Where did the "kinetic energy dump" theory of wound

People were looking to find a scientific way to prove X caliber is better than Y caliber or Z version of heavy for caliber +p+.

All while thinking hydrostatic shock was a thing so therefore rounds with more energy were more damaging regardless of shot placement or penetration.

Nevermind that the human body is compressible, hydrostatic shock is virtually non existant with pistol rounds, and because both the target AND bullet deforming means the collision is the definition of elastic and therefore kinetic energy is not conserved.

I just like to make jokes that the extra KE dissipates as heat from friction and liquifies the target's heart, brain, and spine.

Gun owners are dumb and regular people dont science too well.

>>35015029
never heard of a specific starting source but IIRC it was originally based on observations of low game reacted to being shot with higher energy rounds(more likely to be DRT) and gained legitimacy through the works of certain medical professionals during WW2. Pretty big with that whole generation.

Fackler was a proponent of the opposite ideology, that ballistic pressure wave is a non factor even with higher energy round. He was a medical professional with experience from vietnam i believe.

>>35015531
>bullet deforming means the collision is the definition of elastic and therefore kinetic energy is not conserved.

huh? what does deformation have to do with determining if a collision is elastic/inelastic?

Isn't an elastic collision one where no energy is lost? like gas particles or w/e

>>35015531
>hydrostatic shock
Is a meaningless buzzword. Hydro means water. Static means still. Shock means a sudden, violent blow. The third word sounds right, but hydrostatic is just a buzzword meant to make the speaker sound unscrutable and therefore smart.
>>35015548
This.

>>35015609
Deformation means it's an inelastic collision. Deformation takes energy. Thus, kinetic energy is not conserved, but momentum is.

>>35015643

Hysrostatic shock was an attempt to say that the pressure wave of a round entering a body allowed a bullet with high enough KE to do more damage than the wound tract and the tissues it crushes.

That the pressure wave would dislodge the ascending aorta or induce a rupture and stroke in the brain by ripping blood vessels.

Now this effect can happen like in proximity to explosions that dont penetrate liquifying your insides, but pistol calibers just dont have the requires oomph.

To put it in perspective, an average human punch has more KE behind it than a .44.

>>35015643
>Is a meaningless buzzword. Hydro means water. Static means still. Shock means a sudden, violent blow. The third word sounds right, but hydrostatic is just a buzzword meant to make the speaker sound unscrutable and therefore smart.
Oh, it's this fag again.

Fyi, it's supposed to be inscrutable.

>>35015029
>Did Martin Fackler start that nonsense?

Except it's not nonsense. Causing ballistic trauma requires energy, and the more energy you expend over an area the more damage you do. There' a reason hollowpoints that convert all their kinetic energy into trauma cause more severe wounds than FMJs that only convert a small portion.

>>35015771
def couldn't have anything to do with them like, idk, being physically larger than the fmj or anything.

That'd be crazy. It's just all dem energies in the tissue

>>35015734
I know what people are trying to refer to when they say that. I just think there needs to be a more accurate word for it. Just calling it shock would suffice for me.
>>35015739
Unscrutable is also in the dictionary.
>>35015771
>Causing ballistic trauma requires energy
I agree.
>>35015771
>and the more energy you expend over an area the more damage you do
That's where you're wrong. Flesh is elastic. It can stretch quite a lot before it tears.
>>35015771
>There' a reason hollowpoints that convert all their kinetic energy into trauma cause more severe wounds than FMJs that only convert a small portion
That reason has more to do with larger and flatter impact area.

>>35015771

So people who bump their hand against a moving ship weighing 100,000 tons moving at 1 knot just explode and turn inside out.

Them kinetic energies man.

And since equal and opppsite reaction and all that your hand then punches through the ship's hull and knocks the engine out the back if it.

Science bitch.

>>35015802

If the FMJ stops in the human body, ALL of its KE has been expended.

However, if the FMJ bounces off your target it imparts more force to your target.

>>35015029
It's not complete nonsense, but it's not an accurate way of determining wounding potential. The logic is that if you have to predict how damaged a human body will be, then it should be proportional to the amount of energy imparted to the body. The only problems were that all of the energy doesn't get imparted, bullet design and shot placement has a big effect on how much does, and the behavior of bullets in the human body isn't linear with increasing energy but is relatively insensitive at lower handgun velocities and much different at higher rifle velocities. The logic makes sense if it wasn't based on faulty assumptions, but it was the best they knew to do at the time.

>>35015882
>FMJ bounces off your target
Not going to happen unless the target is water or steel.
>>35015887
>The logic makes sense if it wasn't based on faulty assumptions, but it was the best they knew to do at the time.
Unfortunately, the idea hasn't completely died out yet. You still see energy figures printed on the backs of boxes of ammo.

>>35015887

Part of it was also that early hollow points REQUIRED higher velocities and therefore more kinetic energy in order to deform and create the wider wound channel and crush more tissue.

The kinetic energy argument was just an easy mathematical model that had way more importance put on it than it should have.

Like how .22 has far less energy than .357 and .45 and the former is not a terribly effective self defense round but the latter are.

This however does not mean that .357 and .45 are 5 to 6 times more effective than .22 or that the entire argument is bunk if the larger calibers hit an extremity while the .22 hits COM and penetrates deep enough to reach life supporting structures.

>>35015863
Except you're disregarding multiple elements of physics such as momentum and pressure distribution.

>>35015928

Because there is a difference between .38 special and .357 despite using the exact same bullet.

Now that higher velocity just so happens to correlate with more rapid expansion and deeper penetration and it's easy to see how someone could say KE is the end all be all of terminal ballistics.

>>35016007

Except not.

To say momentum kills you would have to believe that a punch to the solar plexus does as much damage as a point blank .44 magnum.

And pressure waves are bullshit because human tissue is elastic enough to absorb many times the energy of large caliber rifle rounds, much less modestly powered pistol rounds.

In effect, see that post again. There is no point where you can tought KE and momentum as the primary method of damage and NOT also believe the slow moving ship example.

Kinetic energyfags are like people who say you can wear out a magazine spring by keeping it loaded.

Sure they say they believe it, but they dont go to the hospital to get an MRI for brain trauma due to the hydrostatic shock of dropping a hammer on their foot nor do they put their car on blocks every night to prevent their suspension from taking a set.

>>35015643
Static meaning static pressure, which is the pressure wave, as opposed to dynamic pressure, which is the high pressure from the hydrodynamic (think aerodynamic) pressure of the shot.

The word stands, the science jury is out still