What's the deal with these? They're such a common representation

File: 15th malchus.jpg (54KB, 305x500px) Image search: [Google]

54KB, 305x500px

These swords (generously speaking) do seem to be a result of western fiction and art more than any real sword. Depending on how far back the lineage goes the original prototype may perhaps even be a European messer or falchion, more or less twisted by the artist because those strange foreign folks gotta use strange foreign swords, right? Either way, whatever it may have started as is probably of minor importance, instead you start getting artists copying each other, and with that the Chinese telefax kicks off, rapidly distorting whatever it once may have been into, well, that.

>>34960070
>Where did these swords come from?
from orientalists watching too much aladdin

>>34960070
I could see it in limited use as an executioner's sword, but not as a common weapon.

File: hello yes.jpg (339KB, 683x675px) Image search: [Google]

339KB, 683x675px

>>34960129
http://sevenstarstrading.com/site/hanwei/dadao/

File: KILIJ.jpg (72KB, 850x698px) Image search: [Google]

72KB, 850x698px

>>34960070
Pretty much just a fictional thing, only real broad-blade from the scimitar group of swords is something like the Kilij
Its just too front heavy and unwieldy to be useful

>>34960142
That's more like a short-hafted glaive, though.

File: khopesh_by_odinblades-d2y4b6m.jpg (252KB, 900x675px) Image search: [Google]

252KB, 900x675px

>>34960198
Execution weapons could get pretty weird, to be honest. Like khopesh.

Some would be capable of calling it a sword when it really is nothing more than a really fancy-looking axe for executions and parades.

>>34960222
On today's episode of "Look what anon just pulled out of his ass"
>Some would be capable of calling it a sword when it really is nothing more than a really fancy-looking axe for executions and parades.
More after the break.

File: Khopesh.jpg (79KB, 1920x590px) Image search: [Google]

79KB, 1920x590px

>>34960257
Apparently with a cute but dumb as bricks anime lady in her early 20s as a co-host.

File: 669942492bf38a60d584f7c62b4c44ec--bang-bang-google-search.jpg (24KB, 460x307px) Image search: [Google]

24KB, 460x307px

>>34960282
Some would be capable of calling it a rifle when it really is nothing more than a really fancy-looking musket for executions and parades.

>Where did these swords come from?
Cartoons, where dimensions are purposely not realistic, for stylistic reasons.

Next you'll tell me that you can't actually dig to China, or a gun won't explode if I stick my finger down the barrel.

File: 1503329224425.webm (3MB, 800x450px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 800x450px

>>34960070
>>34960328
This largely, look how they represent a lot of Euro swords with super exaggerated, almost coffin shaped blades.

I'm not going to pretend to be a sword expert but the shape seems to have its advantages when fighting the unarmored. Id personally rather learn to use a longer arming sword for the reach and multipurpose ability but easterners rarely wore armor probably because of the heat. Webm releated, couple the skill with a small shield and I'd imagine you'd be a pretty efficient killer.

>>34960397
>easterners rarely wore armor
[citation needed]

File: 750dbbc7d106e695a7396b2d8e0a8030--sassanid-ancient-persian[1].jpg (57KB, 500x811px) Image search: [Google]

57KB, 500x811px

>>34960397
>>34960479

>>34960397
>>34960479
>>34960498
Medieval arab swords were straight. The middle eastern sabre became prominent at the same time as gunpowder. (As to why sabres then had to be introduced to westerners from the east... I guess sabres were always regarded more highly there, partly because of more cavalry, partly because of indeed less armor being worn.)

>>34960397
Peasantry rarely wore armor
>FIFY

File: 10302300676_17ac909ebf_c.jpg (146KB, 529x800px) Image search: [Google]

146KB, 529x800px

>>34960595
And peasants rarely fought all that much. For the middle ages we instead see a warrior caste shoulder most of that burden, that is to say, knights and their retainers. As their dominance vanes towards the end of that period, the peasantry rarely takes up a place on the battlefield directly, instead when they do it's a matter of a career change from farmer to professional soldier, and even there the mercenary forces tend to consist largely of city-dwellers with a background in the city militia.

File: Hacha_danesa.jpg (42KB, 320x1817px) Image search: [Google]

42KB, 320x1817px

>>34960070
I think a sword like that would actually be horrifically dangerous against unarmored opponents if the blade is made extremely thin where it flares out. It'd be the sword-equivalent of a Dane Axe

>>34960328
Not just modern tools either

A lot of how we picture weapons and armor comes from artists that have never seen a battle, drawing battles, a hundred years after they happened, based on the tales passed down by the people in such a way as to also flatter the persons family/kingdom that comissioned the art

File: 1503331286462.webm (3MB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 1280x720px

>>34960579

Ah that makes sense

>>34960479
>>34960498

I know it existed but I always thought heavier armor at least was a lot more rare compared to the west.

>>34960657

I've picked up bits of true historical weapon and infantry use but I'm not well versed and some things online arent detailed enough or conflict with other sources. I'd assume peasants were rarely worth the costs of getting to a battlefield but were used in defense. How did the equipment change from the average peasant recruited to mercenary status and did they pay for their own equipment? Was a man at arms a higher rank than a mercenary and were they born into that position or trained? Also, do you know what knights were paid for a battle or were they just expected to serve the king?

File: File0002.jpg (755KB, 1948x1340px) Image search: [Google]

755KB, 1948x1340px

>>34960869
>I'd assume peasants were rarely worth the costs of getting to a battlefield but were used in defense.

Well, at least they did fight in defence at times, largely because they didn't like whoever it was they were defending against. Their success in this role varied considerably, but as big a deal as people made of peasants (or for that matters, burgers) successfully fending off knights, such was probably the exception.

Issues with bringing peasants to war is that nobody minds the farm while they're gone (which can end up being forever), that they are of questionable use on many battlefields, but they still need food, drink and shelter on the march just like more worthwhile troops.

The equipment of both peasants and mercenaries would vary considerably. In the former case there would probably be a pretty direct connection to the status of peasants in the region, so you see Swedish peasant levies in the early 16th century for example armed about as well as the landsknecht regiments they fought. In the parts of Europe where the rank of peasant was closer to that of a slave picthforks and clubs might be the best they could muster.

File: _MG_1461.jpg (328KB, 1226x816px) Image search: [Google]

328KB, 1226x816px

Lords supplying their troops with arms and armour on a mass scale began in, hm, 14th century was it? That's also around when the mercenaries start to become a major factor. I'm not sure how mercenary units were usually supplied, but I suspect that you'd see a mix between the soldiers buying their own (or filching from the town armoury as they left), and them being supplied by either the company or a a nobleman. Apart from a hastily assembled mob, the equipment level for infantry (be they peasants that actually have a chance, or hardened mercenaries) often ends up being a helmet, body defence (a thick gambesson, mail hauberk, plate cuirass, or some mix, how common this or that is varies over time), missile weapon (town militias quickly grew fond of firearms, and as they got recruited as mercenaries they were instrumental in making them weapons of the battlefield) or polearm and a sidearm, usually a sword of some sort.


Man at arms isn't a period rank or title, it's a modern day term that simply sums up all the fighters who were equipped and fought like knights. This is so you can describe the forces in an army or battle without worrying about who held what title. They could be actual knights, squires, mercenaries, or wealthy burgers doing their thing in the city militia.

Knights were supposed to serve their feudal lord, which could be the king or a lesser nobleman. Medieval politics being quite a mess, someone who was the king of one place could also be the duke/count/bigwig of a different region, and in that role be the feudal vassal of some other king or emperor. However, as high ranking members of the army knights would have had somewhat preferential treatment when it came to the distribution of loot, and through much of the high and late middle ages fighting also meant you had the chance to capture enemies for ransom. The sums paid in ransom for high ranking noblemen could be astronomical, so this was a considerable source of motivation.

File: harness-jack-chains02[1].jpg (34KB, 450x600px) Image search: [Google]

34KB, 450x600px

>>34961017
Jack plate (gambesons with plates sewn into the interior) and jack chains were also decent poverty armor items.

>>34961017
>Medieval politics being quite a mess, someone who was the king of one place could also be the duke/count/bigwig of a different region, and in that role be the feudal vassal of some other king or emperor.

>Richard I (8 September 1157 – 6 April 1199) was King of England from 6 July 1189 until his death. He also ruled as Duke of Normandy, Aquitaine and Gascony, Lord of Cyprus, Count of Poitiers, Anjou, Maine, and Nantes, and Overlord of Brittany at various times during the same period.

>The most celebrated King of England was a French noble who saw it as a coffer to fund castles and wars elsewhere

>>34961006
>>34961017

Thank you anon, you're very helpful. Would it be accurate to say that as time went on swords and plate armor became more common but in the 14th century, the well armed mercenary would likely have a pole weapon and an axe/mace/knife/or short sword as a sidearm?

I'm mostly interested in the periods before gunpowder in the west. I know it sounds dorky but I made a turn based game in a fantasy world but using only real, more commonly used equipment. Most people like it but I want to perfect it a bit more with gear in between the peasant and the knight which is the wealth level players will spend most of their time.

>>34961072

This is perfect

>>34960869
>heavier armor
As in plate? Because it's not like the only states of armor are nothing and plate. Plate being relatively rare (which I'm not even sure it was although that doesn't seem unlikely) is not the same as armor being relatively rare. EVERYONE had mail, I think the Japanese were the last to get it and it was in widespread use over there by the mid-1300s.

>>34960665
I think a sword like that would actually be horrifically dangerous against unarmored opponents if the blade is made extremely thin where it flares out. It'd be the sword-equivalent of a Dane Axe

well... sure. and a modern wood splitting maul would be extremely deadly to armored and unarmored opponents. but it's extremely unwieldy.

Swords strength are generally in their balance and lightweight. all that extra mass at the tip makes the sword less nimble, without necessarily adding to killing effectiveness. Useable? for sure. Deadly against unarmored opponents? for sure. But also highly exaggerated and not needed for cutting efficiency, while also making the blade handle poorly.

File: folk1.gif (73KB, 489x349px) Image search: [Google]

73KB, 489x349px

>>34961339
>Would it be accurate to say that as time went on swords and plate armor became more common but in the 14th century, the well armed mercenary would likely have a pole weapon and an axe/mace/knife/or short sword as a sidearm?

Swords and armour in general get cheaper (largely thanks to iron production ramping up, and with that the material cost dropping), and thus more common even with poorer fighters. For plate armour specifically though most parts of it don't turn up until, say, the early 14th century, with most of it being put into a single unit on top of a mail hauberk in the latter parts of the century (transitional plate) and then the mail hauberk is exchanged for a few small mail pieces (voiders) at the gaps in the plate ca 1400, giving us proper full plate.

Hall's "Weapons and Warfare in Renaissance Europe" is mostly about how guns took over, but to set the scene he does a good job at looking into how battles were fought before that happened, and he also shows how other weapons (pikes mostly) were used and remained relevant in the early gunpowder era.

The sidearms word doesn't need to be all that small either (though it can be). While the stereotypical knightly sword is a single handed affair of modest size, they did at times use quite large single handed swords (like http://albion-swords.com/swords/johnsson/sword-museum-tritonia.htm and http://albion-swords.com/swords/johnsson/sword-museum-soeborg.htm ) but as time go on we also start seeing the "great sword of war", which at the smaller end was one of the large single handers with a lengthened grip so both hands could be used, to even larger swords that would probably be of little use to anything but large arcing cuts during "ride-by swinging" attacks unless used with both hands. We also have the case of early 16th century Swedish peasant levies (pic, on the left, fighting a mercenary), that appears to have been fond of such swords (with very characteristic pretzel-like guards) as sidearms.

>>34960070
Hammerfell, they come from Hammerfell.

>>34962161
>CURVED. SWORDS.

File: 1488914069499.png (47KB, 420x420px) Image search: [Google]

47KB, 420x420px

>>34962161
>>34962331

Thank you for the replies, everyone. This thread was informative.

>>34960070
That's a highly stylized Italian falchion as made by someone who's never actually seen a highly stylized Italian falchion.

File: main-qimg-93a3af3c59508419794d2fa5ea224a60.png (138KB, 602x452px) Image search: [Google]

138KB, 602x452px

>>34962704
Pics related

File: 8f44438c4371fdd3b50b3de06be2df1a--medieval-swords-messer.jpg (44KB, 600x575px) Image search: [Google]

44KB, 600x575px

>>34962704

>>34960579

Eastern cavalry swords in Medieval times were almost always sabres and curved going back to Roman times.

With that said, armies fought with what they could get so the arms used would vary accordingly.

File: malchus.jpg (20KB, 1024x228px) Image search: [Google]

20KB, 1024x228px

>>34962704
Not a duplicate reply.

>>34960142
>you will never sword fight with a dadao in one hand and a broomhandle mauser .45 in the other
It hurts

>>34960118
Jerking it to jasmine was my past time. Plus the other harem girls they had.

File: falchion_127.jpg (28KB, 600x140px) Image search: [Google]

28KB, 600x140px

>>34962704
Here's a nice clipped point.

>>34961085
>when you spend all your diplomatic relations on PUs