How do FTMs reconcile being born females, and the fact that they

>>6622250
What about ftm femboys? What makes them any less legit than the average estrogen taking femboy?

>>6622250
>People who identify as men act like men
This surprises you?

>>6622250
You have misunderstood the phrase toxic masculinity. Being ultra masculine isn't inherently bad and isn't what it refers to. It refers to when conforming to masculine ideals is harmful, for example, bottling up all your emotions because men aren't supposed to be emotional.

Toxic masculinity isn't a real thing. It was made up by female suremacists.
No FtMs believe in it unless they've gone full Kool-Aid.

>>6622387
You should honestly read the post above yours. Toxic masculinity is a phrase that refers to a very real phenomenon and I dunno how you can deny its existence just because the term triggers you.

>>6622401
>being ultra masculine isn't inherently bad
They basically said that the problem wasn't masculinity itself, but bottling up emotions. That's the actual problem.

>>6622250
>Every FTM I encounter on here seems to try to posture themselves as ultra-masc and act like "meatheads" so-to-speak
Confirmed for never interacting with a legbutts ftm
5/10 b8
Every transguy here comes off as chill, low key, pothead/alcoholic.

>>6622409
Yes,and this is an aspect of masculinity. This particular aspect here is being described as "toxic" due to it being a problem. Thus, this aspect of masculinity is deemed "toxic masculinity."

How does this confuse a person?

>>6622409
>>6622538
I really hope Anon isn't thinking that the phrase "toxic masculinity" is referring to all masculinity and saying that masculinity across the board is inherently toxic. Then they would look like the wacky extremist rather than their "female supremacists."

>>6622418
>Every transguy here comes off as chill, low key, pothead/alcoholic
This is the impression I get as well. I think perhaps Anon is perceiving them as hyper-masculine because they see them as girls in roleplay. The FTMs I've seen here seem like the kind of guys I'd want as friends, partly because they aren't hypermasculine and gross.

>>6622409
It was a single example, anon. Toxic masculinity is comprised of many problems, all of which revolve around men feeling like they need to be masculine no matter the cost.

>Men can't be victims of abuse or rape
>Men are inherently violent and you're not a real man if you aren't
>Men should always be independent and never ask for help, especially a woman's help
>Men and women are so different that men can't truly understand women ever and trying to makes you a sissy

And so on.

>>6622538
>>6622548
If they were referring to the bottling of emotions, they wouldn’t call it toxic masculinity, but refer to it as bottling of emotions. I suppose I can see how being emotionless may be in some people's view of what masculinity is, but it's not the most important element at all.
They primarily use the phrase to demonize men, and I much more often hear it in reference to "male entitlement" or "testosterone rage" or whatever the fuck.

>>6622587
>Men can't be victims of abuse or rape
This is somewhat of an issue, but don't see how it relates to masculinity at all, toxic or not.
>Men are inherently violent and you're not a real man if you aren't
It's literally female supremacists who think all men are violent. They created this problem, not "toxic masculinity".
>Men should always be independent and never ask for help, especially a woman's help
That's just men having insecurities. Women have the same things going on as well. Ever heard of "strong, independent woman"?
>Men and women are so different that men can't truly understand women ever and trying to makes you a sissy
Who says empathizing with women makes you a sissy?
This seems to be a talking point that people use that I've never actually witnessed to be a problem.

>>6622636
>This is somewhat of an issue, but don't see how it relates to masculinity at all, toxic or not.
You really are a woman.

>>6622636
Well no offense intended, but I'm willing to bet your parents never told you not to cry when you got hurt as a little kid because "Boys don't cry".
Trust someone with a little more experience living as a dude, toxic masculinity is a problem.

>>6622918
Not him but everyone is told that where I come from, not just the boys. Stoicism is not a male-speficied trait of strength, and being strong and independent is expected of everyone these days. Being spineless is repulsive no matter what gender the person is.

>>6622918
As >>6622984 said, it's forced stoicism you're referring to. Perhaps this has a correlation to male socialization, but it's improper to use that as justification for using the term "toxic masculinity" rather than referring to the term for what it actually is.

>>6622984
What you are describing is not the culture I live in.

>>6623030
And what culture is that?

>>6622587
>they need to be masculine no matter the cost
so i'm a guy, not very tall, i wouldn't go up to an eight foot and and start throwing punches because i'd get my ass beat, so no, the price being my head getting rocked inside out is something i'm willing to consider. you know what the problem is? women complain about men being too masculine and then go and fuck the shit out of Arnold Schwarzenegger the next day. women love masculine men, otherwise prove me wrong and put your pussy where your mouth is.

>>6622636
toxic masculinity is a blanket term that including all of those things

it basically means "toxic parts of masculinity" or a stereotype of men in western culture. It doesn't actually imply anything about a man other than that these are stupid leaps of logic that men commonly make.

>>6623076
Except that masculinity is still toxic when men act on it, becoming toxic actions.

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>>6622250
>a grotesque caricature of "toxic masculinity"

I've only ever seen lesbians uniformly try to portray some kind of over aggressive fake alpha male personality.
Ftms have a broader range of personalities in my experience, i've met frat boy type ftms, body builder buck angel types,feminist cucks(youtube ftms), femboy girly types, ftms in alternative scenes; metalheads,punks,stoners, meek beta male ftms, guys with louder, bigger personalities

but, i've been a part of the ftm community in some way for at least 6 years
and the only ftms i've seen that act like wifebeaters recently released from prison have been former butch lesbians

>>6623076
You mean all of those things that I debunked for the most part, with not much solid argument to the contrary?
As I've said before, the concept of toxic masculinity is almost always used in reference to a percieved "male entitlement" or the associated aggression that men are stereotyped to have by these people. Now, male crime rates are undoubtedly much higher, but I haven't seen anything yet which suggests that this is cultural. Feminism is unlikely to be able to change that fact if it isn't cultural anyway.
I believe they perpetuated these stereotypes and now are turning them into the unified idea of "toxic masculinity"--for the sake of having another problem for so-called feminists to solve.

impossible.
personalities like that require self esteem
i've never met a tranny with self esteem

>>6623300
Ultra-masc cis men are the most insecure faggots in the world.

>>6622587
>feminists say men are inherently violent and need to be taught not to rape etc.
>feminists think male privilege means a man should shut up when she is talking
>feminism's "listen and believe"
>#killallmen and #masculinitysofragile

>>6622386
you act like men don't express any emotions. this isn't the case, just because they don't express them as readily or as openly as women.

>>6622600
As an ftm, the bottling up part comes naturally with testosterone, I feel.
During HRT I went from a crybaby to a block of ice in the span of 4 years.

>>6622984
This is very uncommon around here in Germany. Girls are mostly told that it's okay to show their emotions and normal to let them out, while boys get a "stop crying little sissy-princess" and laughed at.

>>6622250
Dysphoria makes any kind of masculinity inherently a positive experience for an ftm. So even though I never met any like you described, the reason and how to reconcile are very, very simple to figure out.

>>6623865
German too.
I can confirm that.

Also have a sister so I could see well how different people react when I as a boy cry or she as a girl.

>>6623856
Seriously. When i got on T i just stopped crying. When i feel sad i just get angry. But i get over it quicker. I feel incapable of crying now.

>>6622918

i'm a transguy, and actually when i was a kid got hurt or was upset i was told shit like "only sissies cry" or i'd get hit (usually repeatedly) for crying cuz "i'll give you something to cry about" and being upset or annoyed by anything after about 5 minutes of it happening (or immediately after depends, and an "i'm sorry" meant everything needed to be negated... obligation to accept apologies and not feeling anything was mandatory) as a result i've become an adult who has a really hard time with shit like crying and my own emotions... that's not some cis guy exclusive experience...

as for the other shit, i'm not particularly masculine... some transguys are, but that's just them... there's widely varied personalities in groups of people...

>>6622265
>need to be a meathead to be a man

>>6623901
My sister got away with all that stuff too, not because she was a girl but because she was pretty. If you want to se abuse, see how people treat ugly girls.

>>6622250
I've been on this board for years (unfortunately) and literally have never come across what you're describing in FtMs. Seriously, you're delusional if you believe in this "toxic masculinity."

>>6622250
>OP hasn't known FTMs for long

most go through this initial phase of trying out the gender roles and where the social boundaries are.

however most grow out of it like any adolescent and become reasonable chill men with nothing to prove later in life.

but yeah, babytranguys are typically assholes because learned associations of what masculinity means.

>>6622984
>Not him but everyone is told that where I come from, not just the boys
And where do you come from? Because I come from Europe and I know a lot of other Europeans and that was never the experience of me or any other AMAB. Hell, my parents would slap me on the head if I hit a girl as a kid nevermind my peers and every time I was told to "stop being a crybaby"

>>6622250
Fuck off already you rapist

>>6624013
>i'm a transguy, and actually when i was a kid got hurt or was upset i was told shit like "only sissies cry"
Riiiight, a biological "girl" was told by her parents not to cry because only "sissies" cry? Why do I not buy that for a moment. Maybe because to be a sissy is to be girly/feminine meaning it's really only considered an insult, for better or for worse, for a man but a girl is already a "sissy" by definition.

You're either lying or you had seriously abusive parents.

>>6624577
Europe is not a country you dunce. You come from an abusive home, as most agree it's not ok to hit any children of either gender, not 'just the boys' or whatever logic you're trying to convey.

>>6624594
Another biological girl here (ftm though). Why wouldn't a girl be told that? Being sissy has nothing to do with being feminine, it mean being a coward. Of course parents tell you to suck it up if you whine like a little sissy because you're afraid of 'insert random challenge/threat/work'.

>You're either lying or you had seriously abusive parents.
The guy admits being beaten by his parents, of course he comes from abusive parents. Doesn't change the fact that they treated him like that when still in girlmode.

>>6624594

so don't buy it... but you not believing the truth doesn't change the life i've had... the one you've invented for me sounds more pleasant though

cuz that's literally what i was told growing up... along with shit like "i'll give you a reason to cry" followed by being beaten... if i had to guess my parents thought of a sissy as a specific set of behaviours that they saw as unacceptable... rather than just "a girl" (my mother only had brothers, and so did her mother who was abusive in that way as well as far as i know...), and i was raised in exactly the same manner my older bro was including the shit they said (my little bro was treated better, since my father liked him best... probably cuz he was his first biological cis son) so yeah... that was a thing "don't be a sissy" and so on... but it was used in a similar manner to calling someone a pussy really...

they were extremely abusive, which i thought i was pretty clear about... shit my father once beat me (literally grabbing me by the hair dragging me across the floor and punching me) when i was like 5 or 6 cuz my little bro tripped over blocks while we were playing together and started crying... my dad decided i pushed him (he was in another room watching tv when it happened) and just attacked me for it... it was no big deal, my bro didn't even have scrapes or bruises or anything from it

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>"""toxic masculinity"""
this is the first and last thread i'll ever see on this board

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>>6625443
dammit dude

>>6624702

yeah sorta... except it was more like if being screamed and cursed at while being threatened made you cry then you were a sissy and hit for it... rather than it just being like, that behaviour that got that being quite like what you describe...

>>6625514

what? it's whatever now, shit happens...

>>6625519
:( You want a hug or something

>>6625535

lol nah i'm good, i just smoked and i'm gardening outside with my bird and s/o... it's cool... like i said shit happens, can't change it no sense in dwelling and getting upset over it...

it bothered me when i was a kid, but as an adult i can just go "well that was fucked up" and eh... i can see shit for what it was and all that you know?

>>6625558
Brooklyn? Didn't know you has a shit childhood. My sympathies. You're a pretty cool guy.

>>6625566

yeah... it's cool, really, but thanks...

>>6624594
i'm ftm and had a similar childhood experience

its common in hispanic households as well i think

>>6625620

yup... it is common with hispanics... italians too... i'm puerto rican/italian/cuban... my family being catholic made that shit extra fun... and my s/o experienced some similar shit, his mom is puerto rican... his dad's parents were from jamaica and england and his dad wasn't like that, his dad died when we were 16 though, never realized how well he kept their mom in check even though she was a psycho 'til he died...

>>6623019
...unless you're talking about gender roles. Correlations are actually a really big deal in analyzing social phenomena on a large scale.

>>6623275
>debunked
Rofl

>I haven't seen anything yet which suggests that this is cultural
Another rofl

Let's have an actual debate. As a feminist scholar I find your claims fucking ridiculous. Are you down?

>>6625491
>hears phrase
>doesn't try to understand it
>is literally triggered by words

>>6625899
Sure.