Why did police carry revolvers instead of 1911s back in

>>34685155
Because until the 80s policing, especially outside of cities, was more about PR and a revolver was fine for that. If things got bad they would still probably have a shotgun in the cruiser.

>>34685185
Wouldn't a 1911 be fine for that too?

>>34685155
Back in the good ol days the police just beat people to death.

Now they are too fat to beat on folks with melanin, so they gotta glock em.

>>34685155
Because there was a time when Police didn't need MRAPs and full-auto M4's to handle American citizens.

(Also coincidentally the blacks had significantly less rights, but hey, coincidences am I right?)

Watch old episodes from cops like late 80s to early 90s, it is insane how different cops reacted to situations.

>>34685245
The police would have no qualms about using those MRAPs and M4s on your white ass.

>>34685155
>less maintnace
>less threatening
>more reliable
>cheaper

>>34685245
Coppers had full auto weapons as far back as the 20's.
You think they whacked Bonnie and Clyde with their trusty wheelgats?

>>34685304
What I would do for a police special Remington model 8

It was considered inappropriate for police to have the same weapons as the military.

Now of course our cops are armed paramilitary tax collectors who can roll out to the latest domestic disturbance in their MRAP covered in black body armor with machine guns.

>>34685338
>It was considered inappropriate for police to have the same weapons as the military.
No, it wasn't. They had the same rifles and shotguns as the military.

>>34685353
Who can forget the classic "Look like a faggot, get a burnt hand" Colt's AR-15 advertisement

>>34685358
Thumb through the A-post? Yeah, still remember it.

>>34685292
Of course they would but that's because I don't do niggery things and strive to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

revolvers were considered to be more reliable, and because of their double actions were considered safe to carry condition 2. Many departments even today are very, very uncomfortable with condition 1 carry on hammer fired weapons (for stupid reasons, but reasons nevertheless).

It wasn't until the Miami FBI shootout happened where most cops realized the .38 don't cut it anymore, which just happened to be right around the same time that Gaston Glock's plastic fantastic wonder hit the market

>>34685155
Because at the time police usually didn't carry rifles, but many pistol rounds wouldn't handle windshield glass well. The answer was revolvers in magnum calibers.

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>>34685226

>>34685526
>the .38 don't cut it anymore
This, by the late 1980s due to the crime waves of the 70s the surviving Americans had become considerably more bulletproof and it was difficult for a .38spl to pierce their thick rhinoceros-like hide and protective layer of blubber. Evolution is really amazing.

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>>34685155
Being effective in a firefight wasn't as important.

not to mention revolvers worked and 1911s didnt offer than much more capacity and mags werent highspeed low drag like they are today. You used to have to forcibly pull the mag out where as today the almost fall out of every gun, even putting a mag in back then required a bit more effort. Although they were still tactically more effective than reloading a revolver.

many cops did carry 1911s and wonder 9's. It just wasnt as common.

>>34685155

Some did, and some carried varied other things.

And as for the people doing the "muh scary assault cops" shit, here's the BLUF:

Just as we tell anti-gunners, as weapons tech changes, the concurrent need for whatever catches up to that does as well. In 1970, the worst you were likely to encounter was revolvers, Saturday night specials, shotguns and maybe some manner of subgun on average street thugs. Long guns were brought out if overwhelming force was needed or if long guns were possessed by the enemy.

Nowadays, semi-auto handguns, AK and AR variants, MAC-10 and Uzi Copies, shotguns, and varied other tactical sundries are commonplace and not unimaginably rare. Same with body armor and minorities that went from working generations to welfare generations. As society advances, so do weapons.

Of course, being /k/, I'm sure you'd feel 200% confident responding to a domestic call in the worst part of a big city with just your GP100.

Maybe it's because I'm a milfag welfare queen and my view is skewed, but the only appropriate amount of firepower is the overwhelming kind.

"I think the first thing one should ask of their pistol is that it be unfair" -Jeff Cooper

>>34685593
>the only appropriate amount of firepower is the overwhelming kind
That's great for if you're fighting a fuckin war or putting down an insurgency, but I personally don't really want the jackbooted thug pulling me over to collect the "you did 55 in a 54 zone" tax to have overwhelming firepower on the other end of his itchy trigger finger in case I sneeze and take my hands off the wheel for a quarter-second

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>Implying the Supergun wasn't all they needed.

>>34685626

It's not that bad and you know it. And I never said they should be getting out with an AD, but a high-capacity semi-auto handgun is perfectly in order. I have never had an issue with cops, guns and getting pulled over and I guarantee I've been driving longer than you.

My grandfather was a police chief in bumfuck West Virginia in the early 50s and bought thompsons for the entire department to carry in their cars just because he wanted them, I think the only time a gun was ever discharged on the job during his time there was to kill an injured deer

>>34685593
>Nowadays, semi-auto handguns, AK and AR variants, MAC-10 and Uzi Copies, shotguns, and varied other tactical sundries are commonplace and not unimaginably rare
false
most common crime guns are normal pedestrian handguns

>>34685292
>butthurt nigger detected

>>34685681
Yeah I was just jerking your chain. I'm white so I don't give a shit what weapons cops carry.

Because for most of the 20th century the 1911 had a reputation for just "going off" randomly, this was of course in the days before trigger discipline was a thing. So most agencies went with revolvers for the double action trigger. With the occasional exception of the 3rd gen S&W autos and a couple others it wasn't until Glock came along with the Safe Action Trigger that autos became acceptable.

>>34685322
What i would do for an FBI Monitor

>>34685304
They borrowed the national guards, bud

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1911s are a terrible platform

The ammo capacity of a revolver with maybe one more round

.45 has no place in the modern day

"stopping power" is a meme. Only when the superior 9mm become the world's best pistol round did police make the switch.

If you havent noticed no US police force uses the 1911 today. Because every has known that the 1911 is shit except your grandaddy people who fetishize killing nazis because they lack a purpose and sense of self-worth

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>>34686002
>and before you could say 'Mar-a-Lago' the task was done
I guess it takes about 7 months to start saying Mar-a-Lago huh

>>34685593
>unironically using "sundries"

Nerd.

Many reasons. One being the ease of operation, cost, and maintenance compared to the 1911, but there was a whole culture of police revolvers before and then after the end of Prohibition. People did not want a heavily armed police force with "military" weapons and few departments even needed them or allocated funds for them. They were always available though. The smaller departments and constables, etc. had to arm themselves. My grandfather was a constable at a podunk department in the country that picked up the cheapest 32 revolver possible and never used it. Firearms violence didn't pick up here until the Civil Rights movement when rioting and racial violence peaked. Things really changed in that regard after the 1987 Miami incident, where a semi-auto actually was used by one officer. Compared to some of the semi-autos on the market like the early SW's (659s and so on) 357 revolvers pobably were a better option. All of the training up to that point also reflected that bias towards revolvers. Things really escalated with the rise in narcotics enforcement and only got worse through the 90's, which is when Glock showed up with a solution to basically all of the problems both revolvers and steel frame semi's had given police.

The War on Drugs turned 50%+ of the population into """criminals""" overnight and cops suddenly were at """war""" with 50%+ of Americans

>>34685201
From what I hear 1911 was very strongly associated with the military after WWII and a lot of people didn't want to be reminded of the war.

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>>34685536
>file name

>>34685245
Yeah but they did have Thompsons, m14's, and all other manner of military surplus too>>34685284

>>34685681
That's a pretty tall assumption there. On the other handle anecdotal evidence might as well not be evidence at all, especially when talking about individual LEOs.

Why don't you like cops /k/?

>>34685762
>Because for most of the 20th century the 1911 had a reputation for just "going off" randomly, this was of course in the days before trigger discipline was a thing.

While it is true that there were plenty of deaths that happened through negligence, something you should consider is that the 1911, unlike a revolver or a Glock, actually has the potential to accidentally discharge solely due to mechanical failure. Double action revolvers have had things like rebounding hammers and transfer bars since the beginning of the 20th century, while Glocks have a firing pin block. Both guarantee that the gun will be mechanically incapable of firing unless the trigger is actually pulled.

This is not the case on a vintage 1911, which has no such safety measures. If you are carrying cocked and locked with a round in the chamber and you drop the gun or the sear gets tripped thanks to tolerance stacking, the gun will discharge. This is less of a problem with modern 1911s, but it was a very real issue for at least the first 50 years after the gun was introduced.

>>34685681
"Can I scratch my nose"
"Yes"
BLAM BLAM BLAM
>no wrongdoing

it's literally that bad you complete idiot

>>34685741

I'm aware, but those weapons are out there with great numbers in the wrong hands. The retired cop next to me had a guy draw a MAC-10 on him.

>>34686405

Give me one article where a non-threatening nose scratch made it happen and I'll suck your dick.

>>34686126

You know It bb

>>34685758

Same.

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>>34685555

underrated post and also quads

>>34686464
> The retired cop next to me had a guy draw a MAC-10 on him
almost certainly a semi-auto one, which means he had a guy draw a big clunky inaccurate glock on him
literally the same as a glock with a big mag

>>34686405
You forget the part where the cop who does it immediately starts apologizing and talking about how he just had an argument with his wife a few minutes earlier.

>>34686479
John geer.

Pretty good example of why holding somebody at gun point with your finger on the trigger is a bad idea.

>>34685581
>Being effective in a firefight wasn't as important.

This. Have you ever seen an old movie where the police officer sort of squats and hipshoots his gat? Yeah, thats what they taught at the academy back in the day.

>>34686535

Yeah, a 25 round bullet hose, which means that modern high-speed tacticool handguns are in fact, the only option for urban police work. Again, not saying that cops need to walk around with an AR constantly, but having a vest, helmet, and modernized long gun is completely necessary.

>>34686607

>John Geer
>having anything to do with being pulled over
>standoff

Just admit it, man, you hate cops because it's cool and because oppression from above is the reason for your downtrodden existence.

>>34686184
you mean, the black people?

>>34686762
>inaccurate, nostalgic memory of the past

>>34687106
>racist bullshit
There are plenty of white people who use drugs too.

>>34687092
>you hate cops because it's cool
Except it isn't. The police enjoy widespread popular support. If anyone is blindly following absurd social trends, it's you.

>>34687135

I don't know what world you're living in, but hating on cops is hipsterfag leftyshit 101 nowadays, my dude.

>>34685536
compensator9000

>>34687092
Not him. You asked for one case of a nose scratching resulting in a shooting and i did. You didn't specify in your request that it had to be a traffic stop. i gave you a case with a mountain of evidence and several LEO witnesses.

Careful backpedaling so quickly, you might trip on something and get shot by a LEO for "reaching towards his waist"

>>34686002
>platform
>maybe one more

>>34687153
Anti-police policies were a mainstream view in the 1870s and before. Nowadays, very, very few people support abolishing police departments. Those who do are considered radical even among anarchist circles, which is really saying something.
>>34687153
>hipsterfag leftyshit 101 nowadays
Police, by definition, enforce the will of the political establishment. Leftists ARE the political establishment, so it stands to reason that the left support keeping a strong police force.

>>34687182

You know the context. You cleverly worked around it. The state of police violence in America is not that bad, and you know it. You picked out a standoff situation, which is entirely different than what we were talking about. I know this is 4chan and you've been waiting all week to use words like backpedaling, changing the goalposts, straw man, and logical fallacy all week, but c'mon.

>>34687153
I better start loving cops, less more fags online call me names.

>>34685636
>Shoot the fuel tank
>in a pursuit

>>34687208

Do you just not use social media? Or watch TV? The majority of people at the throats of the cops are leftists. The box of 4chan is not the world.

>>34687238

Damn straight. Or you can "touch your nose" and get shot.

>>34686302

Quite true yes, I think it's safe to assume though that at least half that reputation comes from people fingering the trigger when it wasn't appropriate. Especially if the 1911 in question was well-worn milsurp.

>>34687251
say that to my face pig, no backup

>>34687267

>implying I'm a cop

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>>34687298
So just a pd groupie then?

>>34687226
Reread comment chain.

Overarching context was police interactions with civilians in america, particularly whether they use uncalled for force and how that relates to the weapons they carry.

Being pulled over was just used as an example of a LEOs typical duties. Even when talking about it yourself your punctuation implies such.

Also, im not sure how much passive refusal of orders by an unarmed man counts as a standoff. Standoff implies that the individual is armed.

He was shot intentionally by a remorseless police officer for doing something nobody else saw him do. The officer has he deserved it and he doesnt feel bad for what happened. The PD refused to cooperate with the local prosecutor and attempted to delay investigations. Then they tried to hide the info from the public. They even are resisting the DOJs inquiries on the matter.

Sounds pretty bad to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjXIy65xz0c

Perhaps a video of a similar circumstance DURING a traffic stop type situation will work better for you? fortunately this man wasn't shot for trying to slowly remove an ear piece to better hear the officer.

>>34687226
DAMAGE CONTROL
A
M
A
G
E

C
O
N
T
R
O
L

>>34687307

Just a realist, I guess.

>>34685155

The 1911 was a military weapon. You know how the AR-15 is a scary baby murdering assault weapon in the public's eyes? The 1911 would have been seen like that.

The revolver was seen as a less threatening weapon for police. Even when they rolled out .357 Magnum revolvers for police THOSE were seen as overly aggressive and scary to joe public.

>>34685526
I though it was the North Hollywood shootout that made police departments rethink their caliber choices?

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>>34687346
me too

>>34685155
Because people back then were too stupid to know any better.

Took a bunch of dead cops before someone was like "wow" revolvers are shitty" then we never looked back.

The exception being incompetent revolver fags who probably cant even use a speed loader correctly yet alone shoot straight with shitty DA/SA triggers that could make a glocks trigger feel like a Wilson combats in comparison.

Of course these are the same people that bullshit about being deadeyes compared to "trigger happy" glock fags.

>>34687383

>LAPD


>>34687344

Sure thing, kiddo.

>>34687382

Nah, most were carrying semi-auto 9mm's by then. That's when they realized they needed 5.56 rifles too.

>>34687427
Don't be such a faggot. Here's hoping you're killed soon for driving the wrong style vehicle.

>>34687455

>implying

See, theft is common. Everybody either has or knows somebody that has fallen victim or prevented it. Same with rape and vandalism. Notice how few people you know that have been brutalized by police. Really gets the noggin noggin.

>>34687490
>it doesn't happen a lot so it's ok

how many nigs do I get to shoot before it stops being ok?

>>34687498

People shoot niggers all the time, and on the flipside, if it's unprovoked then it's murder which is illegal and widely worked against in the way of defense, punishment and prevention.

You *could* try again.

>>34687520
But I dont do it all the time. So it's ok by your copsucker logic.

>>34687543

That's some pretty odd logic you've applied. Also:

>copsucker

Just how old are you, son?

>>34687558
thanks. I learned it from >>34687490

>>34686002
45acp > 9mm

>>34687566

Of course ya did, bro. Because that's definitely the exact chain of logic I used. Don't you have a trailer to beat your wife in? Or some homework?

>>34687490
>Rape
Pfftt found the sjw

>>34687694

>EnigoMontoya.jpg

>>34685681
There's also plenty of video evidence that, if you tell a cop you are legally carrying, you'll immediately get a barrel in your face.

>>34685155
Big advantage of a revolver that no one considers compared to a weapon with a safety: getting a shot off in a struggle

>Basketball-American tackles you
>reach for your weapon

Revolvers are point and click. Taking a safety off just adds one more step to make ready. Up until Glocks became widely available DA/SA double-stacks were a rarity in the U.S.

>>34686184
It's the same thing that happened during Alcohol prohibition -- the prohibition produces higher prices for alcolol/drugs, which literally subsidises the most violent of criminal organisations, which leads to increased amounts of gunfights and murders and, well, gun control laws.

Alcohol Prohibition got you the NFA, War on Drugs got you GCA '68.

Us gun owners should oppose drug prohibition even if we have nothing to do with drugs, if only because prohibition (and the inevitable violent backlash) ALWAYS PRODUCES MORE GUN CONTROL.

>>34687760
Another good one is that they aren't as maintenance heavy in a lubing sense. Also the fact that they fire from a cylinder as opposed to a magazine means that if you pull the trigger and get a click instead of bang then clearing that malfunction is simply a matter of pulling the trigger again. Sure beats tap-rack-bang.

>>34687800
Ending drug prohibition will stop subsidising cops (if only because it'll kill their asset forfeiture $$$$) AND stop subsidising nigger/spic criminal activity (drugs are a $$$$ source for their gangs/cartels *only because* they're criminalised).

It's literally a win/win situation.

>>34687851
And that's why it'll never happen.

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>>34687251
>Do you just not use social media? Or watch TV?
Actually, no.
>>34687251
>The majority of people at the throats of the cops are leftists.
That's only because conservatives generally support cops even though doing so is against their own interests. If conservatives had any brains, they'd realize that the cops hate them. Whenever the police in America arrest someone for expressing political views, the person being arrested is almost always a conservative. Pic related.

>>34685245
>Because there was a time when Police didn't need MRAPs and full-auto M4's to handle American citizens.

Cops have had full autos since the 1920's. Huge numbers of surplus WWII / Korean War era small arms were handed out to departments for free. A large number of the transferable grease guns, Smith and Wesson M-76's, and M2 carbines in private hands actually come from these DoD freebies, because prior to '86 title 2 items held by police were papered the same way as privately held ones.

The Tennessee Department of Electricity auctioned off like thirty M16A1's that they'd had in storage back in 2011 or so.

>>34685298
>revolver
>less threatening
The only thing more intimidating than a revolver aimed at you is the sound of shotgun being pumped

>>34685581
>You used to have to forcibly pull the mag out where as today the almost fall out of every gun, even putting a mag in back then required a bit more effort
That's bullshit. I've seen old 1911s. The mags work just fine.
>>34686002
>.45 has no place in the modern day
We're not talking about modern day. This thread is about old guns.
>>34686129
>People did not want a heavily armed police force with "military" weapons
Citation needed.
>>34686302
>actually has the potential to accidentally discharge solely due to mechanical failure
Citation needed.
>>34686302
>sear gets tripped thanks to tolerance stacking, the gun will discharge
I have yet to see even one proved, documented instance of this happening. It seems more likely to me that someone had a negligent discharge and blamed it on their gun.
>>34687378
>The 1911 would have been seen like that
Citation needed.

>>34687972
t. black boomer

>>34687800
>>34687851
You realize that 90% of the responses you will get are going to be along the lines of "duuuuh, GTFO dumb druggie muh degenerates aint gots no place in MY country, an' muh day of the rope will kill all the niggers and the POLICE NEED GUNS TO KILL DEGENERATES"
Or something like that.

>>34687603
Yeah it is.

>>34685155
>Why did police carry revolvers instead of 1911s

Because revolvers are far more idiot resistant than automatics, and cheaper to train with and maintain.

Automatics are prone to shooter induced stoppages that revolvers aren't, such as:

- failure to feed caused by improper grip absorbing energy needed to properly cycle the slide
- failure to fire caused by improper grip failing to fully depress the grip safety
- failure to fire caused by a failure to properly disengage the safety
- failure to fire due to improperly seated magainze

I see an example of the above every year while shooting IDPA and USPA matches. I even watched a cop induce a stoppage on 3 separate stages because he was used to shooting a glock with a shitty grip that wouldn't work for the 1911 he was trying to run, resulting in failure to disengage the grip safety. None of the above are an issue for revolvers.

The fact that you don't have to train as many tasks to operate a revolver makes it cheaper for agencies to use them than auto's, and the fact that it's less complicated to operate makes it a good choice for the retard tier level of competence in most police agencies.

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>>34687958
>Militarized electricians

>>34688106

I'll take your word for it.

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>>34688192
it's a tough job...tough electrons

>>34685245
You can thank Ted Kennedy for that!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965

>>34688000
Something you have failed to consider is that the people who are political advocates for the legalization of drugs are also the same ones who unfailingly vote for gun control, open borders, and the welfare state. As such, a vote for the legalization of drugs is, in real terms, a vote for the Brady campaign and Democratic party.

>>34685707
And on the other hand, 19 lawmen were shot to death along Six Mile Creek in Mingo County, WV in less than a century.

>>34688236
t. Boomer

Now if the candidates were the same, you'd have a point. On a referendum, you're stealing single-issue weed voters away from Democrats; which, being politically beneficial, may not be something Republicans can understand.

>>34688192
Going out into the hollows of Kentucky to fix a transformer that the locals keep shooting apart and stripping the copper out of sounds plenty dangerous to me, I've been in similar situations. Of course it could predate the Appalachian drug genocide and actually be for Civil Defense/ commie killin that these were issued.

>>34688236
>some how voting yes in a referendum is voting for a political party

>>34685155
Because everyone used revolvers. Cops used revolvers. Criminals used revolvers. Citizens defending themselves used revolvers. Just imagine a time where "Glock" was "Smith and Wesson".

Alternatively they all also used shotguns. Rifles weren't really effective as weapons until the dawn of commonly available semiautomatics like the Armalite rifles. Most rifles you would buy were "hunting rifles" aka bolt action.

>>34686782
That's what they taught the FBI. "Reactive shooting".

I love watching this video. It really brings you back to a different era in policework.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waWoaw1yuEI&t=784s

>>34688384
>rifles weren't effective weapons until semiautomatics

Please think before you speak

>>34687983
>That's bullshit. I've seen old 1911s. The mags work just fine.
i didnt say they didnt work. I said they dont come out as well. Have you ever held any old pistol? Back in the day mags were fitted to the gun. They sit tight in the gun.


>>34687246
people put alot of faith in hollywood back in the day.

>>34688450

I have a 1924 1911 with the original two tone mags.
That's complete bullshit.
The idea of mags being fitted to a gun is insane, and they spring free just like in any 1911.

>>34687742
That just happen to wiggers, mexiniggers, and regular ol niggers.

>>34687423
You mention Glocks a lot, fanboy

>>34688448
Shut up kid

>>34688301
>>34688355
>muh national referendum

You realize that while state constitutions allow for referendums, the Constitution of the United States does not?

>>34685245
They didn't all this tacticool stuff back then, but they used submachine guns and other military hand-me-down automatic weapons.

>>34688532
>said rifles weren't effective weapons until they were semi auto
>accuses me of being a kid

You may not be a kid, but you aren't very smart.

>>34688536
You are the first one to mention a federal referendum.

>>34688236
While your statement isn't exactly correct, it's worth noting that you have just summarised precisely why America's two party system is such a problem, this 'us vs them' mentality means that there effectively cannot be any serious decisions about individual issues because each issue is irreversibly locked into one political party or the other. In other words, no matter who you vote for you a probably voting against at least some of your interests.

>>34685298
>>34685526
where does this "revolvers are more reliable" shit come from?

a semi-auto will tolerate far, far more abuse than a revolver.

you could throw a pistol into mud and it'd probably still shoot.

a revolver? lol

Danny Coulson, who was the first and founding commander of the FBI Hostage Rescue Team, writes some interesting stuff in his memoir about the FBI and revolvers vs semi autos. To cut a long story short, FBI personal weapon policy was dictated by the "range guys" at Quantico, who for a long time deemed semi autos to be unreliable and inaccurate.

During the 70s when the black liberation movement was being particularly violent, with ambush killings of cops in the street, the FBI NY field office was tasked with helping to hunt them down; FBI agents knew the preferred weapon for many of the violent members was a Hi Power, with several of them carrying spare mags. So agents were caught between chasing violent criminals armed better than they were but staying compliant, or breaking the rules. Some agents began carrying S&W 59s unofficially.

>>34688663
It means, autist-kun, that revolvers are more reliable with respect to the kinds of problems that a police duty weapon is likely to encounter in its real world uses. With a revolver, you do not have to worry about your gun failing to feed, failing to eject, stovepiping, double feeding, failing to fire because it isn't in battery, limpwristing, malfunctioning before you were forced to use it on a contact shot, hanging up because you didn't lube it frequently, having to keep track of round count because of the need to replace a recoil spring, bullet setback because you chambered the same round too many times, and other problems that are unique to semi-autos. Also

>Mud tests
>relevant to reliability for a police service weapon

Yeah, you just went full retard.

>>34688472
Does that make it right?

>>34688236
I advocate full legalisation of all drugs, ending of all drug crimes (beyond stuff like "dosing someone w/o consent", "driving impaired by drugs", or "selling drugs with content intentionally different than what's advertised"), ending of the controlled substances act and the Single Convention, but...i also love gun rights. If it were up to me, i'd end GCA68, NFA (and of course the FOPA ban on new machineguns).

>>34687178
Exactly. Compensating for having a job that requires confronting. If he were fat you would bitch about that. You want him to be 5'8" and 160lbs?

>>34688448
worse, it's "rifles weren't effective until Armalite semiautos", which is even more embarassing

>>34688719
> FBI agents knew the preferred weapon for many of the violent members was a Hi Power, with several of them carrying spare mags.

Damn, dindus had good taste in guns those days, nowadays it's all about the Hi Point, not the Hi Power.

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Bruh. I'm a Special Police Officer in Boston and I STILL have to carry a revolver.
Pic related. Day 1 vs day 1000+

>>34689004
Trade-off is that these were organized paramilitaries and not the gangs of teenagers we have today. Or maybe that's a positive, indicating Black society still was capable of organization.

>>34689022
I'd rather deal with organised Black paramilitaries than lowlife criminiggers.

>>34686405

Only if you're a culturally enriching individual who dindu nuffin

>>34689012
Looking at a pic like this is an interesting study in ergonomics, even if the changes are small
>cuffs moved to front
>all metal moved off spine
>nightstick is canted and higher up
I'd like to see pics like this in other major cities. How comfortable is carrying so many things on your waist? Would you prefer having shoulder+chest and thigh rigs?

>>34689012
Stupid question, what's the little red keychain fob in the second pic?

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>>34687383

It still blows me away that cops literally shot up two random trucks for no reason and just nothing happened

No outrage, no accountability, nothing

>>34685322
Praise the Lord, brother.

>>34687958
When the cops responded to the SLA shootout, they had two German MP40's.
So yeah, it was common. When they pulled Reising's from service in WW2, lots of them ended up in police use and for industrial security.

>>34689069
the only reason LAPD stopped shooting up random trucks (that didn't even match the description) was because Dorner intentionally *torched his own truck* -- so the police couldn't use that as an excuse.

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>>34685536

>>34689030
At least, most of the Black Panther type groups back then actually gave a damn about their communities.

>>34685593
>Of course, being /k/, I'm sure you'd feel 200% confident responding to a domestic call in the worst part of a big city with just your GP100.
You'd probably be better off than with a Glock. I carry a 1911 and I've repeatedly gotten "You've got a .45? I'm not going to mess with you." line from people who assume you're a fucking Delta Seal Swat Ranger because of it. Carrying a full-size revolver would probably get the same response except magnum instead of .45.

>>34689206
>repeatedly gotten
From whom? Do you open carry or something?

>>34685841
Sure, the BARs, but not the Thompsons.

>>34685284
80s and 90s COPS was GOAT tv

>>34689146
They didn't promote degeneracy and wanton crime on other races, they focused on community self-defence (and not preying on vulnerable Whites) and feeding/taking care of their own.

I hate niggers and avoid them as much as reasonably possible but i'd much rather be around organised paramilitary Blacks (who mind their own business and take care of their own) than today's roving bands of BART-robbing "youths". Polite armed Black man who wants to take care of and defend his community > degenerate bands of nigglets who rob trains and kick down doors to steal my laptop.

>>34689004
Yeah - bit formidable to go up against with a snub nosed .357

Rampant gang violence and shootout outs drove a wedge between cops and the communities they were supposed to police, making them paranoid as fuck which itself, couple with "Tacticool Operator Culture" lead them to become militarized as they are today.

>>34689206
Tangentially related:

I always thought it was funny when people tried to claim that 9mm and .357 mag perform the exact same on target. They'd try to suggest that it was just the bigger muzzle flash and boom that tended to make it a better manstopper.

Shit man, if that's what it takes! like i care if a guy has to stop or chooses to stop so long as he he's more likely to stop.

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>>34685524

Bootlickers out of /k/.

>>34689301
Yeop. The drug war has to go. Without the drug war, there's about as much profit shipping drugs as there is any other goods -- it being illegal means there's hella more money in moving drugs if you're willing to break the law. Drug prohibition = criminigger/spic gang subsidy.

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>>34685155
because for all the MUH MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX you hear getting associated with the police, the upper brass is for the most part dumb as bricks when it comes to these things. They go for whats best in terms of cheap, reliable and simple thats why glocks are everyones favorite police sidearm. Granted the style of policing and the dangers today have changed, and you did have some cops use automatics but it wasnt that drastic of a change to a service revolver. When it comes to big decisions like that, the bosses put way much overthought into things like political correctness, public opinion and their own lack of knowledge in the subject. Look at the fucking NYPD
>biggest police force in the country
>didnt abandon revelers until the 1990s
>used the compact glock 19 as the standard issue
>awful 12lb trigger
ive heard stories of cops not even being allowed speed loaders because they were too threatening

>>34689326
While I do not wish to live in a society where people are free to drug themselves, I do agree, the war on drugs was failure from the get go. Too many "small fish" getting incarcerated in the same place as the "big fish" have turned penitentiaries into "universities of crime". Some drugs should be decriminalized and regulated, while the possession of others should simply result in nothing more than a fine and confiscation, that's it.

>>34688663
>being this new
anon its simply because less can go wrong with a revolver

>>34689326
One thing though. The war on drugs has to go, but the violent drug lords reigning over the cartels through savagery, violence and terror, these dudes need to be hunted down and killed. No due process for them, they should be treated as enemies in a war.

>>34689301
>2k17
>actually believing this
Personally i think most of the blame lies with FOP, the blueline mentality, and a culture of officer safety.

Things cops have hammered into their head from day one:

1. Survive no matter what.

2. Officer safety is #1. Good guy civilians safety is #2.

3.You can't trust any civilians. You can always trust your brother officers and union to have your back though.

No wonder you have all these cases of cops over reacting to perceived threats and under reacting to real threats if the response could put them in danger(active shooters).

>>34685626
The line from 99 Problems is
>Doin 55 in a 50 zone

It hurts me you don't know this

Hova

>>34689353
>While I do not wish to live in a society where people are free to drug themselves
Are you part of the Women's Christian Temperance League?

>>34689415
Not the way the Philly Js sang it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4LsXh9ey84

>>34689407
Yeah well, you got a point there.

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>>34689057
CPR face shield it looks like. I've got a similar one myself.

>>34687983
OK, so what's the real answer?

>>34688663
Have you ever owned a government contracted 1911? They're pieces of shit compared to a revolver when it comes to reliability.

The real reason so many PD's switched to Glocks was not because of a safe trigger or anything like that, but because Glock ran an extremely aggressive trade-in policy back in the early 90's to gain marketshare. In many cases offering straight trades and extra incentives to switch to Glock. The idea is that they'd be Glock customers long-term, and it worked out very well for them.

S&W is now doing the same thing as some PD's are switching over to M&P's thanks to S&W's trade-in policy, which is why you've seen more trade-in Glocks in the past few years. At the end of the day, it's about money and it was also about money when cops were carrying revolvers. Look at an old catalog and compare the price of a 1911 to a S&W Model 10.

>>34687126
There is a name for this psychological phenomenon I just can't remember it.

People always remember general time periods as being better, more innocent, and happier than their current situation unless there is some serious traumatic memory from that time that overrides the phenomenon.

It can also come down to weight. Colt Police Positive (still a fine gun) weighs less than a 1911 and spare mags.
To a cop that walked a beat, a mid- sized revolver that he might never use was less hassle than a full- sized auto that he might never use.
And as mechanized transport became the norm, revolvers got bigger and heavier. Compare a GP-100 to the fore mentioned Colt.

>>34687106
>yfw more whites do drugs overall and at a higher rate per capita than blacks.

>>34689590
I know, right? and violent crime too. wait, no, BAME commit the vast majority of violent crime

>>34689608
No one said anything about violent crime you illiterate retard. Someone made a stupid statement about blacks and drugs which is directly contrary to the facts. I corrected them.

>>34689525
80% this

20% the same reason the military has soldier carry their M9 on an empty chamber with the safety on outside of combat ops.

The men in charge are just smart enough to know how stupid their subordinates are, and giving up a little effectiveness to avoid a few NDs is worth it to them considering the average cog won't even need that sidearm during their career.

The only thing worse than impropriety is the appearance thereof

>>34689577
My mother, who grew up, in the 50's, was once asked by someone if she enjoyed, growing up in that "age of innocence."
Her reply : "I had Polio."
Conversation ended very quickly.

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Can't police choose their own firearms

>>34689590
Maybe, maybe not. Some demographics may simply be more likely to lie about drug usage to surveyers or not answer surveys at all.

>>34688384
>Rifles weren't really effective as weapons until the dawn of commonly available semiautomatics like the Armalite rifles.
Wrong. Police always had rifles. Before they had semi auto, they had bolts. Before then, they had lever actions. You'd be surprised how effective a Winchester 94 can be.

>>34689577
>There is a name for this psychological phenomenon I just can't remember it.
"Delusion". "Having rose-tinted glasses". "Nostalgia".

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>>34685555
I chuckled

>>34689053
>How comfortable is carrying so many things on your waist?
It's not, but fortunately most of the time you'll be in a car sitting down.

>>34689688
Issue rifle of the Border Patrol in the 20's and 30's was the M1917 Enfield but, according to some of the Charles Askins writings,most preferred something like the Winchester 94 or 95.
This would have put you on parity with almost any other rifle of the day in a practical sense.

>>34689789
Why do people think the 30-30 is not a viable weapon? It'll kill a man deader than any handgun ever will.

>>34685338
>who can roll out to the latest domestic disturbance in their MRAP covered in black body armor with machine guns.
Nice meme friend

>>34685636
>colt armalite ar15
>colt
>armalite

Jeez back in the day dems couldnt even it right.

>>34689222
People I've run into on duty, especially in court.

Court also accounts for probably all of the, "Those Kimbers sure are nice, what type of .45 do you have? Never heard of Les Baer before, you should get one of those Kimbers, they sure are great guns." conversations.

>>34689856
Well, it was designed by Armalite, and Colt bought out the patents. Colt has a long history of getting lucky in associating their name with iconic guns: peacemaker, 1911, AR-15, Python. It's probably the only thing keeping them alive now.

>>34686405
"I have a gun"
"Ok don't reach for it"
"But I have to"
*Reaches for gun*
"Stop reaching for it"
*Continues reaching for gun*
*Blam*

>>34689809
Beats me. Especially since I keep hearing about all those 600 yard deer kills with them.:/
Also 600 yards, ever notice?

>>34689887
Oh that explains it. But they're probably just trying to start a conversation and not really any more intimidated than they would be by a 9mm glock.

>>34685593
>what is bonnie and Clyde
You're right, criminals didn't used to have assault rifles. Most of them preferred battle rifles back in the day so the body armor of the day was irrelevant any ways.

Protip: handguns have historically and will continue to be the most overwhelming threat police face.

Some criminals will use heavier stuff but that's rare and not new

>>34689918
Somebody else on /k/ once said that the gun community is like a sorority, but instead of size queens we have ballistics queens. Ballistics queens have no concept of human scale. All they know is that bigger and faster are always better. A 30 30 will do immense damage to a person at any range he's likely to be shot.

>>34685155
Cops used to be able to shoot accurately.

>>34685338
They'd just call in the army or the national guard back then. During the Detroit riots they even had airborne dudes with tanks and APCs running around firing .50 BMG at snipers.

>>34689904
Let me guess, next you're going to claim that he neither had a CCW and that his gun was loose and on the floor after he died?

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>>34689407
Part of the problem with police training is that an unfortunate amount of trainers are ex-COs from shithole prisons. And since people teach what they know, they teach a world where you cavity search with welding gloves on because the guys you're searching are the sort to stick shit/hepatitis covered hypodermics up their ass just because you're going to search them.

>>34689430
Maybe he's Chinese and remembers what happens when the poppy flows.

>>34685155
Because America.

>>34688663
Because once upon a time--say, 1910--it was true. The first semiauto that had reliability anywhere near that of contemporary DA service revolvers was the 1911. It didn't tolerate being clogged with mud very well, but neither did anything else.

Semiautos are highly tolerant of abuse, but abuse destroys revolvers. If it doesn't go into battery slam your hand into the back of the slide until it does, and it'll work, and probably be okay afterwards. Try to slam a revolver cylinder shut like James Cagney in a 1930s gangster movie and you're lucky if you don't bend or crack the crane, or worse. The same goes if you are in a back alley with a revolver you haven't had time to reload yet and the hobo you're chasing pulls a knife out of his boot and you have to crack his skull with what you've got in your hand right now. Using a revolver as an impact weapon can damage it. Semiautos, especially nice big heavy steel-framed ones like 1911s, shrug that right off.

Revolvers are highly tolerant of neglect--like not cleaning or lubricating them properly, which until relatively recently was a pretty good way to stop semiauto pistols cold. Carbon fouling builds up, oil seeps out, grease liquefies from heat in sustained firing (especially the stuff that existed prior to the invention of modern synthetic greases for the automotive industry in the 1920s) and goes away, stuff stops moving.

And remember: cops, especially in the 1930s, didn't fight in trenches, they didn't use revolver barrels as prybars to lift manhole covers, but they sure as shit didn't clean their guns very often either.

Even today NYPD armorers are constantly replacing Glock 19s that "don't work" at annual quals because they've got a decade's worth of pocket lint accumulated inside the frame that formed a greasy wad of literal felt that blocked the travel of the trigger. The guns run perfectly fine after a field strip and detail clean, but Officer Snuffy has never liked to clean his tools.

>>34689206
>>34689310

I'm actually the guy you replied to and I'm now buying a revolver because of you. So you're an asshole. GP100, here I come.

>>34689997
Cops have had auto weapons ever since they became available. Difference was back then(and it wasn't that long ago) they didn't talk about it as much. So nobody mentioned the Reisings or Thompson that they confiscated from a nutty vet and kept in case they needed it.

>>34687208
>republicans controlling a majority of senate, house and presidency
>liberals are still the political establishment somehow

>>34690008
Nope, he had a CCW. He was also high. So when he said *no I have to* I'm pretty confident that he was reaching for his wallet or other documentation, and in his inebriated state didn't process or recognize that he just told the cop has a gun, and was told not to reach for it. Meanwhile the cop has just been told this dude has a gun, and now the dude is reaching for it. Watch the video and listen to the cop's tone, when he's initially told it's very much a relaxed "ok thanks don't reach for it". But that doesn't fit the CopBlock narrative of OMG MURDEROUS COPS I guess.

Tragic misunderstanding, but shows why you shouldn't smoke pot/drink/use other mind altering substances while carrying.

>>34690107
>revolver
Good decision, i've been trying to fight the urge lately myself. I can feel the sweet siren call of .357 mag calling to me...

>gp100
not a bad choice, more of a security six fan myself, something about full underlugs is just to bulldoggish for my tastes.

That and i entertain the idea of CCWing a 4" so the on paper weight loss looks rather appealing.

>>34685245
Yes, goy, all just (((COHENcidences))).

>>34689661

Some.

>>34689966

Literally accounted for that in that comment and another.

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>>34690107
Not the other guy, but people who claim the .357 isn't more effective than 9mm need, in my opinion, to think some more.

Now, there IS a lot of watered-down, 9mm-equivalent .357 Mag ammo out there:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VSpAVR8UWY

And it isn’t at all bad, though I am of the opinion that if I’m limited to six shots before I have to reload, I want something that will destroy more tissue and penetrate barriers better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNmP-bkRi5w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJk_YHO6hDk

Various “experts” tell us there is “no real difference” between .38 Special, 9mm, and .357 Magnum, based on ballistic gelatin tests.

I wonder how many of them would hunt whitetail deer or black bear with a five-shot .38 Special snubby. Blocks of ballistic gelatin are all well and good, but ballistic gelatin tests are a best-possible-case scenario. Gelatin may be made from bones but it doesn’t have bones. It takes kinetic energy to smash heavy bone—which the .357 has in spades over 9mm and .38 Special. And if you wouldn’t hunt man-sized game with a .38 Special if you had a .357 available to you, why would you choose the .38 to fight for your life?

Note attached image. The FBI tells us that in self-defense shootings, either by law enforcement or armed citizens, a bullet otherwise properly aimed at center of mass hits an arm before entering the torso 40% of the time. The attached image shows why. If I’m fighting for my life, and my front sight is on the bad guy’s center of mass, I want to send a bullet that will smash those bones and keep on trucking without deviating.

And no, I’m not neglecting the fact that modern 9mm service handguns like the Glock 17 and Smith M&P hold seventeen in the box and one in the pipe, for three times the ammo most revolvers carry, without a reload. But it’s also true that almost all defensive shootings are over, one way or the other, with less than three rounds fired.

>>34690130
Being the establishment doesn't mean being the most numerous party. It means being the most powerful party. Most of those Republicans are big time cuckservatives. When Republicans are in power, Democrats get their way half the time. When Democrats are in power, Democrats get their way 100% of the time. For example, Obama used his Justice Department to punish his enemies and reward his friends. Now that Trump is in power, is he going give them a taste of their own medicine? Of course not. He hasn't prosecuted Hillary, probably because he wanted to not look vindictive, and the Democrats are going to use that against him by saying, "See, Hillary was innocent after all." Jeff Sessions cucked out hard by letting the the Democrats set up an investigative committee for their idiotic and irrelevant Russian conspiracy theory, and then he cucked out even harder by recusing himself from it, which the Dems use to give even more credibility to their baseless accusations.

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>>34689053

>>cuffs moved to front
I just switched out the case for a strap. I put the new case behind my gun because it's small enough not to interfere with my draw.

>>all metal moved off spine
I guess?

>>nightstick is canted and higher up
I got a Safariland one because the Monadnock one flops around like a flacid dick.

>>How comfortable is carrying so many things on your waist?
It's not that bad. It feels lighter when you're wearing it.

>>Would you prefer having shoulder+chest and thigh rigs?
Thigh rig is doubtful but I wouldn't mind one of those load bearing armor vests.


>>34685155
>>>34689057
>CPR face shield it looks like. I've got a similar one myself.
Correct.


>>34689773
>It's not, but fortunately most of the time you'll be in a car sitting down.
Don't be a bitch.

>>34689392
yes, the ones at the top need to go, but we need to completely end drug prohibition first. Otherwise it’s just more whack-a-mole, like has been going on for a decade or three. Remove the financial incentive to be a lawbreaking gang (aka remove prohibition) and mop up the worst killers and the cartel leaders. I don’t disagree that those people are ruthlessly violent thugs that need to be eliminated—indeed the reason i want the drug war to go is because it *subsidises and enables that very sort of ultraviolent criminal*.

>>34690315
I congratulate you on not being a basic ass 9mmfag or facklerite.

There are a lot of misconceptions floating around about BG tests.

1. clear gel or other BG derivatives HAVE NOT been proven to be adequate mediums.

2. even properly calibrated 250A ordinance gelatin HAS ONLY been shown by studies to be a reasonable predictor of bullet performance for rounds that DO NOT strike bone(per Wolberg). Even then these results are more similar to results from denim tests than plain gel tests.

3. While fackler and GKR believe that velocity only meaningfully contributes to effectiveness when >2000FPS some people in the know think that there are some notable increases in effectiveness lower than that. particularly around 1600fps.

IMHO .357 mag isn't too much round for too little gain. Recoil is manageable although follow up shots will of course not be as quick as a 9mm. Frankly I think it's hard to put a price on a round that'll crack ulna, radius, sternum, pass through the major thoracic vessels, and crack the spine.

I'm just more concerned with ending a threat as quickly and reliably as possible than i am having 13 extra rounds in my mag once i've ended it. Getting shot at sounds like a lame time.

>>34690456
>ordinance
It's ordnance.

>>34688135
I literally have no idea how people have issues with the grip safety. Any sort of decent handgun grip will do. I firmly believe that if your grip on the gun is so poor that it's not disengaging that safety, you are much better off not firing the round, as it would fly out of your hands, and the bullet would go god knows where.

>>34690488
my finger... slipt?

>>34689353
moderate controlled drug use is easier to do when it’s not prohibited (look up “iron law of prohibition”) — when prohibition is in effect, the most common forms of the drug are the most potent and dosages are uncertain so you end up with lots of degenerate, disruptive, and dangerous drug use. Again, look at spirits vs beer consumption in Alcohol prohibition. Also in the 19th century, moderate opium use was totally a thing (stuff like laudanum and shit) but it wasnt murderous like today’s fentanyl abominations.

I’m no druggie but i have used prescribed opioid pain medications (after surgeries) — and it’s just hard to buy the anti-drug crap after actually using those drugs and seeing that they’re not deadly agents of poison and degeneracy.

>>34690417
Agreed. Punch someone in the head and they might shrug it off. Kick them in the wallet and you can cripple them.
Plus, if cartels do fall back on extortion, kidnapping, etc, there would be far more public sympathy and support to end them then fighting a drug war.

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>>34688135
I always found DA revolvers to be a serious test of my skill just because manipulating the DA trigger is requires more concentration for me.

When I'm holding a two pound revolver and hauling a twelve pound trigger back over an inch of travel, I really have to concentrate on my grip and my follow-through. If I squeeze harder with my fingers as I pull the trigger, it's going to throw the shot way off and I'm going to see that on the target. If I press in or press down with my thumb as I'm pulling the trigger, I'm gonna see that on the target too. If my follow-through is incorrect, I'm going to see that too.

None of these things is nearly so much of an issue when I'm shooting my Ruger Mk. III with the Volquartsen hammer and sear and the crisp two and a half pound trigger that's got most of the takeup and reset dialed out of it. For that matter a stock Glock trigger isn't long enough or heavy enough for these things to matter. But if I pick up a GP100 or a K-frame Smith, I've got to think about a lot more than "front sight, press."

It's doable with DA revolvers but it takes practice, especially if you're holding yourself to higher standards than "keep at least half on the blue part of the B27 at ten feet." With .22 target pistols I hold the X-ring at ten yards, and do almost that well with most service pistols. With a revolver I have to slow down or stage the shot (fortunately the GP100's trigger lends itself admirably to staging the DA pull) and it shows on target and in my times.

>>34690630
without the profit motive from moving prohibited drugs, these cartels are mostly nothing. The kidnapping and extortion stuff is only possible (and sensical to them) because of the drug trade. Remember all the awful mafia kidnapping/murder-4-hire shit of the 1920s? Another product of prohibition! Without the drug-basef source of profit, some cartel fucko can try kidnapping but like, once they get caught it’s over —nobody will take their place because kidnapping isn’t a reliably profitable activity of the kind that making/moving drugs *is*.

>>34686280
state-sponsored thugs

>>34690540
Anon, always blame it on auto-correct.

>>34690621
>and it’s just hard to buy the anti-drug crap after actually using those drugs and seeing that they’re not deadly agents of poison and degeneracy.
You do realize that most of the heroin epidemic we're currently experiencing has its source at over-prescription of opioid painkillers, right? And that an utterly indefensible amount of the relapses come from doctors prescribing recovering addicts with opioids?

>>34688807
>With a revolver, you do not have to worry about your gun failing to feed, failing to eject, stovepiping, double feeding, failing to fire because it isn't in battery, limpwristing, malfunctioning before you were forced to use it on a contact shot, hanging up because you didn't lube it frequently, having to keep track of round count because of the need to replace a recoil spring, bullet setback because you chambered the same round too many times

Damn, semi-autos have all those problems??

>>34690968
DA revolvers can still lock up if you don't lube them. Also why would you have to keep track of round count?

>>34691161
This is meant for
>>34688807

>>34690968
There was a time when that was the norm with semiautos.

The 1911 was the first semiauto that wasn't laughably dirt-sensitive or otherwise prone to not working, and modern polymer-framed, striker-fired semiautos seem to be more inherently reliable than the 1911.

But yeah, feedway stoppages, failures to eject, failures to extract, slides that would halt 1/4" out of battery because there wasn't enough lube on the slide rails, guns that flat wouldn't cycle at all unless you held it just so--yeah. Magazines can and do go bad. The feed lips bend and wear, the springs wear. Recoil springs wear too--today we can say "a pistol recoil spring should last tens of thousands of rounds" but go back a century, or longer, and think about the spring steel and heat treatment available today vs. in 1910.

Now consider how miraculous it was that in the 1910 Army trials the original toolroom prototype 1911s chewed through tens of thousands of rounds with zero parts breakage and almost no problems, other than dud primers or the crumpled cases of deliberately damaged ammo that wouldn't chamber, even dirty, unlubed, and shot until they got too hot to hold, then dunked in a barrel of water and shot some more.

Compared to just about everything that came before it, the 1911 was miraculous. Other designs available at the time broke parts constantly, wore out springs constantly, choked on the tiniest bit of dirt and wouldn't run worth a shit if they weren't white-glove clean and dripping with oil. Lugers, Broomhandle Mausers, Bergmann-Bayards, all choked on dirt and broke parts constantly. Before the 1911 the serious pistolero carried a revolver and liked it.

This is not to say it's impossible to fuck up a 1911--lots of guns and parts were made by the low bidder in World War II and were, frankly, shit, but there was a war on and it wasn't considered nearly as much of a problem as, say, a shortage of aircraft parts would have been.

>>34690315
You're citing the same FBI that published a study stating 9mm is the caliber of choice. And in that study they talk about how in dead bodies --not gelatin, but people law enforcement have shot the fuck up-- examiners are incapable of telling the difference between wound tracks on anything from .35 to .45

Heck the studies showing defensive shootings as having less than three rounds fired... how many of those do you suppose are 9mm? People aren't bears. They very quickly succumb to 9mm gunshot wounds to center mass.

How does the speed and accuracy compare when quickly drawing and putting in those 2 rounds from your average 9mm vs. a huge ass .357 mag? How many bone deflections are really, genuinely interfering with the caliber's effectiveness?

I am not trying to be all 9mm master race on you. I think larger calibers are perfectly respectable defensive weapon choices. The 9mm is simply a more agile and versatile platform.

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>>34690315
Handgun calibers are all equally marginal at killing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXwPtP-KDNk

What ultimately matters is shot placement and ammo selection. Whatever you shoot best, whether it's 9x18, 9mm Luger, .45 ACP or .38 Special, that's what you should be using.

>>34691228
What do they say about 9x18 military loads?
>(actually buffalo bore +p+, but don't want to get into the dumb semantics)

>>34691161
>DA revolvers can still lock up if you don't lube them.

This is not the case on any DA revolver I have owned. With what gun did you experience this? As someone who owns + regularly uses vintage Rugers and a lockless S&W J-frame, I have had the exact opposite experience--all of my guns run better when kept fairly dry. When I first got into revolvers, I made the mistake of lubing them to an extent similar to how you would an automatic. This was a mistake, as it caused the carbon + powder from firing to stick under the extractor and made the cylinder rotate less smoothly once I got late into a range session. Since then, I run them with very light oil applied sparingly in key areas, and they are much better off for it.

>Also why would you have to keep track of round count?

Your typical recoil spring on an automatic is supposed to be replaced at 3k to 5k rounds. A decent gun can continue to run for a while on a worn-out recoil spring, but it will cause malfunctions or parts damage in the long run if you're negligent about changing them.

>>34690968
Revolvers have some problems that are unique to them. Older revolvers might have loose ejector rod caps that can unscrew themselves during firing and bind the cylinder. Lightweight revolvers made of space-age materials (think things like a Smith and Wesson 329 or 360) firing powerful cartridges can have bullets jump crimp and bind the cylinder. Revolvers that have been abused or that have weaker actions can have timing issues. Even so, these problems are lesser in severity and scope than those found on your typical automatic because every single one of them is entirely preventable with some foresight.

Ejector rod cap unscrewing? Either loctite it or replace it. Are your bullets jumping crimp on your snowflake 25 oz. .44 Magnum? Either read the manual where it tells you to not use certain loads or change it out for a more conventional steel gun that does not experience those problems. Your revolver has timing issues? Buy an oversized hand and cylinder stop and have a gunsmith install them for you.

Note that I have not personally experienced any of these problems, because I knew about them and inspected my guns carefully to ensure that these problems were not present. They are not overly common problems, but they are still worth mentioning.

>>34689012
I'm looking for the cup holder

But no, seriously, what do you put in those little pockets

>>34689069
And I'm just sitting here thinking how bad it is they didn't even manage to kill any of them. Fucking, 60 odd rounds into a car with someone you suspect is going to kill you inside it, and no one dies?
How embarrassing that must be

>>34691208
>The feed lips bend and wear
This was actually enough of a problem for Fairbairn and Sykes in Shanghai that they actually made specialized jigs to rebend the feed lips on magazines.

>>34691301
The ones on the left? They're for speedloaders.

>>34689661
Like was said, some can, but even then it usually has to be chosen off of a list of approved weapons. The list is usually pretty short. You'll usually see Glock 17/19, Beretta 92/PX4, a 1911 variant, and usually a S&W autoloader

>>34691228
9mm is the caliber of choice for 86-pound women who never saw a gun except on TV before they joined the FBI, because Affirmative Action and GRRRL POWAH, yes.

I'm old enough to have seen the FBI's "official truth" on handguns and ammunition bend with the wind from year to year. I remember the Relative Incapacitation Index, a 1970s computer model that put great emphasis on temporary stretch cavities, and .41 Magnum being declared the Very Best Possible Thing for All Purposes. Then they issued .357 Magnum, but the issue guns were snubbies that cut its ballistics down to 9mm levels. So some field agents started carrying 9mm semiautos, back when DA/SA and doublestack mags were the Next Big Thing. The Bureau approved them and issued the old Winchester 115gr Silvertip JHP, which did well in the RII and seemed to work okay on the street until a certain incident in Miami in April of '86, which got us the 10mm, no, wait, the .40, no, wait, it's 9mm again--each change accompanied by "scientific" studies. The new thing they'd chosen is always decisively scientifically proven to be the Best Thing Ever for Everyone and Everything, and everything else was obsolete--and next year it might be big-bore revolver rounds if someone making purchasing decisions owns enough Ruger or S&W stock.

I take everything in these FBI studies with a grain of salt. The 40% figure for torso shots going through an arm first seems very plausible to me--but it doesn't seem like a strong argument for less powerful calibers for general issue.

I will admit here that I'm not a hunter--but I know people who hunt, and those who have used the hotter, higher-velocity pistol rounds generally seem to report they notice a great difference, whether we're talking about whitetail deer or rabid feral dogs.

Would you hunt whitetail deer with a 9mm? If yes, then that's fine. If not, why not? People have done it but it's not a generally accepted practice. Do you think there's a reason for that?

>>34685292

Obviously nigger. Unfortunately every one of us intelligent white people who notice the end game of the elites police state agenda, has to be labeler a BLM supporter or sympathizer or criminal because of you apes.

Partly our fault too for not using critical thinking skills.

Disliking Police (at least what they've become) =/= Being a stupid low I.Q. chimp.

Thanks to your kind though, the kikes who own the media can point their fingers at violent animalistic retards like you and say "either you support everything cops do or support everything these niggers do" and people fall for it every time.

Pretty much the same version of.

Will you vote for the Republicans we control or the Democrats we control?

>>34691228
>examiners are incapable of telling the difference between wound tracks on anything from .35 to .45

Source? not him but the only such research im aware of involved comparing 9mm and .45 ball ammo wound tracts in BG with medical professionals of undefined background.

>>34689648
shiiieeeeeeetttttttttt

>>34691238
That videos doesn't prove that at all. Never do they get into the specifics of which round cracks bone and penetrates deeply more reliably. Hell, many of his comments regarding terminal ballistics are taken(and sourced) from the same handful of studies/sources that are repeated ad nauseaum on this board and many others.

If you could point to a part where the doc specifies that .357mag and 9x18 are equivalent tools for killing with a well sourced and reasoned argument to back it up then im all ears.

>>34691238
I'll ask you the same question.

Would you hunt whitetail deer with a .38 Special loaded with wadcutters, which are so highly recommended by certain individuals whose opinions are held in high regard? Would you use a 9mm, loaded with whichever hollowpoint round you prefer? How about hunting black bear?

If not, why not?

Too many people who hunt have told me that yes, indeed, they see a difference with 10mm, or a hot .357 load, compared to 9mm or .38 or .45. Of course, deer don't shoot back, but neither do blocks of gelatin.

>>34691434
Effectiveness at hunting animals is different from self-defense against humans.

If I was hunting or had to deal with bears, yes, I would absolutely want 10mm or .357 Magnum (or .44 Magnum) if I only had a handgun on me.

But against humans, there's no appreciable difference between calibers. A 124gr +P 9mm Luger would serve you just as well as a 125gr .357 Magnum against Tyrone, but with a whole lot less noise, muzzle flash, and recoil.

>>34687382
No, they realized you don't bring handguns and the odd shotgun to a rifle shootout.

>>34689012
as an LEO in another country, why do you guys not use hinged handcuffs? they let you do cool techniques like 'push-pull'.

>>34691584
idk why not, they'd work well on all the resistive/assaultive/combative Dindus we have so many of in the 'kwa.

>>34691595
in my country we don't have nearly as much public order issues as I suspect you have. Often offender's pass in and out of custody without being arrested or restrained.
As a result we don't use or really re-train such safe handcuffing techniques like American police seem to.
They either seem to voluntarily enter custody and then after a conversation they are restrained. Or there is a big brawl and it's stacks on where in the end they're handcuffed.
Is there any succinct tutorials online you would recommend so I can handcuff like Americans. .
I'm interested but I admit it's never seemed REALLY necessary in 5 years to tactically restrain someone.

>>34685555
oh my fuck

>>34691584
They do, most departments just have an overstock of chain to issue out. A lot of guys at my dept have 2-3 sets of hinge cuffs, and multiple sets of flex cuffs if we need em. They're a thing, and used, just usually on your own dime

>>34691660
ah ok we just get issued the hinged handcuffs.
Also X26 taser which I've noticed most american's don't seem to use. But I have alot of misgivings about the taser. They don't seem reliable or dependable to me. I can't see that you would use them often in america where everyone is likely armed.
Can I ask how much you usually earn in state police?
Here I make about 71878.05 US Dollar's with 5 years on the road experience.

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>>34686762

>actual answer incoming

>>34691569
This. If you could stick a .308 down your trousers, everyone would do that.

Until then, pick a fucking pistol calibre and get good with it.

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>>34686123

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>>34685555

>>34691671
Though to be honest, both police force and criminals had access to automatic firearms (Remington 8s and Thompsons for the good ol' prohibition era) for a long time, and the later, at least, always had a tendency to be better armed if the situation allows it, so naturally cops tend to have better, not just equivalent, fire power and protection. Are people really expecting criminal and police trade to remain stagnant for near a century?

>>34685155
It's literally only 2 extra rounds and the niggers still knew their place back then.

>>34687972
Back then pistols were mainly military weapons.

>>34685155
One factor is that there actually was a problem with criminals wearing early, primitive soft armor, and .357 was usually sufficient to deal with it while .45ACP wasn't.

If your choice is 15 rounds of 9mm or 6 rounds of .357, the 9mm is an obvious choice for most people, unless you're going to do Jerry Miculek levels of training. But if your choice is 8 rounds of .45acp or 6 rounds of .357, it's a much closer contest, and I'd personally choose the wheelgat.

>>34689012
Hey, good on you for being a part of the BPD. You guys are always great to see around the BMC/on Melenea Cass Blvd.

Do you guys know that the Cumberland farms next to the BMC (right across Melenea Cass) is just stuffed to the brim with drug-dealers, right? Actually, pretty much every Cumberland Farms is a drug-dealing hangout.

>>34691301

From left to right on bottom pic:
Speed loaders x2
Keys (cuff, office fob, vehicle fob, CPR mask)
Baton
Light
Radio holster
Nitrile gloves
Tourniquette (SP?)
Cuffs
Gun
OC
Cuffs

>>34691584
I mean, we can if we want. I choose chain cuffs because they're easier to get on a non compliant subject.

>>34691617
Oh honey, let me tell you. You punch and kick them until they stop punching and kicking you. There is no form. Wrist locks and arm bars are for shit.

>>34693036
I'm not a part of BPD. I qualify at the police Range at Moon Island and I took my entrance exam with them, but I'm a separate entity. My badge and ID say 'City of Boston, but I'm not employed by them, despite adhering to all their rules and regs.
Also, the Cumberland farms at Crosstown is closed now. Has been for about a year. And it wasn't so much drug dealers as homeless, because, yknow... South End.

>>34685292
Shitskin detected.

Police used .38 revolvers because they were worried about the overpenetration and potential collateral damage of .357 and .45.

>>34692685
>criminals wearing early, primitive soft armor
Can you elaborate?
Like miami drug lord in a flack jacket?

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>>34685536
>this will never be you

why even live?

>>34693910
>worried about the overpenetration and potential collateral damage of .357 and .45.
Should buy Makarov then.

>>34694011
>American police
>able to buy Soviet weapons during the Cold War

>>34688719
>FBI agents knew the preferred weapon for many of the violent members was a Hi Power,

source? I don't think HPs were that common amongst the Black Liberation Army. I think most of them used cheap .32 ACP pistols that were floating around pawn shops everywhere. I do know that they were known to carry 2 or 3 cheap automatics on them at any given time, so it would seem like they had 14-15 shots if they were going up against a rookie cop with a six shooter.

I heard that back in the day, ammunition was prone to failure to fire. In a semi-auto, such round had to be cleared from the weapon before firing resumed.

With a revolver, a police officer just had to pull the trigger again to fire off a good shot, and the dud was ejected alongside spent casings.

>>34691484
>Effectiveness at hunting animals is different from self-defense against humans.

[citation needed] Bears have bones too.

>>34687153
>>34687092

Another anon here I'm a criminal and went to jail,once if anything I got every reason to hate pigs.

Everytime I'm stopped or question by a pig or crackas (crack dwn on crime not because there white) as we call,them here in florida im always aggressive with them.

>>34694364
Faulty primers are still a thing and still happen now and then. It's less common than it was, say, a hundred years ago, but anyone mass-producing something occasionally lets a bad batch slip out. It happens.

If we want to talk specifically about 9mm, an awful lot of it has been manufactured over the past century with really heavy primer cup material, intended for use in open-bolt SMGs. Now and then it has gotten into handguns, with the occasional "click" instead of "bang" resulting.

>>34685155
Because revolver is more reliable.

>>34690456
I agree. .45 is in the same boat as .357 as per autopsy reports from the morgue. Real life results are far more introspective than ballistics gel

So what handgun cartridge size is useful for body armor someone might realistically use, then? 10mm? .357?

>>34685155
Because Officer Snuffy is usually not ex-military, and historically when departments thought Officer Snuffy could be trusted with a weapon that had a crisp four-pound trigger it resulted in lots of .45 caliber bullet holes in kneecaps and despairing cries of "Honest, Sarge! It just went off! I didn't do nuffin! This gun ain't safe! We should sue!" See also, "Glock Leg."

Police academies for the most part are not military or even paramilitary environments, though supposedly LAPA prior to 1980 got close. A significant number of the people joining up have always felt entitled to a comfy civil service desk job with a fat pension and a minimum of danger and unpleasantness.

Police academies do occasionally get the bright idea to hire former Marine DIs and have them "smoke" the recruits whenever they see them put their booger hooks on the bang buttons when they're not supposed to, or when a small arms inspection shows that his sidearm isn't white-glove clean and properly lubricated, but organizations that try that kind of remedy suffer mysterious problems with morale and student attrition, and police departments are always understaffed anyway. Fifty or a hundred years ago, the solution was DA revolvers, which are semi-tolerant of that kind of tomfoolery. Now it's Glocks with twelve-pound "New York+" spring kits.

I want to emphasize. This is an ancient and honored tradition in US law enforcement. Seventy years ago Officer Snuffy would hang out in front of movie theaters showing westerns and try to spin his revolver on his index finger, just like Randolph Scott and Gary Cooper, to impress the kiddies.

tl;dr Police academies in the US do not and never have trained to military levels of firearms safety or competency, because it would cost money and Police Cadet Snuffy doesn't like being yelled at.

>>34694642
Bad guys, fortunately, almost never wear body armor.

It's expensive. It's hot. It's miserable, especially in the summer. Did I mention that it costs money, and your typical street punk robbing liquor stores would rather spend that money on crack cocaine?

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, very very rarely, but as a general rule, if bad guys had the brains and the discipline to obtain and wear soft body armor, they would be taxpaying citizens and working a regular job, not robbing liquor stores.

Special kevlar-penetrating ammo has been around since about ten seconds after kevlar vests were invented. It doesn't even require a terribly powerful cartridge.

Machined monolithic solid brass bullets with a "hollow point" that has a sharp cutting edge around the perimeter make short work of woven kevlar panels and don't require terribly high energies to do it.

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/25-auto-with-hp-brass-bullet-p-p-s-msc/1513 <-- .25 ACP, supposedly capable of penetrating Level II body armor.

See also the French solid machined brass THV and "Arcane" rounds from the 1970s, which were good enough that knockoffs were manufactured in South Africa. They didn't have a cutting edge around the lip of a hollowpoint cavity but they came to points, sometimes sharp.

So soft body armor is a solved problem, and has been, for decades, from an engineering perspective. Now, a hard plate in a plate carrier is a whole other problem, one you're not going to solve with handgun ammunition except by shooting him somewhere the plate doesn't cover. Some hard plates are rated for multiple hits from 5.56mm M855 Ball with the steel penetrator, from a 20" barrel at short range.

>>34694789
The nice thing is, Level II is relatively easy to wear covertly and it might just save your squishy parts from potentially deadly handgun rounds.

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>>34694682
> Police academies in the US do not and never have trained to military levels of firearms safety or competency, because it would cost money and Police Cadet Snuffy doesn't like being yelled at.
This is true worldwide.
This picture is after everyone went through training. Most forces have minimal training and even less refresher time. I know of at least one municipal force banned from using a private range because of the damage to the target stands and ceilings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv-YU19s4S4

Can anyone identify the guns here?

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>>34688192
>there is normiebook meme for that

>>34694642
.38 Super.

t. 1930's G-Man

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>>34685304
>>34685322
Get some

>>34694908
First one we can see looks like it might be a SIG P226, but I'm not sure, the individual frames are a bit blurry. Second one looks like a Glock, with that square slide, but it's hard to tell which model.

These are just guesses. I might be wrong.

>>34694976
Yea it looks to me like a P226 but damn that thing seems to have like unlimited ammo cheat because he fired like 20 rounds before reloading. The 2nd is clearly a G22/17. The perp had a G19/23.

How many rounds does a Sig even hold?

>>34694908
>handcuff a guy who probably has 20+ holes in him and a quart of blood on the ground already
Why even bother

>>34695014
Guy actually lived and ended up going to prison.

>>34694254
I can't find an online source but years ago I read in a gun magazine that when the NYPD finally ran Twymon Meyers (BLA terrorist known to have murdered two Atlanta cops, among others) to ground and killed him in a gun battle in a parking garage in 1973, when he died he was found to have been trying nto reload a Nazi-marked Browning Hi-Power. Apparently a bullet had bounced off the pistol's frame and distorted the mag well enough that he couldn't get the mag quite in.

If it had taken the cops much longer, it seems likely that Mr. Meyers would have had the light bulb come on over his head and gotten the MP40 and six mags out of the suitcase found within arm's length of him when he died.

I don't know whether BHPs were "common" among the membership. The BLA seems to have been a rather tiny splinter group.

>>34694996
Factory spec for P226 mags in 9mm is 15 rounds but Mec-Gar makes 18 rounders that fit flush. They also make 20 round mags for the P226 in 9mm. They've got a little two-round hollow plastic extension on the bottom. They also make slightly-extended 20 rounders for the Beretta 92 and a 19 round mag with the same extension for the CZ75B.

>>34695039
Holy shit, really? When I saw them trying to tourniquet his leg I thought he was a goner. They hit a major blood vessel down there, it was like a faucet.

>>34695089
Yes it was in the video description. The cops shouldn't be cursing so much though.

>>34695089
Well, look at the bright side. His prison nickname is probably "Wheels" and he's gonna get SSI for the rest of his life when he gets out.

>>34687208
>Anti-police policies were a mainstream view in the 1870s and before
Rose by any other name m8
People have always supported having some form of lawman and law around

>>34695089
tccc works my dude

seen dudes live through tension pneumothorax after getting over 10 needle Ds dropped on them.

i didnt personally see it but i heard about a guy who was literally dead, heart stopped and all, getting flown back on a medevac. flight surgeons cut his chest open, took his heart out, massaged it with some wizard medic magic, and put it back in where it started beating again and the dude survived

>>34695109
If I was a cop in that scenario I'd be cursing too. All that adrenaline makes people speak differently.

>>34695115
kek

>>34694908
>>34694976
I find it interesting that 2 members of the same dept have different service pistols
>>34695109
Unfortunately, sometimes that's the only language they can understand

>>34695133
Truth.

Also, methheads, heroin addicts, and people who have more tattoos than teeth and more felony convictions than years of attendance in the public school system are indestructible and invincible--until they OD or die of a heart attack at 34.

>>34695476
definite truth to that

tattoos are in fact horcruxes for non-wizards

>>34694011
They'd only get 8 rounds from a Makarov

>>34695041
The reason I asked is because Assata Shakur and her crew were all carrying .32 Auto pistols when they got in a shootout with the cops.
but,
>Nazi marked HP
>MP40

Shit I forgot just how much WW2 milsurp was floatin around back then. Goes to bolster my opinion that it was pants on head retarded for police to continue using revolvers into the 60s and 70s. Yes they are easy to train with and more reliable than say, a 1911, but when everyone and their mama had high capacity magazines and the country literally looked like it was headed into civil war. It was really dumb to send police out with only six shots in the mag and a gun that was slow as fuck to reload. There were plenty of perfectly reliable semi auto designs other than the 1911 at the time.

It all boiled down to fuddlore though: 9mm was considered a "nazi bullet" that was too weak. Berettas and Hi Powers were "high falluten freedom hatin european" guns and despite trying to market their guns to law enforcement, no one wanted a Colt AR15 because "muh Vietnam!"

Fucking baby boomers and fudds make me fucking sick.

>>34693924
Not that guy but I have read that even in the 1920s some American organized-crime types would hire a blacksmith or a machinist to make an iron boilerplate "bulletproof vest" for them. Adding layers of boilerplate to automobile doors and automobile chassis parts to make the vehicle more bullet-resistant was a popular mod--and automobiles of that era were by today's standards damn near AFVs anyway, there having been no EPA gas mileage standards, and ultra-heavy-gauge auto body sheet metal having been at the time regarded as "solid workmanship" and "built to last."

Before WWII Winchester sold a .38 Special "police duty" load using a 200gr roundnose lead bullet rated for a hair over 600 feet per second from a 4" revolver. The low velocity was supposed to reduce danger to the public in the event of a miss or a ricochet. They stopped selling it after they got complaints that it bounced off car doors at fifty feet.

And yes, in the 1920s high-velocity .38 Super loads were popular among some "serious gunfighter types" in law enforcement, to deal with such problems. Remington made steel-core, lightweight, high-velocity .45 ACP ammo (I believe it was a 170gr bullet at 1150+ ft/sec) and there was also the ".38-44" .38 Special +P++++++ ammo that was only safe to shoot in an N-frame Smith .38 Special, for the same purpose. And this is why American law enforcement moved to the .357 Mag after the war.

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>>34685358
>>34685492

>>34695553
Well, remember also--despite having a double-stack semiauto pistol and an SMG, and being up against cops with 4" K-frames (the guy who fired the fatal shot was using a five-shot J-frame loaded with .38 Special roundnose lead, and shot him through the heart), Meyers was the one who left that parking garage feet-first.

>>34694642
7.62x25 tokarev

Ideally the surplus ball ammo designed for the ppsh

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>>34694642

>>34691258
Not that guy, but I have read that in some reports released after World War II, there were claims that 9mm, perhaps due to higher velocity (remember that German 9mm issue ammo was ferociously hot stuff, and most all wounds on the battlefield from it were from SMGs, which boosted the velocity by 10% or more over what they got from a P38), 9mm seemed to be a little more likely to fracture bone and seemed to cause more severe damage to bone, having a more shattering effect, than the slow, lumbering .45 bullet.

I can't recall the name of the report but it was released in 1947 or 1948 and was one of the first to make the official suggestion that the US military drop the .45 in favor of 9mm.

It's not entirely implausible, to me. For most of the war the German issue SMG ammo used a 90gr bullet with a sintered iron core in a mild steel jacket, and came out of an MP40 and something like 1700 ft/sec. I do not find it hard to believe that something like that could shatter bone more effectively than a .45 bullet only doing 800 or so.

>>34691208
>modern polymer-framed, striker-fired semiautos seem to be more inherently reliable than the 1911.
Citation needed.
>>34691238
>Handgun calibers are all equally marginal at killing.
They are marginal, but not equally so. There's a reason 44 magnum is used for hunting while 9mm is not.
>>34691273
Revolvers can and do malfunction. I've seen it happen. Usually it has something to do with timing problems or something wrong with the bolt.
>>34691484
>Effectiveness at hunting animals is different from self-defense against humans.
No, it isn't. Our physiology is the same as theirs.
>>34691671
Nostalgia bullshit. Old gangsters had the best weapons they could get their hands on: Tommy guns, shotguns, 1911s, rifles, etc.
>>34692548
>the niggers still knew their place back then.
This argument is popular among cuckservatives who like to blame black crime on leftists. Like most cuckservative arguments, it is naive and false. Black violent crime has existed in America for as long as blacks have.
>>34694590
>introspective
Introspection means looking at yourself, you own thoughts, feelings, emotions, etc.

>>34685155
Revolvers were cheap, reliable, accurate, and easy to use. Also pre glock era most criminals they were up against didn't have semi autos either so a revolver did just fine.

>>34695817
>Revolvers were cheap, reliable, accurate, and easy to use
So were 1911s
>>34695817
>Also pre glock era most criminals they were up against didn't have semi autos either so a revolver did just fine.
I'm not sure about that. 1911s were pretty popular among gangsters. Revovlers were probably the majority, but automatics were far from unheardof.

>>34695675
Shit, i read that too but i haven't been able to find it for ages. loved using it to fuck with fuddyfive fags

Some were, but you need to understand the culture of policing and firearms in general was very different at that time. Police used revolvers exclusively, mostly in .38 special until the 40s and 50s. By then, the .357 was firmly established and was the most powerful handgun round that was still controllable. In addition your officers didn't need to learn a new manual of arms with a full size .357, which more than out performed any autoloader.

>>34695857
>1911s were cheap
They weren't crazy expensive but I wouldn't say they were cheap. They were military issue at the time and most were bought by the military rather than the police or civilian market. Also you need to buy additional magazines for them which upped the price and maintenance cost as a certain number of mags would need to be replaced over time.

>>34695675
American ammo is often underloaded (chronograph it if you don't believe me). I guess the ammo companies are trying to save money on powder. When you compare 9mm and 45 both loaded to their standard maximum pressures and both firing bullets of the same sectional density, the 9mm is a little faster while the 45 has about 60% more cross sectional area.

>>34695904
They cost about the same as Smith and Wesson K frames. Magazines are dime a dozen.

>>34688957
>requires confronting

Pretty much every cop just sits around and makes a quota but I guess youre 5'8" and 160 lbs

>>34695770
>Citation needed.

Fair enough. I know there's a tremendous amount of gunshop commando talk out there on the Internet about the "inherent reliability" problems of the 1911, which seem to stem from a few different places:

The feed ramp angle and split feed ramp were designed around roundnose FMJ ammo only and if you can get it to work with other stuff, that's great--but that's not the spec it was designed to work with. I have a recent-production Colt 1911A1--it's one of the 2011 guns with the "100 years of service" rollmark--that feeds any and every hollowpoint I have tried and even my reloads with Bullseye and 200gr lead SWCs that I buy in bulk at gun shows. But I know not every 1911 will do this. Sometimes different mags help--old 1911 shop manuals talk about the different feed lip geometry needed for "wadcutter" vs "hardball," and so on. And there are a lot of really bad 1911 mags out there.

Another point of weakness is the internal extractor, which is a big leaf spring. I used to have a Springfield made in the early 1990s with a cast extractor that wouldn't run for sour apples until I dropped a milsurp extractor into the slide, which fixed all its problems. The leaf spring extractor seems to require very specific alloys, heat treatment, and geometry if it is to work reliably as designed, and even then some of them only last five or six thousand rounds before they have to be retensioned, or pulled and replaced. Browning could have designed the gun with a pivoting external extractor pinned in place with a tiny coil spring underneath it, but one of the selling points of the design was that it was so easy to detail strip down to the last spring and pin with no tools.

I love 1911s but, well, do you believe Tim Lau and Hilton Yam as authorities on them?

http://www.10-8performance.com/pages/Choosing-a-1911-for-Duty-Use.html
http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=3250

>>34695937
>and makes a quota
Guess how you make the damn quota? You go up to people having fun and confront them about how they're not allowed to and tell them you have to ruin their day.

The vast majority of such encounters will end with nothing but a bunch of grumbling, but it helps to look like someone who you wouldn't want to start a fight with for those near the line.

>>34695817
The real problem is that there are really three eras of law enforcement pre-glock that people are lumping in together. Prohibition Era, Post-Prohibition Era, and the Drug Gang Era.

Of the three the Prohibition Era and Drug Gang Era are extremely similar and featured law enforcement steadily ramping up to deal with increasingly violent, organized, and heavily armed criminals.

The difference between the two is that where the drug war continued on and police finished rearming into the Glock Era, the Prohibition Era was ended by the end of Prohibition and then WWII creating a slump in the organized violent offenses that had required the police to start upgunning.

tl,dr: The circumstances that were causing police to increase their armaments in the 20's and 30's diffused in the 40's and 50's leading to an era where revolvers were, once again, enough gun. This didn't happen in the 80's and 90's.

>>34696140
continued

The last time I was at a range that had rental firearms I saw a new-production Remington 1911 Commander. I happen to like the way Commanders point and balance, so I tried it.

In fifty rounds I got one nose-dive and hit the bottom of the feed ramp--roundnose FMJ. That could be a magazine problem, or a recoil spring problem, or an extractor problem. I notice the ejection pattern was throwing rounds straight up, forward, straight back in my face, to the right, and so on. I suspect a poorly fitted extractor was shifting in the slide. Maybe a better quality mag, a new recoil spring, and a new extractor would have fixed its problems.

It was a shame, because it had a nice trigger, and was quite accurate.

And I know, other handgun designs can have problems. I own a Gen 2 Glock 17 I got cheap a few years back. It fires, feeds, and cycles absolutely 100% with everything from my cast-lead reloads to Russian steelcase to some of that Paki surplus SMG ammo that came into the country a while back. But it throws fired cases straight back at my eyes about a third of the time, every mag, every type of ammunition. Otherwise I shoot the gun well and am rather annoyed. It's been back to Glock twice now. They keep saying it's fixed, and it's not.

>>34689069
>>34691314
lapd is a joke. like nypd, they are mostly diversity hires and womyn

>>34695553
Recall also that this was less than 30 years after World War II.

When they floated the idea of giving cops in NYC, or other places, "military" type equipment, it caused a whole lot of people to think instantly of Italy under Mussolini, or Franco's Spain, where in all the cities you saw cops with submachineguns slung over their shoulders on every streetcorner. People said, "no, I don't want to live in that kind of society, you're going to have to think of some other way to deal with this."

Once upon a time in the UK police officers walked a beat with nothing but a wooden nightstick, and some of London's slums in the 1880s and 1890s were every bit as hairy as they are today. A guy named Bobby Peele wrote up those rules, and he said, among other things, that the police can't prevent crime or maintain order without the willing cooperation of the public, which means the public has to see them as fellow citizens and civil servents, not as an occupying army. Maybe that was unrealistic but the Brits made it work for a century.

>>34695770
http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm

>>34695770
>There's a reason 44 magnum is used for hunting while 9mm is not.

People have done it. The late Stephen Camp of hipowersandhandguns.com (pbuh) spent 40+ years of Texas handgun deer seasons killing whitetail deer, almost always with a 9mm, usually with his rather stout handloads.

Texas Panhandle whitetails are tiny things, rarely getting up even to 100 pounds, but he still killed a hell of a lot of them. He was an uncommonly skilled marksman and uncommonly cool-headed. His web page is still up and you can see necropsy pictures. He got good results with the 124gr Hornady XTP hollowpoint over a very stout charge of Unique that exceeds max in a lot of current reloading manuals. He was getting 1250+ ft/sec from most pistol barrels, which was enough to go through the skin without clogging with hair, expand nicely, and tear a surprisingly large and ragged hole through the heart, lungs, or both. His bullet placement, at least, can not be faulted.

>>34696383
I think there are some good observations there.

The .357 Magnum had a very good reputation as a fight-stopper for a lot of years. Some will say it's just because bullet design sucked in the 70s and only the hot .357 loads using a 125gr bullet originally designed for .38 Special, but pushing it at 1500 ft/sec versus 900 meant it actually expanded most of the time, and so seemed to be, compared to the .38, "a bolt of lightning."

Then again, supposedly Massad Ayoob has shown students autopsy pictures of a human heart blown in half by a .357 Mag 125gr hollowpoint--literally torn into two big ragged hunks of tissue, no longer connected even by a thread.

And that's plausible:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJeuBJez-As

That's a pig heart in a block of ballistic gelatin getting a .45 ACP hollowpoint shot through it--which damn near tears it in two with a fraction of the velocity and energy of the super-hot .357 loads Ayoob was talking about.

>>34696491
It's hardly fair to call overpressure handloads representative of a cartridge's performance, though.

>>34696599
That's also true. Those handloads he used were knocking on the door of .357 Mag performance. They gave the sort of performance can expect when you shoot fullpower .357 through one of the 2" snubbies that are currently fashionable.

You could compare it to the super-super-super hot 9mm from companies like Underwood/Double Tap/Buffalo Bore/Cor-Bon, I guess, but I agree, this is way out of Winchester White Box territory.

>>34696582
And this kind of thing is why I sometimes become a little annoyed when I hear people say "this or that bullet design couldn't possibly be effective, hydrostatic shock doesn't work that way, it can't destroy tissue unless the velocity is over 2700 ft/sec."

I know that there are some very promising-looking bullet designs out there, like Charles Kelsey's old "Devel" bullet, and the various copies thereof, that have sharp cutting edges and angled flutes that, in theory, direct and focus hydraulic shock as the bullet travels and cause the bullet to tear a wider hole without expanding. They look to me to be especially suited for calibers like .380, where we need to make the most of the limited power that is present.

These bullets do seem impressive in ballistic gelatin. Rather than say that this can't possibly transfer over into living tissue, I would like to see someone hunt whitetail deer, feral hogs, javelina, and so on, and let us see photographs and measurements of wound channels. I am not convinced that no further improvements in bullet design are possible.

>>34696599
True, i believe that he isn't the only one who's tested combat calibers on whitetail. Courtney&Courtney for example, i think they even wrote a basic how to guide for people to test their own ammo in a similar fashion.

That being said, there's a reason why most people would only make a slightly weird face at you for taking a whitetail with a 6" .357mag, but think your an unethical asshole for doing the same with a 3" 9mm.

Of course it's also worth considering that an ideal shot on a deer may only require passing through one rib and and 3-5" of flesh while a poor shot on a human may have to pass through a forearm or arm, it's bone, a rib or the sternum, and either a few inches to reach the heart or more like 8" to reach all the way back and even touch the aorta.

A poor shot on a fat man is going to involve a lot more work than a good shot on an undersized deer.

>>34696739
FWIW there is a video of a necropsy of a couple feral pigs that were shot with extreme defender or extreme penetrator rounds. I remember one was shot with a 45-70 and the other was either a .357 or 30-30(iirc).

Frankly i was rather surprised by the amount of damage as a skeptic of the designs from the get go. Damage was between that of an expanding and fragmenting round IIRC(been a while honestly) and clearly was not FMJ level performance.

Of course whether or not they would be capable of the same effects at handgun velocities or even whether or not what i saw was a repeatable result is the question.

>>34696835
And the deer isn't trying to kill you. As the hunter you have not merely the choice but the responsibility to pick and choose your shots, to pass up a deer and let it walk on by if you don't feel like you have a good angle on the heart. A centerfire rifle's 2500 foot-pounds of kinetic energy might give you a better chance of punching through that forelimb and shattering the heavy bone in the center of it to reach on through and hit the heart than any of the common handgun cartridges.

That having been said, flesh and blood is flesh and blood. Bone is bone. And I still don't understand how a .38 Special J-frame loaded with target wadcutters is a more valid choice than .357 Mag with fullpower ammunition for the guy who's defending his life and DOESN'T get to pick and choose his shots and wait for the deer to walk by presenting its internal organs at just the perfect angle. The hunter shouldn't need that kind of power and should be just fine with that cylinder full of target wadcutters because he's waiting for the perfect humane shot at the perfect angle, right?

>>34696873
There used to be a web page called tacticalshotgun.ca where a guy posted lots of pictures of ballistic gelatin tests of various types of buckshot and slugs, and was branching out to centerfire rifle and hunting necropsy images when the site went dark about ten years back.

He loaded up some handloads using an early version of the "Sinterfire" .30 caliber 125gr frangible solids in .308 and shot a few deer with them.

Non-deforming solids or no, I was tremendously impressed by the amount of damage they did to soft tissue as they passed through. I suspect that at least some of the time they were yawing, but even so, they destroyed a lot more soft tissue than a nonexpanding bullet is "supposed to."

>>34696881
Hmm? i completely agree. .357 mag is a much more effective and potent SD caliber than .38 for those very reasons. That's more or less what i meant to convey in my post.

Honestly i think it's probably the most capable SD chambering for a handgun, and the only reason i qualify it is because on paper both 10mm and 9mm dillon with properly designed light for caliber bullets might be close enough that there extra capacity suddenly becomes a free bonus instead of something you really have to give up per round effectiveness for. In that case it would really become a question of whether one prefers a semi-auto or revolver.

I'd take a .7" 125gr projectile that'll reliably crack a mans spine from the front over a .8-.9" 230gr one that'll tap out somewhere in his chest cavity any day of the week.

>>34685526
You fucking moron. The wonder nines came way before the Miami Shootout. The Miami Shootout led them to realize that 9mm wasn't good enough either, and thus the original 10mm Auto was born. Then the paper pushers, glass wrists, and female agents complained about the recoil, so the reduced FBI load was created and became the standard. Then the faggots at S&W figured that they could get rid of the empty space in the cartridge where there used to be powder, and stick the new cartridge in a 9mm frame. The FBI lapped it up, and a lot of police departments fell for the new meme: .40 Short&Weak.

>>34696974
Well, point of order: the "Miami Massacre" you're talking about was in April of 1986.

Dornaus & Dixon shipped the first 10mm "Bren Ten" pistols in 1985, and the 10mm cartridge itself was in development more than a decade before that point.

Both .40 and 10mm derive from the old Centimeter cartridge developed back in the 1970s by Whit Collins and Jeff Cooper, as an attempt to make a cartridge whose caliber began with "4" that was compact enough to fit in existing 9mm platforms of the day, that would improve significantly on 9mm terminal ballistics. The 10mm is a lengthened Centimeter. The .40 is also slightly longer than the original Centimeter, having been designed to use short-ogive bullets of truncated cone geometry, which was felt back in the 1980s to be conducive to more efficient and reliable expansion in hollowpoint bullets.

File: Donut_licker.jpg (127KB, 1024x1331px) Image search: [Google]

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>>34685536

I can cherry pick too

>>34694254
Read "No Heroes" by Danny Coulson - he details the weapons they were using then - including MAC-10s or -11s on driveby attacks.

>>34694254
>>34695041
>>34695553
No Heroes - Coulsons' book - goes in to what weapons they were using in shootings, including Chesimard and the rest of them