If women and men were truly treated equally in this world, there

It's about body dysphoria, how they're treated socially doesn't matter.

>>3191564
yes this is what marxism told , (not newage cultural one)

lgbt only can be free when women free

>>3191568

So why transgenders talk about "social dysphoria"?
Are these not really trans?

>>3191564
>If women and men were truly treated equally in this world, there would be no need for transgender surgery;
How do you know this? People transition for a variety of reasons but bodily discomfort is a big one. A lot of them were gender-nonconforming before. There are people who were conservative and hypermasculine before then transition and say they don't need to be like that now that they aren't men (like that boxing promoter, whatever their name is). That makes me wonder. But I don't think that's the norm.

>>3191581
If they only have social dypshoria, then yeah, they're just shitheads.

Some people feel uncomfortable being treated as a guy too, but it's still primarily body dysphoria.

I'd still hate my dick and my flat chest and my disgustingly manly jaw if women were allowed to have those.

>>3191613
This. I personally don't give two shits about which gender society sees me as, I just want a female body.

>>3191568
Social dysphoria matters but the motivation comes back to body dysphoria. I hate being read as a guy because it reminds me of masculine stuff about my body ad also makes me feel like all the effort I put into my appearance is a waste of time. I'm always confused by people that say they only have social dysphoria because none of that applies to them. I don't think they're really trans they just want to claim oppression without having to do anything difficult.

Some people would still need it. It's helpful for many. And when better surgeries are available (lab grown vaginas and uteri), they'd be even more in demand since they'd be truly functional I'm addition to cosmetic.

But surgery is not essential to a trans identity, and needn't be essential for societal acceptance if that identity, as the long history if pre-modern identities (Hijra, kathoey, galli, two-spirit, etc) demonstrate.

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>>3191564
>If women and men were truly treated equally in this world, there would be no need for transgender surgery
While that's great and all, you'd still need to tell biology to treat women and men equally.

And biology just ain't having that shit.

>>3191564
I want to change my body, my actual physical sex as much as possible. The social aspects are sort of secondary. It's a feeling that my body itself is wrong, not that I want to do feminine stuff, whatever that means. People always seem to miss this part because it's all drowned out by the trenders' bullshit. I don't even plan on acting any more feminine than your average tomboy.

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>implying changing society will give me lady bits.

>>3191697
yes,
yes we are the SAME
thank you

>>3191694
Which is the actual root of the problem. Telling people how they are and how they are actually are are very different.

>>3191753
wut?

>>3191564
Actually, I'm physically a boy, I'm well integrated in society as a boy (and my role does not bother me at all) BUT, I'm feel sad inside me. The problem is about how I see myself, not about how others see me.

>>3191568
This. My parents were an engineer and a biochemist, and both felt that gender rolls were a suboptimal way to run a house. Every kid, regardless of gender, was expected to know how to sew, cook, Do an oil change and use the drill press. I even got a lecture from mom at age 6 about how color is just the reflection of a specific wavelength of EM energy, and that the pink and blue coloration of toys doesn't mean anything. The town was also liberal as fuck, and everyone was cool with trans people because the transwoman who worked at the DMV was the only staff member who seemed to understand the concept of customer service.

in short, i had the closest thing to a gender-neutral upbringing you can get without going full sweden emotional abuse mode, and trans people were accepted in my community. But it still felt off, puberty was still armageddon, and I'm still transitioning.

>>3191564
>Obvious Bait.jpg

>>3191581
Social dysphoria is to not be recognized by others as the sex you identify as, not about gender roles.

Gender isn't a social construct (I'm a big liberal faggot but even I admit this) so there will always be gender roles to some extent. Even if they aren't strictly enforced there will still be norms.

>>3191564
Er no, that I want to be a woman has nothing to do with the way men or women are treated. I happen to like the female body more, that's it.

>>3191581
Many trans people experience social dysphoria, it's upsetting to not be treated as who and what you feel you are, this doesn't mean they don't experience body dysphoria as well. Anyone who claims to be trans based solely on social dysphoria is a dipshit who doesn't even understand the concept of being trans.

>>3194585
>I happen to like the female body more, that's it.

So you don't actually have body dysphoria?
You just want a female body because you think it'd be cooler?

Congratulations, you're not trans and you need to leave this shit for people with an actual medical problem. :) Thanks!

>>3191564
This is a radical feminist viewpoint. Radical feminists argue that if we abolished the social notion of gender, it would solve the disagree between the transgender person's body and the precieved social stereotypes associated with their body. Dysmorphia comes out of the relation to society's stereotypes and the body. Brain sex does not exist, as shown by how plastic the mind is. If the brain were uninfluenced by society, then it would prove brain sex exist but it is. When transgender people feel like a boy or girl, they are referring to the stereotypes associated with that sex. There is no way a man can experience the young girlhood of women and vice versa, which actually entails the entire female or male experience.

http://sexnotgender.com/brain-sex-does-not-exist/ This has many resources as to why brain sex doesn't exist. The issue is social, not genetics or homones.

>>3201311

This page is an absolute joke.

>>3201336
Prove it

If you can't beat a country by force then do it so in another way.

Destroy family values, turn men into women, and women into men.

There is a war on gender and equality, and we've been fighting the wrong people.

>>3191564
If gender doesn't matter to you, then why would it matter to call someone with a penis a woman?

>>3201341

First off, it's run by radfems. Second, it uses Anne Lawrence as a source. That's really all you need to hear.

>>3201311
Brain sex definitely does not exist. Hormones do play a part in the most extreme forms of gendered behaviour (esp. male ones...) but social factors, especially early socialisation are the most important in determining gender.
Beauvoir said that one isn't born a woman, but becomes one. That's also true for men, even more so.
Male socialisation is harsh and violent, this only coming from cultural reproduction, and it is naturally aborrhent to most children, no matter their biological sex. Boys who don't get pushed hard enough into those harsh forms of socialisation become betas if they don't socialise properly at all, MtFs if they take refuge with girls... Getting torn apart from your friends at puberty because of the diverging changes certainly is major body dysphoria fuel...
Gender neutral education and a concerted crackdown on patriarchal transmission would certainly make transsexualism a thing of the past for future generations.
Telling the current trans crowd to suck it up or go kill themselves is most callous and unfortunate, though.

>>3201388
>>3201295
>>3191564
TERFS not even once.

You people need to get a new hooby and really just midn your own fucking buisness.

I was 6 when i realised i was trans and wanted to have babies. that has never changed.

you entire concept of ''girlhood'' is reatarded because it's based on a flawed view that every girl feels the same or goes through the same things. Stupid, narrow minded foolish and most of all bigoted ideology and behaviour ,. and you need to fuck off.

The world wil get on fine with out you. Please leave humanity now.

>>3201388
jesus christ, patriarchal transmission- that's too hilarious, not only do you think the patriarchy exists but apparently has characteristics like ebola.

>>3201512
tbh I like dealing with terfs more than regular feminists because they're fucking insane and irrational that if anything too dramatic happens in public everyone else automatically will side with you because they're so fucking crazy no one can trust them.

>>3201512
Have you considered getting surgery to fix your fingers? You can't seem to type coherently.

Please note that I do not actually agree with the people you're responding to, but you're doing a piss-poor job of actually talking like a person.

>>3201563
>Have you considered getting surgery to fix your fingers? You can't seem to type coherently.
MAYBE!

>>3201563
>typing
>talking

idiot.

Also, this is 4chan, could give a fuck how i type here ass cake u mud bru?

>>3201582
Please stop trying to excuse your poor communication skills. If you want to make a point against people saying that they believe a neutral standard of raising children would lead to transgender issues disappearing, do it coherently. This is not tumblr. You cannot fragment and word-vomit here and expect decent responses; you will be met with the same quality of response you put out.

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>trans are like 1% of population

>hey let's change the whole fucking society so the 1% with mental illness doesn't feel bad!!!

Wow, OP, what's next?
Giving everyone a Napoleon hat to make the schyzophrenic feel better?

>>3201604
you poor comprehension skills.

you see, if you were truly smart it wouldn't matter how a person typed, you'd be able to comprehend. But, since you're a stupid asshole. Thats not a possibility.

You're a pitiable person

>>3191564
>I'm totally a legit psychologist who's studied this in depth before coming to a conclusion

This thread was b8 from the start.

>>3201622
>>hey let's change the whole fucking society so the 1% with mental illness doesn't feel bad!!!
>Mental illness

Nice try TERF. but you just hit the nope wall of death again.

>>3201636
even if they were sane, change the society for 1% of the population is BULLSHIT.

>>3201643
Tyranny of the Majority m8

lrn2America

>>3201652
>Tyranny of the Majority m8
aka democracy.
whatever the 50% +1 says, it's law.

>>3201636
In what way is it not a mental illness? It's on the same tier as homosexuality, multiple sclerosis, any genetically inherited disadvantage. Gay people can't naturally have children. Trans people aren't in the right body to fit with their minds. It's a simple statement of fact, it's not an insult. Trans people shouldn't be mocked any more than someone born missing an arm should be mocked, because it's unfair and out of their control.

Should society adapt to be more accepting of their presence? Fucking right it should. Should society radically change so that it revolves around the needs of a small percentage of people that can get on fine without that radical change (the complete overthrowing of gender roles that this thread is about) in the first place? No, it shouldn't. There's no good reason. Live with it.

>>3201643
See, you're just trying to belittle people. Saying trans people aren't sane is unfounded and silly. There's plenty of batshit trans people out there, just like there's plenty of batshit white people, batshit women, batshit everyone. You're making an assumption that makes your argument seem more convincing, but it's not a fair assumption. Knock it the fuck off.

>>3201622
What parts of society are people changing?

>>3201665
so you're telling one anon they're mentally ill, and telling another anon he can't say they aren't sane?

I want to try your drugs.

>>3201665
But homosexuals do not want to mutilate their functional penises to look like vaginas but have zero functionality of one or that they don't suffer from autism or narcissism and aren't (generally) batshit crazy. Your initial argument is successfully based on false analogies.

>>3201669
>What parts of society are people changing?
OP wants to change "gender roles".

>>3201311

Men and women definitely differ in their behavior, innately, yet I don't think the "brain sex" theory is accurate.

>>3201661
>imblying

If you leave the acquisition of minority rights up to the general 51% percent of the public, no one ever gets everywhere.

Unless you're a straight cis guy posting to try and troll, you should know this well enough.

>>3201643
>>3201643
no, radfems might be batshit insane, begoted transphobes, but the idea of breaking gender roles and feminist equality is still a core of changing society for the best. no girl should live in fear of rape and pink blue gender shit should be removed from society, so should sexualisation of women

rad fems just think that being transphobic and hating an underclass of people is ''fun'' and they waste their efforts because they cant fight the true evil of the world

>>3201687
i'm a bored cis bi guy trying to stir up some shit. have a nice day

>>3201341

http://www.gendercare.com/library/italiano1.html

This page effectively trashes Anne Lawrence's argument.

>>3201665
the bait is terrible.

>>3201692
do you really think an "all women" squad can raise a house from scratch?

>>3201671
There's a huge difference between being insane and having another disorder that has nothing to do with your mental stability aside from being depressed about not having the genitalia you feel you need.

>>3201675
You're the one making the claim that trans people tend to suffer from that kind of instability. That shit can totally get out of hand, for sure- there's plenty of cases of depression among trans people, but you're going to need to present something to back you up. "It's general knowledge" won't do.

The same way you treat cancer with chemo and lupus with steroids, or treat any other disease with medicine as needed, you treat being trans with surgery when it's required. There's nothing wrong with it.

>>3201703
what are you talking about? please dot use slang.

>>3201717
you called homosexuality a mental illness. please. this isn't 1950 any more.

>>3201717
"thinking you are born the wrong sex" is an illness PER SE.
it's nobody fault, but they're ill.
yes, even gays, except they usually live an happy life in accepting society, whereas no society can make a man feel a woman, unless hormones and surgery

People said niggers are just kept back by society and poverty, they'd be as good as whiteys given the chance.

Well, we made a nigger president, and he's been one of the worst EVER.

This to say there's a difference between man and woman, just because Hillary might BECOME prez it doesn't mean a woman can BE a prez

>>3201730
But it literally is. I'm gay, therefore I'm mentally ill. It doesn't really detract from my life any, so I don't need to go get treated for it, if a treatment would even work. What the fuck's the issue? Would you be insulted if you found out you had the flu and I told you that you were ill?

>>3201734
This is exactly what I was saying, though. It's not anyone's fault. Society should learn to live with their presence, because it's not that big of a deal. Society's not obligated to remove gender roles to appease people that much.

>>3201750
>But it literally is. I'm gay, therefore I'm mentally ill
no you're just stupid. and you might be mentally ill, but thats just you. not other gay people.

please fuck off.

>>3201750
No....no you're not mentally ill. Neither is a trans person, the APA doesn't classify either of them as a mental illness.

>>3201756
dude something went "wrong" in your brain and the boner switch got set to men instead of women.

accept it, and you can live happy.

>>3201758
he might be mentally ill but not because he sucks dick. Probably because he had a bible shoved up his ass though.

>>3201761
i like women idiot. you dont even make sense.

>>3201750
>>3201756
>>3201758

Defining something as "mentally ill" is useless. Ask yourself, what does it mean to call something mentally ill? It's just dependent on the culture. Nothing is "objectively" mentally ill.

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>be guy
>wants cock in his mouth and ass
>i-i'm f-fine, i swear! you baka!

lol relax dude, this is /lgbt/, not /pol/, you don't have to defend youself.
just don't lie, that's all

>>3201684
>Men and women definitely differ in their behavior,
how

>>3201758
You're not making an argument about why being gay/trans/otherwise abnormal isn't an illness. You're regurgitating definitions that a liberal society has put out there to make people feel better. I'm really liberal, before you go saying I'm some self-hating right wing bigot. I've just got no issue identifying aspects of myself and others.

>>3201764
I was raised without religion involved at all, man. Please stop making assumptions about me.

>>3201776
their idea that straight people are not mentally ill is the thing. they base straight sex as being not mentally ill.

>>3201785
but you're so stupid though. or a 10/10 troll. either way you're dumb as fuck. thats not an assumption thats just a fact

if trans are so easily offended, why do they spend so much time on the internet, and 4chan of all places?

jesus christ it's like you hons love to be insulted

>>3201785
you have a concept of what is ''sane'' please, this whole world is batshit insane. there is no ''mentally well people'' just people who get by better than others.

>>3201795
i personally hate it. But it was kind of forced onto me. Being socially outcast. Didn't really have a choice. Wish i did, but i dont

>>3201778

well, boys tend to act more aggressive and competitive. if you took a baby boy and raised it as a girl, it probably wouldn't act like a "normal girl". I think it's silly to suggest that men and women, on average, act in exactly the same way, when they don't. Men and women are just fundamentally different in a lot of ways, and this includes behavior.

>>3201808
you have to understand i'm including gays and myself too in this, and the other anon is too doing the same.
so it's not to offend trans or whatever, it's just stating this:

listen, gays are like 3% of population, and trans are maybe what 1%?
ok so 87% of people brains work a way, ours work different.

which is one is more probably to be "wrong"? theirs or ours?

>>3201788
Being straight means you're going to have sex as biologically intended, man and woman. Any deviation from that is an illness/disorder by definition. Jesus fuck, it's the normal for a reason. It's not like deviating from it is some crime.

>>3201799
This isn't an argument. This is you projecting really, really hard.

>>3201795
I don't know what the fuck is going on in this thread. I was trying to have an actual discussion, but maybe those are restricted to talking about grilled cheese and how to dress up in generals.

>>3201795
nobody chose 4chan, it chose you. Who wants to constantly fight with opposing ideas all day long for no fucking reason. It's not culturally enriching. Its not mentally stimulating either. We're here because we have no place to go. We're all social rejects. it's sad, but true. And i love each and every one of you mentally ill gaybos.

even the TERFS, because they are just scared lil children and i feel sorry for them

>>3201822
97% damn typo

>>3201825
> biology
> intending anything

lrn2biology

>>3201512
>>3201549
For full disclosure, I'm >>3201388, MtF, lesbian and feminist. Second wave, though, not TERF for obvious reasons.

>>3201825
So people who enjoy anal sex, oral sex, anything besides procreation are mentally ill? okay.

>>3201825
>This isn't an argument. This is you projecting really, really hard.
says you. too ironic.All you do is project you're opinion onto others as ''fact'' what more else can you do, you then nod yourself into ignoring anything else that disagrees with you
you're ''discussion;; is based around insular thinking and nothing else. You cant evolve an idea when you've got a Binary thinking patterns happening in your head.

>>3201835
Then you're just a lost cause. I'm sorry for you.

>>3201836
No, you're not reading what you're responding to before you respond to it. Being attracted exclusively to the same gender is an illness/disorder. It prevents you from passing on genes to children, which is kind of the point of existing as designated by the world you live in. You are leaping to conclusions and trying to put words in people's mouths. Stop it.

>>3201825
It's an abnormality, not a mental illness. Simply a mutation like any other with no negative effects. You can still have children even if you're gay.

>>3201854
>It prevents you from passing on genes to children
You're a moron, I can impregnate women just fine. In fact I plan to.

>>3201854
>>3201825
>Being straight means you're going to have sex as biologically intended, man and woman. Any deviation from that is an illness/disorder by definition.

You are not biologically intended to stick your dick in anything other than a vagina. Enjoy being mentally ill.

i'm the other anon, a cis bi guy, and I said it's an illness to mean "something different in your brain routing than 97% of the population".

that doesn't mean you can't be more sane than a lot of straight people (hell, somebody shoots schools!) but you got a mutation, something.

I didn't put "procreation" in this thing as the other anon

>>3201855
You can call it that too, that's totally fine. It's not black and white by any means, but it's at least abnormal and would be harmful if we didn't live in a time where you could go donate sperm or have a surrogate mother help you out.

>>3201858
Because you live in a period of time where the technology to do that exists. Try to imagine what it would be like if you couldn't do that. See the problem?

>>3201875
It's not impossible to have sex with a woman if you're gay, just like it's not impossible to have sex with ugly people.

>>3201882
you must be a bit bi man.
I know gays who would puke their intestines out if forced to stick it in a pussy.

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>>3201882
It's not impossible to be happy if you're depressed, just like it's not impossible to be happy if you're trans.

/lgbt/ prides itself on being the anti-tumblr, but this board is still too politically correct to have a truly honest discussion about homosexuality or transsexualism. Might as well take the discussion somewhere else.

>>3201955
>>>/pol/ is that way, retard.

>>3201734
"thinking you are born the wrong sex" is an illness
but being attracted to the same sex isn't

why are there so many trutrans shitheads on this board? You don't need sex dysphoria to be transgender, not every trans person fits the same narrative of "bluu bluu i hate my penis/vagina and knew i was different since i was 2 years old"