Serious question. If shot placement, not caliber, is what determines

>>34715999
Hollow points help prevent overpenetration.

>>34716043
Yes, but then you risk under penetration. Also, would a bullet really be going fast enough after passing through a person to hurt another person on the other side? I'm honestly not sure if that's true or just a myth.

>>34716059
I find it's best to carry three handguns, one loaded with FMJ, one with hollow points, and one with blanks. I have spent many threads arguing about what works best, and came to realize that everything has its time and place. I am never not prepared.

>>34716059
That's why you buy hollow points that have met the FBI standards for penetration. If you want to take that risk then go ahead.

>>34715999

because shot placement assumes you will hit exactly where needed

real life doesn't work like that, go to liveleak and search for robber, all those people getting shot most of them run away

>>34716256
>That's why you buy hollow points that have met the FBI standards for penetration
Those FBI standards are determined with blocks of jelly, which doesn't have bones, skin, clothing, or dense muscle.
>>34716256
>If you want to take that risk then go ahead.
I'm looking facts that will allow me to evaluate that risk, not internet rumors and speculation.
>>34717720
I realize that expecting perfect shot placement with one shot or even with several is optimistic at best, but the argument from 9mm advocates seems to be that shot placement is the ONLY thing that matters and that caliber is irrelevant as long as you have enough shots. If that's the case, why bother using hollow points?

>>34715999
Shot placement is king with pistol rounds. When you get to rifle rounds, shot placement isn't nearly as critical,due to massive wounds caused by high velocity rounds.

>>34717911
You're not answering my question. If shot placement is king (which it may very well be), then why use hollow points?

>>34715999
I fill my hollows with my own shit to cause sepsis.

>>34717942
See
>>34716043

>>34717942

Not him but

>ball ammo for rifles causes alot of damage so you don't need hollowpoints
>ball ammo in pistols isn't moving fast enough to cause the amount of damage a ball round from a rifle.

Hollowpoints are designed to spread open and cause the most amount of damage they can from a relatively slow bullet

>>34715999
I prefer FMJ since I know it's the most reliable to feed, and what I train with.

I would rather deal with the repercussions of over penetrating than under penetrating, should I use my gun defensively.

>>34717968
How often do you reload the tips with new excrement? Or will old dry shit work just as well?

>>34718004
Now you're changing the story. First it was said that shot placement is all that matters. Now you're saying expansion matters too. Which is it? Those two statements can't both be true.

>>34715999
>FMJ

Why so it can go through the attacker and the wall and hit the neighbors house?

>>34718048
Has that ever actually happened or it is just a rumor?

>>34718042

It's both m8


Just shoot the guy in the chest with hollowpoints from a pistol or fmj from a rifle

>>34718097
>It's both m8
Are you telling me that those 45 ACP guys are actually on to something when they talk about cross sectional area?

Because HP rounds feature several advantage over FMJ rounds with no real disadvantages. Therefore you can have both shot placement and better rounds.

It's having your cake and eating it too.

>>34718169
No because that has several obvious problems.

>>34718231
>feature several advantage over FMJ rounds
Such as?
>>34718231
>No because that has several obvious problems.
Which are?

>>34715999
I wouldn't entirely dismiss the size of the permanent cavity. Adaquate penetration and shot placement is most important, but expansion does help fuck things up worse inside a person

>>34716059
Handguns and rifles are a little different.

Hollwpoints are basically insurance for civilian CC.

>>34715999
Hollow points expand, thus giving you a better chance of hitting something vital

>>34715999

First most important is penetration minimums met, next is shot placement, then comes wound size.

You don't invest everything in one area anon, you want it to have rounded traits but minimum penetration has to be met and over penetration is wasted energy. Stop being autistic and concentrating in one area

>>34717879

You're a troll or autistic, this is simple stuff

>>34718029
Everyday. I just keep packing it in there.

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>>34718264
>HP advantages
Expansion and lack of over penetration.

>.45 disadvantages
Capacity, recoil, low velocity.

While overall isn't paramount- to a point, no .22 isn't a good defensive round-, there's no reason not to use expanding rounds as they offer no disadvantages.

I know this is a bait thread and you're trying use some loopy argument to justify why .45 is better than 9mm, but can you at least pretend not to be retarded?

>>34718366
>Expansion
So wound size channel diameter is important after all?
>>34718366
>lack of over penetration
Is overpenetration really a thing? Do people actually get injured by bullets that have passed through other people?
>>34718366
>as they offer no disadvantages
What about insufficient penetration? I've seen X-rays that show hollow points not going deep enough.
>>34718366
>I know this is a bait thread and you're trying use some loopy argument to justify why .45 is better than 9mm,
No, I'm not. I don't have a handgun yet. I'm trying to learn the facts of the matter before I buy one. Learning the truth is difficult when everybody in the gun community just calls each other stupid and makes unproven assertions in order to justify their own bias.

>>34715999
>2k17
>posting in zed threads

On a most basic level you can see a potential need for HP style ammo, or in general ammo that does "something" at least, by the way that most FMJ ammo exhibits excessive penetration.

I SAY AGAIN, FMJ HAS MORE PENETRATION THAN IS DESIRABLE WITH MANY CALIBERS

This means that the round is wasting energy on things down range of our target that could be used on it instead. This is not what we are trying to accomplish and can pose a danger to people/things that are not our target.

By designing a round to expand you are designing it to

1. cause more damage

2. dump more energy

3. penetrate less.

Furthermore as all three of these can be attained while keeping penetration to an ideal level(depending on caliber) it is effectively a free lunch.

There are also notable differences between wounds caused by FMJ and JHPs of the same caliber that(on the average) make JHPs more desirable if a chambering has enough energy to still penetrate adequately. those are:

1.Bullets with a flat nose surface tend to penetrate more linearly, meaning you hit what your aiming at inside of the body and not just where you were aiming on the skin. Deflection is a notorious issue with some FMJ rounds.

2. Holes poked in tissue by a RN projectile are actually smaller than the projectile as the round pokes the nose through and then the tissue stretches to accommodate the rounds passage, rebounding afterwards.

3. #2 combined with an easily 50%+ increase in diameter means that wounds tracts are actually more than 50% larger per round than over FMJ.

FMJ has no purpose in SD other than feeding reliability. Even if maximum penetration is your goal and you don't "believe" in expansion, RN rounds do that better than FMJ while making a wound that won't close back up as easily.

>>34718436
>Do people actually get injured by bullets that have passed through other people?
Yes.

http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2014/10/6-self-defense-court-cases-need-know/#2lead-rico-spaulding-ground-shoot-w-attacker-5625

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Did someone say Lehigh?
Idgaf if /k/ likes them or not, I carry these
>inb4 meme tier

>>34718442
That all sounds very reasonable and convincing, but do you have sources for your factual assertions?

>>34718577
>>34718577
>ye olde devel bullet
>literally a meme that's older than i am
It's meme tier but it does seem to kinda sorta work for some things like preventing over penetration. Not convinced it causes more damage than an FMJ/RN round in anything but a rifle though if were talking about flesh and not gel...

>>34718642
Which ones in specific? some i still have and some i've lost over the years.

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>>34718577

>>34718652
The one about flat bullets penetrating straighter.

>>34718652
I use 9mm handloads on small game all the time, used to use Gold Dots cause I used to carry those
Small critters on my farm made me a believer, I've never seen a cat "balloon" from a handgun before

>>34718695
I should probably include skunks, possum, groundhogs, and more possums. Like 2 rabid cats got on my farm once, I felt bad both times

>>34718677
Oh man, that's the one i lost.

There are certainly numerous writings on the subject though, It's a very old hunting trick that's been understood for about a hundred years and used for even longer.

I can indirectly and anecdotally show that FMJ rounds have a propensity for deflection rather easy but that'll take a little looking to find something that isn't a fudd forum post. ill try to get back to you on it.

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>>34718738
Look up the supercavitation effect
That's the bit you're missing on the subject. The flat nose creates a tiny air pocket around the bullet and reduces drag through fluid, contrary to the round nose pushing things gently out of the way and following the path of least resistance in a medium.
This is from the Lehigh fan, working on a similar principle to create a wound channel - like a hard cast flat nose - but in a more exaggerated way. I don't buy shit without looking into the phenomenon.
You should also read up on Brinell hardness, and you will understand that solid copper is nearly twice as hard as the hardest practical lead to use for hunting, meaning at a solid Brinell of 35 copper has a very low chance of deforming through bone. (Soft) Brass can be used in rifles, with a Brinell of 60, making Lehighs brass rifle stuff appealing to me for bone penetration stability again.

>>34718738
Thanks.
>>34718820
>The flat nose creates a tiny air pocket around the bullet and reduces drag through fluid, contrary to the round nose pushing things gently out of the way and following the path of least resistance in a medium.
Are you sure? That sounds like advertising hype.

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>>34718847
Lehigh doesn't advertise the effect. It;s written from African big game studies. Lehigh found a way to use it differently, in my opinion.
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/more-stable-penetration-with-a-new-solid-bullet.14771/
Of course you don't know me and I don't expect you to trust me, but the information is there.

>>34716059
FMJ rounds can definitely hurt another person after they pass through someone.

Example: When Kennedy was shot in the head, the bullet continued, hit John Connolly in the back, and continued through his body and out his leg I think it was

>>34718847
im this anon>>34718738

still looking FYI but i've found multiple sources saying the same as him, except that it's a hydraulic effect and not air. It's kinda like when you drop a textbook on a tile floor and it makes a really loud cracking sound because the air can't get out of the way quick enough at the very end.

Being noncompressible the largely liquid substrate has to get out of the way of the bullet somehow. The energy of the bullet accelerates it outwards and this outwards moving tissue tears the hole the bullet is making wider.

An effect know about by hunters since the late 1800s but really came into the common conscience of 20th century hunters with the writings of elmer keith who spoke much on the subject. Still looking for an online copy of his writings or somebody who quotes him/did similar work with a smoking gun in it where they directly say what i claim instead of implying it.

>>34718891
>2017
>completely tossing out the theory there were multiple shooters

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In my humble opinion, there aren't bad calibers but there are plenty of bad bullets in popular calibers today.

>>34718282
Felony murder rule is my insurance. I carry hallowpoints because I wouldn't live with the guilt of killing an innocent bystander. Also because it looks better to DAs.

>>34718891
Yeah, but that was a rifle bullet that probably had twice the sectional density and twice the speed of your typical handgun bullet.
>>34718960
>Being noncompressible the largely liquid substrate has to get out of the way of the bullet somehow. The energy of the bullet accelerates it outwards and this outwards moving tissue tears the hole the bullet is making wider.
I know that water in bodies explodes when you shoot it, especially with a fast bullet, but we're talking handguns. That effect is far less pronounced than with rifles.
>>34719032
Such as?

>>34717942
HP mushrooms into a larger diameter, which makes a slightly off-target shot able to still hit vitals.

It also does more damage when it fails to hit vitals altogether, by opening up more blood vessels.

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>>34717879
>skin ... dense muscle.
gel was designed to simulate exactly those things. That's the point.
>clothing
Adding layers of denim in front is standard procedure for testing hollow points. Any caliber you wanna check you should be able to find tests that include 4 layers of denim

http://www.brassfetcher.com/FBI%20Ammunition%20Protocol/FBI%20Ammunition%20Protocol.html

You're right about the bone. I haven't found many people testing bone or bone simulants.

>>34718436
>I'm trying to learn the facts of the matter before I buy one. Learning the truth is difficult when everybody in the gun community just calls each other stupid and makes unproven assertions in order to justify their own bias.
lol no, you're the exact same faggot who was posting last night. You even reply the same. Try harder. This thread is getting some interesting information though so I'm posting.

>>34716255
You can downsize what you carry by just staggering rounds in the magazine. I carry rounds in this order: FMJ, Blank, HP, HP, Blank, Hp, FMJ, FMJ, Blank, HP, Blank, Blank, FMJ, HP, Blank. If I need to use my gun I can just miss a few times until I find the bullet I need for the task.

>>34720403
>slightly
If by slightly you mean about a centimeter.
>>34720760
>gel was designed to simulate exactly those things. That's the point.
So, it wasn't. A layer of skin is worth several inches of gel. Muscle is denser than fat, and gel can't control for that.
>>34720760
>Adding layers of denim in front is standard procedure for testing hollow points. Any caliber you wanna check you should be able to find tests that include 4 layers of denim
Most people wear more than that in the winter.
>>34720801
I don't know what you're talking about.
>>34720828
Actually, starting with a soft point and keeping solids in the magazine was common among safari hunters.

>>34718891
>There was only one shooter
Yes, good goyim.