[Boards: 3 / a / aco / adv / an / asp / b / bant / biz / c / can / cgl / ck / cm / co / cock / d / diy / e / fa / fap / fit / fitlit / g / gd / gif / h / hc / his / hm / hr / i / ic / int / jp / k / lgbt / lit / m / mlp / mlpol / mo / mtv / mu / n / news / o / out / outsoc / p / po / pol / qa / qst / r / r9k / s / s4s / sci / soc / sp / spa / t / tg / toy / trash / trv / tv / u / v / vg / vint / vip / vp / vr / w / wg / wsg / wsr / x / y ] [Search | Extra juicy! | Home]

What is wrong with FtMs? Why would they want to have a hairy,

This is a blue board which means that it's for everybody (Safe For Work content only). If you see any adult content, please report it.

Thread replies: 151
Thread images: 16

File: 1440740157605.png (78KB, 249x250px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
1440740157605.png
78KB, 249x250px
What is wrong with FtMs? Why would they want to have a hairy, smelly, gross manly body when they know that they could never have a dick? I mean, the dick is the only redeemable quality of a man, and they won't even have that. So what's even the point?
>>
File: mytype.png (250KB, 390x492px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
mytype.png
250KB, 390x492px
Whats wrong with you? Why would you want to be stupid? I mean, intelligence is the only redeemable quality of a human, and you don't even have that. So what's even the point of you?
>>
I love cuntboys. I only wish more ftms wanted to be /fit/ hairy men instead of twinks.
>>
>>5061095
This tbh
>>
>>5061082
look at this manlet
>>
File: 1429456177958.jpg (139KB, 500x707px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
1429456177958.jpg
139KB, 500x707px
>>
>>5061082
*pukes in my mouth a little*
>>
>>5061156
*unshethe dick*
*telephoto behind u*
*cum in ur bp*
>>
>>5060840
I agree with you, as mtf, i don't even understand them

and goddammit they are privileged
>>
One of the great sadnesses of our respective conditions is that we must mourn what the other throws away with glee, and do away with, in high spirits, what the other can never achieve.
>>
>>5061173
you agree with yourself?

of course a mtf made this thread.
>>
>>5061173
Shut up, you sexist pos. You're the reason ppl think trans ppl are retarded.
>>
>>5061198
OP here, I'm not even MtF, just some twink who thinks life would be better if I were a woman. But I'm not going to be a tranny.
>>
>>5060840
>the dick is the only redeemable quality of a man, and they won't even have that. So what's even the point?
Are you me?
>>
>>5061235
Here we have one of the larval stages of the trans woman.

As you can see, it is so deep in self-hated about the state of its shell that it incapable even of conceiving how others could care about or just fail to detest such a form, and speaks longingly of how it wishes to be a woman.

And, too, it believes that, being a member of a species that does not naturally metamorphose, it should never do such a thing artificially, despite that artifice is in the very nature of its species! This, too, stems from its almost limitless reserves of self-hatred.
>>
>>5061388
Yep. Pretty much.

I'm getting sick of all these half passing, self hating mtf's making post after post about how much they detest ftm's. I honesty think it's because we pass after like two months of T. I've passed for years and just started hormones four months ago.
>>
>>5061443
Yeah, you are privileged special snowflakes who willingly reject something that mtfs go through hell to get a tiny glimpse of.
Give us one reason why we shouldn't hate you.
>>
>>5061455
Couldn't the same be said for you? Talking in circles and making zero sense. Lol this board has made me realize how delusional you lot can be. I'm glad I can be male. A lot of us aren't special snowflakes either. I blend in, no one knows I'm trans cause I'm not some six foot man in tights and a school girl outfit like most of you.
>>
>>5061466
no, because we aren't privileged with passing and less social stigma
>>
>>5061466
don't get too cocky, cuntboi
>>
>>5060840
The ones who actually pass as cute twinks are great.. literally the ONLY down-side is the lack of penis. The problem is, the overwhelming majority either do look like twinks because they're pudgy dykes who *THINK* taking testosterone makes them men(even though they just look like even more mannish bulldykes) or they start going bald when they transition. If i was a FtM and i started losing my hair when i took the hormones, id prob. stop and just continue living as a woman.... but then i'm a white cis gay male, so i'm not really in the proper mindset to make that call... I already won the game of life :D
>>
>>5061468
That doesn't mean you have to hate us. I was socialized as a female, so you can't tell me "I don't know what it's like."
>>
>>5061492
If you start hormones early enough you just look like a regular dude. I'm no twink but even before I started hormones I was read as male, never a dyke.
>>
>>5060840
transguys are cool.
>>
>>5061492
Yeah, what's with FtMs who transition only to look like a fat hairy balding little manlet troll in the end? Can they seriously call that an improvement?
>>
>>5060840
As a mtf, I disagree. Too bad there aren't more women turning themselves into sexy beasts and hunks of meat.
>>
>>5061173

Welcome to the world of sexism, rape, and objectification that we've lived with our entire lives.

We all know that the only reason your rape numbers are higher is because you haven't lived with it your entire life, and FMT are just as scared of reporting rape as cis men.

Your experience isn't as different from a FTM as you like to think. You're experiences aren't excusable, and the mistreatment you may or may not have gone through it wrong, but it's what AFAB deal with from fucking birth. Suck it up, and start fighting back against it like the rest of us.
>>
>>5061495
I never heard of ftms bullied or killed for being ftms in 1st world countries
>>
>>5061173
How can you be so self-centered you can't imagine your situation, but in reverse?
FtMs don't want to be women any more than you want to be a man.
>>
>>5061872
I do fight back. However, just like I hate cis scum, I also hate FTMs. Deal with it.

And don't dare say that mtfs have same experience as cis females.
>>
>>5061883
But they always pass and they don't have to deal with this level of discrimination. Furthermore, due to centuries of feminist activism, it is acceptable for them to do manly stuff even if they don' transition.
This is privilege.

God bless middle east where FTMs have it rough.
But I can't hate middle eastern FTMs, no, I EMPATHIZE with THEM. Their social experience is similar or even worse then western mtfs,ease of passing aside. However, I could never sympathize nor empathize with pampered western girls.
>>
>>5061872

*Your

Let's all get one thing fucking clear. Sexism is, by definition, treating someone differently on the grounds of their birth sex. A trans man's birth sex is female. While a transgender person's gender is THEIRS, something that uniquely belongs to the, that only they can define. A MTF can still be a sexist. Attacking trans men because you assume that their masculinity won't allow them to admit that they're experiencing the same sexism as a cis woman is one of the worst forms of sexism, and taking estrogen doesn't make you any less of a whiny little AMAB cunt with the urge to feel superior to AFAB.

This shit needs to stop.
>>
>>5060840
>girls are pretty and smell nice and poop chocolate! Teeheehee
>boys are icky and smelly and gross
Transbian pls
>>
>>5061873

Seriously?

I've been raped for "wanting to be a man" more times than I can count, and I've developed suck a high level of post traumatic stress that I can no longer work. I've had five attempts on my life. You're an ignorant, weak little boy still trying to grasp at ANY reason to feel superior to women. Women transitioning into men might feel like a save place to take out your misogyny, but all it proves is that you don't have the mindset it takes to be a female.
>>
average ftm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9go7OisFMDc
>>
>>5061930
Top kek, bro. Sweet post lol
>>
>>5061930
I'm never going to be female cuz I don't fucking pass

dont pass

two words that ftms will never understand
>>
>>5061950
You aren't female because you have a penis :^)
>>
>>5061886

You do, you ignorant little shit. So, baby had her first taste of the female experience. Only, you don't have the risk of pregnancy. You haven't been dealing with this your entire life, and therefore assume it's worse than what any other women experiences. You're a woman with the male privilege of growing up without constant objectification and risk of rape. Deal with it. You can make yourself physically female, but you can't adopt a lifetime of oppression. That's like saying a few years of intense skin bleaching erases a life-time of discrimination for a black man.
>>
>>5061968
TERF pls

fuck off
>>
I'm a filthy mtf and I actually like ftms. It's so stupid to argue on "who has it worse" (I believe pain is objective) or to talk about "privilege". It's neither tumblr nor /pol/, you should appreciate it and just stop this nonsense.
>>
>>5061905


Are you fucking serious? Maybe ten percent of ftm pass, and they're still likely to be raped the second the wrong person finds out they have a pussy.
>>
>>5061968
Not that poster, but I really don't think that trans people of either gender have the same experience as cis people.
>>
>>5061873

Are you aware that "Boy's don't cry" was based on an actual, and /not/ rare case of a ftm being raped and murdered?

Or are we all still living in a fantasy world where a penis makes you a more vulnerable woman.
>>
>>5061980
rape<<<<killed
>>
>>5061992
statistically less ftms get killed then mtfs

that it still made a movie story only proves that females and ftms are privileged and papmpered by society
>>
>>5061950

I don't pass. My partner doesn't pass. I just got out of my fifth psyche hold for a suicide attempt, triggered by not passing.

Cry harder, snowflake.
>>
>>5061976


Go out walking at night in a short shirt, in a bad neighborhood. Then, come back and tell us all about the rape you didn't experience.
>>
I think that FtMs are just girls who want to be different, look how many of them detransition-not because they don't pass, but because "that wasn't what I wanted" sort of bs.

Once they see how tough it is to live as males, they come back to their previous lifestyle.
>>
This thread is hilarious
>>
>>5062006


Statistically, less ftm are treated as their preferred gender, or even as a /trans/ person after death.

I know of three murdered trans men in my home town, and none of them were acknowledged as trans after their death. The newspapers called them all lesbians.
>>
>>5061082
Every since the social and legal playing field leveled with feminism women have been beating men in school, in grades, in performance, in engagement in classroom, in college attendance, in college graduation and in most high paying fields.

Turns out the main reason almost every important historical thinker was men is because women weren't allowed to think ,
>>
File: 1265390421663.jpg (543KB, 800x1152px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
1265390421663.jpg
543KB, 800x1152px
>>5061968
>You're a woman with the male privilege of growing up without constant objectification and risk of rape

Fuck off, TERF cunt. I was raped in my teens because my rapist thought I was a sissy and thus deserving of it. You know NOTHING about what MtFs like me go through.
>>
File: 1422738254166.gif (2MB, 492x492px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
1422738254166.gif
2MB, 492x492px
>>5062031
I love all this butthurt
>>
This thread is dripping with FtM menstrual blood.
>>
>>5061995

You think they aren't? Are you really that naive?
>>
>>5061995

... You don't think men kill defective products?
>>
>>5061968
>mtfs don't get sexually abused as children because MALE PRIVILEGE
whew damn and here I thought I was cornered by a bully and made to suck his dick "for being such a sissy faggot" but I guess that never happened because the patriarchy was still shielding me with privilege beams.
>>
>>5061968
I don't know what's worse-being raped once or being beaten on daily basis for being a "sissy".

Fuck, I ended up in hospital thrice.
I lost several teeth, not to mention wasted youth, stress, depression, etc.
>>
>>5062006

That there were already movies with/about mtf, and it took so long for there to finally be a movie with a ftm character? I think that's prove that male privileged doesn't end when you put on a dress.
>>
>>5062058
And MtF titty skittles
>>
I try to be tolerant(we are all trans) but, holy shit, the amount of bs some FtMs write is sometimes beyond me.
>>
File: 1444181015383.jpg (49KB, 400x386px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
1444181015383.jpg
49KB, 400x386px
I love how people get so upset over other types of people, but then expect everyone else to accept them no matter what.

>"I hate X race/gender/sexuality"
>someone hates their race/gender/sexuality
>"oh my god, stop judging me! you can't hate someone because of their race/gender/sexuality! "

You all crack me up
>>
>>5062026


That's some pretty masculine thinking, coming from someone who wants to be a woman.
>>
>>5062096
that's a very feminine point, coming from someone who wants to be a man
>>
>>5061873
that's because they don't lie to people about being transgender
>>
>>5062070
wtf @ people thinking the fundamental experience that makes you a woman is getting raped or always being afraid of being raped

#1, believe it or not, most women do not get raped. i know, shocking. a large minority do, but even most of them only get raped once in their entire lives. it does not define who they are. only a very small minority of women are getting serially raped or under constant threat of getting raped.

i think the reason you hear so much ridiculous overhype about rape online is just because people who spend all day online are so sheltered. but go out into the world..... believe me, most of the time if not all of the time you will not be getting raped

i used to be so scared of rape but now that i have a life and spend all day in the city, i now realize that while it's always a possibility, statistically you will probably never be raped. so there are a million things in my life that i'm more worried about

plus the fact is men also face the possibility of rape, especially if they're deemed "faggots". one of my best friends recently killed himself due largely to his inability to deal with his history of being sexually abused
>>
so do any mtfs wan't to hatefuck me?
>>
>>5062046

So, a man treated you as a weaker man, and asserted dominance.

My first three rape experiences happened before I turned 8, and I had to drop out of school to get away from a rapist that tried to convince the entire student body that he was just "correcting" me.

Life isn't magically harder for you, I'm sorry.
>>
File: 1436340516229.jpg (434KB, 800x800px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
1436340516229.jpg
434KB, 800x800px
>>5062117
>i think the reason you hear so much ridiculous overhype about rape online is just because people who spend all day online are so sheltered.

THIS
VVV
>>5062023

top kek
>>
>>5062085
what about boys don't cry tho
>>
Mtf's hating trans men is internalized misogyny against cis women.

That may of been the most Tumblr thing I've ever said but I honestly think that's the root of the issue. That and trans men are becoming that which they hate about themselves.
>>
>>5062047

This thread is proof that estrogen makes trannies crazy.
>>
>>5062037
This
>>
>>5062136
(btw, this story didn't happen I'm just trying to win internet argument tee hee)
>>
>>5062070


>Acting like your rape experience is equal to the lifetime of fear and objectification that most women already face.
>>
>>5062126
You want me to stick my girltinkler in your mangina while cursing you for squandering your beautiful female-sex'd body?

...Sure, sounds hot.
>>
>>5062136
>My first three rape experiences happened before I turned 8

sure
>>
>>5062023
i mean they probably wouldn't be raped fyi

if they did that every night over and over eventually they would be raped, sure, but like

yeah people aren't just getting raped left and right ya know
>>
>>5062136
>My first three rape experiences
>rape experiences

let me guess, he gently touched your vagoo trice?
>>
>>5061992
it does make you a more vulnerable woman tho..... like statistically, mtf's deal with rape and violence more than cis women.....
>>
>>5062171
shhh don't break their rape fantasy
>>
>>5061995
Several on both sides are being killed
>>
>>5062161
did you have better plans?
>>
>>5062175
More like she was raped when a man looked at her menacingly .
>>
more ftm faggotry

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTvz06UlCp8
>>
>>5062192
no I bet a disgusting patriarch LITERALLY DISAGREED WITH HER
>>
why are mtfs so salty
>>
>>5062202
because they are bitter and have nothing better to do
>>
>>5062079


And you think I haven't? You think your experience is unique? I also never said I was raped /once/. It was a tool repeatedly used by bullies.

Have you ever been put on a psych hold for trying to kill the demon some other man planted inside of you?

Your experiences aren't any less important, but they aren't /worse/ than the same experiences in any other human being.
>>
>>5061968
>You're a woman with the male privilege of growing up without constant objectification and risk of rape
We're woman growing up with the constant risk of being raped with no consequences for our aggressor.

FTFY.
>>
>>5062202
cuz life made us so

unlike ftms who have it easy and are all happy and lucky with their imaginary "problems"
>>
>>5062202
mtfs don't have the ability to live normal lives like ftms, so they shitpost here all day
>>
File: 1443736670090.png (581KB, 599x825px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
1443736670090.png
581KB, 599x825px
>>5062202
Kek
>>
>>5062217
you should write poetry
>>
>>5062110
FUCKING THIS
>>
>>5062197
but check out this gem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xfTN-dKqO4
>>
>>5062145

That is the first FtM movie I'm talking about.
>>
>>5062217
>>5062136
>>5061930

stories that didn't happen
>>
>>5062242
It's not as trendy to make movies about ftm's cause "feminism."
>>
>>5062155

Yet. Because discounted my experiences on line actually erases them. No matter how I respond emotionally to you, it doesn't change my life. If you're this dead set in your own delusions, there's nothing I can do to help you.

I've been raped, brutally and frequently, from a young age. That doesn't just disappear when an anonymous stranger wants to believe that they've had it so much worse.
>>
>>5062239
SKIP TO 3:35
what is wrong with these people lel
>>
>>5062222
>>
>>5062168


I've already had a lifetime of strangers telling me the same thing. My parents, school, and the police. At this point, you're not going to phase me. If you're looking to play the privilege game, face reality. Trans men are just as vulnerable as you are, and women have been more vulnerable than the both of us for most of the history of our species.
>>
>>5062136
Surely you meant

>My first eight rape experiences happened before I turned 3
>>
>>5062161
hot af, I kinda want this now.
>>
>>5062285
What were these..experiences, then?
>>
/thread
I am an mtf and I do admit that I am a lot more privileged that any other woman. Maybe if I passed I'd get a little bit closer to that but it's still incomparable. The majority of rapists are straight men so the probability of a tranny or a man getting raped is a lot smaller. Also I can be a rapist myself due to my genitals - the "transbians" are just like the "you just need to try a cock" men. NO lesbian would want to sleep with a tranny, you should fucking understand it... and they're calling it "cotton ceilling"/"transphobia". Like srsly, wtf? That's called victim guilting, a practice typical to guess who... men! I'm so ashamed to be an mtf. I identify as a woman so I should be loyal to the gender I have. I have slightly more privilege, but I won't fail so low to use it. Seriously, most trannies just act like MEN.
>>
>>5062372
>I'm mtf

and I'm a an alien from planet Vegeta
>>
File: uncle tom.jpg (135KB, 1024x755px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
uncle tom.jpg
135KB, 1024x755px
>>5062372
>>
>>5062372
niceb8 dyke
>>
>>5062428
Shut the fuck up. How can you call yourself a woman when you oppress another women? It's some sorta logic I'll never understand.
>>
>>5062438
>women never oppressed other women
>no, it was all male patriarchy!
>>
>>5061492

tbh i'm a transguy, and i on/off debate hormones cuz of the balding... i need at least top surgery, but i see no point in going on hormones and staying on to go bald... like i'd do them temporarily for some changes, but fuck going bald...

i'm 5' tall, and trans i don't need male pattern baldness too...
>>
>>5062506
and people wonder why are mtfs desperate to get on moans
>>
Fuck. This is why I don't what to belong in the T group. I will deal with my dysphoria and suck it up. You people suck.
>>
>>5062438
>implying i'm mtf
>>
>>5062372
>trans women are less likely to be raped
kek, fuck off terf
>>
>>5062531
you'd never make it as a trans person anyway with skin that thin
>>
>>5062531
Most trans people aren't really that bad. They just don't talk about being trans or preach about it 24/7 and just live their life. Tbh, the annoying trans people in here would be annoying if they were cis too.
>>
>>5062514

nah i totally get that, i can't imagine being a transchick and going through that... that's gotta be a fucking nightmare, but i mean... i think all transpeople are desperate for some kinda relief from the negative effects of this shit it just varies...for me top surgery is more important than anything else... even if i didn't pass, i'd feel better just having that fixed

but yeah i'm sure that's awful...
>>
>>5062038
Every since the whole western society have been transformed to cater mainly to women, non-women have a terrible life.
Yes, we know white privilege is codeword for femicunt privilege, what's new?
>>
>>5062438
troll confirmed

no tranny knows this much radical feminist knowledge
>>
>>5062372
>I am an mtf

lel. Nice try TERF
>>
File: fujoshi.jpg (32KB, 283x299px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
fujoshi.jpg
32KB, 283x299px
You know how youre on a porn website and like there is always that gross agp tranny who wants to be a sissy bimbo faggot for bbc or some shit.
I feel like the female equivalent are like those tumblr bitches who read too much yaoi.
They dont want to be a gross hairy manly man, they want to be a skinny effeminate hairless twink yaoi boy.
Its all a unrealistic fantasy
>>
>>5063440
funny how i always wanted to be a skinny effeminate hairless twink yaoi boy and i still do but i'm mtf

i probably shouldn't spend my teenage years browsing yaoi boards
>>
>>5063458
>mtfujoshi
Liking twinky yaoi should be added to the diagnosis criteria for trans women tbbqh
>>
File: 1444183149018.jpg (66KB, 500x503px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
1444183149018.jpg
66KB, 500x503px
>recognize people's experiences are independent of my own and their suffering is just as valid as mine is
>don't feel the need to put others down to try and make myself feel better

wowza

not even gonna blame it on mtfs. one of the best transpeople I know is an mtf and she's super rad and super cute.
>>
Holy shit,sure is tumblr in here since moot died.
>>
>>5063679
this thread is embarrassing
>>
>>5063986
the middle one
>>
It was pretty much the day's most shameful display.

Worst part is? I think OP was sincere, if deluded.
>>
>>5063986
The second from the left, now stop trying to be some fee fee protection agenda pushing faggot.
>>
>>5061905
>But they always pass

Let me stop you right there - no, they don't.
>>
>>5063986
Wait till they stand up, pick the shortest one with the widest hips.

It's not that hard, people just have less experience clocking trans men.
>>
>>5062085
There were no movies about trans women before Boys don't cry that weren't shitty comedies with the trans woman as a villain, a punchline, or both.
>>
>>5062046
>mtf claims they got raped
Men can't be raped, only women can truly experience the helplessness of rape. Men, especially white men have an innate status and privilege that disqualifies them from experiencing "rape" you may be physically violated but you were never raped.
>>
>>5064035
>>5064057
>>5064147
I don't know because it shouldn't fucking matter.
>>
>>5064212
> I don't know because it shouldn't fucking matter

That's not how it works.

>What race was that person?
>It shouldn't matter so I have no idea!

>Was it a man or a woman?
>It doesn't matter so I didn't notice!
>>
>>5064234
>tfw some people are too mixed to know objectively what race they count as or look like
>>
File: 1415926240981.png (139KB, 800x800px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
1415926240981.png
139KB, 800x800px
>>5064185
>>
>>5064185
crossing my fingers that i don't get manhandled in the corner by my trainer when the day shift is over and it's just me and him on the machine all night
>>
>>5060840
That's why I'm going full femboy
>>
Can't we all just get along? :)
>>
>implying being hairy, deep-voiced and stinking like fuck aren't fun
>>
>>5062168
Nigger that happens a lot more than you fucking realize.
>>
>>5060840
Why the fuck do you post this thread every day? Are you some sort of autistic transbian faggot?
>>
>>5061950

Pretty much this. I don't hate FtMs by any means but I really resent that they all pass and then act like they've got it harder than mtfs because they were AFAB.
>>
>>5062202
It comes with the package:
>receive suicidal thoughts
>learn to repress them
>repression isn't perfect and many other emotions get repressed with it
>>
>>5060840
I'm FTM. I don't want a smelly hairy gross body. I shave, I bathe- like most men do. I don't see men as gross, smelly, hairy people.

I see men just as the same as I see women. I just don't fit in that category anymore.
>>
>>5061968
>females
>oppressed
pick one tumblr sjw faggot
Thread posts: 151
Thread images: 16


[Boards: 3 / a / aco / adv / an / asp / b / bant / biz / c / can / cgl / ck / cm / co / cock / d / diy / e / fa / fap / fit / fitlit / g / gd / gif / h / hc / his / hm / hr / i / ic / int / jp / k / lgbt / lit / m / mlp / mlpol / mo / mtv / mu / n / news / o / out / outsoc / p / po / pol / qa / qst / r / r9k / s / s4s / sci / soc / sp / spa / t / tg / toy / trash / trv / tv / u / v / vg / vint / vip / vp / vr / w / wg / wsg / wsr / x / y] [Search | Top | Home]
Please support this website by donating Bitcoins to 16mKtbZiwW52BLkibtCr8jUg2KVUMTxVQ5
If a post contains copyrighted or illegal content, please click on that post's [Report] button and fill out a post removal request
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.
This is a 4chan archive - all of the content originated from that site. This means that 4Archive shows an archive of their content. If you need information for a Poster - contact them.