The thing that matters most in a defensive situation is penetration.

Yeah I know OP but people will still post that opinionated crap article from the guy who works at the morgue or whatever.

>>34729447
People love using the story of a single persons experience and holding it up against a collection of statistics collected and interpreted by a large group. They think it's a good comparison.

>>34729447
That rambling article has been circulating around recently for some reason. For all intents and purposes it's just an opinionated blogpost of one man.

I would prefer to trust the FBI's methodology, an organization that is committed to optimizing handgun round ballistics for their agents after the Miami shootout, and they came to the conclusions I posted.

>>34728412
>A shot that is not fired into the area of the vitals
As far as instant death is concerned, the only vital organ is the brain stem. You can live with a bullet through any other part of the body, albeit for only a very short time.
>will be a mere bleeding wound
Every wound not in the brain stem is a "mere bleeding wound." Death is caused by bleeding.
>>34729485
>collection of statistics
Accurate and meaningful statistics are very to find. There are simply too many confounding variables.

Yes bro, everyone knows this. People only argue because they are autistic and have nothing else to do.

>>34729504
>I would prefer to trust the FBI's methodology, an organization that is committed to optimizing handgun round ballistics for their agents after the Miami shootout, and they came to the conclusions I posted.
The FBI is a bunch of government bureaucrats. Their opinions are no more authoritative than those of some guy on the internet.

>>34729504
>>34728412
if you can get expansion as well as adequate penetration that is better than just adequate penetration.

handguns don't always have adequate penetration, FMJ would help in those instances.

>>34729507
>As far as instant death is concerned, the only vital organ is the brain stem.
I go into that detail
>Every wound not in the brain stem is a "mere bleeding wound." Death is caused by bleeding.
And rapid death is caused by rapid bleeding. If I shoot your shoulder but miss the subclavian artery, you will bleed. But if I hit the subclavian artery you will bleed rapidly and die much more quickly. Hence why there is a difference between being wounded and mortally wounded.

>>34729526
Really nigga

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>>34729526
They don't just make shit up. They do extensive ballistics testing.

>>34729560
>if you can get expansion as well as adequate penetration that is better than just adequate penetration.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. The more expansion you have, the less penetration you have.
>>34729567
>Really nigga
Yes, really.
>>34729572
>extensive ballistics testing
That's a nice way of saying they shoot jelly. Shooting jelly is a great way to measure how a bullet performs in jelly. If you really want to test how a bullet performs in a person without going full Mengele, use a live hog.

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fuck this shit. I'm buying a glock 20, and buying a carbine conversion.

>>34729600
The departments and bureaus used to shoot cadavers and hogs but they moved to ballistic gelatin because it was more scientifically repeatable. Ballistic gelatin isn't just the jello you ate when you were a kid.

>>34729619
>more scientifically repeatable
As in they can get the results they want?

>>34729608
Might as well have a real rifle chambered for a for rifle cartridge. You think 10 mm is macho? Try 125 grain 308 at 900 meters per second.
>>34729619
>Ballistic gelatin isn't just the jello you ate when you were a kid.
I'm aware. Fun fact: the stuff gummy bears are made of is remarkably good at stopping bullets.
>used to shoot cadavers and hogs but they moved to ballistic gelatin because it was more scientifically repeatable.
Repeatability is all well and good, but not if the gel fails to simulate real world conditions. There are documented cases of bullets that did well in jelly but failed in real life, proving that jelly is not a satisfactory test medium. Abstract reasoning does not trump concrete reality.

>>34729668
That's not a good argument for the cadaver guy btw.

>>34729668
Ballistics gel is supposed to simulate flesh you dribbling retard.

>>34729707
Why isn't it?
>>34729720
It's supposed to, but it doesn't. Things are not always what they are supposed to be.

>>34729726
Your entire argument is "ballistics gel isn't good because it's too scientific, therefore, one autsits opinions from working at a morgue are superior over decades of FBI and numerous ballistics data"

>>34729507
No

>>34729770
>Your entire argument is "ballistics gel isn't good because it's too scientific,
No, my argument is that it isn't good because it is not realistic.
>>34729770
>one autsits opinions from working at a morgue are
I never referenced that guy. I never said he was correct.
>>34729770
>superior over decades of FBI and numerous ballistics data"
I don't care how long the FBI has been doing it. They can shoot jelly from now until the end of time, and it still won't make it a valid test medium.
>>34729798
Not an argument.

desu 45 is better against fat people nad 9mm is better against skinny people

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm

45 can punch through bone much more reliably.

To be pedantic, reliability and shot placement should be higher priorities. No hole or a hole in the wrong thing makes a lot more of a difference than halving the hole depth.

9mm is a cheap plinking round, or a military last ditch mag dump and run round.

If you're serious about killing a man with a handgun, a 1911 in .45ACP is the preferred choice. If you want a one shot stop with a handgun, then it's .454 Casull-- but you better get it done with one round, because you'll be deaf and blind for the second half of a double tap.

When will we get 20x15mm pistols so people can complain about it being too powerful and weak

>>34730544
>454 Casull
It literally has the same pressure as a full size rifle cartridge.

>>34729815
It's your opinion that ballistics gel isn't a valid test medium.

It is fact however, that it is. Your opinion is literally worthless here

>>34730607
>Your opinion is literally worthless here

As is yours.

Nigger.

>>34730607
No, it's a fact that bullets perform differently in real bodies than in jelly. We have documented cases of this with X-rays of people who've been shot.

>>34730637

This. You can shoot Jello all day long, and the only results you will achieve is what happens when you shoot Jello.

Just get a .357 OP, .45 is a meme round and wind resistance greatly reduces it's penetrating power despite it being a bigger bullet and anything that's 9mm will have no stopping power as proven by Arnold Schwarzenegger in Rambo, Mortal Kombat, and the Terminator movies.

>>34730675
>wind resistance greatly reduces it's penetrating power


LMFAO

>>34730607
Hey, guess what anon! Fact means a concrete statement that can be supported by evidence! Opinion is a belief due to emotional response! For example: .308 is better than .223 is an opinion, as it depends on user preference. .308 has more muzzle energy than .223 is a fact, as it is a concrete statement supported by empirical measurement. A fact does not have to be true to be a fact, it only has to be concrete and empirical. Stating .223 will blow up a deer is a fact because it could be empirically tested, even though it's not true!
>look it up
>it's in a book
>you fucking homo!

>>34730691
>A fact does not have to be true to be a fact
I agree with everything you said up to here. When people say something is a fact, they mean that it is indisputably, objectively true. I would say it is a fact that 223 WON'T blow up a deer, since plenty of deer have been shot with 223, and none of them have exploded. Saying that a deer will explode when shot with 223 is what we call a factual error.

>>34730691
>Stating .223 will blow up a deer

Some states don't allow deer hunting with a .223. It is just a .22 caliber with a bit more oomph behind it than a .22lr.

>>34730710
I say that it is an objective fact that .223 will blow up a deer*!

*[spoiler]provided that said deer is a carcass that's been stuffed full of sensitive explosives.[/spoiler]

>>34729938
Wish he had more details on which bullets performed better on bone. He's seen "some" .380 and 9mm and deflects, well which ones so I can just not carry those.

>>34730733
If he worked in a morgue, they probably told him what cartridge the body was shot with, but I doubt they told him the brand of munitions.

>>34730607
I hope you're trolling

>>34729507
Incapacitation is as effective as instant death for stopping a threat. In that regard, shots to the spinal column, heart (and to a lesser degree) lungs work just as well as the brain stem.

>>34730763
>heart
Not always. Even with the heart punctured, there's still oxygen in the blood. It takes a little time for the brain stem to run out of oxygen. Deer hunters know this all too well.

>>34730789
>It takes a little time for the brain stem to run out of oxygen

In the days of the guillotine, the executioner would hold up the severed head. usually it would blink, make faces, and try to mouth words.

>>34729526
the information they collect is good, the conclusions they come to are good, its the decisions they make with that information need to be taken with a grain of salt

>>34728412
>Buy 10mm for semis
>Buy .357 mag or above for revolvers

Ok now that we've established that, can everyone stop shitposting in a summer meme thread.

>>34731060
>the information they collect is good, the conclusions they come to are good
Says who?
>>34731087
People bitch about recoil too much for that.

>>34731087
But why get .357 for revolvers when you can just use 9mm instead? Revolvers are one of the few guns where 9mm is preferred.

>>34731579
Because 357 magnum is a lot faster than 9mm, especially with heavy bullets.

>>34729504
FBI is shit because they need to use special snowflake calibers since muh stronk and independent wymin agents can't shoot normal calibers like .45 ACP

>>34731595
Quality post

>the thing that matters most in a defensive situation is penetration
OPs penis is ruled out, then.

>>34732547
You're almost 13 hours and 49 posts late on making an OP joke. Kys

>>34731579
Because 9mm will just bounce of him if you hit his ribs while .357 has that 90+% stopping power

9mm he will hire a lawyer
.357 he will have a trip to the morgue

>>34728412
>The thing that matters most in a defensive situation is penetration.

That's as far as I read. The ACTUAL thing that matters most in a defensive situation is shot placement.

After you wind up in jail because you can't aim for shit and hit an innocent child instead of your assailant, then you can worry about 'penetration'.

>>34730607
>It's your opinion that ballistics gel isn't a valid test medium.
Not really, even the FBI put big disclaimers that ballistics gel does not accurately simulate human flesh, muscle, bone, and organ tissues. The amount of penetration is supposed to take into account bone and the other tissues, but it is very poor, since even a .380 and .22 can consistently over penetrate a gel block, but it is not so reliable when it comes to actual bone.

>>34729919
That has to be the dumbest thing I've read today and I just finished up at /b/ before coming here.

The only guaranteed way to instantly incapacitate someone is to shoot them in the head.

>>34732635
>Because 9mm will just bounce of him if you hit his ribs
[citation needed]

>>34732668
Top kek

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>>34730626
let's see

facts supporting your opinion
>

facts supporting that ballistics gelatin is a legitimate medium for testing
>literally an entire fucking library of literate

Daily reminder that .357 Sig is the best handgun cartridge against humans, and the FBI agrees

>>34732968
Even then, it's not guaranteed. Many people have survived brain injuries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

>>34733121
>literally an entire fucking library of literate
That's not even a complete sentence. What are you trying to say? Library of literate what?

>>34729652
i mean they don't fucking stick their hand in and make the hole bigger. what they shoot is what you see, and although ballistic jelly =/= human tissue if one round penetrates more than another then it would seem reasonable that it would also have more penetration power on human tissue. shoot the same type of jelly every time, better than shooting a different hog every time.