>everyone in the world said "transsexual" >out

>>6722230
What's the difference between transgender and transsexual this confuses me

>>6722239
Transsexual implies surgery, which not all trans people go for.

>>6722239
Transexual and transgender have always been two separate medical terms. Transexuals have had at least one surgery to aid in their transition. Transgender is the initial diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder, and can refer to any point on the transition timeline. People started using "trans" because it's shorter than transgender and still encompasses both meanings.

>>6722244
>>6722257
Oh, okay thank you.

>>6722257
>People started using "trans" because it's shorter than transgender and still encompasses both meanings.

The public is never that pragmatic and sensitive about this kind of thing. I assume there was some kind of public lobby involved, like when Jesse Jackson popularized the term "African-American".

>>6722277
There wasn't. People started using it heavily on the internet and in academia and it just caught on with the public. The last time there was any serious lobbying involving transgender and transexual individuals was in the 90s when they tried to change LGBT's order (then, GLTB) to be ordered from most oppressed and least visible to least oppressed and most visible, making it TBLG, but that didn't pick up steam. The common term at the time then was Transexual.

>>6722291
That's interesting.

I think its just easier to say...

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>>6722291
"lesbians r oppressed because there womyn >:("
>tfw

>>6722230
The PC police got us.
>transsexual implies only two genders
>mtf or ftm
>but according to SJWs the gender binary doesn't real
so they rewrote our language to push their political agenda

>>6722307
This was in the 90s when it was being proposed, and most of the people lobbying grew up in the 50s.

>>6722313
That's sort of the reason it continued, but not really the reason it started. When they added the * is when it went downhill, but it was just shorthand at one point.

>>6722315
Oh, okay that makes much more sense.

>>6722325
The feminism movement in the 90s is actually why it's LGBT now and not GLBT. You can tell that's about when it started going downhill. A lot of that era of feminists DID do a lot of good and came from harsh starts, but once they got their equality, they started wanting more. They placed themselves at the start of LGBT despite knowing that they were (at the time) the second least oppressed of the minority sexuality and gender groups.

>>6722257
>>6722244
This is incorrect

Cisgender is someone who identifies (sees themselves as or lives as) as the gender they were born as.

Transgender is someone who does not identify (sees themselves as or lives as) as the gender they were born as.

A transsexual is the most common type of transgender person. Specifically, someone who identifies as and transitions to be closer to the opposite of their birth sex. This does not necessarily mean surgery.

>>6722479
I'll agree that this is what the modern word has sort of morphed into, but that is not the original clinical definition.

>>6722494
That's because the original definition was based on a limited understanding. Psychologists needed a term to classify people who try to appear as the opposite sex, and to them this meant surgery.

If you ask the average person what a transsexual is, they will say someone who has surgery to get the opposite sex. It's because the surgery part is what sticks out in people's mind. The modern meaning is truer to what the original meaning was created for.

>>6722313
This is literally one of my least favorite things about the PC police and SJWs. They've literally stolen trans self-actualization away from people who go through actual dysphoria and actual suffering, because "Gender is a spectrum!" and "Trans* identity is all about eschewing hetero-hegemonic gender roles!".

They've made transtrenders into the "real" trans people and anyone who thinks you NEED dysphoria and that there's some sort of innate, biological reason for being trans and that it isn't a choice is a regressive, self-hating, transmisogynistic agent of the patriarchy.

We really need to do something about this.

Lazy people who abbreviate everything, ie the modern public?

>>6723408
What can we do? We are really very powerless.

>>6723451
Being .3% of the population does that, I suppose. SJWs and transtrenders outnumber us by insane margins, and that's why they get to tell us who we are, how we are, what we believe, and whether or not our dysphoria is real. We have no way to fight this even if every trans person who disliked SJWism banded together.

My only thought is trying to get some popular alt-right bloggers since that's "in" right now, but the problem is people who actually get big are the legit self-hating and derogatory types like Blair and Milo.

>>6723408
Femgen is living proof that you're wrong about this "transtrender" bullshit. They don't want tits or SRS nor do they want to be men.

I'm pretty sure transgender is just an umbrella term/spectrum.

>>6723520
>Because Femgen exists, SJWs don't exist!
I've seen and heard in person "trans*" people arguing that being trans shouldn't be seen as a medical issue, because gender is a social construct. You do understand this means HRT would go uncovered, right? SJWs literally fight against trans rights. They are trenders.

Not only that, I have zero idea what a bunch of gay twinks has to do with trans people at all. Does Femgen claim to be trans? They explicitly do not. What is a femguy/femboy?: "An androgynous male with feminine and soft features. Mostly gay, but not all."

Femgen has literally nothing to do with trans issues. They supplement themselves with HRT for their own purposes. They do not go out and advocate for things that actively oppose actual trans rights, nor do they mindlessly support ideologies as a monolith that, a few decades ago, accused trans people of "raping the concept of womanhood itself".

kys

>>6722313
>but according to SJWs the gender binary doesn't real
I think you mean
>according to modern medical and biological science the gender binary doesn't real
Your high school health class curriculum was based on research and propaganda from the early 70s. You really shouldn't be relying on it.

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>>6723679
Where on the spectrum are you?

I went to the doctor the other day and they told me my Manpoints were a little high in my blood test, at 43.92 millimales. Luckily, my Womanpoints were a lot higher at 748.22 milligrills. Right now I'm about an 87/234 on the Gendometer readings. The doctor prescribed me an LGBTQAA+ blogging regimen in order to get the proper ratio and spectrum placement.

It's amazing what science can do.

>>6723712
Meme all you want but it doesn't change the truth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001669.htm
http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex

>>6723751
>Confusing intersex with the gender binary
The vast majority of intersex people end up living as one gender or another. Many don't even know they're intersex.

Most people are born A, or B. The fact that some people get born fucked up, physically, mentally, or both, and proceed to try and live as A or B, does literally nothing for the argument that "medical science has disproven gender binary!". In fact, it only further reinforces the fact that people who aren't trenders have a biological need to live in certain manners, as either A or B.

At this point I'm convinced you're either a hardcore lesbian TERF or a self-hating and mentally dimwitted "trans" girl.

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>>6723712
You should go lie down. I think you hit your head.

>>6723777
>In fact, it only further reinforces the fact that people who aren't trenders have a biological need to live in certain manners, as either A or B.
It's not a biological need. It's a social need, imposed by people like you.

By the way I have no idea what you're trying to argue since you didn't say anything to disprove the fact that gender, just like everything else in biology, is not a fucking binary.

>>6723777
Also,
>In the past, the prevailing opinion was that it was generally best to assign a gender as quickly as possible. This was often based on the external genitals rather than the chromosomal gender. Parents were told to have no ambiguity in their minds as to the gender of the child. Prompt surgery was often recommended. Ovarian or testicular tissue from the other gender would be removed. In general, it was considered easier to reconstruct female genitalia than functioning male genitalia, so if the "correct" choice was not clear, the child was often assigned to be a girl.

Basically, these people were forced into gender roles at birth, and their parents were taught that it was vitally important to the health of their child that they ensure their child fits perfectly into one side of the binary.

You don't see anyone arguing that the popularity of infant circumcision means that foreskins don't exist. That's what you're trying to say is the case.

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>>6723804
>Intersex
>Gender binary
You're conflating things. Being intersex has nothing to do with gender binaries. Do I actually have to point out to you that sex =/= gender?

Regardless, where the fuck do you think gender roles come from? "Society"? What's society? A mass of living "social matter", made without biological tissue? Where do gender roles come from? Meteorites? The Patriarchy?

Are you unironically asserting there's no biological reason for social assertions? Social constructs are constructed by biological lifeforms you daft cunt. So trans people don't have any biological need to transition? It's just social impetus! Those with gender dysphoria just need to realize that there's no innate reason for their feelings; it's a choice, a performance, and identity. If only society would change, then no one would need to transition. Gender is a spectrum, and every individual is their own individual gender—transition is a tool of the patriarchy used to stop the genderspecial revolution.

>>6723834
You really aren't getting this are you?
> Being intersex has nothing to do with gender binaries. Do I actually have to point out to you that sex =/= gender?
When people say "gender binary" they're referring to sex, not gender. It's stupid and makes no sense, but it's how it is because nobody sat down and clarified the language for these kinds of topics.

>Regardless, where the fuck do you think gender roles come from?
From history and culture, and if you really don't understand how those work then I'm not going to take the time to try and explain it to you because it's too complex of a concept for an Indonesian pictograph tablet. Which are probably not old enough to be on if you need an explanation on the inner workings of culture and history.

>Are you unironically asserting there's no biological reason for social assertions?
For some of them, yes. For some of them, no. There is no biological reason for Christmas. There is no biological reason for pink being a feminine color. There is no biological reason for pledging allegiance to the flag every schoolday in the US. There is no biological reason for the existence of art.
There IS however, a biological reason for intersex people, and there is a biological reason for Gender Identity Disorder.

Also before you try and claim that "gender roles are based on biological reasons cuz muh stone-age hunter-gatherer theories" try to keep in mind that we have NO knowledge at all about prehistoric society and culture. We know they existed. We know what technologies that had access to. We can guess and imagine at tiny fragments of their culture based on shit like pottery shards and phrenology, but we have no proof or even reliable evidence about the origin of gender roles. All we have is speculation.

>>6723854
>There is no biological reason for Christmas
>This is comparable to gender
Look, fine, let's pull back the memes and be more civil. OBVIOUSLY historical events and beliefs are important in cultural mores of our day, but these DO arise from biology.

For example, people have a biological need to be social. People need to feel safe, and part of a community. Society was created because people are a reflection of their biology and biological needs. People have social reactions and aversions, just as they would against foreign bodies with their immune system. Is this good? No, not necessarily, but it exists. Is there a "hate gay people gene"? Only insofar as there is a "fear of the unknown" in people's biology. Safety can be found in one's tribe, whatever that is, and those outside cannot be necessarily seen as friendly, and as such are often taken as enemies. Historicultural development and progression to acceptance and unacceptance of certain peoples and groups can, from afar, be seen as majority tribes coming into contact with minority tribes, conflict being worked out, until things either get genocidal or acceptance occurs. In the modern day and age, people have evolved a literal and figurative tolerance, allowing for more tenuous social relationships. Tribes, governments, religions, etc, all stem from the basic human need in most people to socialize and create a strong unit of people with whom one can feel safe—a "safe space" which people will at times violently defend. Many theological scholars can actually derive the mundane reasonings for many things in religions: many "banned" things were literal poisonous foods that people deemed "evil", and similarly abnormal behavior or behavior not within general tribal mores causes outliers to be labeled as evil as well—enemies allow social groups to become closer against a common enemy.

All this to say: gender is not a social construct. Nothing is, ultimately.

>>6723869
If gender is a literal social construct, here's how that plays out and IS playing out.

There is no biological reason for gender roles, they are a social construct. What we call a "man" or a "woman" has no bearing on anything aside from the literal chromosomes, which should not matter in any way whatsoever. If we see things clearly, we cannot assume anyone to have any specific gender or sex, especially since one is socially constructed and can be thrown aside, and the other has no bearing on social reality. Anything that can possibly be construed as one sex leaning towards certain modes of thought or action on average is just an example of negative social programming, which must come from somewhere, and as such must be an active and malevolent force (i.e. patriarchy). Instead, our social lives are a performance, as is our gender identity. In a perfect world, we may perform in any way we wish, and without negative social programming, there is no reason or impetus for anyone to be unhappy with their gender performance as they may perform in any manner of their choosing.

Now, if gender is a social construct in totality, then what use the concept of gender? A world of post-scarcity gender is one without gender; if everyone has their own gender, then no one does (see: Incredibles).

However, this does not jive with reality, as gender dysphoria is very real. What are the symptoms? How do most trans people know they are trans?

>I hate looking like X, I wish I looked like Y
Gender is a social construct and biology is socially irrelevant; this is impossible
>I've always acted more like X than Y
Gender is a social construct and biology is socially irrelevant; this is impossible
>I just can't describe it, but I feel like X, not Y
Gender is a social construct and biology is socially irrelevant; this is impossible

>>6723869
>gender is not a social construct
Correct.
Gender roles are a social construct though, just like holidays, art, religion, government, culture, and even shit like the concept of time.
A social construct is just anything that only exists as an idea that is held by a society.

So while gender does tangibly exist as a result of biology, and even has tangible impact on behavior to some extent, it is not to the extreme that people often perceive it to be.
Gender does not neatly fit into a binary, because life is messy and breaks the rules constantly, and if it didn't it wouldn't be life. The gender binary is a social construct, as are the ideas of male and female.
Also, the idea that women are more social than men, or that men are stoic and less emotional, these are social constructs, and they've actually been found to run contrary to biology(Specifically, men and women have an equal need for social interaction, but men have been shown to talk more frequently than women while socializing. Men have also been shown to be just as emotionally sensitive as women, it's just that testosterone inhibits crying and men are raised to be emotionally stunted as a result of their gender roles.)

So basically a great deal of what you accept to be the biological reality of gender is actually just a culture-wide case of confirmation bias. Our society has never before taken the time to actually question and study and objectively define things like gender and sexuality until this century. Until now, we've collectively assumed ourselves to be correct because nobody has ever asked why.
There was a time period where spontaneous generation was widely believed and accepted simply because nobody had ever disproven it yet.

You only think gender is binary because you were raised in a culture that assume that to be the case.
If you were Bugis, you would believe that the existence of 5 genders was an obvious biological fact.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_in_Bugis_society

>>6723907
>It's an "everything is a social construct" episode
Literally explain gender dysphoria's existence in contrast to the fact that it would make no sense unless the main impetus was society, when anyone who has ever experienced gender dysphoria can tell you it's not. "Society is mean to me" is not a reason for a 50% suicide rate. Jews in the Holocaust and slaves in the 1800s did not have a suicide rate that high.

If life is so messy, then how can you throw a universal standard at "art, religion, government, culture, and the literal concept of time"? Cultural relativism doesn't mean shit. Bugis tribal beliefs don't affect the metaphysicality of the universe, and neither does the belief that time is a human conception. Human PERCEPTION of time, sure, but time itself? Why? Because some tribes were too backwards to ever develop the notion of it?

The universe still runs whether or not you're there to tell it that it's just "chronological performativity". You've drunk the Critical Theory kool-aid so hard you don't even seem to grasp the fact that saying "everything is a social construct" is literally meaningless. It's meaningless. It has no basis in anything. "Society did it". Why? "Society did it".

Meaningless. You arbitrate on supposed facts yet your arbitration relies on everything being universally arbitrary. Perhaps your belief in social construction is confirmation bias.

>>6723915
>Bugis tribal beliefs don't affect the metaphysicality of the universe
and neither do yours. That's the detail you can't seem to understand.

>>6723922
See, the difference is I'm asserting something due to collective experience (gender dysphoria), and you are going "you can't know that, you can't know anything, you can't even know you can't know anything". No, my beliefs don't affect anything; they are simply attempts to best understand the world.

Exactly how is "Assertion X due to Y" being countered with "No it's not!" mean anything? How can you honestly assert that gender has NO connection to biology, and I have as much claim as some primitive tribe because no system of belief can describe anything, but YOUR system of belief can arbitrate this fact? Critical Theoretics is based on sophistry of the highest order, and your argumentation makes that all too apparent.

Again, where does Gender Dysphoria come from? You never answer this. Sex is socially constructed. Gender is socially constructed. In a post-social construction world, there are thereby no people with gender dysphoria. It is not biological, then. Biological chronic depression over something that only exists in the milieu of society-at-large is LITERALLY impossible; at best it would then be a socially-developed psychosis.

If a trans person grew up on an island without any notion of gender, without even seeing another human being, they would still be trans. Unless you argue, literally, that being trans itself is a social construct, then you have no argument. If you do argue that it's a biological imperative, then you're an idiot who doesn't understand why that would imply gender is biological in part. Or your argument is trans people don't exist and you're exactly the kind of disingenuous vile TERF who's been actively trying to genocide and oppress the tiny group of people who don't conform to your worldview.

>>6723938
OH MY GOD
DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE FUCKING DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A GENDER AND A GENDER ROLE IS?
DO
YOU
FUCKING
KNOW?

CAN
YOU
FUCKING
READ?

>>6723945

Let me quote you >>6723907 "Gender does not neatly fit into a binary, because life is messy and breaks the rules constantly, and if it didn't it wouldn't be life. The gender binary is a social construct, as are the ideas of male and female."

Would you kindly explain the existence of gender dysphoria in a world where the ideas of male and female are a social construct? In what way should it exhibit itself?

>I hate looking like X, I wish I looked like Y
Gender is a social construct and biology is socially irrelevant; this is impossible
>I've always acted more like X than Y
Gender is a social construct and biology is socially irrelevant; this is impossible
>I just can't describe it, but I feel like X, not Y
Gender is a social construct and biology is socially irrelevant; this is impossible

Taking your philosophy to its final end, and taking the question as though we lived in a world where people have seen past the social construction and have fully deconstructed the ideas of male, female, gender binaries, etc, how does gender dysphoria exist? Literally how?

Why couldn't you just tell them "person, life is messy, you don't NEED HRT, you can just, like, live as yourself!"? Why would there be any need for a social or medical transition in a world where there is no social conception of anything relating to this?

>inb4 smug all caps that dodges the question with sarcasm and tells me to "educate myself omg i can't even right now"

>>6722230
I dislike transsexual because it makes people think it's a sexuality, like homosexual or heterosexual

Trans or transgender are better

>>6723952
>the ideas of male and female are a social construct
I didn't mean that penises and vaginas are social constructs. I meant that the idea that they are opposites and that sex is a duality where you go through a list of characteristics and choose between option M or option F is a social construct.

Besides, it doesn't matter WHERE gender and gender roles and gender dysphoria come from.
The mind, and especially the subconscious, is not rational, and something like gender dysphoria can't be cured with logic or reason because your subconcious doesn't fucking care about logic or reason.

>>6723978
>Besides, it doesn't matter WHERE gender and gender roles and gender dysphoria come from.
I'm asking HOW it comes from where it comes from.

>the concept of time is a social construct
>the concept of gender is a social construct
>the concept of men and women is a social construct
>somehow, have an innate want to kill yourself for being a man/woman, despite men and women not existing, and wanting to be a woman/man, even though they don't exist, and thinking acting more like a woman/man might signal that you have dysphoria about a thing that doesn't exist outside the COLLECTIVE minds of society and can't even be perceived or known from an individual standpoint, despite the fact individuals make up society, so no one knows anything, except that we know that you can't know because logic and reason go against the way the brain works, which we know with our brains, despite our brains being irrational and not knowing things, even though the concept of knowing is a social construct

And yeah, I don't think you need to have certain character types. It's POSSIBLE, but unlikely, to be trans and exhibit literally zero social traits of the gender you identify with. But at the end of the day, it's the option between M or F that's important, not the characteristics. The roles are constructed, sure, you don't need to conform to personality shit, but the dysphoria comes from somewhere, and is targeted. That's how it works.

Gender dysphoria can't be cured, but it can be observed, and medicated. "Logic and reason" come after, where we go "hm, it seems like certain portions of the population have an innate biological schism to do with sex and gender; perhaps these things are more than social constructs after all!".

Or we can just go "UHHHHHHH IT DOESN'T MATTER WHERE IT COMES FROM, IT'S A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT, BUT ALSO BIOLOGY, AND, YOU KNOW, THE BRAIN IS A MYSTERIOUS THING, SO IT CAN GO AGAINST THINGS BEING A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT AND THOSE THINGS CAN STILL BE SOCIAL CONSTRUCTS"

>>6722244
It doesn't and never has.

For one the original meaning of transgender was about surgery. Nonop transsexuals have always been a thing, no matter how much the HBS hons pretend otherwise.

Now they're mostly synonymous.

>>6722277
>I know nothing about how language works

>>6722494
The original clinical definition is what I posted here
>>6724019

Transgender in Harry Benjamin and co's notes is how they called the medical part of transition (e.g. transgender surgeries).

>>6724022
That may be what it meant in the past, but today trans or transgender is an umbrella term for a multitude of different things, whereas transsexual is almost specifically used to refer to surgical transition or older transwomen.

>>6724039
>whereas transsexual is almost specifically used to refer to surgical transition
Not really, there are still people who use it who are nonop. It also doesn't really change the thing where it wasn't its past meaning while someone is making a claim about its past meaning.

The surgery implications are really not that strong.

>>6722230
Generally for me and other trans people I know. We don't like to be called transexuals because that has been used as a term for trans people in porn. We generally do not like to be associated with a porn name.

>>6722230
because its easier to say trans then transsseexual

>>6722230
A dedicated group of meme magicians.

>>6723417
>the modern public
>modern
Whoa whoa whoa whoa, this isn't a recent phenomenon. Languages have always changed to make words easier to say over time.

We used to pronounce the K in knight, but people slowly stopped doing that because it was easier to just skip it. (There's a reason they dropped the K and not the N by the way, look up sonority sequencing if you're curious. It's tangible proof that language has hard systematic rules. Okay you can throw me in a locker now)

It's how Latin developed into Italian and Spanish over time; enough people started shortening words and morphemes that the shortened forms became the norm and the original forms were forgotten. Every word in English you think is correct was once 'wrong' in the eyes of most people.

>>6722244
the SJWs think that transsexual is an offensive term.
i got yelled at for calling myself one

>>6722230
>people used to say O.K.
>now everyone says ok

WHO IS BEHIND THIS CONSPIRACY? THE JEWS? THE GAYS?

Words change. Sometimes there is no calculated agenda behind it, you dumb faggot.

>>6722307
Are you going to deny that lesbians are less visible than gay men?

>literal mistakes are a separate gender guys trust me
Being intersex is a medical condition you idiots

So here's the deal. The Latin prefix "trans" literally means "across" or "opposite side" (it can also mean "beyond" but that's unimportant here.)

Traditionally "transsexual" was used because it implied the person was "crossing over" to a different sex, and it matched other terms such as "homosexual" or "bisexual".

The push for the adoption of the word "transgender" came to better represent the people whom it described. "Transgender" was meant to mean the person's gender was on the "opposite side" of their sex. The most notable difference is this definition does not imply the person has or intends to change anything about themselves and only describes their current state. Also, the "gender" part of the word differentiates it from other sexual orientation words.

(Also completely unrelated to this but my captcha had me select photos of grassy fields, and one of the photos was a zoomed out minecraft screenshot. >.>)

>>6723777
>The vast majority of intersex people end up living as one gender or another.

Every openly intersex person I met (one) identified as intergender.


>"medical science has disproven gender binary!"

It has never proven the gender binary to be real in the first place. Any circumstantial evidence you bring forth is going to be tinged by social forces that A) push people to identify as monogender, and B) makes non-binary people invisible or questions their validity, turning cis-heteronormativity into a self-fulfilling prophecy, where everyone who confirms to your preconceptions is normal, and everyone who doesn't is deluded or lying.

>>6724700

And those who keep it to themselves probably consider themselves normal men and women, at least psychologically. That's because if they believe the latter, they wouldn't want to spread knowledge of them being intersex.

>>6724700
What is non binary? I saw kids on reddit ranting about it when some fat fat SJW stood up in a college amphitheater and interrupted a speech just to scream about herself being 'non binary'.

What exactly does this mean? Like "I'm also a male inside?" because that seems fucking annoying and pointless and snow flakey.

>>6724735
>because that seems fucking annoying and pointless and snow flakey.

How so?

The idea that primary and secondary human sex characteristics don't neatly develop according to stereotypes across humanity, but that gender identity is the one exception and is perfectly binary for every person is patently ridiculous.

>>6724763
This

Everyone is effectively non-binary, we just insist on maintaining binary gender because it supports sexism ideology (specifically patriarchy)

>>6723561
If you're fine with people taking HRT for cosmetic reasons then that's cool. I neither want tits nor do I want to cut my dick off but at the same time I don't want to be manly. There is nonbinary dysphoria and people with it ought to deal with it how they want to. It'd be foolish to let nondysphoric people take hormones but it's their life after 18 so whatever.

>>6724666
It's a mutation imo as an intersex person, and more than a few IS people don't fall into the deep pit of self loathing that is wannabe normie IS bullshit

>>6724918
Why do people luke this come on 4chan. There's an entire website dedicated to you people. Keep your political lesbian nonsense off this board.

>>6725538
>waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh! i don't like people who disagree with me!

Go back to tumblr, faggot.

I wish i could get away with being a transmillionaire.

>>6725538
I've been browsing 4chan since my youth my views have just changed as I've done more learning

I have just as much stake in this site as you

Also >implying I'm not male

>>6726869
Not biologically

>>6725810
You can easily book a transatlantic flight.