Did Crusaders lose the Holy Land because of their bulky and useless

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>>34942025
Gee. 'win' and 'lose' are pretty harsh words to use in this situation.

>>34942025
They lost it because they are stupid cucks and Christianity is a weak religion.

>>34942025
They lost it because even with all the fortifications in the world, 50,000 Franks can't hold out for longer than 200 years against several million pissed off sand niggers.

>>34942041
>meanwhile paganism gets obliterated by christianity

No. Crusaders lost because you couldn't maintain a hostile state in a sea of enemies until the advent of guns

>>34942037
Crusade =/= every time Christians and Muslims fought. Educate yourself.

The muslim Ottomans became the undisputed super power because Europe was unable to unify against the threat of Islam

>>34942037
>map doesn't show range of christian conquest
ayyy

>>34942025
>takes a three headed flail to the back of the head
>stands right back up

i can't even

they lost cuz they messed with the wrong socio-religious political system also they won most of the good battles then just left

>>34942238
>>34942273
Please show me on the map where the christians conquered. I'll wait.

Most of the christian battles were retaking of lost land....

>>34942353
Conquered? Are you even aware of how 99% of wars were fought? Those muslim conquest battles in OP's pic can be considered as coastal raids, which the Christians also did in North Africa. This isn't some obscure historical fact, this is well documented history

>>34942393
and the Muslims only conquested those who attacked first

Islamic battle doctrine calls for the attacker to be wiped out or submit to Islamic rule

>>34942077
>implying paganism is the absence of religion

>>34942520

That isn't what he implied, anon.

>>34942501
Was the doctrine practiced. Islam also calls to its followers to blatantly lie to insert themselves into their enemies.

>we only fight if attacked
>but we also fight if you dont believe the same thing we do and submit
Gee...

>>34942469
>'raided' all of Mediterranean
>Christians reconquer
Tell me more about your 'facts' without actually posting anything..

>>34942541
>Islam also calls to its followers to blatantly lie to insert themselves into their enemies.
No it doesn't, don't lie faggot.

>>34942037
>I posted my fake map again mum

>>34942582
>thats fake
>doesnt post anything to prove it
Yup

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>>34942541
You must be talking of Taqiyya, which only Shias advocated, the majority of muslims could only lie about their faith if they were under immediate threat of bodily harm

>but we also fight if you dont believe the same thing we do and submit
I haven't heard of this, non-muslims were allowed to live under islamic rule

Abu Bakr also explicitly forbid the conversion of noncombatants under sword

>>34942564

Taqqiya, retard.

>>34942597
>Shia principle applying to all muslims
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH did you learn this from memes?

>>34942602

No, from what muslims actually do now

>>34942610
>he doesn't realize there are separate sects with different beliefs
Does it hurt your brain to be that stupid? Also let's see some sources backing your claim.
>Islam also calls to its followers to blatantly lie to insert themselves into their enemies.

>>34942597
>>34942610
taqiya is for shias only dumbass

>>34942563
I don't even know what point you're trying to make. My point is that there were far more Christian offensives against the Ottomans than your picture seems to suggest. I don't really know what you're tying to get at by saying that Christians were being reserved in their reactions...(which isn't true)

>>34942649
>implying anon doesnt think islam is one sect and everyone following it is hive mind

>>34942634

>he doesn't realize there are separate sects with different beliefs

And they all need to burn

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>>34942501
That may be true, but why did you have to kill my emissaries?

>>34942037
This image is fucking retarded my man, and I hate shitskin mudslimes

>>34942732
Come back when you're out of high school.

>>34942077
Not really, "converted" pagans recieved benefits from christian societies and "obliterated" other pagans.

Pagans wouldve done the same thing without converting; in fact, most of these societies just changed their respective diety to "god", not really altering their religion or culture in any meaningful way.

>>34942757

Nice try, Achmed.

>>34942772
dont hurt yourself on that edge kiddo

>>34942041
>largely Christian nations
>thriving and center of technology
>nations with other reliions as majority
>second world to third world failures dying or decaying, stagant hellholes

Gee Christianuty sure is weak.

>>34942025
They lost the Holy Land because the various Muslim factions in the Middle East finally decided to cooperate to remove them, rather than use them as leverage vs. other regional rivals, along with a slow weakening of support by the European heartland.

The reason the Crusader states held on as long as they did was because they represented a disruptive third party in Middle Eastern politics that different local rulers could leverage to gain advantage over their rivals, and political ambitions usually transcended religious differences (for example Raymond of Tripoli allied with Saladin to overthrow the regent of Jerusalem Guy of Lusignan).

>>34942818
>he thinks the world is advanced because of christians
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

>>34942827
It sure as hell didn't advance because some autist sat around laughing.

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>>34942843
it sure as hell didn't advance because christianity lmao

>>34942818
>nations with other reliions as majority
>second world to third world failures dying or decaying, stagant hellholes
Apparently this retard has never heard of Asian countries.

>>34942849
>weaponised_autism.jpg
have a (You)

>>34942818
So by your logic parts of Africa are literally the most advanced place in the world.

>>34942025
but muslim lammellar + chainmail + arab gambeson must be heavier than simple chainmail + gambeson

>>34942907
>gets shrekt
>yur an autist
I hereby officially accept your submission of defeat.

>>34942025
this thread is much like the crusades, christfags wallowing in their own misery and failure while niggers laugh at them

>>34942025
they lost because their supply lines of troops supplies and equipment stretched from the middle east to western europe

>>34942025

Please stop getting all your information from videogames and movies.

Mamlukes and various Turkic warriors wore armor that was just as heavy and heavier. Heavy cavalry was fucking invented in the middle east, learn your history.

Western armor was also very effective against the horse archers employed by muslim armies, they'd get hit repeatedly and not be harmed. Without the armor they'd be absolutely fucked, especially with no effective countermeasure to horse cavalry except hiring mercenary horse archers of their own. (which they did).

>>34942745
But they didn't?

Also
>mongolboos will defend the sacking of Baghdad even though so much knowledge was lost

>>34942936

Are people in this thread seriously implying that the West doesn't lead the world in every positive way, while the Islamic world isn't a total shithole?

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>>34942025
SCA crusader here.

In short, no. The first and third crusades disprove this since their armor was massively useful against the turk and saracen skirmishing tactics of the day. The battle of Arsuf is a prime example; Richard's heavy cavalry was so effective that it worked in spite of disobedience to orders and that it was effectively an uncontrolled charge. A bigger concern was your horse getting shot out from under you, which could easily kill you by sheer force of impact. This is apparent especially in the first crusade, wherein several of the more boisterous figures chose to ride out in front and became the first casualties.

The Crusader Kingdoms have one major feature that stands out throughout every military campaign, and that is their consistently under-defended castles. Not being able to maintain their castles was an extremely persistent problem for a number of reasons.

Another factor that hamstrung every single crusade was hunger. There are multiple accounts of cannibalism occurring when the crusaders overtook a stronghold and, besieged, turned to digging up bodies for food. The heat also played a role in this, and in this respect OP could be seen as right, since maille will overheat you REALLY easily if you're not careful.

Additionally you have to consider that the Byzantines made for pretty horrendous allies and could almost be said to have deserved crusade #4 for the sheer ineptitude with which they dealt with these campaigns over the course of a century. There were quite a lot of fights and killing on behalf of the byzantines, which were so easy to drum up that even an excommunicated crusader force could co-opt them.

Sources:

John Keegan, A History of Warfare
Harold Lamb, The Crusades
The Great Courses, Era of the Crusades (Amazing video lectures)
Ewart Oakeshott, A Knight In Battle
My own fighting experience.

TV in general is a BAD source of history.

>>34942849
>it's christians fault we're not more advanced

what were the rest of the world doing ffs

>>34942914

>>34942914
Generally speaking that's rare for muslim soldiers before the mainstream development of the Mamluk states. And also you're forgetting that coat-of-plates over maille became fairly mainstay for crusader forces.

>>34942985
Gets it. Early turkic forces seem to have not used it very much though.

>>34943007
Its not leading because they are christians.

>>34942849

>that graph

Oh I see "scientific advancement" is a hard, easily quantifiable and graphable substance.

Inb4 christian, I'm not. That graph is stupid as fuck though and Europe did make strides in the """dark ages"""

>>34943027

They're heavily non religious, but they were leading even more when they were. The Enlightenment sprang from very European Christian ideas. I'm not Christian, before anyone starts whining

>>34943048
One of the biggest things to come from that time was separation of church and state because people realized how retarded christianity was. Thanks for furthering my argument.

>>34942888
Currently stagnant hellholes, with the only ones not being so were because of assistance from western nations.

>>34942908
>largely muslim or tribal areas
>fuckin failures

South Africa and Rwanda are hellholes, but they stands better than the rest.

>>34943091
You telling me the Founding Fathers thought Christianity was retarded? It had more to do how people can corrupt the church and state together.

>>34943147
>largely muslim or tribal
Nope, Christianity is the biggest abrahamic religion in Africa.

>>34943169
Did you actually look at the demographics and not the average? Africa is a big place, very unlike your mind.

>>34942091
Repeatedly destroying Muslim armies and creating several principalities and counties that lasted 200 years before the great grandchildren of those crusaders were defeated by a numerically superior enemy is a hell of a way to define "losing."

>>34943191
Did you actually look at it? Well when you do Mr. Retard, you'll see that Africa is 40%+ Christian with Islam being the 2nd biggest religion.

>>34943203
>we was here for 200 yrs guise
>muslims held it for almost 1000 years
AHAHHAHAH what a fucking cuck

>>34943204
45-40% muslim, almost even. Also you have to account for various regions. If it wasn't obvious North Africa being Muslim majority and South being Christian.

So no, YOU didn't look at it, because YOU are too busy getting high off your own bullshit.

>>34943214
>then died and lost it to Jews
>devolved into desert loos

Sure, whatever you say.

>>34943214
>Unironically uses the word cuck, is ignorant of history and warfare in general
>thinks he's not a total retard

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They lost because their genes weren't white enough to withstand the deluge of shitskin genes that slammed into their aryan bastions of proper volk traditions.

>>34943219
So that explains why countries in Northern Africa have better HDI, meanwhile Souther Africa is literally Indiatier. Wew lad.

>>34942025
>Lose
I would argue that there was no clear winner, as both sides survived. Only one thrived until recently, however.

Also, plate mail isn't terribly heavy my dude. You can check out modern day brohiems rolling around and jogging in it routinely.

>>34943036
>this

I agree with the sentiment that christianity stifled scientific advancement in the dark ages to a degree but this graph is shit

>>34943242
>making excuses because christfags were barely able to hold territory before they got shrekt
stay mad cuck

>>34943258
Chain mail is terribly heavy however. The whole dopey bit about knights not being able to get up after falling comes from the period when they wore both. Chainmail is fucking exhausting to use and the crusade era predates full plate armor.

>>34942025
ITT angry christcucks

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>>34943012
How DARE you come to this board and provide sources?!

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>>34943246
Only far North by the Mediterranean, the bordering areas around them become India tier, if not worse. You aren't about to tell me Sierra Leone is a well developed area, are you?

South Africa and Rwanda aren't too far behind compared to the northern relatives.

Anyhow several other factors apply, including tropical disease and lack of ability to treat such, corruption, tribalism, I.Q. points in the mid 60-80s, literal nogs, etc.

>>34943294
>hurrrr this country is no better than one that is in a massive desert
HAHAHAHHAHAHAH, confirmed cuck

>>34943294
Not that anon, but Central/South America is Christian majority and they don't look exactly... bright.

>>34943292
Sorry, I just think they're really good reads. Keegan's critique of war-as-politics really captivated me when I started trying to earn all of this stuff.

>>34943314
That one in a massive desert happens to be near an ocean that frequently trades goods with Europeans, as well as propped them up in terms of technology and organization. Also they aren't nog majority.

>>34943294
>Europe better than usa
Americucks on suicide watch

>>34942041
Still mad we cut down your trees and forced your ancestors to convert paganfag?

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>>34943337
>Italy has equal IQ to Germany
>surpasses France and Russia

>>34943337
>Xenophobic Japan better than multiculturalist Europe
But it wasn't the Europoors who kicked the shit out of them

>>34943335
>hurrr muh europeans
>as the south is filled with thousands of them but still shit
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA

>>34942025
No.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d_uRh5yLKk&t=1m35s

>>34943337
>americucks face when NK has higher HDI
LOOOOOOOOOOL

>>34943387
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>34943328
i was just kidding, it was nice to see your post and to check your sources

>>34943012
>posts something related to the thread
God bless

>>34943386
i dont get it

>>34943272
Yeah man, absolutely. I thought chain being heavy as fuck was a meme till I got a chance to wear some, that shit is heavier and more constricting then plate. Fuck me if it isn't protective shit, though.

>>34942041
Don't cut yourself on that edge son.

>>34942596
>I haven't heard of this, non-muslims were allowed to live under islamic rule
As long as they submitted to islamic rule laws and doctrine...

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>>34942818
Tell me more about these thriving technological centers in Latin America and Sub-Saharan Africa.

>>34943272
>The whole dopey bit about knights not being able to get up after falling comes from the period when they wore both.
No it comes from the Victorian period with its ignorant and supercilious bongs who understood wrong pretty much everything.

>>34943760
>As long as they submitted to islamic rule laws and doctrine
Generally you have to follow the laws in any country you're in you nigger.

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>>34942353

>>34943901
Wait are you being serious?.... People are talking about things that happened from 200AD-1700AD and you're talking about the entire current world? ....
If you're serious no one can even begin to explain to you.

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>>34942025
http://bobrowen.com/nymas/podcasts/John%20France%20-%20Crusades%20128.mp3

>>34942025
Muslims and Europeans wore pretty much the same kinds of armor. Muslims just tended to wear robes over their kit to make themselves look unarmed, which makes them look "lighter" in period depictions.

>>34942849
Christian monks were the only people in Europe making books for centuries, to say nothing of education and research

>>34942077

Paganism was never a singular religion. It was a fractured religion that differed from village to village. The only guys who were actively 'paganist' were the druids who manipulated the rest like the Catholic church did once they realised it's easier to just have 1 guy claim he's the authority because he speaks latin but noone else does.

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>>34944241

>>34942520
>muh English plumber sex cult
>religion

I sure do shiggity diggity

>>34942025
>Did Crusaders lose the Holy Land because of their bulky and useless armor? Muslims wore lighter armor that gave them better agility to move around and attack.
Protip, both used mail at that time.

>>34943901
This map is inaccurate. Bangkok is definitely a European colony

>>34942541
>>34942564
>>34942596
>Taqiyya
Complete horseshit. MEME

t. muslim

>>34944265
I don't know why you're laughing, this is actually true. The first universities in Europe were all founded by the church as well.

>>34946252
Why do you choose to praise a child molesting warlord as your prophet?

>>34943294
>middle east is literally africa tier
Pfft

>>34943264
>I agree with the sentiment that christianity stifled scientific advancement in the dark ages

It really didn't though. The church was basically the internet back then. It allowed for transfers of information with relative ease between nations. What killed scientific discovery was people sperging out about Roman philosophers who were wrong, but held as right. However, if you mean the usury laws stifling funding of research and how many political and bad popes then I can see where you come from.

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>>34943820
tell me about all the great works of pagans outside the greeks and romans

>>34942091
This. You dont sustain supply lines in 1100. Empires where already nearly impossible by the 500s.

>>34946806

>tell me about the great works of pagans
>except those pagans
Why don't they count? Give one reason.

Also, literally everything about Babylon, Carthage, Persia, Egypt, China, India. All of them were more advanced than Europe at various points. Willing to barter with you on Persia since they were monotheists who canonically saw Christ as a messiah figure, according to Christianity anyway (the three wise men were literally Zoroastrian scholars).

What a shitty fucking thread
>ctrl-f "armor"
>5 responses on topic out of 118

Grow up.

>>34942025
No. Christians found early advantage over the Muslims because they were organized and united. Islamic forces got their shit together and united while Christian forces continued to fracture under political issues between the respective Crusader armies led to a weakening of their cohesion and subsequent losses. The Kingdom of Jerusalem was eventually left without much support from mainland European powers so Muslims were able to pick it apart and extinguish it.

With the Fourth Crusade hastening the demise of the ERE, it can be viewed that the crusades were detrimental for a long period of time until the 17th century, since it temporarily quelled the divisions in Islam and allowed the Ottomans to secure an Anatolian empire which would continue with a more or less unified conquests until the weakening of the Turks.

However, Reconquista can be considered the Spanish Crusade, since various Popes offered the same incentive crusaders received for embarking on the Crusades to the Spaniards fighting for Iberia. Pretty much did what was intended.

>>34942501
Yes because Islam spreading throughout Arabia was done so peacefully with each tribe coming under the banner willingly before Muhammad set out into Syria and his successors into Palestine and Egypt. All Abrahamic religions have committed an aggressive war at some point and time, there is no clear aggressor or defender when the conflict spans over 14 centuries, with religious themed threats and hostile intentions coming from all sides today.

>>34946970
>Why don't they count? Give one reason.
because if you are a european and not one of those two ethnically then your pagan anscestors are not much to write home about

>>34947061
That is not a reason though.

>>34947061
Hindu math literally gave us the concept of 0 because Greeks were concerned about the idea of nothing having some value. Islamic scholars worked on innovations in windmills, etc. during their golden era. Chinese had a large reaching exploration and tribute fleets under Zhang He until the eunuchs shut it down. Some sources even suggest it went as far as Arabia which is fairly extensive for that era.

>>34942596
>non-muslims were allowed to live under islamic rule
So long as they submit to Moslems and pay the Jizya.

If they stand up to believers, for instance, because a dhimmi woman was raped, their testimony must only count for 1/4th as much as a believer (ie, they must provide 4 male eyewitnesses to a crime for each of the accused and his male witnesses providing his alibi, dhimmi women being ineligible to testify against believer men at all) and "false testimony" (e.g., not outnumbering the accused and his supporters more than 4 to one) is punished by being made into a slave.
As is falling behind on the jizya tax.

Under a kind tyrant, an Islamic country may treat it's religious minorities well, but there is all the justification required for the tyranny of the majority, an uncaring tyrant, or a cruel tyrant to justify whatever abuse they choose.

>>34942649
That's what Sunnis say, convenient, isn't it?

>>34943012
>a well educated and high quality post free of memes
This place doesn't deserve your kind

>>34942025
They lost because their supply lines were in the hands of other nations, and those other nations weren't monolithic in their support for the crusader states. They also had a much smaller local recruitment base.

So logistics and manpower, not armor and speed

>>34946806
What they don't tell you about that story is that the skies thundered and rages for days afterwords and a large amount were struck or near struck by lighting.

Thor was maaaaaad

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>>34946806
You don't have an answer, do you?

>>34948597
>>34947061
Your ass was so enflamed you couldnt even scroll further, dumbass tree worshipper

>>34948649
You never showed us those thriving technology centers in Africa. All you did was try to deflect.

>>34942025
Great movie. Really showed how much Christians were real cunts and deserved to lose.

but in answer to your question, OP: Yes! And that is how Muslims are still winning. With all of American/Western military might, all the snazzy aircraft, bulky war machines, high tech camo fatigues and armor, they are still losing against Muslims in sandals. And Muslims have even invaded Europe and America and they did it under your noses.

>>34942273
Or all the noncatholic church sanctioned religious conquests

>>34942037
Wow, Muslims must be way better at fighting than Christian whites.

>>34949074
Yes, stop oppressing us.

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>>34942077
>>34942818
>>34943358
>>34943741

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>>34946806

>>34942849
>pic related

It's like I stepped back in to time to 2006

>>34942025
The armour was useful and allowed them to take on forces many times their own in size, muslim arrows could not penetrate their armour and their light curved swords fared similarly poorly, this is why you would have figures like 1,400 beating 10,000

The reason they lost comes in two parts

1) The unification of muslims under Saladin

2) Marching into the desert to try and find saladin instead of sticking to the area around jerusalem where they have water

>>34949074
Thats because the muslim world is usually united against a small isolated christian state. Whenever anything close to equal numbers are involved the muslims lose 9 times out of 10

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>>34951659
>their light curved swords

>>34951920
Most of them carried shamshirs

>>34952293
[citation needed]

>>34947924
Nothing to see here. Move along

>>34952293
Oh my god, you fucking retard. The east generally used straight blades until the crusades introduced them to falchions and the like. The saber style blade came to the middle east (and the west) from eastern European tribal nomads, for whom the relative lightness of the weapon was a non issue.

>>34952643
>eastern European

I'd like to amend my post to say "central Asian". Also, a very quick glance at the wikipedia page informs me that the shamshir didn't appear in Persia until the 12th century.

>>34952643
>>34952689

And the Turkish people come from where originally, perhaps further east towards what may be termed as central asia?

And the 12th.c gives you nearly 100 years for it to be popularised before what happened, a crusade perhaps ?

>>34949763
the irony of your post is the end picture of peter steele. the late heavy metal rocker who had considered himself an atheist until a few years before his death when "he began identifying himself as Roman Catholic".
fuck off back to /pol/.

>>34942585
>>34942037
I love how these are both from the same video.

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>>34954665
>peter steele

congrats on being fucking retarded.

>"lost" the crusades
>we have bases and absolute control in every mudslime country...
>we didnt

>>34942025
>Weapons
it was a matter of internal politics and logistics

>>34954665
>Pete steele
Type O Negative is a shitty enough band to make people this fucking stupid, Steele included.

Carnivore was ALWAYS better.

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>>34943294
>Norks
>IQ 100+
>mfw

>>34942025
I don't know shit about the Crusades. Is there a boo/k/ you dinks can recommend?

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>>34943012
Shouldn't you be publishing peer-reviewed journals rather than spending your time in the worst place on the internet(tm)

>>34942025
>bulky and useless armor
Stopped reading there

>>34958181
found the southie.