Why did the Vietnam war fuck up the soldiers more than WW2 and

>>34741816
Because it wasn't the war that fucked them up. It was years of drug abuse.

>>34741816
IT AINT ME

>>34741816
people got more pussier

>>34741816
Drugs
Free gook pus

>>34741816
The koreans didn't exploit every single way to terrorize the americans that was possible. I'd like to see you fall into a punji trap filled with gook shit and remain calm after being sent home. That or walking outside to take a piss and having your leg blown off by a device that was designed to maim as opposed to kill since the viet cong knew that it cost more resources to care for an injured soldier than to ship back a dead one.

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>>34741816
The bigger question is why is OIF and OEF causing so much PTSD in relation to wars that were much more horrifying.

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Because Chinaman can't climb trees like charlie can.

>>34741816
also thanks to helicopters, the soldiers did a lot more fighting than before

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The nature of the war. Korea and ww2 were pretty straight forward fights. Vietnam was an asemetrical hell hole filled with ambushes and traps. That sort of thing puts a lot more wear on your brain.

>>34741816
the asymmetric nature of the conflict plus the hostile reception they received once they returned home

its one thing to get ptsd and get hailed a war hero after winning, its another to get ptsd and come home to some hippie fucks that spit on you and call you a baby killer

>>34741870
>call you a baby killer
But that was the truth.

>>34741889
it also was the truth during the ww2 and korean war too

americqns are accomplished baby killers

>>34741849
>Vietnam was an asemetrical

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA. what the fuck ma nigger?

Vietnam war had clear frontlines and american fucking up on the level where they are not even animals anymore.

>>34741870
>the asymmetric nature

what the fuck you stupid piece of shit?
USa were fucking demons murdering, poisining and burning everything what the touched. for vietnamese it was holy war against demons of hell running wild in their country.

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>>34741902
>Vietcong
>Clear front lines

>Vietcong
>Symmetrical

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>>34741924
xin loi man

>>34741837
Constant low-intensity but high-lethality combat. There are no clear front lines. Every city block and every rural hamlet is a firefight waiting to happen. Was that guy you saw last night tying his shoe or checking on an IED? Who in this crowd of civilians could be a suicide bomber? The guys down in the valley below herd goats by day and take potshots at your FOB by night, how do you determine who's doing it? How do you stop it? Remember, the whole world's watching.

>>34741927
What do you think of the idea Sebastian Junger puts forth? That it's not necessarily the traumatic event, but the isolation of modern society and lack of close knit communities that previously would help them recover from their bad experiences.

>>34741943
I definitely see merit in that position. It's especially important to look at what kind of people generally enlist in the first place. Many are poor, troubled, have a poor home life, or maybe lacking community or opportunity as a civilian join to look for some kind of purpose. Its not like coming back after a deployment would magically make any of that change and magically grant you the support you need to reintegrate.

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>>34741889
So are liberals.

>>34741943
i like the idea that jordan peterson puts forward: PTSD (at least the mental parts, so not necessarily the hyper vigilance etc) comes from an inability to integrate the experiences that you have had into the rest of your worldview. under his model, the solution is to develop a framework of evil so that you can match your experiences to it.

More days in the frontline.

>The common belief is that the fighting in Vietnam was not as intense as in World War II. Fact: The average infantryman in the South Pacific during World War II saw about 40 days of combat in four years. The average infantryman in Vietnam saw about 240 days of combat in one year thanks to the mobility of the helicopter.

>>34741908
I'm sure the south Vietnamese who had their shit pushed in after their American allies pulled out agree with you

>>34741816
Korea and WW2 vets had the support of the country when they came back. They weren't painted as devils by the media.
Also, the economy was better after WW2 and Korea. It was much easier for a vet with no education, since he was fighting the war, to find a job. When you aren't doing anything, it's easier to dwell on the past.
Friends, family and in general life is the only good cure to PTSD. And they were all taken away from Vietnam vets.

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>>34741902
>>34741908
Samefag, butthurt gook.

>>34741816
Guerrilla Warfare 101 was a hard course for us to pass.

>>34741816
A lot of vets from Korea and WW2 killed themselves though.

>>34741826
>IT AINT ME

>>34741849
>pupper knows it lost the game
>even when free food is available
ahh fuck dogs are so cute.

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>>34741816
Why did the Vietnam war fuck up the soldiers more than Indochina War ?

>>34741816
>Why did the Vietnam war fuck up the soldiers more than WW2 and Korea did
They didnt

Soldiers from ww2 were just as fucked up. Stop rolling in the media about how every soldier came home got married, bought a house had kids and lived happily ever after. Vietnam ptsd is only so seemingly prevalent because it was the first war that was actively documented and broadcasted to Americans over TV. This was also the time when ptsd was just starting to be understood. Ww1 was probably worse than all the others purely because of how ridiculously gruesome it was

>>34742007
That sounds way over thought. Typically people with PTSD are biologically programmed to react faster to potential dangers they've encountered I've seen some studies where they monitored brain activity of subjects with PTSD. It's probably just a normal coping instinct for people to adapt to their environment. Leave it to an intellectual to try and throw good / evil or morality and ethics into it. The leading theory in science is that creatures best adaptable to their environment tend to continue on. Looking at it through a modern lens and perspective seems rather irrational if you were an a violent encounter your best chances sometimes is fighting back, in modern times that's considered bad. Throwing a modern lens onto a situation like that would be a bit of a mistake since it kind of ignores people likely have some sort of instinct to behave that way while society is rather artificially promoting to go against that instinct for unity that leads to better team work in a lot of situations since getting an actual team together isn't just as easy as throwing a group together and expecting it'll work without going through a few experiences that defines the dynamic of it regardless of the intentions they groups end goal is.

Normally I don't disagree with what I've heard from that professor, but just all seems way off on this one from anything that seems rational to me.

>>34742590
The guy that mentioned helicopters was sort of onto something. The amount of combat time soldiers sees on average and how long they're exposed to it has increased a lot since WW2.

>>34742603
Exactly. You went from Ww1 where the common theme of war was to throw as many soldiers at something as you could until it fell.

There was one mission/story in Battlefield 1 that talked about some fortress and how they threw some hundreds of thousands of soldiers at it for like a year or something and all of them died. The only took the fortress for like a week then lost it again. Fuckers didn't know shit how to fight and the endless blood bath surely caused a massive amount of trauma. They didn't even know post traumatic stress was a thing back then and threw every weird soldier into a loony house and forgot about him forever

>>34742081

This, and WW2 and Korean vets didn't just hop on a plane and fly home. They spent weeks on ships giving them time to decompress.

>>34741832
Oh and don't forget that when you eventually got to go home people treated you like a monster, even if you were an involuntary conscript.

>>34741889
Yeah that's right, every single American that ever set foot in Asia killed at least 40 babies.

>>34742593
>Normally I don't disagree with what I've heard from that professor, but just all seems way off on this one from anything that seems rational to me.

Even professor can be wrong. The competent profs can own up to being wrong, bad ones double down.

>>34742582
>tu devriendras un chef
Gotta become the big boss

>>34741943
>>34741972
>>34742007

Couple that with the fact that 2-6 years of war are the only structure and the only life experience lots of these guys have while still in a developmental stage in their lives and it makes for a wonderful recipe.

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>>34741870
>>34741889
>>34741991


>40 years later those hippies are politicians who support government funded literal baby killing in their own country

Funny how that worked

>>34742590
Just to clarify, the amount on Americans on /k/ can really skew the perception of what ww2 was like, since the US wasn't fighting the whole fucking time. So at lost less exposure to the worst if it

>>34742593
>Leave it to an intellectual to try and throw good / evil or morality and ethics into it.
Yeah that kinda goes out the window when one remembers you don't have to kill anyone or do anything wrong to have ptsd. That's why it's post traumatic stress disorder and not guilty conscience disorder

The perception Nam was worse is silly, but you are all underage except me so enjoy your memes and don't bother with history or understanding PTS and PTSD in multiple wars. You won't get it in your mother's basement anyway.

You probably believe Hollywood and media memes about all wars. Idiots...

>>34741902
Read a book nigger.

>>34742747
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Snke9v4S2rU

>>34741816
Agent Orange is a hell of a thing

>>34741837
That shit has always been there we are just reconigzing it more and giving it a new name. We used to call it "shell shock".

>>34741902
Nigger what is gurrila warefare? Fucking read a book.

>>34742669
>>34742081
>>34741870

What's funny is that everyone here is sure that the media demonized troops, but they're also relying on media for this "baby-killer" shit.

Acting like the entire population, or even a meaningful cross-section, did this is sheer lunacy.

First of all, use logic. You're a dirty hippy. You see a combat veteran from the Vietnam War. Is it smart for your personal well-being to yell at that man that he is a baby-killer? Would any of you be able to do that to a veteran, even if you really believed it? Do you really think hippies had that much alpha in them?

There is a whole book about how this was invented just like confederate war monuments by veterans who felt bad, because they didn't win and didn't get to be heroes. ("The Spiting Image: Myth, Memory and the Legacy of Vietnam.") It was written by a vietnam vet who became a professor.

He basically examines every documented instance of people spitting on soldiers or calling them baby-killers. And guess what?

THEY LITERALLY ARE ALL FUCKING FAKE.

And you idiots are perpetuating false history like a bunch of vatniks, because it's fun to hate hippies.

I actually agree that hippies are the scum of the earth - but they weren't spitting on VW vets.

>>34742513
A lot of people in this thread are ignorant on that fact and didn't research shit before posting. Shell shock = ptsd

>>34742867

By 1992, the Director of the Connelly Library and curator of the Vietnam War Collection at LaSalle University listed the spitting myth as one of the "Top Six Myths" from the Vietnam era, and observed the myth "derives from the mythopoeic belief that returning GI's were routinely spat upon at some time during their repatriation to the USA. This particular round of tales has become so commonplace as to be treated reverently even among otherwise wisely observant veterans."[2] In 1994, scholar Paul Rogat Loeb wrote, "to consider spitting on soldiers as even remotely representative of the activist response is to validate a lie", and noted that myths like that of antiwar activists spitting on soldiers have rewritten or "erased history".[3] An academic study into the making and shaping of a collective memory found that evidence of antiwar activists targeting troops was virtually nonexistent. Instead, it found popular memory was manipulated by national security elites and a complicit news media by frequently labeling resistors to U.S. war efforts as "anti-troop".[4] As observed by Clarence Page after interviewing Lembcke and Greene, "the stories have become so widely believed, despite a remarkable lack of witnesses or evidence, that ironically the burden of proof now falls on the accused, the protesters; not their accusers, the veterans. Antiwar protesters must prove the episodes didn't happen, instead of the veterans having to prove they did."[5]

The idea, however, that spitting on or mistreating Vietnam veterans was in any way typical or representative of anything in that era is completely false. [...] It is by far the most powerful Vietnam War meme—a cultural unit of information passed from one person to another, like a biological gene—because it can be deployed instantly to silence difficult but necessary conversations about the military. For that reason alone the conventional wisdom is important, because it explains much about our civil-military dynamic today. It is also important, however, to understand why that accepted memory is untrue, and who benefits most from keeping it alive. The myth of the spat-upon Vietnam veteran is a difficult one to challenge. [...] One intrepid soul, Professor Jerry Lembcke, both a Vietnam veteran and an academic researcher from Holy Cross University, stepped into the fray [...] Every time he discusses his findings in a public forum, a hail of angry responses follows, but his explanations and conclusions are compelling and unsettling.
—Diane H. Mazur; Professor of Law at the University of Florida; former Air Force officer; advisor to the National Institute of Military Justice; specialist in civil-military relations.[11]

>>34742878

In his 2009 book, War Stories, historian and Vietnam veteran Gary Kulik devoted a whole chapter to the myth of "Spit-upon veterans". He closely examined Greene's book of letters and the Slate files, as well as the research by Lindgren and Lembcke.[24] Kulik noted the contradictory nature of the stories in Greene's book and concluded that Greene arrogantly dismissed the "surprising number" of veterans who "refuse to believe" the spitting stories, and wrote, "Greene was not just credulous, but negligently irresponsible." Kulik also criticized Lindgren's research, writing, "Lindgren's evidence includes only one single first-person ("I was spit upon") account—the stories that are at the heart of Lembcke's book—and it appears the none of the accounts he cites were actually witnessed by a reporter. Moreover, Lindgren does not cite a single case of a Vietnam veteran spit upon as he returned home, and that was the story that would ultimately be repeated and believed." Kulik concluded that the spitting stories were formulaic and unbelievable, and were propagated to serve the political goals of those who wished to vilify the antiwar movement. "The image of 'hippie' men and women hawking up gobs of phlegm to hurl at the ribbons of veterans, as a pervasive and commonplace act, is surely false."[24]

>>34742874
>Wikipedia

No.

>>34742867

And finally - don't you think it's a little odd that we have film of troops ACTUALLY KILLING BABIES taken in the midst of combat...

But at these protests, which were endlessly covered, there isn't one video of someone spitting on a soldier or calling them a baby-killer?

DAMN.

>>34741902
1/10, made me reply

We were on patrol and we got attacked by a small group of 8 enemy combatants. In the beggining we had no casualities and we pushed forward when an RPG rocket flew past by me, like 1 meter away from me. I just froze and stared at the ground for a few.minutes while a full on firefight was happening around me. In the end we lost 2 man. Ever since that i have flashbacks of that RPG flying past by me.

>>34743044
what conflict was this senpai?

>>34743057
2008 april afghanistan helmand

My grandpa was a crazy korea vet. He had metal plate in his head and would burn you with cigars and such. Bit of a cunt.

>The city of this whole thread

Hasn't this meme been disproven before? WW2 vets were massively fucked up but as a result of a then nascent understanding of PTSD, and a collective avoidance of the problem WW2s traumatized vets weren't as widely discussed until decades later. There's a reason why suicide rates were kinda high between the late 40s and 60s

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>>34741838
No, instead he can climb mountains and lob nades like nobody's business.

>>34741829
This.

>>34741829
This. Look at the current state of things. Fucking embarrassing.

>>34741837
I'm going to blame the time it takes to get back home vs back to previous wars

Back in WWII most infantry was transported in and back war via troopships, thus the amount of time was longer then modern war and gave the troops time to "cool down".

Now you can be from Afghanistan to the United States overnight, the troop has no real time to really settle from a all hostile environment to the environment of the United States

>>34744235
And the drone pilots are sometimes even worse, they can operate drones almost as an 9 to 5 job. Going to war every morning and then be home for dinner can't be good.

>>34743787
Who's the lad in the pic?

>>34741837
Probably because it is more accepted/reported on than it used to be

PTSDs have been documented as far back as the middle ages where knights who somehow survived battles would freak out at the sound of blades

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>>34741902
>Vietnam war had clear frontlines

>>34741816
I think it's a combination of rabid vietkong soldiers, war atrocities, and no support or understanding from your liberal hippy swinging country when u finally come back from hell and get home.

>>34744235
>environment of US
>not hostile

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>>34742867
>>34742874
>>34742878
>>34742888
>wikipedia

>>34741837
>>34744473
They called it shell shock back then, if it were ever diagnosed. Most vets self-medicated with alcohol.


Also, this is a great movie that's pretty related:
>http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0036868/

>>34744599
Also, there were plenty of returning vets from the world wars that applied their combat experience to criminal enterprises, and probably killed more people that any Vietnam vets who snapped.

>>34742563
I AIN'T NO SENATOR'S SON

>>34741816
>Draft high number of mi dang
>Give them actual combat roles
>Let them bunk with the whites
>Their drugs create white mi dang
>Bring mi dang home
It boggles the bucket.

>>34744235
>>34743653
The increase in mobility and consequently exposure to direct combat has already been mentioned but cannot be overstated. 40 days of fighting for a man in WWII versus catching a Huey out to fight four times a week, that's a pretty drastic increase in fighting.

>>34741816
A lot of WWII and Korean vets just went home, lead semi-productive lives, and quietly drank themselves to death. Also average time in combat has increased since WWII.

>>34741816
Ever watched Gran Torino? if not, look it up. Good movie.

>>34741816
>time the average American soldier in WWII spent engaged in combat during one tour
roughly 30 hours.

>time the average American soldier in the Vietnam war spent engaged in combat during one tour
roughly 290 hours.

A lot of WW2 and Korea vets drank themselves to death. For some reason didn't really took off to notice this shit until Vietnam, maybe due to factors of representation in the media. Oh and gooks liked to fuck with G.I. a lot more then NorKs or Germans/Italians ever did.

>>34741991
>Only liberals get abortions.
Take your black and white morality and shove it up your ass

>>34745004
>only faggots have gay sex

Yeah, that's the way it works. Sorry you can't reconcile with your Malthusian progressiveness.

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>>34742590

>>Why did the Vietnam war fuck up the soldiers more than WW2 and Korea did

This.

In Finland you rarely hear about post-war PTSD except "my grandfather woke up screaming at night very often".

But there were lots of cases where young guys never got over the elevated stress levels and LOOKED for trouble, robbing banks or doing something similar. There was lots of alcohol abuse too. And suicides.

The effects of war sort of disappear because of bad documentation and labeling of people as criminals or drunks, completely missing the real reason behind this behavior.

And yeah, they didn't last long, even in 2000 you didn't see that many old guys with severe PTSD and criminal background because they were DEAD.

>>34742867
lmao reddit spacing

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>>34741991
>>34742720
>le abortion is bad meme

It didn't. Vietnam made it a little more popular to discuss. Main words "a little".

>>34741991
>muh third trimester abortion is the norm
>having recognizable human features
B8 and switch

>>34742867
I never said they had PTSD because of hippies, or of the baby killer thing. The portrayal of the war as an unjust endeavor, making the vets feel guilty of doing their duty, is what contributed to their PTSD. The hippie spit is just the cherry on top of the shit cake these guys were served.
We only talk about hippies today because these self-important pricks entered academia. 15% of the population max was ever hippie. Blaming these unimportant imbeciles is giving them too much credit.

>>34741816
Korean war fucked people up. I got a few stories of a korean vet that was a friend's father. He was fucking crazy, the war fried him.

>>34741816
Coming back home and getting spat on and getting called baby killer after you ate shit in a jungle and your administration intentionally mismanaged you.

>>34741816
Helicopters meant you could go into combat much faster than marching or boats, so you'd be out there every day instead of waiting for the next island

>>34741816
First off, Cotton Hill killed fitty men, and lost his shins.

But secondly, the reason PTSD and similar conditions are on the rise since the WW2 era are psychological indoctrination to killing, reflexive combative training, and good ol' stimulants. The whole trick concerning the effectiveness of modern troops is getting them to o the horrible things you want done to other people, before they can think about it. Then those troops get sent home to a society that doesn't give a shit about their problems, and actively discourages them talking out their problems, and discourages use of drugs to help acheive a state of catharsis. Drugs are bad unelss it's meth and you're at war, m'kay?

>>34741816
probably did, just noone cares about the Korean war hence the name "Forgotten War". I'd like to think that sitting on a hill mowing down waves of Chinese conscripts would fuck you up pretty good.

>>34744914
>A lot of WWII and Korean vets just went home, lead semi-productive lives, and quietly drank themselves to death.
This. Also this >>34743653

Because soldiers were forced to slaughter entire villages of innocent people. The Viet Cong were also incredibly fierce guerrilla fighters. They would torture and work to death captured US soldiers.

>>34744447
Xi Ming Pao, being hoisted up by his comrades as he was the one who silenced an American MG nest that had them pinned down.

>>34745179
Exactly. Here (and i assume the same of places like UK and Australia) Many baby boomers have stories of uncles, fathers, neighbors and other elderly community members(WW1 vets back in the 50s and 60s) who clearly suffered from serious mental and emotional issues but were always dismissed as "crazy old men broken by the war", since psychology experts were at that point in time not really knowledgeable about PTSD, so one can only imagine the extreme yet innocent ignorance with which this issue was treated by common folk in small towns and communities all across America.

>>34741816
Vietnam lasted a lot longer than WW2 or Korea, so more time for more soldiers to suffer.

I wonder what the long term effects of the Afghanistan/Iraq/etc. war will be.

Because you weren't allowed to admit you had issues. My grandfather was at Chosin but after a while denied he had ever served and carefully hid evidence to the contrary. Everyone but his wife and mom only found out at the funeral. He wasn't allowed to express how he actually felt about his service so he avoided any situation that might bring it up.

If anyone in this thread hasn't read "On Killing" by Dave Grossman, you ought to do so. He talks about basically everything mentioned in this thread. A good read (and what turned me on to the Rhodesian conflict before I became a /k/ommando)

>>34746801
>t.Lindybeige

>>34742630
In ww1, what we call ptsd was called shell shocked back then. You'd get shipped back to a camp for your injuries and then back to the front lines once you're healed up. Then you were shot by your own side for cowardice.

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>>34741820
>>34741826
>>34741829
>>34741831
>>34741837
>>34741889
>>34742509


>>34742888

Just shut the fuck up. The trauma of the war is not directly correlated to its lethality. WWI produced more psychological trauma than WWII but the human cost was ridiculously higher in WWII.

>>34742582
>>34742874
>>34742878
>>34742867
my uncle was a Vietnam Veteran. He still has the essay that he wrote that was returned to him with an F and the only comment on the essay was "Babykillers don't belong in school." Just... I myself have been called a baby-killer six times. Jesus Christ, please shut the fuck up.

>>34742867
If Antifa are any example, even beta-ass people can get violent with enough mob behind them

>>34751751
>i'll just respond to someone who's made a multipost argument with multiple sources by giving a totally real personal anecdote that'll show em

WW2:

>see horrific fighting maybe for 30 days out of your entire deployment

Vietnam
>see fighting every damn day because you're in a helicopter and also see peoples skin melt off from agent orange

>>34741816
That's cus all the real Korea vets died

>>34752171
People's skin melted from napalm. Agent orange was a defoliant, it killed plants. Round up doesn't make your skin fall off.

>>34741902
are you legit retarded?

>>34742026
Best answer, gets no replies

Oh, /k/

>>34744235
There are several studies that will back you up on that

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>>34746875
>I'd like to think that sitting on a hill mowing down waves of Chinese conscripts would get you pretty hard.
Fixed that for you.

>>34752170
>why even bother doing anything

>>34752243
no why bother posting a personal anecdote that nobody has any reason to believe on an anonymous imageboard you fucking dolt

there's actually a decent level of discourse in this thread and fuckwits like you just have to shit it up

Because Napalm sticks to kids
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9eybY9qFfY

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>>34752250
>cognitive dissonance the post

>medival wars until wwII
>come home after war
>be celebrated a hero
>war is cool
>soldiers are heroes


>any war after wwII
>come home
>war is wrong
>soldiers are scum of society

>>34753102
>This victim complex

>>34753815
>post about soldiers
>he must be a soldier himself!

by that logic you must be...

shit.

>>34741902
This. We actually won vietnam. However Jewish run hollywood propaganda started fabricating the lie that we didn't and it was all bad. We actually kicked their asses. 'Nam vets were "fucked up" because baby boomers are faggots that do too many drugs.

>>34742867
You had people on college campuses that were literally donating money to the Vietcong and you don't believe that even one of these turkey necks would spit on a veteran?

>>34742878
>>34742888
>>34742869
This entire argument is based on a strawman. No one is claiming that entire towns convened together to spit on veterans the local fair or whatever.

What really happened was that these people came home from years of fighting and no one gave a fuck. The previous generations had gotten parades and heroes welcomes and they received very little of that, and were mostly fucked up by the nature of the war. "oh you were in Vietnam, cool whatever" was the most common response.

There WERE radical leftists who did shit like that though. Look up the SDS, Weather Underground, SLA, Black Liberation Army. They had tons of sympathy on college campuses. Imagine being a soldier actually going to college on the GI bill. What do you think he had to deal with? use your fucking brain fagtard.

>>34745455
>it doesn't look like a human so it isn't a human

>>34744254
Fuck those faggots though. I have no respect for Anyone who bombs the shit out of people (including civilians) without putting them-self in any real danger.

>>34741870
>go to europe and kill whites
>get hailed as war hero

>go to some SEA shithole and kill chink rats
>get called a monster
amerimongrels, everybody.

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>>34744254
Man that has got to fuck with your head. I mean I don't like drones or drone "pilots" but still. That isn't healthy. It's some serious cyberpunk dystopia vibes

>>34743044
Thanks man, appreciate the share.