Now that the army is planning to switch to .308, is the AR-15

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>>35026878
That's why they have 30 round magazines! You keep shooting until you hit something

>>35026878

Yes.

I hope so. Finding cheap .308 is hard as fuck.

What about tungsten carbide tipped bullets?

>>35026911
They will prolly make a 309 caliber then just to fuk with y'all

I'll take Shit That Will Never Happen for $200, Alex.

The Army floats trial balloons for this constantly. Nothing ever comes of it. Nothing will come of it this time. Nothing will come of it next time. Nothing will come of it ever.

>>35026878

Are you all retarded?

>Most Americans buying an AR for prepping

Wrong

>5.56 doesn't penetrate level III and IV

Wrong

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>>35026937
Shhhh let the BIGGAR BOOLIT crowd hope.

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They are getting a 7.62mm battle rifle, as a means of having a bunch of reciever sets that can transfer to a 6.5mm caliber easily. Something like the SCAR-H. 7.62mm is completely different to .308. To answer your question, no, .308 won't become cheap. 7.62mm will, and only for a little while. It won't happen for years, either. There's still a solid decade ahead of us where in 5.56mm will be the ideal caliber to hoard.

>>35026937
The specifics make it obvious they're using it as some kind of bargaining chip.
>No seriously don't invest any R&D into this we're not buying

Honestly factoring in the extra weight and recoil if still rather be able to penetrate center mass V.S only be able to damage non vitals with 5.56. Bullets are not magical and a man shot in the upper leg may die eventually but can still inflict a mortal wound. You need a CNS or massive shock trauma to center mass for instant incapacition and a man wearing a level III plate just denied the ar 15 it's biggest target

>>35026950
To be fair, you are correct most Americans are only buying ARs to show to their buddies and fondle softly

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Isn't the whole point of the 7.62 request is to go toe to toe with near peers who have body armor? Also to counteract forces who have RPDs and left over Lee Enfields in Afghanistan?

5.56 ain't dead. It's just getting supplemented in the squad.

>>35026878
>Now that the army is planning to switch to .308

Except they are not.

>>35026937
They do the trials, show that yes, a three kilo rifle is easier and handier to use then a five kilo rifle, pat themselves on the back and not change anything.

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Military rep here.
We want a 7.62 rifle that is as light as the 5.56, shoots as accurately as the 5.56 and has ammunition as light as 5.56 with recoil similar to the 5.56
Why aren't you fulfilling our contract?

>>35026878
>is the AR-15 obsolete

Are you engaging threats wearing level IV body armor at 500+ yards in the mountains of Afghanistan? Then no

>>35027044
We can do that, it's just a matter of cost.

>>35026973
>Something like the SCAR-H.

You mean an HK417 derivative.

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>>35027058

We want it cheap, we want it fast and we want it good.

>>35026973

I remember the Sniper Wolf boss battle. Perhaps my favorite boss battle of all time. Them wolf howls after the battle bro. Feels...right in the feels.

>>35027071
Image not related.

>>35027071
Judging from your pictures, it seems like what you actually want is a weapon that was out of date 100 years ago.

>>35027013
The point of the 7.62 rifle is the absurd quest for overmatch without regards to what the implications for individual soldiers are. Hey soldier here is another 10 pounds of gear, what you are out on disability because your knees are fucked up? Just hit the gym you pussy.

>>35027104
Keep in mind that we'll be using the guns to transition to 6.5mm as well.

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This is now an HCAR thread

Why not give everyone LMGs? Too expensive?

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It's not that the army is switching to .308 the so therefore it's a good choice, the army is just realising that the ar 15 is the new SMG.

The fall of the SMG was due to the widespread prevalence of Kevlar.

.308 rifles can now weigh in around 8lb vs 6lb for the ar 15. A 1.3x in weight leads to almost x2 the ft/lb.

If armor becomes common place then obviously the ar 15 is over

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"F"

>>35027140
The m4 is a carbine, not a rifle. Most of the problems with 5.56mm are coming from the lack of velocity the barrel provides.

>>35027152
It's never going to be used. It's far too heavy.

>>35027153
Even the 14.5" barrel of the M4 can keep M855 at velocities needed to fragment at about 150 yards.

>>35027140
>The fall of the SMG was due to the widespread prevalence of Kevlar.
It's actually because an intermediate caliber carbine can do everything a pistol caliber carbine can and more, but sure, we'll go with your retarded story.

>>35027013
The interm battle rifle is for a only for a brigade and is to field their new AP ammo (not fully developed). They could apply the same tech to 556 but that would be too efficent for Big Army buerrcrats.

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HEAVY
COMBAT
ASSAULT
RIFLE

Stoppin powah!

>>35026878
5.56 is such a useless, underpowered round I'm glad Army is wising up.

>>35027117
One Internet rumor is that 6.x mm is the end goal. It just so happens that 7.62x51 rifles are easier to sell to bean counters as a prospective buy.

>>35027161
a 20" A1 sends M193 right through IIIA

>>35027169
>and more
like going through kevlar?

>>35027198
So does just about any rifle round.

>>35027161
Yes, well, we need it to do that at 700m, too.

>>35027180
*COUNTER

>>35027169
Would you rather clear your house with an SMG, or a carbine?

>>35027169
Think about the effectiveness on a guy in full body armor and a helmet, all level 3a. SMG basically can only to true tissue damage to face legs and arms, where as the carbine can penetrate the armor like butter, that may not be the only reason( the other being range) but the SMG is far more controllable, if it wasn't for the armor and tissue factor I think the SMG would still be a good choice.

It's armor vs projectile arms race that's been going since leather and bows

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What if we had every man in the squad carry a SAW so that everyone is a SAW gunner?

>>35027237
Yeah, why not? Seriously.

LMGs have range, power and accuracy. They are the perfect weapons.

>>35026950
can you actually show me a video of 5.56 defeating level IV armor?

>>35027263
Why do you need visual evidence that could easily be faked?

>>35027218
A carbine, you dipshit. 55gr isn't doing jack shit after two layers of sheet rock compared to 124gr 9mm or fucking 230gr .45.

By the way, I have brick interior walls, live by myself and have homeowner's insurance. Nice appeal to emotion, though.

>>35027235
>ARs are uncontrollable and wildly inaccurate.
That summary of your inexperience is my response to you.

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>>35027218
I don't feel safe clearing my house with anything less powerful and a belt fed .308 . What if a team of coked up methheads in full rifle plate armor are breaking into my house to shake and bake????

>>35027198
>rifle round
>IIIA
Who would've of fucking figured.

>>35027263
>can you actually show me a video of 5.56 defeating level IV armor?

he can show you videos of 5.56 penetrating shitty "level IV" armor

>>35026878
The AR-15 would having 7.62 models, which last I checked, has been going on for some while.

>>35027291
>>35027269
I'll even take a fake one, ive never seen a video of anything short of APM2 loaded in .300 winmag defeating level IV armor on the first shot

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>>35027071
Why is every gun related ad picture the same?

>Over roided beef cake with cringe worthy fucking tats or Coal burning gun bunny

Does that shit actual sell?

>>35027218
Neither. I fetch up my sword and shield and challenge the intruder to holmegang.

>>35027207
>>35027289
.308
5.56 from a carbine length barrel
7.62x39
all stopped by III plate

m193 20" barrel goes through

velocity^2

>>35026878
One: AR-15/AR-10 can use .308

Two: US military ain't replacing M-1r's or 5.56x45 Untill telescoping ammo is realible enough to be the next big thing in forearms technology.

Caseless is dumb and be it DI or Piston, firearms have reached the ceiling of development and the only future beyond is miniature rail gun technology and or battery power capable for laser guns.

>>35027270
The SMG would still be better than the carbine. It would be more compact and controllable.

>>35026878
I mean, do you even understand why preppers pick the AR15 and 5.56 for stockpiling/prep purposes?

>>35027394
manlet that doesn't get poon confirmed

>>35027562
Height was the first thing that game to your head, huh? You're not insecure at all.

>>35027312
>on the first shot
well thats the thing with intermediate cartridges is that the recoil is light enough that its usually coming with some friends.
I am a big proponent of "volume of fire>penetrating power" personally.

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>>35026878

I don't get this argument. 7.62 can't penetrate level III or level IV armor either, at least without using AP (which you can get in 5.56 as well).

The only unique anti-armor capability from the larger caliber is being able to use sabots, which don't feed well in magazine-fed automatic rifles and are inaccurate and ineffective outside close range.

>>35026878
This will be about as effective as the individual carbine trials.

>>35026911
Annoying, yes, hard as fuck?
Not really.

>>35027218
I would much rather clear my home with an smg because it small and more maneuverable than a full length AR. I would give anything for a group of thugs to break in and have an mp5 or vector to clean shit up.

>>35026973
7.62x51mm is not connected to 308? They are interchangeable in any decent gun. Unless you have a finicky marksman rifle but if you do why the fuck did you get it chambered in 308?


7.62 NATO and 308 win prices are connected because whichever one becomes cheaper will be the only one that sells.

>.243 Winchester. Titanium core projectiles.

>>35027237
Becuase LMGs are good for holding territory but not good for assaulting since they're so heavy.....unless we Motherfucking shoot gnarly steroids into every grunt so they can bound into enemy territory carrying LMGs like SMGs. Which is disconcerting that that hasn't happened yet. Hodgie would shit himself to death with fear.

>>35027306
eh, not 7.62x51, there is the AR-10 though, which does.

Let's go back to 30-06, in for a penny in for a pound, right?

>>35027993
I have a carbine length 7.62 NATO rifle as my home defense. I can easily kill any intruder even a roaming pack of shaquille o'neals but I can also shoot my wife in the head through the wall and kill all my pets too. I need a new hd weapon.

>>35026973
>7.62mm is completely different to .308

Except that any gun chambered for one will chamber the other because they use the same case because .308 is based on 7.62 NATO.

>>35027273
Then you live in a borderlands game and need to ease up on the drugs yourself.

>>35028103
>He doesn't want to live in a crazy low-gravity alien mad max world where you can literally pull a gun out of someone's ass

>>35027013
Fighting hadjis with Enfields/svd's in deserts is why the army is trying to develop a .338 Norma Mag machine gun with no more recoil than the m240. A .308 rifle, i have no idea.

Why wouldn't they consider a 6.5 creedmoor? Far more superiority in range and all...

Less recoil too so wouldn't that be a win as well?

>>35028133
I believe the US military is looking at a 6.5mm cartridge in the future, whether that will be the 6.5 Creedmmor has yet to be seen.

http://www.businessinsider.com/us-army-marines-infantry-rifle-ammunition-changes-2017-5

We'll see where this leads.

>>35027000
>to show to their buddies and fondle softly
am i supposed to fondle the AR softly or the buddy?

>>35027213
That's what GPMGs are for.

>>35027633
it's about range

>>35028185
If you are not a fag? Both

I think an AR in .243 Winchester represents a real armor penetrator round.

>>35028185
Yes

The true redpill is that we need a new World War to have genius new weapon technology. Right now it's mongrels versus shitskins in sandniggerland, nothing will come out of it.

WW3 WW@

>>35028092
>nigga breaks in the house
>anon fires his HOME DEFENSE 308
>BANG
>eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeEEEEEeeeeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Is there any evidence whatsoever of the Army wanting to move to .308 across the board? Because even with the rumor mill I haven't seen that. I figured that they only wanted to replace the SDM rifle.

>>35027104
5.56 already overmatches soviet 7.62x54
Effective range of M249 - 800 metes
maximum range of PKM LMG - 600 meters (this is max range soviet and russian conscripts shoot PKM during training and qualification)
Slavshit BTFO.

>>35027152
the man on the left is too british looking to be holding that gun. Delete this image immediately, red coat.

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>>35028780

there's an app for that

>>35027050
Nigga they got fucking giants over there!

>>35027050
>Never shoot a large caliber man with a small caliber bullet.

>>35027153
This is only a thing for ammunition that requires a very high velocity to reliability fragment like M193 or M855. Newer ammunition like Mk318 or M855A1 doesn't suffer from carbine length barrels.

>>35028773
If ww3 is anything like ww1 or ww2; as in the nations involved bludgeon each other to death using up precious resources and costing millions of lives. Then ww3 would be so withering, there wouldn't be much of anything left. Modern military tech is exponentially more effective at killing then the tech during ww2. Imagine fleets of ac130 like crafts flying over your city, where you can't see or hear, raining instant death night and day on anything with a heat signature? Walking outside to a public place and seeing an attack. which would just be people silently turning into flying bits of shredded meat all around you. The devastation would be like nothing the planet has ever seen.

>>35028780
Yeah okay. But shaquille O'Neal would drop my tv in a hurry and I won't have to listen to my wife whine like a child over bullshit like quiche any more....if it deafens me so be it.

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>>35029530
A fleet of AC130's for one city? Good luck with that. How long can one of those be operational before they need to refuel? How much ammo do they have?

How many are available for domestic or international use? Where are they stationed? Do you have pilots and crewmen ready? What would be the end goal of hovering above one city?


The cost does not justify the means.

>>35028780
i laughed on this one.

I have an AR 10, and when I take it to the range I wear Army issue earplugs and my over the ear protection. I have no fucking idea how loud it would be without hearing protection, but I am betting really fucking loud.

>>35028780
It's like clowns who have a dual/triple port brake on an home defense rifle, you are not going to enjoy the after effects of firing that in a hallway without earpro.

>>35029555
>Shaquille ONeal
He CCs a mk23 and shoots it damn well.
If he's breaking into your house, just fucking run

>>35027044
>>35027058
>>35027071
Don't forget, it has to perform like a 6.5 creedmoor or better.

You can just get an AR in .308

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>>35029615
>308
stop going for the mediocre of all sniper rounds and do something different

>>35029576
Shaq is actually a fairly good shooter

>>35028075

>Hodgie

You mean Haji?

>>35027394

Lol, you can totally get that big without roids.

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yes

>>35029559
You're pretty naive to the logistics of war aren't you? The US can and does move its entire fleet across the globe and has thousands of hundred million dollar jets flying around shooting down drones for exercises that they do all the time. During war, setting up the support system to make ac130 attacks possible would be a cinch. Look at the ungodly amount of resources the US expended island jumping in ww2 and think that the US has way more resources now then it had then and so does every competing nation.

The purpose of ac130 like craft mowing down civilians? Reducing morale and creating fear and doubt in the populous which can create turmoil and unrest. And in world wars there really are no innocents. All civilians contribute to propping up a nation's wartime economy. striking the civilians means reducing the ability for a nation to effectively feed the incredibly wasteful and hungry war machine. Thereby creating shortages and maybe hungry under-equipped infantryman.

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>>35027123
HCARs give me massive amounts of wood

>>35029576
I've seen a laker game or two back in the day. if there's one thing I'm sure is that shaq can't shoot for shit.

>>35027044
>We want a 7.62 rifle that is as light as the 5.56, shoots as accurately as the 5.56 and has ammunition as light as 5.56 with recoil similar to the 5.56
Literally the SCAR-H and they already have it.

Muh carry capacity

Muh hearing

Jesus you sound like a bunch of girls, does carrying that "heavy" ar 10, 25 feet to the range bench wear you out?

>>35027169
>caliber
Cartridge, you fuck.

>>35029699
Literally 58% field goal percentage for his career.

>>35029728
You have no idea what the topic is but felt the need to contribute.

>>35029743
>field goal
>basketball

I was unaware of shaqs handegg career

>>35027180

I hate the people who like these things, a 300WM Nemo would shit on it every category probably including recoil.

>>35026911
gunbot.net/ammo/rifle/308/

>>35027263
It only happens with a 20" barrel, but yes it does happen

>>35026878
This whole thread is intellectually degenerate, you have no brain to speak of much like the strawmen you present us with

>>35029830
You literally can't be this retarded.

>>35030014
would you rather have 30 rounds that cant penetrate your opponents armor or 20 rounds that can?

>>35028836
>he doesn't know what a dough-boy looks like
Underage pls go

>>35029851
Free lesson nogunz: 300win mag and 30-06 are two different calibers with different specs. 300 win mag recoil is a magnitude stronger than 30-06 or 308 because its a sharpshooters and bolt action hunters round with ballistics to match. 30-06, 308, and 7.62 rimmed are decent marksman rounds and can achieve better accuracy than most people can shoot but 300 win mag is for super accurate long distance shooting. So of course the nemo firing 300wm is going to shit on it in accuracy and distance. You're comparing a McLaren mp1 to a ford mustang

Do you own a nemo? I bet the recoil still sucks. At least with a 30-06 like the hcar follow up shots are easy and quick to set up.

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/PQqwyVgZVXs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

6lb of rifle that can't penetrate or 8lb of rifle than can, i know what i'm carrying

>>35030016
Nobody says field goal and 58% sucks. Don't get technical stats from the internet and then assume you're a savant

I can't believe that people still think the Army is going to switch the standard service rifle to .308. The DoD may throw out a few small contracts here and there but the Army just wants to play with some new toys and spend some money that has to be spent.

>>35030090
Here's a (You)

>>35026950
> tfw when a dipshit is confusing 5.56 with 7.62

5.56 will pen soft body armor all day but fails at ar500 plate steel. For that you need 7.62 armor piercing rounds

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>>35030126

>"switch"
They want more squad organic 7.62s for Afghanistan. The 5.56 isn't going anywhere.

>>35030064
>belted cartridge
>super accurate
Oh anon

We wouldn't need these trials if we'd just get the fuck out of Aghanistan

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browning also makes a BAR that's chambered in 300 win mag for like a 10th the price, but this is sexy

>>35030145
>still no evidence of 5.56 getting through level 4

>>35030145
Show proof of a 5.56 piercing a level III ar500 plate and I'll admit defeat. If not then gtfo dipshit.

>>35030192
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMYkEMhPsO8

We gonna see some AR-10 derivatives?

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>>35026878
It has to just be trolling at this point. There's no way you niggers are so dumb that you still think the m4 is being replaced.

I don't understand this HCAR meme

>>35030211
Probably nothing new

>>35030234
Wont be as funny when you are under attack by an armored assailant and your puny gofer stoppers bounce off like BB pellets

>>35030235
Muh three nazis walk into a BAR

>>35030234
If the bad guys strap on plates, were dropping the m4

>>35030159
Yeah I'm sure it was the belt that ruined your grouping. Next it'll be the slight ambient temperature fluctuation that gave you an inconsistent lock up.

Belted becomes a problem if you're a competitive shooter and then the headspacing adjustment to fix it takes half an hour tops.

That's why military and police sharpshooters abandoned the 300 win mag... Oh wait they didnt, did they?

>>35030259
No, we're dropping M855.

>>35030285
This, it's M855 that is the issue.

>>35030126
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgYcwRSKS-A

>>35030201
Only the wound channel has done this. Can't find anybody else. Seen demolition ranch shoot different 5.56 rounds and never penetrated for example.

I smell bullshit.

>>35030295
>use proper AP ammo
>suddenly penetration is no longer an issue
Really gets the melon jellin'.

>>35030316
You asked for proof and I gave you proof.

>>35030342
1) Armor companies rate Level III plates up to .308.
2) Your "evidence" is only seen example of 5.56 penetrating level III armor.

2+2 doesn't equal 4 here. The evidence you have submitted is fake. Try again.

It's called M995.
Go to bed, children.

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.308 can push a 110 grain Barnes solid at 3350fps, that's in a whole different league than anything the 5.56 can offer.

almost 2800 fpe

>>35030281
Police use .308
Military is going .300 norma

>>35030545
Which police and military?

>>35030569
United States

>>35030569
http://soldiersystems.net/2016/06/01/ussocom-selects-300-norma-mag-for-asr/

>>35030569
http://m.policemag.com/article/599/sight-picture

>>35027123
That thing is a tacticool abortion. They kept hyping a lightweight version of their BAR that everyone has been looking for and damn near everyone was expecting a semi auto Colt Monitor. Then they come out with this shit pile and somehow they just barely manage to make it lighter than the Monitor while making it horrendously ugly.

>>35030606
And five grand

>>35027071
So get an AKM, it's that simple.

>>35029682
The US military has a grand total of 47 AC-130's and they are all extremely vulnerable to anti aircraft fire due to their size, lack of armor, and general inability to evade anything. Your pipe dream of hundreds of AC-130s loitering around a city is fucking retarded and you should feel ashamed of yourself for thinking about it. All it would take is a handful of fucking Manpads and you'd have multiple valuable and limited production aircraft falling out of the damn sky. If the US military wanted to attack a civilian center like a fucking retard they would just use fuel air explosives or lob cruise missiles into valuable infrastructure in the city.

>>35030674
we should have won the war in Afghanistan in 20 days if we had 10,000 loitering AC-130's loaded with 120mm cannons and a constant stream of airborne paras with HCAR's dropping into the terrorists zones

>>35030631
Can't forget it's high price! Hell if you want a boutique rifle a Nemo Omen Recon is about the same price, weighs less, has a longer barrel, and is chambered in 300 Win Mag. Hell the same price buys you an FG42 repro and at least that isn't a tacticool festival.

>>35030754
Right now some COD kid is furiously beating off to that idea, probably gonna light his dick on fire like a road flare.

>>35029721
SCAR-H being light lol

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>you bought an AR-15 with all the rails and p-mags and tactical mcthingys and your budget is completely blown but now to realize that it's obsolete because of the HCAR
>TFW

>>35030043
False dichotomy, the body armors that will stop M80A1 can be penetrated by 5.56 versions of the 7.62 ammo that can penetrate those armors.

>>35030285
We already dropped M855, welcome to 2010..

>>35030909
M855A1 doesn't work either

>>35029721
>SCAR-H
>light
The H literally stands for Heavy.

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>>35026878
>is the AR-15 obsolete?

>>35030434
>>35030953
NIJ level 3 is M80, M855A1 already outpenetrates it.

>>35031023
In your timeline does 110 grain .308 at 3350 fps not exist?

M80 ball is dead

>>35030854
8lbs isnt heavy

>>35031253
Those moved goalposts are delightful.

>>35031253
What ballistic coefficient is that 110 grain .308?

>>35031366

Comparing antiquated. 308 ball to cutting edge 5.56 is a meme.

Top grade AP .308 will out preform 5.55 any day especially if distance is factored in.

No where did anyone suggest m80 ball is the shit

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>>35026878
>getting rid of obsolete when introduced, shitty M14 rifles
>OMG THEY'RE GETTING RID OF THE 5.56. GET BETTER GUNS SKRUBS

>>35031374

Should be approx .305

>>35031578
>REEEEEEEE 556 CANT PENETRATE NIJ 3 ARMOR ONLY MODERN .308 LOADS CAN!!!

>>35031610
It's sub .3 which is awful.

>>35031635

Well that's just a commercially available

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/07/28/7-62mm-advanced-armor-piercing-bullet-unveiled-stiletto-systems/

https://youtu.be/YAvuA6ty5Pw

New .308 cuts threw IV armor like butter, find me a 5.56 that can do that, I'm waiting

>>35031594
>PTR91s get adopted as the new interim service rifle
>big army licks HK's delicious tears

>>35031711
M995

>>35031711
>tungsten
Tungsten in any caliber is going to punch through ceramic armor. Just one problem: the USA doesn't have enough tungsten to make it a realistic proposition for anything even approaching mass issue. Niche as niche gets.

>>35031681
>tungsten AP round with both a 7.62 and 5.56 version that go through NIJ 4 plate

>>35026911
steel case 308 is the same price as brass 5.56

ammoseek.com

>>35026973
>7.62mm is completely different to .308
No it isn't. The only major difference is head spacing tolerances are looser on .308.

>>35031810

Oh Yeah? But what about....

Muh range
Muh kenetics
Muh wind drift
Muh barrierblind

Also I bet you can't get an HCAR chambered in 5.56

>>35030674
>>35030674
You seem tense...is ww3 happening tomorrow? No. So current ac130 numbers are irrelevant. are combat talons and the like ever escorted by air superiority? Yes. So vulnerable ac130s can be protected. Is it impossible to upgrade the ac130 with armor and countermeasures? Yes. during wartime on a massive scale? That could be easily be done. It maybe not be the most effective but if you were trying to send a message and control the casualties an ac130 fits the bill. and it gives you a diplomatic out because it's not just complete devastation. this whole response is just "nuh uh".I really hurt your feelings when I questioned you, huh?

>>35027525

>caseless is dumb

You're right. Ammunition that's half the length, provides the same power and doesn't require an ejection port is sooooo dumb.

Caseless is great as a concept, it just needs further development. Eventually materials science will catch up and it will become practical. Saying something is dumb simply because we don't currently have the tech to make it work right? Now that's dumb.

And to say that firearms have reached the height of technology is literally retarded. Innovation is not (and luckily so) limited to YOUR imagination.

Advancements in recoil mitigation, accuracy, cyclic rate, durability, caseless ammo, and all the crazy shit that comes with advancements in materials tech, not to mention optics, smart bullets.... bitch I could go on for 10 paragraphs.

TL;DR

You're stupid and lack imagination

>>35031807
Well get it from canada

When .308 caseless happens the 5.56 is so toast lol

>>35031727
American military would just pretend to buy the g3 technical package until it was transferred and then when payment was due wave the middle finger in hk's face and say they never got it. Then start adopting American made g3s that have one or two cosmetic differences and deny the likely accusations.

>>35026911
I dunno, man. I bought 1000 rounds for 270.
It's federal xm8cl for $5/box

>>35031937
>caseless ammunition died because it has no mechanism for drawing heat out of the gun
>REEEEEEE YOU ARE JUST STUPID AND LACK IMAGINATION

>>35032003
You are thinking of China.

>>35031937
Caseless with a powder propellant won't ever go big, and shouldn't.

Caseless rail guns on a small scale? That I could get behind.

>>35026878
M193 penetrates right through lvl III so does m855a1 maybe even lvl IV. So you're wrong and you should be struck.

>>35032220
>M855A1 maybe even level IV
Nope. A well manufactured level IV ceramic plate should stop M855A1 and M80A1 EPR.

>>35030316
https://youtu.be/RD7NvKzzWFE
You can fuck off now. Lvl 3+ was designed for the purpose of stopping the m193 because it's too damn fast for ar500 to stop.

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>>35032150
Oh shit you're right they totally did that shit. America would get the package and when the bill was due use devgru to kidnap all the h&k execs (before gsg-9 finds out and gets the opportunity to stand around planning shit until all the hostages are dead) leaving a crashed experimental aircraft behind and 3 deaths 4 casualties from a grenade mistakenly lobbed into a hospital waiting room nearby. then present "evidence" of them being terrorists all along and waterboarding the shit out of them at gitmo until they agree.

No the. 308's superior penetration is meaningless because depleted unobtainium varmatier boolets can do level IV at point blank

>>35030316
Level III steel plates get BTFO by M193 consistently. But shhh don't yell that too loud. We don't want Antifa realizing their mistake.

>>35032251

Goddammit, after that vid I'm calling Ohio ordnance works for a special run of .223 HCARs,

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>>35032338

Level III antifa steel plate vs...

If the LSAT program works and the US adopts a rifle or LMG using telescoped rounds, do you think we'll see a switch in other militaries and arms manufacturers from traditional cased ammunition to telescoped ammunition? Is there any reason at all to not use telescoped rounds?

>>35027044
>Take .300 BLK
>Load 52gr aluminum boolits
Ta da.

>>35032335
But those are the kind of bullets being used to advocate 308.

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https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/308/products/308-winchester-79gr-high-velocity-close-quarters-ammo?variant=3708601284

Would this aluminum 79 grain bullet pene?

>>35032966
Contact bluefalcon on arfcom and ask him to test it.

>>35032966
Or contact Iraqveteran8888.

I'm pretty sure he's sponsored by lehigh and he does armor tests every now and then.

this guy does mostly gel tests>>35033005

>>35032966
>Would this aluminum 79 grain bullet pene?
No. Too soft.
Put a sub-caliber tungsten penetrator in the middle though and you've basically got a gnarly rifle equivalent to Russia's crazy 9mm armor-piercing 7N31 ammo, though.

>>35026904
>Effective range vs mag capacity argument
Have at it autists.

>>35032966
Now I'm curious. Are there any commercial available "totally not AP ammo guise" bullets on the market?

>>35033154
Steel tipped 5.45

>>35033195
>slavshit
ew no

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>>35033208
You can have gookshit if you prefer

>>35033234
That's not AP. I'm meant to ask more for commercial wildcat designs like Lehigh ammo.

>>35033262
What? X-tac is literally M885

>>35033296
M855 is not AP

>>35033128
Save them some time
.308

Muh range
Muh cavitation
Muh windrift
Muh barrier blind
Muh .30
Muh ftlb

5.56
Muh lightweight
Muh handling
Muh knees
Muh 30 rounders
Muh recoil

>>35033234
Shot that last week. Surprisingly good. I think I got it from PSA. Up to 8 boxes of ammo the shipping is still $8 or so.

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>>35033154

>>35026878
Glad I have a decent 308 bolt gun and decent 308 semi auto gun already! But, I have 15k rounds of sealed 5.56 already too. So, whatever. Even if the military does switch, 5.56 will be popular for a very long time.

>>35034836
id like to see those tested

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>>35026878
They're going for .308 as an interim round. While it may seem like the past few "interim" designs just became a permanent fixture, the next big thing in small arms is just around the corner.

Telescoping cased high-intermediate (6+mm caliber) rounds is what will kill the AR-15.

>>35027180
>Heavy combat assault rifle
You mean battle rifle

>>35033154
Anything steel core.
This is why they are banned from ranges, they punch through any berm and destroy steel targets in a single shot.

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>All this HCAR faggotry
S M A L L T I M E

>>35027071
If the army got it cheap, fast, and good, they would change something so it wouldn't be cheap, fast or good.

>>35030165
Where would the military get it's fucking heroin source from ? Geez, ppl

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>>35038154
Muh niggah.

>>35027506
there is a difference between "III" and "IIIa", all of the rifle rounds you mentioned will defeat IIIa
>>35030000
It happens with level III not IV.

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>>35026878
>people using steel cases in their AR
its like you want to screw up your gun

>>35027237
>What if we had every man in the squad carry a SAW so that everyone is a SAW gunner?
Beltfed AR carbine with a 16" barrel, nuff said.

>>35029641
no

>>35038234
>Where would the military get it's fucking heroin source from ?
The cartels in Latin America?

>>35038154

Oh my fucking god in heaven, what kind of Abomination is that??? What kind of retard created that fg42

>>35026878
.308 is ok in a hunting rifle, but shooting a mag of 30 or 20 would be shitty. The recoil is just too much and after 10 or so rounds my shoulder would wimp out. Don't any of you shoot .308?

>>35038674
Some of us aren't pussies

>>35026878
I mean it'll still work fine as a varmint gun and it'll almost certainly do the trick against anyone breaking into your home who isn't wearing armor, which is pretty much everyone that's not SWAT

If you're planning on shooting back against SWAT officers .308 will only marginally improve your chances of survival anyway before they set your house on fire

The amount of people who seriously don't know how tough class IV armor is, is astounding. Slightly less depressing is that they don't know how easy it is to make even tougher plates (ie XSAPI) though that is forgivable because it does come with enough cost in weight that it doesn't see any real use, yet. A bit too much propaganda over the years about how effective their 5.56 rifles really are (believe us!).