Using the magazine as a monopod is superior in every single possible

with irony: harmonics

>>35118735
They're retarded and heard from someone who heard from someone who heard from someone who made it up that it's bad.

Every shooter worth their weight in dog shit uses the mag as a monopod while prone if they are making precise shots and don't have a bipod.

>>35118735
They used to tell recruits in basic training that using the magazine as a monopod would cause stoppages, because that's what they were told to tell them, and they didn't know any better.

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>>35118758

holdover from the days of stamped smgs

the grease gun's magazine was so shit that if you gripped it too hard it would fail to feed, I guess it just traumatized the military so bad they still train not to use the mag as a grip to this day.

monopoding is a completely different beast however, you're not putting any excess pressure on the mag. if I had to hazard a guess I'd say the issue stems from troopers slamming the mag against the ground with excess force

>>35118758
M4 isn't free floated so unless you zero'd the rifle shooting off the mag chances are your point of impact will be different if you zero'd resting the handguard on a baguette

>>35121421
Why would bag autocorrect to baguette

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>>35121421
>resting the handguard on a baguette
tell me more

>>35121421
kek is that the famas version of a monopod?

>>35121421
Topkek

>>35118735
It's basically just a result of high powered military fuddlore. When I went through basic, my Drill Sergeants told me resting on the mag would cause stoppages. Note this was not in any of the formal training or manuals, just something they had picked up from somebody else. So they tell recruits this, recruits believe it and grow up to be NCOs themselves, and repeat this lie to more new soldiers. The problem with military fuddlore is that soldiers think that since they are in the military they automatically know shit about guns. Also seemingly any civilian they talk to is going to believe 100% anything a soldier says about guns because "they are a highly trained expert" of course.

Also contributing to this myth is the high rate of failure among GI issued magazines in circulation. The single biggest reason for magazine malfunctions are bent or worn feedlips, however a shockingly high number of soldiers never check or even know how to check feedlips. So they are ignorant of the real reason for a malfunction. Have a soldier using a mag with a bad feedlip who rests his mag on the dirt and has a malfunction and he is going to, by ignorant deduction, decide that the cause of the malfunction was resting the rifle on the dirt. And he will perpetuate the myth because as far as he is concerned, he has seen resting a mag on the dirt cause a malfunction with his own two eyes.

>>35118735
Up until 2016, according to the official US Army rifle manual, resting a magazine on the ground could cause a stoppage. They fucking finally updated that shit last year, but you've got a lot of pushback from dinosaurs who don't listen and didn't want to listen in the first place when people said for decades that it wasn't a source of issues.

>>35121548
Dont forget, spraying a shit ton of clp right before shooting. I really wanna spray clp in the face of whoever started that shit. Oh, you wonder why your gun jammed? Maybe its because of all the gunk caused by dirt and carbon mixing with clp that has been heated by 100+ rounds.

>>35121655
This shit makes me pull my hair out. How about dudes using steel dental picks to clean the insides of their rifles. Nothing could possibly fucking go wrong with that, right? All to get out a microscopic speck of carbon that isn't going to do shit to cause a problem.

I once see'd a guy (NCO...admin, of course) clean down the outside of a SAW with a fucking Brillo pad.

>>35121500
Stale baguettes are tougher than any steel yet known to man

>>35121632
The issue involved idiots that would put a lot of their weight on the mag when they tried to use it as a monopod. If you jack a mag in the well either forward, or to the rear, because damn near all of your torso weight is resting on it, than the angle the round feeds into the chamber could very well change, creating a stoppage. Especially if you've got shitty mag springs, which a lot of regular soldiers couldn't even identify. So since idiots would use shitty technique, then they declared the entire technique shitty, instead of teaching people how to properly rest the gun on the mag without putting any additional weight on it.

The bottom line is that there are very, VERY few units in the army that can actually shoot, and the only unit outside of SOF that has a decent marksmanship program is AMU. All the rest care about is getting the bare minimum zero at 25 meters, and meeting the bare minimum score at the qual range. The only conventional units I've seen that actually emphasized shooting were commanded by ex-regiment dudes, or lead by ex-regiment NCO's.

>>35118735
Because ARs suck and most people use ARs. The action is weak and messing with the magazine angle can cause malfunctions.

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>>35121851
A lot of units care a lot about marksmanship, but a lot of the training is run at the lowest level by NCOs using either wrong or anciently out of date techniques. So they are trying their very hardest to teach less than optimal techniques.

Add to that the total misplacement of priorities when it comes to cleaning and maintenance. I think we are in agreement about magazine inspections being practically non-existent on an appreciable level.

And then when it comes to other weapons like say handguns, people scoff at the idea of really training to get good with the M9 because "everybody knows" that the M9 sucks. It creates a perpetual cycle.

My was pretty good about everybody being a good shooter, but that's only because we were both small enough and funded enough that we could send most people to civilian contracted tactical shooting courses. These courses are excellent compared to military training because they actually fucking update techniques with the times and have a lot of feedback. They train in ways that are logical. I have beaten my head when it comes to military training. Not shooting related, but I was a training aid advisor for IEDs at WLC and I explicitly explained to cadre that what they were training people to do and look for was wrong. The cadre accepted and understood what I was saying...but they trained soldiers wrong anyway because "we gotta follow the training manual", which was of course written by cadre with no clue and only updated every half decade. Literally following the rules was more important than giving correct and life saving training.

>>35121679
No joke, i wosh they would go back to ww1 and ww2 standards where they would just clean everything with hot soapy water and a tooth brush followed by some oil, at least that way the firearms will not be scratched to shit and the crowns mangled to hell, decreasing accuracy.

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>>35121421
>resting the handguard on a baguette

>>35121941
The thing is that the written standards for cleaning are mostly fine. Nowhere in the manual does it say to clean a SAW with a Brillo pad. I mean, that's advanced ignorance.

No matter where you set the paper standards, you've got mouthbreathers setting their own de facto standards based on idiocy.

>>35121970
You know what would be awesome, if instead of 15 sharp posters in every room and office, you have only 14, with the 15th being an infographic on how to clean tge rifle with a little subnote on actual regulations for cleaning.

>>35122064
Cont

You know what, im actually gonna make one this weekend, and email it to the army saying this will save you 1 million dollars in weapon repair costs.

>>35118735
Seems to be bad practice with AR's. My AK doesn't give a shit, but my AR does not like it with specific mags, such as my Lancers.

>>35122064
The fucking army can have women's appreciation month and nigger appreciation month, but heaven forbid there's a P.T. appreciation month, a marksmanship appreciation month, or a fire and maneuver appreciation month.

The army is filled with, and ran by faggots and bitches....

>>35122096
Every month is PT appreciation month. Of course the same kind of dumbshit fuddlore you see with weapons happens in PT too.

>Let's do an 8 mile long body armor run!
>Oh no, why do so many soldiers have knee problems?

Also high PT scores are one of the top things looked at for aspiring NCOs. He might be dumber than a box of rocks, but he got a 300 score so he's surely a great leader!

We need to bring back the Specialist career path for moto dudes who are excellent grunts but terrible leaders.

>>35118735

I agree. Prone unsupported to me means resting my magazine on my clenched fist. I shoot a damn good qualification using that method. Why on God's green earth would I jam my elbow into the hard earth and focus almost exclusively on how much my elbow hurts when I can rest the magazine on my fist and have a solid and stable firing platform?

It's not like I'm ever going to be in a firefight without my fist or a magazine in my rifle while prone.

I've only gotten scolded once for doing it, and I just ignored the range safety and still fired expert. I need muh promotion points, even if my rifle DID malfunction due to any sort of pressure on the magazine I'd still shoot better with a stable firing platform than using my shitty elbow to hold my rifle like a tard.

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>>35122096

>>35122136
Written like a true fat bastard.

The army has done nothing but lower fitness standards, and fat standards, over the past 20 years.

>>35122238
Fitness is important, but it is often used as a shield for guys who are fucking retarded at Forest Gump levels. Specialist career path solves that and other issues to keep good soldiers from getting promoted out of their competency by forcing them into a leadership roll.

>>35118735
Depends. I generally like to have the rifle be supported by my elbow since I'm giving it more support that way. If the magazine is a bit flat on the bottom, I'll use that as a support sometimes. Generally I like to have the rifle come up to my eye level rather than me have to go down to it.

>>35122278
Valid point, but I didn't see the conventional forces do anything other than promoting mediocrity, and have disdain for anyone that tried to actually exceed standards.

Hell, 1/3 of Ft. Hood could've been rightfully kicked the fuck out of the army for being too fucking fat when I ran a class there back in the day.

>>35122320
And speaking of fitness, since I am not a fatbody, is the other fucking problem I have with the military, which is the lack of organized gym use. We have these fucking gyms everywhere, but they are for off time use only. Some proper squats and deadlifts would do a world of good for military fitness. Get soldiers on a modified 4x4 program. Less longterm injuries related to personal equipment weight by getting soldiers physically conditioned in a safe gym environment. It would save the Army millions of dollars in long term medical costs!

>But there are too many soldiers to use the gym all at once!
Then stagger PT hours for different units. Why the fuck does everybody have to do exercise at godawful early in the morning? What are non-deployed infantry guys doing that would prevent their unit from having PT scheduled at 11am or whenever? Or I don't know, maybe build more gyms- the Army employees fucking ManTek contractors for $100k a year to sit on their ass and fill out one piece of paperwork a month, maybe fire some of those turds to pay for it.

And any unit doing long distance body armor runs has their NCOIC beaten with a hose.

>>35121421
>Resting the handguard on a baguette
The gign has been stepping up their game it seems

>>35122096
Conspiracy time:

I think it's possible ((they)) want a more feminized and controllable military that isn't full of conservative males. One of the greatest challenges of a communist take over or insurrection of our government is our men in uniform.

>>35122398
>gyms

I don't agree, dude.

Squats? Do 2 and 4 man litter squats with your dudes. Too easy? Then do it in full kit. Gym weights are for ego's. The only weight assaulters need to hump is their kit, and their wounded comrades, and you don't need an Olympic weight set or machines to train them to do that, you just need your men, your kit, and motivated leaders.

Being able to carry or drag every man in your squad is not only a valuable combat skill, but it also develops teamwork, and is excellent for morale, because everyone KNOWS they won't get left behind.

>>35123010
>I think it's possible ((they)) want a more feminized and controllable military that isn't full of conservative males

Think?

I KNOW (((they))) want to purge the military from the evil of the "white man".

The fucking leftist scum have been trying to do that since Clinton was in office, Bush didn't do anything to change it, and the nigger just made it worse.

Our military is NO different now than the Soviet system with their political kommisars, except ours are called EO officers/NCO's.

>>35121421
>French rifles

>>35123010
This isn't even a conspiracy. (((They))) absolutely want to make sure you're defenseless against a communist takeover. The less middle/working class males that are in the military, the ones who actually give a shit about things other than gibsmedats, the easier it is for them.

>>35118735
If the mag is resting on a hard object, your zero will differ if its sighted using a "normal" shooting position.

One part of zeroing your rifle is your personal shooting positioning, and how you manage the recoil. This is most noticeable if you shoot long distance, where the zero can actually differ quite a lot.

>>35122136
I am familiar with this, i was an intel guy, my squad leader was a truck driver. And he made us do pt in full kit 5 days in a row up until a record pt test. I injured my back during the run, herniated discs, my buddy had a stress fracture on his knee, and another buddy had a torn ligament in his shoulder. We all got put on med hold and were medical retired 2-3 years later. Fucking wannabe combat nco ruined our military careers.

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>>35121948
NOICE

>>35123052
Chairforce gets hundred million dollar money burners but the military can't get some actual weights to train the men? come the fuck on

>>35124246
How does the mag resting on the ground have anything to do with the zero? These seem entirely unrelated.

>>35123010
The Soviet Union was pushing cancerous progressivism since the 1930s in Western society in general, this is just the effect of it trickling into another institution. Read up on Suicidalism and Gramscian Damage

>>35118808

It does if you're stupid and put a shit ton of weight on the mag. Most recruits are stupid.

>>35123052
I disagree, heavy barbell compounds are one of the most efficient ways to strength train. You can certainly approximate the movements using equipment you have on hand in a pinch but in an ideal world you'd have the weights as well. Look at high level athletes in boxing, wrestling, football, etc. Most of them do some form of barbell strength training even when their sport doesn't require that they lift anything heavier than themselves or another person their size.

>>35118808

they still tell them that at basic, it's because it was true for the M14 and the army never lets anything die

>>35118735
on any gun with a magazine with a less supported magwell it can cause feeding issues.

>>35118735
Bro I just use my SKS's bayonet folded downwards as a monopod.

>>35125646
except for its soldiers

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>>35122077

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Why not just switch to a levergun? The length of pull is the same! But I thought that height of the ground was evil ?????

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New Russian clips are monopods.

>>35127448
>clips

>>35122398
>PT scheduled
I fucking wish the Navy actually gave us our PT hours. For us its ONLY before or after working hours, never during, even though regulation says they have to give us 2 times a week on our own during working hours.

Kinda threw me for a loop now that I work directly for a army CW and leaving early for PT is still considered part of my job. Different worlds.

>>35125628
>Look at high level athletes in boxing, wrestling, football, etc.

Well rested, well fed, can train regularly in accordance to a precise schedule, and mostly on some kind of steroids. Soldiers? Not so much. Well, at least the grunts in decent units that actually train on the reg.

In garrison, I'll take a good set of chin-up bars any day over any weights, and in the field, it's litter drills when you have the down time and want to add some resistance. Soldiers should learn how to effectively train with their own kit, because that's all the need, and it will actually help them survive in combat and save their peers.

To each their own, but I'd rather take that gym money and convert it to ammo to train with, as I can get my guys in shape and keep them their with mission essential kit.

>>35125159
His argument is that any tension on the barrel, including resting it on a sand-bag, will impact the zero because of barrel flex, and he's correct, however, it's pretty much insignificant at the ranges most Joe's will shoot at, regardless.

>>35127655
How does resting the magazine, which is in the lower receiver and nowhere near the barrel put tension on the barrel? I'm legit asking.

I understand when people rest their barrel on a sandbag or put extreme tension on the handguards that it can have an effect, but I am honestly not seeing how magazine resting applies.

>>35127586
>For us its ONLY before or after working hours
Good.

>>35125646
It finally officially changed in 2016! Only took a few decades for the Army to catch up.

>>35127636
There's nothing about bodyweight training that makes it work better without adequate recovery but yeah obviously if you're in a unit that can't afford ammo that should be prioritized.
Also I'm probably a little biased because we had our own personal trainers that used to work for the NFL and shit

>>35124511
Prepare to litter carry.
Low carry, go.
High carry, go.
>x 20
Low carry, go.
High carry, go.
Overhead press, go.
>x 20
Overhead press and hold, go.
Squats, go.
>x 20
Rotate, go.
>rinse repeat until everybody has rotated through the first set of many
>watch the smug smile of weight lifting dudes disappear as their ass gets smoked the fuck up

Every time.

Weights are for ego's and civilians.

>>35121421
Hon hon hon

>>35127717
>How does resting the magazine, which is in the lower receiver and nowhere near the barrel put tension on the barrel? I'm legit asking.

It doesn't.

But, again, his argument is that barrel flex will impact your zero when, and if, you transition from using the mag as a monopod to using some kind of support, like a sandbag. Again, he's right, but it's largely insignificant at the ranges most will shoot at.

>>35127784
SCIENCE? SON IM A YOU ESS MUHREEN! I TELL U WOT I DONE HUMPED THAT SUNNUVABITCH SAW THRU 15 MILES OF SNOW AND DESERT IN THE SANDBOX! CIVVIE CIVVIE CIVVIE CIVVIE CIVVIE CIVVIE CIVVIE CIVVIE CIVVIE

RUCK TIL YOU DIE RUCK RIL YOU DIE RUCK ROAUSLKTU TILS.,SKN

>>35127784
Good to know in your magical play world that everyone assigned to the litter is the exact same height, with exact same arm and torso length.

Weight training helps train symmetry and proper form and movement so that when you do apply those muscles in out of range/awkward motions it has minimal negative effects on your body.

>>35127586
>have to give us 2 times a week

That explains why every sailor I saw aboard ship was either a fatty/twig or a wannabe body builder, with few in between, and most on the fatty/twig side of things.

>>35127830
Per Regulations it is 3 times a week, 1 command regulated and 2 on "your own". Reality is though that due to flight schedule/operational commitments, that turns into 1 command regulated a week (if that) and "fuck your PT get back to work counting thumbtacks".

That explains your Fatty/Twig routine as it pretty much puts majority of people where they natural metabolism is. The smokers/coke drinkers are walking skeletons and most of the regular guys start blowing up in size due to lack of PT. Those that do take their own time to workout manage it but they reeeaaally want to work out.

>>35127761
>nothing about bodyweight training that makes it work better

I don't agree. First, Joe is less likely to injure himself with bodyweight exercises. Second, it makes no sense developing a training program that relies on equipment you're not going to have in the field, or at the combat outpost in the middle of Fuckmyshitupistan somewhere down the road.

>>35127909
>at the combat outpost in the middle of Fuckmyshitupistan somewhere down the road.
You highly underestimate the ability of people to aquire or build their own weights in the field... especially when you have literally nothing but time.

Go to any place a marine has been for more than a week and suddenly there is a pull up bar there.

>>35127909
of course your training schedule is going to change in the field, deployments are a vacation, the training cycle is for hard shit.
I've never seen anyone get injured from barbell training, dudes get injured from stupid shit like 5 mile kit runs, private wars, and jumps

>>35127909
Just fucking stop posting, you're literally being the fitness analogue to "that guy" who thinks he's knowledgeable about guns because he learned how to (barely) shoot an AR on the taxpayer's dime.

Why you think climbing a 20+ foot tall rope net or jogging through uneven terrain with 90+ lbs of gear and armor plates is more safe than pressing a heavy object above your chest with a spotter and numerous ways to SAFELY drop the weights without injuring yourself is beyond me, but the idea that calisthenics is every bit equal to weight training when it comes to building strength is just fucking wrong.

>>35121421
i didn't laugh like this in a long time

top kek mon ami

>>35127829
So your argument is that weight training is better for litter training than.....litter training?

Dude, that's ridiculous.

Regardless, it's good to know that "in your magical play world," everyone assigned to the litter team in combat will have the exact same height, with the exact same arm and torso length.

That's not going to happen.

In my world, they're not going to have the luxury of deciding who gets to be on the litter team in combat, but that won't matter, because they'll be trained how to use the proper form and technique to conduct litter drills long before they ever hear a shot fired in anger.

>>35127909
>No giant gyms in the field.

No kidding you retard. But we are talking about organized garrison PT.

>>35127924
>suddenly there is a pull up bar there.

Right.

Which is a body weight exercise.

>>35127935
>never seen the "muh rotator cuff" profile

Seriously?

That's one of the most common injuries I've seen from gym heads.

>>35128019
Weight training if more efficient for building muscle and full range of motion than improvised field training.

Gym training gives you the muscles and field training gives you the technique. That's why liter carries are considered tactical training and not PT. You keep acting like everybody is talking about gyms in deployment when it's obviously about in garrison, where 99% of organized PT is.

>>35127784

You're one of those fudds that would charge into battle with an M1 attached to you by a single point parade sling and those black leather shell gloves because 'thats how your gran-pappy did it', aren't you?

>>35127975
>just fucking stop posting

Yea, you should.

>calisthenics

Because you're obviously too ignorant to even track the conversation. I never said shit about "calisthenics", but instead focus on body weight exercises that APPLY RESISTANCE, and can be done anywhere, using your own kit and body weight.

I don't need anyone that can squat or bench press big weight in a gym. I need dudes that can keep up while humping 90+ pounds of gear over uneven terrain from the hlz to the support by fire position, or the assault position, and squatting or bench pressing big weight in a gym has exactly jack and shit to do with that.

>>35128019
>So your argument is that weight training is better for litter training than.....litter training?
>they're not going to have the luxury of deciding who gets to be on the litter team in combat

That's the fucking point of having proper muscle symmetry, flexibility and range of motion that lifting weights in a safe environment enables a person to have. So that when you DO have Lebron James having to carry a litter with Frodo in a non-normal range of motion and awkward muscle positions, you don't injure yourself and have the necessary conditioning to keep going easily. The Gym training complements a proper skeletal and muscular structure that enables you to do the stressful and awkward shit without undue risk of injury.

Vice training the norm to be non-normal range of motions and awkward muscle positions to enable fuckers muscles to develop like Quasimodo.

>>35128050
>says guys can't get equipment in the field
>gets proven wrong
>DERP THATS STILL BODYWEIGHT DOESN'T COUNT

>>35118808
Also if you do this with an M1 Carbine, the trigger group will break

>>35128041
>talking about organized garrison PT.

Right. The same organized garrison PT you do with 100's of your closest friends in your company and battalion every day, all competing for territory and resources.

It's a lot easier, more efficient, and far more cost effective, to have some extra duty dudes install platoon chin up and dip bars in front of your company that you'll always have access to, than it is to support them all with Joe Weider Olympic weight sets and machines in some gym somewhere.

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>>35128068
>Weight training if more efficient for building muscle
Bullshit. Resistance is all that's needed to build muscle, and that can come from weights, gravity itself, or your body weight.

>improvised field training
Using weights would be "improvised", because you're substituting the reality of humping bodies and using your own body weight with a hunk of metal.

You have no argument.

Male gymnasts are muscular as fuck, and it's because they're constantly using body weight exercises that build up their muscle, which is exactly what soldiers should do.

>>35128100
No, I'm one of those dudes that'll use cardio training, a simple chin-up bar, body weight exercises, and squad kit, to turn you into a strong as fuck cardio freak capable of doing shit you didn't think you ever could.

>>35128344
caint get no GLUTES without them SQUATS chief
how you gonna suplex a noncompliant PUC into the ramp of an exfil bird without a
/fat/
/fit/
ASS

>>35128158
>That's the fucking point of having proper muscle symmetry, flexibility and range of motion that lifting weights in a safe environment enables a person to have.

Push ups, sit ups, chin ups and even formation running are all different for people due to their size, and yet nobody has EVER needed to use weights to train for those events because of different unique individual "symmetry, flexibility, and range of motion". They don't need weights for litter training, humping a ruck, or their crew served weapons, either.

>guys can't get equipment in the field
When you get to the point that you're trying to compare chin up bars in the field to weight sets, and machines, I know you have nothing more to offer and we're done.

>>35128480
>Push ups, sit ups, chin ups and even formation running are all different for people due to their size
All various activities that are done by a singular person that performs natural body movements.

>litter training
A movement done by a group of people of various body types and sizes that puts the body in awkward non-natural positions that is exasperated by the greater difference in persons doing the movement.

The top one promotes a persons body and capability for movement, the second without the first promotes Quasimodo.

Though regardless I already know your going to come back and yell about how it doesn't matter because I supposedly agreed with you that the first complements the latter, unfortunately your entire argument thus far as been "litter training, litter training, litter training, you can solve everything with litter training".

>>35121685
Jet fuel can't burn hot enough to melt baguettes!! WAKE UP SHEEPLE