Explain to me, like the retarded 4 year old i am, why steel case

>>34884642
Steel is hard metal.

Cheaper and bullet hose philosophy of combat.

>>34884660
>the case is steel
>only fucking up your extractor

Surely if this was the only problem nobody would give a fuck since an extra is cheap as fuck to replace.

>>34884642
I have heard a bunch of different things over the years. Steel is harder than brass so it can cause more wear. Steel ammo is coated in lacquer to prevent rust, which can build up and cause malfunctions. Steel cases to expand as well as brass so they don't seal in the chamber as well. I am sure I have heard other things, I don't know if any of it is true. I just tend not to shoot too much steel cased ammo through my non commie guns just because it is so much dirtier.

>>34884642
Some firearms are a bit more precisely designed and do not function as well as, nor stand up to the use of steel case ammo as well... the rest are SLAVSHIT

Slavshit lover reporting in

>>34884642
Steel having a much higher melting point than brass means that gun and ammo designers don't like it as it doesn't seal the chamber as well as brass does, but steel is cheaper to manufacture than brass so cash strapped countries will use steel for ammo manufacture instead.

Combloc guns are cheap. Steel case is cheap. All together it's cheaper. As far as I know, that's the whole thing.

>>34884674
The jacket is also a mild steel. That's what the "bi-metal" label on the box means.

>>34884693
>so cash strapped countries
There's a pretty good argument for steel regardless of liquidity. Copper is a strategic metal.

>>34884699
>combloc guns are cheap

Maybe for militaries buying them, but in the US not many weapon platforms are cheaper than the AR15.

>>34884717
Though not because of the actual cost of manufacturing the weapons but because of the ridiculous import laws and regulations of the trade

>>34884642
during wartime, steel is more plentiful than brass or copper.

>>34884738
Doesnt explain why shitty as fuck C39's and other domestic AKs cost so much.

>>34884642
NATO cases are much straighter than most steel cased ammo. Makes it harder for steel NATO cases to be extracted.

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I mean, from what I've heard the less-consistent expansion of steel means that steel has a tendency to stick in chambers, especially with straight-walled cartridges like 5.56x45. Its the reason that 7.62x39, 7.62x54, and 5.45x39 have such a noticeable taper.

Another reason that some people rag on steel cased stuff is that a lot of it has a harder primer. For instance, people usually say that Golden Tiger 5.45 is shit for a 5.45 AR because the primers are all pretty damn hard.

>tfw buy almost exclusively wolf ammo

>>34884764
what about all the shit you hear about throat erosion on steel 556 but you dont hear about on 545.

>>34884642
Steel isn't as malleable as brass, so when you fire it it doesn't expand to seal off the chamber leading to more gunk buildup. This isn't really a problem as long as you clean your gun but if you shoot brass after shooting a lot of steel you're gonna have FTEs out the asshole

Also because it isn't as malleable it can be dangerous to reload because not malleable=more brittle and the cartridge might shatter. Some fudd told me this and I don't reload so it might be bullshit but I guess it kinda makes sense

>>34884761
Because they're made with "American" labor which jacks up the price. It's basic Jewry.

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>>34884642
>>34884642
At the end of the test, the chrome lining of the Wolf and Brown Bear barrels was almost gone from the throat forward, and the barrels had effectively become smoothbores, with the rifling near the muzzles acting only as a mild suggestion on the projectiles. A throat erosion gauge could be dropped into the bore from the muzzle end with absolutely no resistance.

The bottom line is that for both Brown Bear and Wolf, the lands had been completely ground down to the diameter of the grooves. What’s still visible is the differences in material, for the grooves have some chrome lining left. Longitudinal scratches are visible inside the bore, and it is believed that they were caused by the projectiles meandering their way down the bore in a casual manner before exiting and tumbling in a fairly random direction.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/#erosion

>>34884915

>ammo provided by federal

>>34884946
Russian bi-metal bullets kill barrels. It's well known. I have an AR barrel that did 3k rounds of steel before it started key holing.

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>>34884817
5.45 is normally steel cased and 5.56 is normally brass. All other things being equal, steel cased does wear the throat faster. So if you use steel cased 5.56, the barrel life will be noticeably shorter relative to using brass. Since 5.45 is almost always steel, expected barrel life is unaffected. That's why people make a big deal about steel 5.56 and not 5.45.

>>34884660
But the steel is actually softer than brass

>>34884915
Has nothing to do with the case material. You should have read down a couple more paragraphs.

"The steel cases themselves don’t have any effect on the condition of the bore. The difference lies with the projectile – the soft copper jacket of the Federal ammunition simply doesn’t cause the same amount of wear as the bimetal (copper and steel) jacket of the Russian ammunition."

>>34884642

The u.s military used to issue steel cased munitions for small arms, in .30, .30 Carbine and .45 ACP.


The German military issued large volumes of steel cased ammo in 7,92 and 9X19 in WW2.

It's nothing new.

>>34885035
We don't read we just parrot shit we pick up from r/guns

>>34884660
Not as hard as diamonds

>>34884915
This test is why I shoot exclusively Federal XM193 in my AR. 10K rounds and zero malfunctions is pretty amazing given the test conditions.

I was curious enough to put a box of steel case (PPU I think, not lacquered or anything) which shot perfectly, but haven't touched any since.

>>34885085
Not as hard as Dragonforce

>>34885009
Barrel life on the average CHF AK74 barrel is longer than a m4 barrel though.

>>34885166
Hence why I said everything else being equal, as in everything is the same, including gun and caliber, except the ammo. There's a whole host of different factors between the m4 and ak74, including standards that determine if a barrel is acceptable, that would determine the difference barrel life, not just the bullet construction.

>>34884761
Labor and production costs. The AR market benefits from economies of scale.

>Extraction Issues: In some firearms, steel case can extract harder or sometimes not at all. This is caused by a combination of factors. Steel is harder than brass so it doesn’t have the elasticity that brass does. When a cartridge is fired, the resulting pressure makes the case expand to the internal dimension of the chamber. The case must contract slightly to allow for easy extraction. Steel does not contract as easily as brass, so if a chamber has any roughness or tool marks in it from the manufacturing process, the friction caused by the case not contracting enough, and the rough chamber can cause poor extraction.

I also looked it up and general steel has a higher coefficient of friction than brass. 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 have more tapered cases which are less affected by the friction

>>34885024
By what measure?

>>34885085
never 4 get

>>34884693
>Steel having a much higher melting point than brass means that gun and ammo designers don't like it as it doesn't seal the chamber as well as brass does
It is not the melting point that control the effectiveness of obturation, but rather its ductility and elasticity. Brass is still superior in these regards though.

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Can someone explain why Russian steel case ammo is often copper colored?

>>34887590
Most likely a copper plating to reduce friction. It can also come from a laquer applied to make it more weatherproof.

>>34884642
Steel is a hell of a lot cheaper than copper (for brass).

>>34884642
slavs are poor, they manufacture shit in the cheapest way possible. mild steel is much much cheaper

slavs would make ammo out of brass if they could afford it. brass is superior in every way but cost

when you have millions of soldiers to load for, the cheapest option that works good enough is best

>>34887590
prevents corrosion

>>34884642
because steel is cheaper
use your head OP

>>34884642
Why not use iron instead of steel?

>>34888501
Because iron is a lot harder that steel and far less malleable

>>34884642
It's purely cost. Russia has a ton of resources to make cheap grades of soft steel for steel case ammo.

The U.S. has far more resources than most other countries for brass ammo. Even countries in NATO that don't have the resources for brass like us just follow our lead.

If we were like utterly deprived of copper, I doubt we'd use it still (for everything) but who knows.

>>34884862
Actually steel case lasts longer in reloading because it's more durable.
T. Guy who reloaded a 357 case 25 times to see how long it'd last

>>34888501
Working iron is a completely different animal than working steel, to the point that it's kind of a dying art. You'd be better served trying to develop a workable polymer or cellulose cartridge.

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Steel doesn't remove heat (absorb heat) from the chamber as well as brass. That means barrels run hotter, retain heat longer, and wear faster.

>>34885085
Yeah, but 1kg of diamonds weighs like 10kg

>>34885024
No.

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>>34888539
That's part of the story. The main reason US/NATO doesn't use steel is that their weapon systems are completely calibrated to brass, can't switch to steel without creating more problems than cost issue solves. Otherwise US would have transitioned long time ago.

>>34884814
>Tfw smells like burning batteries and hands are covered in power fouling


Feels good m8

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>>34884642
>yfw hardness tests actually places brass cases as the harder material

>>34889975
No

>>34884642
I've talked to a number of guys who are slavshit lovers, and something that many of them have said is that the am pattern rifles were designed with steel cased ammo in mind, since that was what they were going to use as steel is cheaper, and because they were designed around steel case, steel case performs adequately/better than brass.

NATO guns were designed with brass cases in mind, so they tend to function better with brass as opposed to steel.

It could be horse shit, as i can't really get into the specific differences or whatever, but it sounds plausible.

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>>34884660

>Implying steel case is hard

steel cases are softer then brass,look it up.


>using brass ammo that damages your gun

>ever.

>>34885024
There is not a single grade of steel that is softer than brass
Not
One

Cheap
Commie weapons cycle steel because they have steep case tapers unlike most other calibers
Case taper makes extraction easier

>>34890345

wrong

>>34884717
Because CNCs are cheap now whereas machines and machinists were not in 1947

>>34884707
Bimetal is because the inside is steel and it has a copper plating

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>>34884642
>Explain to me, like the retarded 4 year old i am, why steel case ammo is pretty much the gold standard for com-bloc weapons but highly discouraged for any other weapons?

Gold standard? No, it's just cheap & good enough.
The gold standard is brass cased Lapua for 7.62x39.

Steel is fine for where you don't mind having to replace the barrel, because the price difference in ammo makes up for the faster wearing barrel. You'll be able to buy a new barrel for the money you saved by skimping on ammo.

However, it's greatly discouraged if you have a gun of which the barrel cannot be replaced easily or if the gun has parts which are hard to source (like extractors).

It's also not as good for precision shooting, because a copper/brass case expands uniformly in the chamber and bounces back after firing. A steel case does not do that to the same degree, causing a suboptimal seal. This means less uniformity and more dirt in the chamber.

>>34887590
>Can someone explain why Russian steel case ammo is often copper colored?

It's often called "copper washed". It prevents corrosion making it more durable and slightly increases lubricity making it easier to extract.
Before copper washed cases, you saw a lot of "laquered" cases, but those tend to leave more residue.

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>>34884915

Then why do commie chrome-lined barrels seem to stand up better to steel cased, bimetal ammo than the corresponding American barrels?

Are Americans just stingy with the chrome?

>>34890427
forging methods usually

>>34890427
>Are Americans just stingy with the chrome?

Americans tend to have higher expectations of accuracy. Chrome lining effectively means you add a layer of chrome on the existing barrel. To do this within tolerances and with the expectation of accuracy, you try to minimize the differences in thickness of material added. This is most easily achieved by minimizing the material added.

The Russians don't really seem to care about accuracy that much. They have another concept of practical accuracy. As a result, they are willing to live with imperfections in the barrel as long as it means the rifle will have a longer service life.

Chrome lining is quite easy as a general concept, but to do it in such a way that you have a truly uniform barrel is really complicated.

>>34884915
Steel case Golden Tiger is going for $189.5 per 1000 right now. Wolf brass case is going for $264 per 1000 right now. Over 10000 rounds steel case saves you over $700. You can buy 2 new barrels with the savings.

>>34889510
>cellulose cartridge
We caseless now!

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>>34889921

>>34890308
Well CZ specifically recommends using steel case ammo in their 7.62x39 CZ 527 rifle, so you may be right

>>34889921
No, 1kg of diamonds is actually a dozen.

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>>34890372

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I've always just shot wolf, or old chinese surplus, but assuming I want to get away from bi-metal jackets for barrel wear reasons, what's my best (see cheapest) option?

Annealed steel is just as soft if not softer than brass.

It just doesn't fireform as nicely.