F-35: Pierre Sprey vs Lt Col David 'Chip' Berke de

>>34787413
>flat earthers vs round earthers

I haven't listened to the full debate either, but I too lean towards the round earth side.

>>34787413
The thing is: The next plane must be more expensive that the F-35 program, or the airforce will lose the budget war.

>>34787785
>Hurr munee iz onlee fectuhr

>>34787413
>Sprey
>right
>on anything other than water sanitation and jazz records
>ever

>>34788318
>He now records music on his own label "Mapleshade" and sells high-end stereo equipment. His recording with the ARC Choir singing "Walk With Me" appears in Kanye West's hit "Jesus Walks." Sprey said he earned enough royalties from the West song "to support 30 of my money-losing jazz albums."
Kek

>>34787413
Sprey hasn't been right about anything since 1980. He should focus on making jazz.

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>>34787413
Only valid points Sprey made were
1. F35s haven't done much real world testing
2. Cost to maintain is higher than 4th gens

He got blow the fuck out in every other argument.
IDK how that air Force bro kept his cool.
That old cool was trying to tell him what his own jet feels like.

>>34791772
>1. F35s haven't done much real world testing
Except Mountain Home June 16, Green Flag that year, the last few Red Flags...

Unless live combat is what he thinks is truly testing it.

>2. Cost to maintain is higher than 4th gens
Not by much, it's only 28% more than the F-16 while in IOC for 2/3 services.

>>34791867
He was mainly talking about real world testing; Like a real mission.
It's a valid point, we don't know if it really works as advertised.

>>34791867
>Not by much, it's only 28%
It's a whole lot more than that.
I assemble and weld all the exhaust components for the f135 engine.
Parts are dropping in price, but it's not cheap or easy 2 maintain.

Example:
Supervisor was a f15 and f16 mechanic
They had a lot of ways to patch up engines to keep em running to their overhaul dates.
Those same patches DO NOT WORK on stealth hardware.

In the log run, 25+ years the f35 will be far cheaper then 4th gens.
But not right now.

>>34787785
It's fucking ridiculous how the game is rigged.

>>34788291
Not him, but you actually too far retard for me to even understand you. What are you trying to say?

I'm sure it's going to be stupid because "the budget war" is definitely not what you think it means and I'm pretty sure you eat paint.

>>34791928
Red Flag is about as live as you can get without killing anyone.

$32K vs $25k.

I'd rather have the F-22.

It has real world testing by bombing runs in Iraq.

>>34791991
Redflag is still controlled.
In the end, it's still a simulation.
I'd like to see real world tests.

>>34792012
>It has real world testing by bombing runs in Iraq.
>Spend billions on an air superiority jet
>Sits in an AC controlled hanger for years
>use it to bomb 3rd world sand people
Pretty fucking stupid
(I also make f22 parts)

>>34792012
>Maxes at 1000lbs bombs
>Can only target on own with Synthetic Aperture Radar
>No LGB capability

It sucks at ground attack. Though I could see a bit of parody of that "real world testing" nonsense.

>>34792114
>Redflag is still controlled.
>In the end, it's still a simulation.
>I'd like to see real world tests.
Show me a real-world scenario that's actually as difficult as Red Flag 17-1.

>>34787413

im not knowledgeable with aviation combat

but when david mentions trying to avoiding a dogfight in any plane the US has,does he mean they have no capable planes for dogfighting or that its just tactically nonviable in todays theaters

>>34792364

*tactically nonviable to dogfight in todays theaters

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>>34792161
>Show me a real-world scenario that's actually as difficult as Red Flag 17-1.

Flipping off a Russian MIG when inverted.

>>34792364
When it's between killing them before they know you're there and making 600 really bad decisions that put you into a knife fight, guess.

>>34792448

fair enough,i posted a bit early into the clip before he explained that part

>>34792364
Look up the ACEVAL exercises in the 1970s. The US concluded that if you're get into visual combat, and both sides have all aspect IR missiles, the result is mutual annihilation. The side with the better fighters and pilots will get a somewhat better exchange rate, but will still suffer extreme attrition anytime they mix it up. That's why he's saying they want to avoid dogfights,

>>34792579

thanks for the detailed explanation

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>>34787413
summary:
1:04 hour of MAXIMUM DAMAGE CONTROL

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>>34787413
>quality of pilot won't matter BECAUSE STEALTH AND TECH

>>34787413
Such as it is, I do believe the demo was overblown and not that impressive. That's not the point though, as it doesn't matter in the context of modern aerial combat.

>>34792649
By Sprey? Yes, it was.

>>34792698
>Implying the US hasn't focused on having both, and had dominance because of it

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>>34792819
>f35 fanboys going into OMEGA DAMAGE CONTROL MODE

>>34792842
>Sprey can't argue for shit
>Has nothing to back his claims

>Berke is solid the entire way through

>Hurr Sprey won durr!

>>34787413
Hey thats David Berke! His interview on jocko podcast is the shit.

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>>34792863
here is 1 simple arguement to break all your fanboy logics:
if F35 is so great, why haven't MURRICA air force actually went and buy all 4000 of them that your army said they would.
Is it because of the same reason why they didn't do the 1000 jet fighter replacement with the F22; because it's just a joke that they are not suppose to cash in on.

>>34793427
>if F35 is so great, why haven't MURRICA air force actually went and buy all 4000 of them that your army said they would.
because it takes time to manufacture 4,000 planes

>>34793427
But they are buying them. Over 1000 for the US military alone, and that's just initial orders.
>Is it because of the same reason why they didn't do the 1000 jet fighter replacement with the F22; because it's just a joke that they are not suppose to cash in on.
No, the funding for the f-22 went to MRAPS before the money was actually included in the budgets proposals for that year, meaning it could be used for other stuff.

Pierre Sprey
>Outdated fudd who worked on planes 30 years ago, believes a 40 year old aircraft is #1

vs

Berke

>Modern pilot with valid experience who has flown the aircraft and other 'contempories'

>>34794878
>Outdated fudd who never worked on a single plane, believes a 40 year old aircraft is #1
FTFY

>>34795241
He's even worse than I thought, does he actually have any experience with the F35 or is he just an upset old man?

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>Pierre using F-35 bingo unironically

>>34795255
None. And he was only in the Pentagon for a few years in the reviled Systems Analysis Office under Secretary McNamara. He was in on the Red Bird proposal that eventually became the Lightweight fighter program, and the A-X proposal, but it was limited at best. He never actually designed anything like he claims.

>>34794878
>Topgun instructor
>FAC in Iraq
>F-22 test pilot
>Commander of the first operational F-35 squadron
vs
>aspiring jazz musician

>>34795299
How the hell did he become such a leading critic of the F35 then if he has no idea what's going on? Who gave him the platform to open his saggy jowls

>>34795320
Russia Today

>>34795320
https://etd.auburn.edu/bitstream/handle/10415/595/MICHEL_III_55.pdf

td;dr: He was used by a journalist along with some like-minded jackasses to undermine public opinion of military acquisitions.

>>34795320
>How the hell did he become such a leading critic of the F35 then if he has no idea what's going on?
Have you been on /k/? Opponents of the F35 project are DESPERATE for anyone to validate their beliefs, the more shrill and extreme the better. Lack of relevant experience means nothing.

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>>34787413

Sprey got eternally BTFO and really asshurt about it all. You could tell he was frustrated as hell on being called out for being a retard. He should just stick to jazz.

>>34795373
I normally try and avoid the bait threads, it's like arguing with a brick wall

>>34793427
Jesus christ, the autism

>>34787413
>an old faggot vs a guy who actually flies for the military
HMM REALLY MAKE THE OL' NEURONS FUNCTION

>>34795750
If you listen carefully, he also qualifies that five to one as original model F-16As, and thinks all the upgrades are bullshit.

>>34795908
This is, in fact, the same guy that thinks we should be mass producing m60s instead of Abrams, and that the defining feature of a tank should be the number of machine guns it can bring to bear. In his worldview, tanks are for killing logistics packages, not for killing other tanks.

>>34795985
Nope, M48A5s, not even M60s.

>>34795908
>If you listen carefully, he also qualifies that five to one as original model F-16As
Was this meant to be in English
Also Sprey what opposes is everything that ever made the F16 a viable platform.

>>34796012
He claims you could get five F-16As for every F-35.

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>>34795985
>and that the defining feature of a tank should be the number of machine guns it can bring to bear

On the plus side, we should be able to make M2 mediums much, much cheaper than the M1.

>>34796038
Ah, gotcha.
Kinda funny to complain about flight costs and turn around and suggest fielding and maintaining five times as many aircraft based on an obsolete platform.

>>34796079
He's always had this insane idea that "maneuver warfare" means having a shit-ton of low-tech weapons systems, even though that's the textbook definition of attrition warfare.

>>34795311
kek

>>34795985
>inb4 aps worthless, buy more pattons