>6773047

I mean isn't sexually abusing women who wouldn't help you fight trannies pretty creepy?

How can you live with yourself after becoming the predator in http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2016/06/23/24252075/attorney-general-warns-i-1515-signature-gatherers-that-following-people-into-bathrooms-is-obviously-not-okay

>>6796358

>being opposed to calling mtfs women means I'm a sexual predator

This is a Logical Response.

>>6796355

>you have to call yourself a feminist to care about misogyny

Ever hear about this fancy thing called self-preservation, dingus?

>>6796387
>Ever hear about this fancy thing called self-preservation, dingus?
It's the way you used it. I totally get being upset about misogyny. Screaming "MUH SOGYNEEEE" as the entirety of your argument in a korean tapestry forum is a far cry from calling out misogyny in a real context.

>>6773338
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=gender+brain

50k studies that somehow involve gender differences in the brain. Please stop the pseudo-religious radfem dogma now.

>>6796387
You sexually assaulted many poor women in WA for the sake of your anti tranny campaign. That's pretty terrible. Terrible enough law enforcement had to make it stop.

And yes, you do use collective responsibility and that's fine, then you aren't above it.

>>6796393

Stuff like this will spread to "a real context" and is actually from the TransAdvocate website. Why allow misogynists to continue to spread obvious lies?

>>6796401

>trans people will never get brain scans to prove their neurological sex

Brain sex theory is a crutch and LITERALLY does not matter.

>>6796449
>You sexually assaulted many poor women in WA
Did they? I never heard and I live in Seattle.

>>6796449

>reports of men following women are Definitely Radical Feminists
>men have NEVER followed women into bathrooms or harassed them for possibly being a mtf before these bathroom bills
>women are ultimately TOTALLY to blame for what men do

Just another day in "I am Totally a FemBoy, not At All a mtf" Don Quixote land.

>>6796401
Hormones obviously have an effect on the brain, radfems don't deny that.

The actual way this difference manifests itself though, is dependent upon the social and material conditions in which it's used. For example, men and women can both achieve the same IQ score even though there are average differences in their brain
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811904006822

When it comes to things like personality traits, the effect of socialization is much more significant than the amount of neurons in some specific brain section. The only significant differences that the structures cause are in verbal ability (slight female advantage) and spatial ability (slight-moderate male advantage). Most other traits are an unintuative toss up, see:
http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/amp-606581.pdf

The actual amount of dimorphism in the brain varies a lot as well, with most areas having significant overlap between the sexes. There's only a few key structures that are very different and they correspond to sexual orientation (like the SDN)
http://www.pnas.org/content/112/50/15468.abstract

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>>6772273
>Why

because they are mentally ill

>the majority

no

>>6796481
They have your pamphlets. And it's for your political campaign.

And yes thanks for pointing out it's also hurting butch women. The public is dumb and the average hick now takes any androgynous person as equating to some tranny-faggot come for his kids.

Looking feminine, but dressing like a guy and talking like one and calling yourself one is now much more likely to get a violent reaction. It would honestly be less trouble to go full tranny and not stand out but that isn't what I want.

So congrats you've accomplished something but it sure is the exact opposite of what you wanted. It really just damaged non conforming gay men and lesbians but left trannies alone.

>>6772382
THIS 100%

>>6772273
Because they're men

>>6796699

>implying no one has ever asked a feminine trans woman to leave the bathroom

This actually does happen, regardless of the "it's only hurting butch lesbians" meme. Femininity does not always help mtfs pass 100% Believing only butch lesbians are targeted is a mtf political attempt to create more solidarity between them and women so women give up their female-only spaces.

Here's an example of a feminine mtf who still doesn't pass enough to not be asked to leave the women's bathroom: http://www.sptimes.com/News/92599/Pasco/Cross_dressing_man_se.shtml

Femininity ain't shit.

>They have your pamphlets.

What pamphlets? I don't make pamphlets.

>Looking feminine, but dressing like a guy and talking like one and calling yourself one is now much more likely to get a violent reaction.

And? Do you go into the women's bathroom? How is this a specific issue FOR YOU unless you do that? You have repeatedly said you're a guy, and you're picking up a cause that you're taking personally that should not affect you in the slightest unless you're using the women's bathroom. If you are using the women's bathroom, you'd be a man in the women's bathroom.

I hope someday you stop pretending you really "identify" as a femboy because you seem like you're lying to yourself.

>>6796481
The funniest part is cis women getting mistaken for trannies and getting harrassed and kicked out of bathrooms by other women because everyone thinks they have perfect trannydar.

>>6796489
>There's only a few key structures that are very different and they correspond to sexual orientation
Now I know you're just spouting bullshit that you know nothing about.

We aren't nearly at the point of being able to point out specific structures and say "that's what makes you gay".
The closest we can come is simply identifying neurological differences like with trannies and while trannies' neurological differences include structures that are non-plastic past the womb I'm not sure if the same is true of gay epople.

>>6786239
This. I support equal rights for everone, the world over (including women). I don't support feminism.

A lot of crazy shit has been said (and continues to be said) in the name of feminism, some of which is definitely not trans friendly. Thus, I think that transgender people are more aware of the extreme internal inconsistencies, shortcomings and cover-ups of feminism as a whole. There's a lot of skeletons in the feminism closet, some of which come out to play frequently.

I, for one, am not interested in endless ideological baggage. It's not required in order for me to advocate for equality.

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>>6799082
>Here's an example of a feminine mtf
lol at that being your example of a feminine mtf, dude's a clownish troll

>you're picking up a cause that you're taking personally that should not affect you in the slightest

do you not realize thrusting trannies into the public consciousness as being dangerous to women and children does affect gender non-conforming people of both sexes because they're associated with us? like, conservatives already think they're pervs and can't actually tell us apart, and you don't have to be walking into a bathroom to draw that kind of attention.

>>6799128
Gay men have differences in the hypothalamus which are more closely aligned with the average female, the specific areas responsible for response to olfactory stimuli

Look up orientation as a function of the Sexually Dimporphic Nucleus, the same effect shows up in other animals which exhibit homosexuality as well

>>6796207
Because the government was giving trans health care already. Feminists lobbied otherwise. They posed as gender experts and said trans health care was unethical, and evil, and trans people weren't real, and were a rape threat.

Feminism is an evil, tribal, primitive belief system.

>>6799082
>http://www.sptimes.com/News/92599/Pasco/Cross_dressing_man_se.shtml
>Here's an example of a feminine mtf who still doesn't pass enough to not be asked to leave the women's bathroom
>feminine mtf
Did you really just link us to an article about a 40 odd year old linebacker hon who punched five teeth out of a woman's face after she asked him why he was in the female bathrooms?
This is laughable, and in of itself an argument AGAINST letting mtfs use women's bathrooms.

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>>6799082
You're either joking or out of your mind, it says that's a crossdressing man, doesn't say anything about mtfs and the dude looks like a shaved gorilla. And hons aren't really fem anyways, they're just creepy old men and steryotypes.

If you weren't paying attention, I wasn't talking about dress or behavior -and fully grown virile men doing a caricature is disgusting- I meant body, like neoteny and female secondary traits. That's why I said boy on drugs. And it was really just that before all this shit started, you could act and dress masc and people would just think you're a young boy. Now that everyone is paranoid they pick up on thing like the tits and looking ambiguous gets a much worse reaction. Idk If this is what nonpassing FtMs have to deal with now, but if so you've screwed them over. The way it is now, if you have that kind of body type it it might just be easier to present as female and not stand out. But that's really misleading people and not what a lot of people want to do.

And I'm sure there's plenty of otherwise cute mtfs who might not pass cause height, but you just need to look at your own sites and youll see Butch women complaining en mass over getting mistaken for hons and thrown out.

I mean dykes/rads want to lobby for a law that would ban the mistaking of butches for men. Let's not pretend that isn't an issue, you're getting thrown out of female spaces.

>>6796207
you are the cancer for society and you already infected lgbt, please, disappear or go to middle east

>>6799480
>This is laughable, and in of itself an argument AGAINST letting mtfs use women's bathrooms.
Are you stupid or did you just not bother to read their whole post?
That's obviously what they were angling for with shit like
>so women give up their female-only spaces

They were trying to "prove" that femmine mtfs still don't pass and are unwanted as a counter-point to people pointing out how the anti-tranny bathroom bills are largely just used to enforce gender norms and harass butch women.

>>6799452
>differences in the hypothalamus
>the specific areas responsible for response to olfactory stimuli
And like I said that's far from saying "gay people are gay because of this specific difference" all we can say is that gay people do have that difference, we don't understand the underlying mechanisms yet, same for trannies.

>>6799585
>please, disappear or go to middle east
They'd rather just bring middle east style anti-gay "morality" laws to the west to deal with you problematic sexist fags :^)

>>6799082
>Believing only butch lesbians are targeted is a mtf political attempt
Oh it's not just butch lesbians, straight women can be butch and mistaken for mtfs too.

>>6799637
Thank God radical feminism exists. How else would we protect our society from the cancer of trans people pooping in the wrong bathroom. Allah shall smite them! Death to infidels!

I hope more poor refugees pour into the west so we can be rid of trans scum.

>>6796455
>trans people will never get brain scans to prove their neurological sex
Well some of the scans can only be done post-dissection which is obviously a bit of an obstacle to require before treatment.
Regardless though, the actual doctors and experts don't seem to think scans are necessary or worth the cost, do you think doctors should be forced to perform expensive unnecessary tests on strangers just to appease your feelings? Do you feel that way about any other medical treatments or just transition?

>Brain sex theory is a crutch and LITERALLY does not matter.
>factual reality is a crutch and LITERALLY does not matter
Oh! I think may be getting why you have trouble understanding medical practices now...

>>6777203
>>6793850
>>6794042
>>6794120
>>6794137
>>6794169
>>6794195
>it's evil aggressive socialisation that lasts forever except when it doesn't but that doesn't count because it doesn't support muh feels!
LOL
O
L

>>6799082
Oh and sorry, never answered your points so continuing from >>6799582
>unless you do that? You have repeatedly said you're a guy, and you're picking up a cause that you're taking personally
it still affects me, lots of the public doesn't distinguish between gay and trans, they just think ultra gay = tranny

So presenting as a guy, talking like a guy and living as one while seeming 'feminine' physically now gets much more scrutiny than it used to. I was happy with androgyny, but now people are freaking out and acting aggressive over anyone who's gender seems ambiguous, this frenzy ruined the nice little niche a lot of gender nonconforming gays and lesbians had.

>I hope someday you stop pretending you really "identify" as a femboy because you seem like you're lying to yourself.
Why do you keep telling me to go mtf?

I thought Radfems were horrified about androgynous gays and lesbians transitioning?

And I honestly don't want to transition. I'm not the same type of being you are and I'm fine with that. It was really just a childish desire to stay pretty.

And really, even if going all the way would fix the problems, I don't see why I should have to do that. I like my guy voice, I like androgyny, I like the way I look in guy clothes; I don't see why I should have to give all of that up for the sake of fitting in. I don't see why you think becoming mtf could be a possible improvement.

I would have thought you of all people would understand.

>>6799582
>I mean dykes/rads want to lobby for a law that would ban the mistaking of butches for men

So let me get this straight.

Trannies forcing society to call them their gender = gener terrorism/male entitlement/spooky

Radfems legally forcing people to call them their gender = just

I somehow lost more respect for them.

>>6772273
>lived as men so have experienced how most modern first world feminists just want to shit on males
>if they pass now know that female privilege exists from everyone being nice to you
>know first hand how important gender roles are and how distressing it is when they're disrupted
>feminists do nothing but shine a spotlight on trans people to use them as another pet issue which literally makes it worse being trans as now everyone is on egg shells around them when they'd rather stealth through life

>>6800254
>if they pass now know that female privilege exists from everyone being nice to you

But, but, muh benevolent sexism!!!

>>6799370
>conservatives already think they're pervs and can't actually tell us apart

They actually can.

>>6799582

>it's a crossdresser!

You didn't read the article. She's on drugs like you are. She's going to get GRS. She's referred to with "she" as a pronoun by a friend. She's a mtf reported as a crossdresser, that doesn't really make her *just* a crossdresser.

> Butch women complaining en mass
>en mass

Nope.

>one person throwing a comment about what mtfs should do is wanting to lobby for a specific law

This is why you're Don Quixote Femboy.

>>6799962

I keep thinking you're mtf because you ALWAYS post like this about women's issues. Not just bathrooms, either! Any time radfems or feminism comes up, you're here. You come off as a bitter mtf who is in denial.

>>6799692

It LITERALLY does not matter because a brain scan is not required for transition. It has no bearing on an individual's transition, it just makes everyone feel better that being trans is not a result of mental illness or trauma.

>>6799477

>Because the government was giving trans health care already

Besides the transadvocate, what is the source that says the government funded transition before 1980?

>>6800707
>Besides one of the only places that traces this information because it's relatively new and feminists have literally controlled the narrative for over half a century

>The University of Texas Medical Branch (UTMB) began seeing trans clients in the 1960s and developed a trans care program in the early 1970s. Dr. Cole was a resident in 1975 and I briefly interviewed him for this story. He was aware of indigent trans people being served in the early days of that program. “I believe that they did the lab and medical work that way.” He noted that for some of the early patients, their surgical costs were covered. “Some of those surgeries were totally covered.” I also interviewed Dr. Meyer, a founder of the UTMB trans program and past president of WPATH. He too noted that indigent trans clients were served. “I remember one particular patient who was on Medicare and that patient was approved for genital surgery.”

You're asserting that the government looked into the costs and ethics of trans health care without impetus; it was already ongoing and the study was to see if it was worth continuing. The two provided

Unless you're asserting that the people interviewed are lying, and that all public records regarding this are forgeries because "the transadvocate isn't as reliable as Gender Trender!" or some shit. Trans people were allowed to fucking transition in the middle ages you daft cunt. Feminists are a pox upon humanity and should be sent to ovens. The only problem is that volumes of human fat that high have a chance of burning down the entire concentration camp.

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>>6800707
>They actually can.
lol ok

>>6773586
Misogyny mainly. Used to be that only boys were educated in science at all.

>>6773824
>feet
>hands
>ribs
>shoulders
>neck
>skull
Are you literally IQ <70 retarded? All of these things are sexually dimorphic. Shoulders and ribs, for fuck sake, are the reason so many trans women don't pass.

>>6800836
>source: transadvocate

Ok.

>feminists have literally controlled the narrative for over half a century

Ha! Wow, dude, that is a massive joke.

Anyway, the point is 1) a single sentence by Raymond does not make her ultimately responsible for the government's choices 2) smearing feminists as genociders and not the government is just absurd 3) the very idea they all committed mass suicide over the years, and idk, WAIT like Jenner did is also pretty far-fetched. It's funny that mtfs' persecution complex begins and ends with feminists.

>cunt

Nice misogyny

> Feminists are a pox upon humanity and should be sent to ovens. The only problem is that volumes of human fat that high have a chance of burning down the entire concentration camp.

And see, all I want is legal sex change to end. No one gets to change the m to f on their papers. But you've got to drum up genocide charges and that feminists should be killed. I'm not even a feminist.

>Trans people were allowed to fucking transition in the middle ages

Lucky them, women were being burned as witches.

>>6800915

>implying someone can't tell the difference between someone on hormones and someone not on hormones
>implying the conservative movement isn't well aware of LGBT in-fighting
>implying some crossdressers aren't conservative
>etc

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>>6801580
> I want is legal sex change to end. No one gets to change the m to f on their papers.
why? Doesn't that just lead to something like with that femboy?

>>6801580
>Lucky them, women were being burned as witches.

As a historian I'd just like to interject for a moment, witch hunts WERE NOT REALLY A THING in the Middle Ages. That's a huge misunderstanding of the era and I guess a common misconception. Many countries outright banned it during the Middle Ages and even the Church was officially skeptical that witch hunts were anything more than a silly superstitious waste of time.

Witch hunts as you're thinking of them didn't really begin until the early modern era, and the religious ideas used to justify them hadn't really come to fruition until the late middle ages. Furthermore, men were nearly as commonly accused of being witches and executed as women.

That being said, I'm not really sure about the other anon's claim that people were transitioning in the middle ages. I've seen stuff that suggests it might have happened in very isolated incidents, but it wasn't really a widespread thing at all as far as I know.

>>6802404
I'm not suggesting it was widespread. It was rare, but if it happened, it happened. They were just considered hermaphrodites, because women were literally considered men and not a second sex. Stories of women getting hurt and sent to the hospital and it just happened their "penis fell out their vagina and they had a penis now" which was just perplexing but whatever. Women were literally considered as having a penis that was simply inverted due to being born shitty.

You as a historian probably know that, and TERFnon—being an insane TERF with no education—probably thinks the two-sex model is the only thing that's ever existed and the patriarchal cabal wants to kill all lesbians by raping the Platonic Ideal of womanhood with trans people existing.

But yeah, I think we're past the point of taking this TERF as a troll. I really wonder how TERFs get on here. They're sub-human in that they literally have to be retarded to even believe in that stuff. Probably don't even realize they're just reiterating Freud over and over like idiots.

>>6802463
>women were literally considered men

yeah, no

you're obviously just making shit up at this point.

do yourself a favor and stop while you're ahead.

>>6802551
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_sex_two_sex_theory

The "vagina" was literally considered an inverted penis. Not "like" one. Literally a penis. It's why the human race are all "man", you uneducated TERF.

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>>6800707
>They actually can.
Given all the butches kicked out of female spaces, arrested even, nah and you know it.
>You didn't read the article
I'm quoting the journalist, not hearsay. Take it up with them. And at any rate I won't call a giant violent ape a woman and he got sent to prison and the other inmates surely destroyed him so would'ves are hypothetical.

>Nope.
Whole thread says otherwise, getting mistaken for men is V common with aging lesbians, or so they say.
>one person throwing a comment about what mtfs should do
You mean asking for a law making it a crime to misgender lesbians. And it comes up a lot and seeing that it's one of the more politically active sites, yea. I'd say some serious irony is involved.
> Not just bathrooms
Wasn't talking about bathrooms, asides from the radfem campaign in washington stalking women in them.

What I take issue with is a political movement touching off a frenzy about queers raping kids and women. It's probably going to end the lgbt community in the south.
>You come off as a bitter mtf who is in denial.
You realize there are a lot of gay males who are critical of radical feminism nowadays. Are you gonna go ahead and call them trannies in denial too?

>>6801580
>>6800707
>Don Quixote Femboy.
Keep doing that and I'll take that for a trip
>I'm not even a feminist
Are you a man then? Explain it?

>>6802656
>The rape of women is a non-issue
This is why deluded males and privileged homosexual men come off as jokes to mainstream society. Women have fought for equal treatment, but it's too awful to possibly imagine a world where women are allowed to use the restroom safely—trannies have to be allowed to stalk women.

There's literally zero proof of rad fems doing anything you're accusing them of. Not stalking OTHER ACTUAL WOMEN into bathrooms, and not retarded "genocide". The government probably shouldn't be funding male self-mutilation, but feminists aren't some powerful cabal with the power to actually change anything like that.

I can understand that a gay male like yourself would "protect" other gay males that threaten women's spaces, but it simply proves the point in the OP. Gay males have always had more visibility and more political capital than lesbians, because women are still treated like shit and aren't even allowed TO shit in peace. It sure is coincidental that when a "transwoman" uses the bathroom and goes to jail they're just a "giant violent ape", but there's no news otherwise.

>>6802790
Uh, lesbians getting thrown out by other women. And yeah, the Washington feminists harrasing wen in restrooms

>>6802807
Sounds like an isolated case in no way representative of feminism, or radical feminism. Meanwhile we have stories from all over the country about trans abominations forcing themselves into women's spaces.

If you can't understand why women don't want a man in their bathroom, then you're literally part of the problem.

>>6802819
I absolutely do understand why women don't want a man in the bathroom. I, a trans woman, do not want to share a bathroom with men, and that includes people I perceive to be men, regardless of how they identify. obviously how people perceive you matters a lot.

>>6801580
>all I want is legal sex change to end
in other words you think passing trans people should be forcibly outed any time we have to present our ID. yeah, that's totally going to bring an end to patriarchy lel.

good luck abolishing gender while colluding with rabid, reactionary homophobes, though, radanon.

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>>6802819
More like it's happening all over the country. You just need to pick any of the lesbians arrested/kicked out stories. Meanwhile the trans bathroom thing is non news in most of the country, and it's all old hons anyhow.

But seriously though, even if you are a cis woman, if you look like s hon and you're still barging into women's spaces and making women frightened, then that's pretty inconsiderate.

All those lesbians complaining about women not wanting them in and falling about arguing, they really are inconsiderate to those poor frightened women.

You shouldn't barge into the women's if you look like an obvious man, period. Dykes should follow that rule too.

>>6802790
You're deluding yourself. Every violence against women group and law enforcement group contradicts you.
Trans aren't stalking or attacking women they say. Certainly not any more than you are. http://4vawa.org/

>>6804293
forcing more people to experience being treated as the opposite gender is only a plus in my book tbqh. bathroom hysteria for the ftw