>Mines kill children! >Cluster bombs hurt more civilians

>>34653748
Whatever one side sees as "unethical", the other sees as a weakness. Limiting your abilities on the battlefield is a sure way to lose.

>>34653809
Go back to >>>/a/ and stay there.

>>34653748
>do these people think for one second that if war broke out between two first-world powers they'd actually stick to their treaties and agreements over what weapons they're allowed to use?
Yes. The agreements and treaties were made by warring nations in the first place, who saw the usage of these weapons and decided together to put an end to it. What do you think would happen to the losing nation in a serious war, if it violated these agreements?
>or should we accept that treaties and agreements are only as strong as the paper they're written on?
The treaties are as strong as the punishments nations are willing to dole out for breaking them. What country is willing to risk the consequences just so they can use some moderately effective weapons that the enemy isn't using either?

Modern governments are content to comply with the screaming pussies because it's not absolutely essential to the survival of the state that their military uses phospho or cluster bombs. They can kill their enemies just as dead using "normal" weapons, or at least normal by the standards of the aforementioned screaming pussies.

People get all fired up about one weapon, the weapon is outlawed, the people feel like they've won a victory. They can brush off all the guilt they accumulated and continue standing idly by while another Middle Eastern bazaar is razed to the ground live on CNN by a poorly aimed drone strike.

And of course, if war ever broke out, real war versus an actual competent enemy, all that "outlawed" technology is going to make a triumphant comeback as it comes roaring down on some Ruskie conscript.

>>34653748
>I, personally, believe the only reason these groups are so up in arms

You're pretty stupid if you think it's only charities that think it's a good idea to avoid human suffering and collateral damage.

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>>34653945
>start using outlawed weaponry in a desperate attempt at winning
>lose the war
>get absolutely raped as a nation and have your entire leadership executed because of this brilliant action

>>34653748

But what if it's targeted at a based trump supporter, /pol/ack?

>>34653748
>I have no idea what UXO is
>I better whine

>>34653941
So what you're saying is; "if you're going to commit war crimes, make sure you win the war."

>>34654045
>he thinks if you follow teh law of warfare he is safe
>he doesn't know about 6 gorillions

>>34654073
Yes. As well as any following wars and you also have to ensure global hegemony to avoid sanctions.

Human rights and war crimes are what keep stupid people from designing better weapons.

>>34653748
I want to avoid unnecessary collateral damage, bit not at the expense of the war

>>34654089
Yeah, we need to revive Project Pluto.

>>34654045
>Implying

Fun fact: During the Nuremberg Trials at the end of Dubya Dubya 2, one of the crimes the German leadership was charged with was abandoning the treaty governing unrestricted submarine warfare.

However, these charges were thrown out, as the Americans admitted they too engaged in unrestricted sub warfare.

I'm not trying to say that a minor skirmish breaks out between Russia and Europe and suddenly the Balkans are flooded with nerve gas, but in a protracted war you can bet your hilariously shrunken testicles that certain illegal items of the world's military arsenal will make a subtle comeback.

>>34654072
>I have no idea what EOD and the Army Corps of Engineers are
>I better mock someone via greentext

>>34654256
Certain, yes. That I can freely admit, but biological weapons for example are one can of apocalypse nobody wants to open

>>34653748
>Mines
They do, that's why all our AP mines are either command or timed.
>Cluster Bombs
The problem is like above, and this is exacerbated by the colorful ribbons used to stabilize the bomblets. You can use cluster munitions just not near civilian population centers.
>Napalm/WP
Can be used, just not near civilian population due to uncontrollable fires.
What you didn't mention is DU penatrators and the carcinogenic effect of them. Really they should only be used on military vehicles.

>>34654104
From the era of "fuck you and everything you love". Shit we were looking at nuclear powered aircraft, we had nuclear A2A missiles and the Davy Crocket. It was the part of history where engineers would look at a good idea, twiddle their thumbs, chew their pencils and then say "yeah it's good and all but let's stick a nuke on it. Just to be sure".

Man. It's horrifying but there's something amazingly intriguing about it.

>>34653793
>Cluster bombs
fucking well said!

>>34653793
That's why there were so many poison gas attacks in WW2, right?

Are you aware that quite a lot of this was started by the CIA
>The soviets drop cluster mines shaped like toys in afghanistan!!! oh the humanity!!

>>34654283
I totally agree. However like Pandora's box, they will open. Now that they exist, they cannot "un-exist". Same with nukes. Lefties campaign for a global nuclear disarmament, especially faggots like Jeremy Corbyn yet the cat is out of the bag. They will never be gone.

>>34654283
Yes that's because of "blowback".
>deploy BW
>soldiers get infected
>capture said infected
>your guys get infected
>or civilians get infected
>civs spread infection across planet
>formally neutral nation's declare war cause their people are dying

>>34654354
The CIA is a fag.

>>34654283

No doubt, bio warfare is something that the pussies and the military can agree on. Chemical agents are a terrible evil, born of an age that was too naive to know what they were doing.

It's the stuff in the OP, napalm, mines, cluster bombs and the like, that's what I'm talking about. The average man of the street doesn't like seeing them, because it's not "clean" war. But to military minds, they serve a purpose.

>>34654350
Supposedly the two reasons that poison gas wasn't used in WW2 was that Hitler hated them due to being exposed to them in the Great War and that he was concerned that if he started using them then the allies would cover German cities in gas.

Granted I'm surprised he didn't have them deployed. Especially in the failing years at the end of the war. If you're going down then you may as well fuck them up with you. If it can't get any worse

>>34654382
>he was concerned that if he started using them then the allies would cover German cities in gas.
but da allys were only fighting the natsees because of da gas chamberoos

Not a fan of weapons that cause permanent, irreversible environmental damage.

>>34654382

That's a bit of a sweeping generalization to make, is it not? Based on nothing but my own opinion, I'd have thought that Germany's military doctrine would've been influenced by more men than just Hitler.

I've always assumed that the lack of significant gas deployment after the World War was simply down to how fucking horrifying it was. It was used all throughout the 4 years of war because news travels slowly and no-one at home could actually see what gas did.

Then the war ends, and fast forward to '39, and the men in charge are the same men who served back in the trenches. The same men who saw firsthand what a terrible fucking weapon gas is.

Overall, I've considered it to be a gentleman's agreement of sorts to not use gas.

>>34653748
I know right? The only good wars are the total wars. Those are the ones that cause a century of grief and really generate some good literature.

>>34654458
>I'd have thought that Germany's military doctrine would've been influenced by more men than just Hitler.
>absolute dictator
>doesn't decides everything

>>34654479
>absolute dictator
>doesn't decides everything

You can't micromanage an entire nation. People can barely control a single tribe, controlling everything down to the most miniscule of details is downright impossible.
That's why there are generals and other such staff.

>>34653748
Their main problem with the weapons you whined about is that they continue to kill long after hostilities are over. There's no real reason that a child or anyone else should be killed by a piece of uxo from a war that ended before they were born.

Unexploded ordnance seriously kills a lot of farmers and shit you nigger.

>using weapons that harm the earth

Subhuman tier

>>34653748
>Civilian casualties are terrible, yes, but do these people think for one second that if war broke out between two first-world powers they'd actually stick to their treaties and agreements over what weapons they're allowed to use?

Yes, since neither wants to die a horrible death. That's assuming we're talking non-MAD related scenarios.

>>34653748
Reminds me of that guy who made a thread about how Bomber Harris' action were fully justified and how we shouldn't bomb all ragheads back to the pleistocene.

>>34654595
Bomber Harris did nothing wrong

>>34654564
>You can't micromanage an entire nation
This is about strategic decision we are talking about. Also Hitler was notoriously known for making micromanaging decisions about weapons development and production . Tradition coming down from German kaisers who were known as battleship designers.

>>34654569
>implying you should care if some worthless nigger child dies when their population has doubled since the 80s.

>>34654614
Yes you should. I am also not happy with more and more niggers, but killing them is a) not solving the problem and b) just wasting human lives just because is really so... superfluous.

If we can prevent them from breeding the problem will solve itself in a few decades.

>>34654609
bh did everything wrong

>>34653748
How can you be so heartless OP?

Do you see this picture? Looks like a fun child's toy, right? WRONG! It's a PFM-1 MINE. The Soviets designed it specifically to look like a toy so that innocent Afghan children would get maimed by it. This is the sort of evil behavior you're defending!


Oh wait, never mind. That's actually an American BLU-43 Dragontooth. The Soviets didn't design the PFM-1 to look like a toy, they just ripped off an American design.

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>>34654696
pic related

>>34654458
No shit other people had control and not 100% Hitler. However as absolute ruler of the country and military, he had his say. If the generals and other commanders had more of a voice then Barbarossa wouldn't have happened as such, many foolish errors that were made by the 3rd Reich wouldn't have happened and there would be less fuckery in general.

You just said the exact same thing I did. They experienced the horrors and didn't like it.
>that Hitler hated them due to being exposed to them in the Great War
>Then the war ends, and fast forward to '39, and the men in charge are the same men who served back in the trenches. The same men who saw firsthand what a terrible fucking weapon gas is.

Pretty much an identical point.

>>34654404
I know people that think that that's literally the whole reason for the war.

>>34654073
Sounds like WW2 for me

>>34654376
Napalm, mines, clusterbombs and all of these are though still cleaner than bioweapons.

>>34654700
what kind of toy is it/

>>34654767
one that helps cleanse the earth of muslims

>>34654767
Standard soviet toy. Scraps parts of machinery.

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>>34654767
It isn't a toy. It's a mine. It has the pedals because it's designed to flutter down to earth softly.

Far from being designed to be cruel, it's designed to chemically neutralize itself after a period of time. America used them during Vietnam but their use went largely unnoticed by the public. Then the Russians ripped off the design and used them in Afghanistan. This time the media noticed and slandered the Russians by saying they'd designed a mine that looked like a toy in a deliberate attempt to target children.

pic related is the Russian version. It's a complete ripoff of the American version.

>>34653748

The Cold War ended in 1991 and people think history is over. Which, as a result, means there is no more need for scary things like guns or bombs in the first place.

Obviously this notion is misplaced but it goes to demonstrate how narrowminded people who can remember the fall of communism are.

>>34653748
>they'd actually stick to their treaties and agreements over what weapons they're allowed to use?
They did in WW1.

>>34654700
Looks fuck all like an afghan child's toy to me.

Ask your average soldier to use poison gas and he won't be very happy.

Soldiers morale is often based on knowing they are doing the right thing. If you ask them to use forbidden weapons that will get them in trouble later most will refuse and think less of the cause they're fighting for.

Mines are fine but faggots need to take their toys home when they've done playing

>>34654632
>human lives
>human

Human Rights lawyers should be shot.

>>34655323
Fan fact: american soldiers are using banned unhuman dum-dum bullets but seem to not care. It is about brainwashing and who is wining.

>>34654350
Japan was known for using gas in China fairly extensively.

>>34655287
No kidding. Did you stop reading before the point where I said that it's not even Russian? That's an American mine, they were used in Vietnam. The Russians ripped it off.

>>34653748
> if war broke out between two first-world powers they'd actually stick to their treaties and agreements over what weapons they're allowed to use?
Well yeah, they're going to stick to their treaties. If the US goes to war, NATO will back it up because US is the NATO funding. It's why you see Trump not defunding NATO. China or Russia fuck off, the west goes to war for the $$.
> If ISIS were fully mobilized
ISIS is fully mobilized and they can't even take over Syria or Iraq and you think they're going to make it to the US, much less take on all the fucked up fudds that dream of a government pardon for doing fucked up shit?
>What's your opinion on "unethical" weapons on the battlefield, /k/?
You use it on me, I find more and use it on you.
Pretty simple.

>>34653748
>What's your opinion on "unethical" weapons on the battlefield, /k/? Should we try to regulate war as best we can, or should we accept that treaties and agreements are only as strong as the paper they're written on?

It's pretty much the extent of the paper they're written on, the Geneva convention banned chemical and biological agents, but that did not stop both the United States and Soviets from developing various agents regardless. It's a worst-kept secret that plenty of first-world powers have these so-called "inhumane" munitions stockpiled and ready to use if and when shit hits the fan.

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>>34655636
Give a source on American troops using expanding ammunition.
>inb4 muh fragmenting 5.56

>>34653748
Friendly reminder universal human rights and ethics don't really exist.

>>34655712
>muh Jewish lawyers tricks
No one beside US interpret convention this way So it is only American full of the righteous think that this is allowed.

>>34653748

Most nations don't obey the retarded regulations, with the exception of exploding small arms ammo.

>>34655679
>China status: first world
>Russia status: second world(third world if you actually consider this government to be a different entity)

>>34655751
The US is the only superpower in the world.
We can do whatever the fuck we want because we can take on just about nation/combinations of nations.

>>34655768
You need to look up what 1st world means.
China and Russia are 3rd world by definition.

>>34655773
This is why >>34655323 is wrong.

>>34655785

>Russia
>3rd world

Russia and the entire com block are 2nd world.

If 1st world means NATO, 2nd means Comblock and 3rd means who the fuck gives a shit.

If 1st world means wealthiest citizens, 2nd means not so rich aka Eastern Europe and some nations in Asia, South America and the ME, 3rd world means former colonies, 4th world means retards, and 5th world means tribals retards.

>>34655785
China was an allied country you stupid dick.

>>34655785
>>34655852
14 million chinks died in ww2 fighting the axis

>>34655868
First/second world were defined during the cold war. China was already commies, they're second world by definition.

>>34653748
>but do these people think for one second that if war broke out between two first-world powers they'd actually stick to their treaties and agreements over what weapons they're allowed to use?
Well, strangely enough the countries that actually matter haven't actually signed these treaties. Meanwhile Europe signs these treaties secure in the knowledge that USA will back them up with effective weapons, and Africa signs these treaties secure in the knowledge that they just got an increase in sweet NGO dollars and that force multiplying zero still equals zero.

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>>34655881
>>34655868
>>34655852
Blue = 1st, Red = 2nd, Green = 3rd

>>34654104
>>34654343

>A time when men were men and the idea of using low-altitude nukes to shield our cities from Russian nukes actually made sense.

God, a 1960's nuclear exchange with Genies and Bomarcs vaporizing soviet bombers while nuke-tipped Nike's turn every major US target into Starfish Prime 2.0 would have been fucking incredible to see.

>>34655751
5.56 shattering when hitting flesh at close ranges is in no way unique.

This thread is peak summer.
>"We will bring these back for war with russia"
play more cod

>>34653748
There's no treaty that bans incindiary weapons, geneva just says try not to get them all over the civilians.
No countries that fight wars regularly signed ottowa or the cluster bomb one.
NGOs, the UN and other faglords crying about it doesn't make it illegal.
Also, even if it was
>charging a major country with war crimes
The US straight up used napalm in populated areas during iraq 2 and all that came of it was UN hand flapping.
The USA and other global powers have allowed their SOF to use expanding ammo during GWOT.

>>34653748
No but then again I'm not a soulless amoral fuck.

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>>34654073

>>34655751
And yet russia is morally superior with 5.45? The bullet that was dubbed "poison" for it's violent fragmentation and tumbling

>>34654045
Yeah, Iraq and Afghanistan sure were raped for all the violations of war they have made over the past decade. And America? America was absolutely crucified. Literally quaking at the UN and their ruthless application of international law.

>>34654458
>That's a bit of a sweeping generalization to make, is it not? Based on nothing but my own opinion, I'd have thought that Germany's military doctrine would've been influenced by more men than just Hitler.
>posted from my He-177 that was a dive bomber because Hitler thought dive bombers were cool

>>34653748
>but do these people think for one second that if war broke out between two first-world powers they'd actually stick to their treaties and agreements over what weapons they're allowed to use?

A number of those treaties and agreements were followed during the World Wars. Outside of a few local incidents chemical weapons did not see use during a war that killed 60 million people because people agreed not to use them. Agreements can work.

You are also ignoring the fact that your scenario would require two nuclear armed powers to go to war. As none of the nuclear states have agreed not to use nuclear weapons and a nuke is far, far more destructive weapon then a simple incendiary its a bit of a mute point.

>Treaties and normative non-use can work.
>The treaties are for regulating brushfire, proxy and regional wars.
>Wars between major powers are covered by deterrence.

>>34655677
It was a supporting statement to show that I agree that it is risible to have demonised the soviets for the toy mine.

I read your post. It was very exciting.

>>34653748
And why shouldn't I have a bipedal nuke-launching robot?

>>34654859
>it's designed to chemically neutralize itself after a period of time

Very interesting, but wikipedia doesn't tell me anything about that as far as I can see. Can you give me a source that I can use?

>>34654859

I had a Vietnamese professor bitch about these endlessly. That and the propaganda leaflets.

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>>34657155
>but wikipedia doesn't tell me anything about that
>Wikipedia

A well known and credible source of information to begin with, right?

>Wikipedia...

>>34653748
Haven't read the thread yet, but great idea for one OP, you get a gold star.

>>34657292
>Haven't read the thread yet, but great idea for one OP, you get a gold star.

I hope you're being sarcastic. We get these threads almost daily harping about how the geneva convention is for losers and total war is awesome and militaries should be as brutal as possible when fighitng "subhumans" blah blah blah

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>>34653748
>If ISIS were fully mobilized and performing a large scale beach assault along the west coast
Fucking lost.

>>34654382
>>34654458
The biggest reason Germany didn't deploy gas during WWII is because when they developed Sarin, Tabun, and a few other nerve agents, they assumed that the Allied did too. They expected widespread retaliation with nerve gas if they ever deployed gas, so they didn't.

>>34655712
My friend that was a scout sniper claimed to use black talon rounds in any pistols he was issued along with some kind of HP 5.56. And unlike most Marines, he wasn't prone to flights of fancy.

>>34655571
>trying this hard

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>>34653748
I'm divided; On one hand, I think it's a stupid idea to attack all humanitarian organizations just because you believe that deterrents aren't a thing and treaties don't work (historically not true)

On the other hand, I have to acknowledge that if a war erupted between two major (likely nuclear-armed) nations, it would be pretty different from any historical conflict. We probably won't see great use of chemical or even biological weapons in the future, based purely on how inefficient they are at killing shit, let alone the unpredictable nature of their effects on the battlefield. Nuclear is a bit more likely, but there's a fairly good chance that nobody here today will live to see a nuclear exchange. Cluster munitions will never go away, since they're about as basic and efficient as it gets when it comes to saturating an area with hundreds of spherical "fuck you's" Same goes for incendiaries and probably any form of DEW we see in the near future.

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>>34656835
>MUTE POINT

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>>34657273
>>34657155
Wikipedia does say it actually:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLU-43_Dragontooth

>>34657665
>And unlike most Marines, he wasn't prone to flights of fancy.
But evidently he did fall for meme rounds.

>>34654365
If they want to do away with nukes, then they can say hello to more major wars.

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>>34653748
Imo, races shouldn't infight at all, and should use whatever weapons are most effective and situationally appropriate against other races, which btw usually consists of diplomatic measures because war is extremely expensive

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Did it ever occur to the OP and others that some of these weapons aren't in use because military strategies and tactics have evolved, and the military industrial complex has moved to meet those changes?

Cluster bombs being one. Does an advancing force really want to go through the area that's now contaminated with dud AP and AT bomblets? Uh, no? Are air forces attacking large concentrated armored units? No.

Napalm. I'm aware we still have a gelled fuel incendiary in stock, but it's main use is against formations of infantry in the open. Are those common targets for air power these days, especially in areas where the deployment of such weapons would cause friendly fire losses due to the difficulty in marking positions and harm non-combatants, further fueling the insurgency?

Land mines? Because the logistics in planting fuck loads of mines are something that's done with a wave of a hand? And there's a real threat of large mechanized forces to justify the emplacement of large fields of victim initiated munitions? And the potential of emplacement interfering with your forces ability to maneuver isn't something leaders would consider?

We should bring back air dropped fletchettes. Lazy Dog is fucking metal. That faggot max Brooks should have had it in World War Z.

>>34657330
Be honest, when was the last time the Geneva Convention even enforced? It's for losers because it is nothing but an inanimate sheet of paper with less police backing then a parking ticket. It's the Geneva Suggestion, made by a country who has never been to war in living memory.

Some munitions are safer in the aftermath of a conflict, while not causing decreased effectiveness. Example, of mines that expire after 15-20 years, versus mines that can still kill to this day from WW2, long after their intended use.

>>34654283
I invite you to research the information that has been released about Israels ethnic bioweapons.

When your an ethnostate, that Pandoras box can be opened because it will only destroy everything besides your people

>>34654350
How dare you forget the 20 million, goy

>>34659112
Exactly my point. That and if one side gets rid of nukes then the other will just nuke them

>>34659230
>Cluster bombs being one. Does an advancing force really want to go through the area that's now contaminated with dud AP and AT bomblets? Uh, no? Are air forces attacking large concentrated armored units? No.


Not to mention they're obsoleted on both ends of the conflict spectrum. A laser-guided bomb does less collateral for COIN. SFW in a CBU or JSOW are better for killing high-end armor in large formations.

>>34653941
cluster munitions, ICM, DPICM, Sensor fuzed submunitions, bomblets, artillery launched mine dispersal, cluster/aerial mine dispersal, clustered incendiaries, etc have shown their .
astounding effectiveness on the battlefield as of late.

Aerial cluster bombs may make way for sensor fuzed submunitions, but sensor fuzed DPICM and arty/air dispersed (including "Smart") minelayers like Volcano aren't going anywhere

>>34654354
The soviets had aerial dropped AP cluster mines that were almost a carbon copy of an AP aerial mine the US used in Vietnam

>>34654696
The soviets literally copied it and made the color tan/brown

>>34657251
why did he hate the leaflets?

>>34655636
Outside of special forces using hollow point pistol ammuniton, or match rifle ammuniton with a slight hole instead of a point at the ogive to improve stabilization. Regular military is forced to use shitty 9mm ball and normal FMJ
Besides the point if expanding hollow point ammunition is cruel than why the fuck are police forces allowed to use it?

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>>34653748
>do these people think for one second that if war broke out between two first-world powers they'd actually stick to their treaties and agreements over what weapons they're allowed to use?
They did the last time. Nobody used chemical weapons in WWII for example.

It's the shitholes and terrorists that you have to worry about breaking treaties.

>>34657665
There is a "Hollow Point" match grade 5.56 and 7.62 round used by the military - the hollow point is more akin to what you see on a 5.45x39 round - barely there - a slight hole instead of a point in the ogive - it's for stabilization at long distances.

However SF is confirmed to use hollow point ammunition in their pistols - but SF also conducts missions outside of the normal preriphery of a "war".
Also insurgents, cartelios, and terrorists are not legal or lawful combatants

>>34655712
It doesn't matter - insurgents ,terrorists, Cartelios, and the other human garbage we fight are not legal or lawful combatants anyway. Technically we could go fucking nuts with every banned weapon under the sun

>>34659345
Exactly. And then the American press slandered them, saying they'd created a mine that looked like a toy.

>>34659423
rebels can be privileged combatants too and then burgers fight the legal armies all the time, the last time it was libya

>>34659375
>match rifle ammunition with a slight hole instead of a point at the ogive to improve stabilization.
As I understand it, the tiny hole itself does nothing for stabilization. Rather that's merely a consequence of the manufacturing process used when creating very precise bullets.

>>34659448
yet again, i dunno who would even think that thing looking as a piece of valve looks like a toy

>>34659375
>expanding hollow point ammunition is cruel than why the fuck are police forces allowed to use it?
Police use it because expanding ammunition is LESS cruel to the innocent people behind the target.

That's not a meaningful factor in war.

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>>34659423
Return of the B-Patrone exploding bullets when?

>>34659472
Nobody who ever saw it thought it looked like a toy. What the American media did was say to the public:
>The Soviets are using mines that look like toys!
Without ever actually showing the public examples of the mines. They'd talk about it but not show it.

>>34659472
Inbred afghan children

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>>34657603
Germans were too busy gassing jews to gas allies

>>34655785
The modern bullshit definition of 1st world and 3rd world doesn't take into account 2nd world and is immediately invalidated.

Take the cold war definition:
1st World: The Western Democracies and western democratic non-aligned - Swiss, Austria, Sweden, Finland
2nd World: Major Communist States and Communist non-aligned - Yugoslavia
3rd World: Everyone else broken into:
Non-aligned
Western aligned, Anti communist and Democracies (South Africa)
Eastern aligned - small commie states (Cuba), socialist democracies (India), other eastern aligned states (Angola).


A realistic modern definition
1st World: The West and the Anglosphere
2nd World: Near Peers - China, Russia, CIS states, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, etc
Transitional: States straddling 2nd and 3rd world status - India, Brazil - also including economic powerhouse states that are not 1st world or near peers - Mexico, North Africa, Thailand, Phillipines. I push these closer to 2nd world but in reality they still have major problems compared to China/Russia and other near peers
3rd World - everyone else - from prosperous island nations with tons of tourism to garbage tier african shitholes

>>34653748
>Muh cluster munitions r bad
Yeah because cluster bombs are totally used on densely populated areas.

>>34659550
>A realistic modern definition
>2nd World: ... Japan

nani

>>34659457
Rebels can indeed be privledged combatants - terrorists aren't rebels, in fact basically no insurgent group in Iraq made it their goal to liberate Iraq.

The Vietcong were legitimate combatants, arab shitheads wanting to kill off shia's/impose islamic law/etc aren't exactly legitimate.
There is also the fact that the Iraqi government was a democracy and was internationally recognized - despite it starting out as a puppet state

>>34654968
>what is gas warfare
lolno

>>34659573
Japan and S. Korea are by definition eastern powers, Russia is a democracy.
All of them are near peers to the West.
The old cold war definition may have put Japan in the 1st world spot.

A better definition for 2nd world is: Eastern Powers - near pears, equals and economic rivals outside the West and the Anglosphere and generally in the Eastern Hemisphere

>>34656619
For what? We didn't do anything even nearly as bad as the Nazis.

Let's be honest here, the Nazis weren't a fan of trials, and the idea of "war criminals" would never have occurred to them, beyond killing our leadership in camps simply because they'd be political dissidents, I'm fairly confident that there would be nobody on trial for Dresden.

>>34659626
most of isis fighters aren't terrorists though, they are merely illegal combatants, some are war criminals and very few are actual terrorists

inb4 muh membership in a terroristic organization etc crap. suppose you send them a letter asking them to accept you in their orders, by that definition you automatically become a terrorist lol

>>34654837
kek

>>34659646
you're saying gas was outlawed before ww1?

>>34659683
the modern japan is de facto a part of the west

>>34659700
ISIS is an army without a state though, everything it has taken it has taken from legitimate states that it has failed to defeat

>>34659719
Yes, the Hague conventions specifically prohibited the use of poisonous gas in warfare.

>>34659727
Japan is not the west.
Being western aligned does not make you western.
Literally every county I described as 2nd world save for China is a democracy, and of those all of them are western aligned save for Russia and members of the Commonwealth of Independent States (Belarus and the Central Asian ex-USSR states)

>>34659736
i suppose they are unprivileged combatants (albeit desu they likely could aim for the status of privileged ones if they were more clever) but as for me a terrorist it's somebody who personally prepares or executes or directly helps to prepare a terrorist attack, not a guy who takes a rifle and tries to fight helos and jets

>>34659719
Specifically Section IV.2 of the 1899 Hague Convention:

>Declaration concerning the Prohibition of the Use of Projectiles with the Sole Object to Spread Asphyxiating Poisonous Gases
>This declaration states that, in any war between signatory powers, the parties will abstain from using projectiles "the sole object of which is the diffusion of asphyxiating or deleterious gases." Ratified by all major powers, except the United States.

>>34659690
did you forget that russia was our ally?

>>34659763
japan is also the first world by the cold war era definition

>>34659775
thanks, wikipedia

>>34659768
War Crimes have degitimized them - whether part and parcel to the Quran or not.
The Kurd's are lawful combatants in comparison and they will likely get their independence finally when this shit is over

>>34654761
Lol u wot

Westernized smallpox is literally apocalypse tier shit. Nerve agents and other gases not so much, but bioweapons need to be banned for the survival of humanity. It terrifies me to think that a lot of these crazy fucking jihadistsb in the leadership of ISIS are legitimately doctors and such, and all it would take is one of them deciding that the death of all humanity is worth it.

To be honest we could probably design gas that would be so effective that the only solution would be full biohazard suits for everyone involved, with gas hanging like a fog over every battlefield and any single shot that broke containment assigning the soldier to a hideous death. Which i don't think any nation really wants.


Though that does sound like a cool fucking post apocalypse setting for a tabletop game...

>>34659787
I could pull you up proper academic sources but there is no real point since Wikipedia is clear enough.

>>34659790
>they will likely get their independence finally when this shit is over

if usa manages to twist the arms of syria and iraq to give them a part of their legitimate territory

>>34659780
Japan was first world by the Cold War definition - noone is disputing that.

Modern bullshit definitions for 1st and 3rd world take no account towards 2nd world or even attempt to define it anymore.
A proper post -cold war definition of second world would be eastern powers.

>to give them a part of their legitimate territory
by them here i mean kurds and by their i mean syria and iraq btw

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>>34659777
iirc hitler's propaganda for soviet civilians on the occupied territories tried to paint stalin as a criminal who ordered to burn their cities, if they had managed to capture him there would have been a trial i believe

>>34659805
lol, i remember that story about a guy who invented a death virus to kill people with more than one sexual partner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moral_Virologist

Did the Japanese use poison gas?

>>34659934
on chinks

>>34659962
dishonorabu!

>>34653748
Do we have to bring Saddam Hussein back to life and then kill him again to you to show you what happens when you use weapons youre not supposed to??? Watch his execution video where they ask him any last words and hang him mid sentence????

>>34659360
Would you want garbage raining down on you?

Had this discussion with my philosophy teacher about when Trump bombed the Syrian airport after the chemical weapons attack. He asked if anyone knew why shit like that was banned but other shit wasn't. I didn't know for sure but I'm almost positive one of the reason are that the area of effect isn't a definite area and the wind and shit can carry the agents to effect other areas not intended by the aggressor. His response was "Well what about bombs and stuff? That kills people that aren't soldiers all the time." The difference is there's a much smaller frag range to that of CBRN agents so I told him it was a non-issue. He dropped it but it was left there for consideration by everyone else.
Does anyone know the definite reason why CBRN agents are disallowed over conventional bombs? I think I have it spot on but I'm always eager to learn.

>>34659230
The anatomy of the man seeking refuge under the car confuses me.

>>34654859
How is it triggered?

>>34657273
hence why he's asking for more information

>>34660600

There's a few reasons.

Persistence is a big one. Many chemical weapons, especially modern chemical weapons, make an area dangerous for a long time without marking the area of effect.This is the same problem as air deployed mines that fail to self destruct but much, much worse. VX on the bottom of a door knob of fence rail can kill people months after deployment.

Second is unnecessarily complicated wounds. The method of action of many chemical weapons, acting on the nervous system or respiratory system, creates large numbers of casualties that are difficult to treat, especially compared to simple explosives and fragmentation weapons.

Last is, as you've noted, the large and sometimes poorly defined area of effect. It's very, very hard to deploy many chemical weapons without effecting unintended areas.

>>34657603
amusing anecdote, the exact same thing happened with chaff. Both sides developed it independently but neither wanted to expose its existence to the other side.

>>34657273
He wasn't arguing with you, he just wanted to know more.

>>34660600
the correct answer it's because ptsd vets of ww1 decided so because they were scared

>>34660677
Once armed any pressure that deforms the plastic skin. Basically if it's handled firmly, stepped on or anything over the lightest touch, boom.

>>34659240
lol dude.

you actually think that because its called the geneva convention that it was "made" (lol) by switzerland?

thats amazing

>>34660677
Its called "dragons tooth" or some shit like that, the us/russia/china all have the similar design of it, meant to be released en mass in a cluster bomb, and children tend to pick them up and use them like a toy, but they are shock sensitive, shake it too hard, step on it, or even rock it too much after too long and it explodes

>>34659240
The United States is a signatory and thus the treaty is enforced as law within the US and it's territories.

>>34653748
>civilian casualties are terrible
No civilians in the sandbox

>>34659829
>>34659683
a post cold war definition has no reason to exist. It simply isn't useful. Just tell everyone to fuck off with their useless and/or nonsensical definitions.

>>34654283
>>34654365
>>34654366
>>34654376
>>34659251

Oh, good. I was worried that one of you might have actually known our current doctrine on biological warfare. That's a relief.

>>34653748
i believe that weapons should not be regulated at all
to win any war the 'civilians expendable' approach is necessary otherwise the enemy will just hide behind civilians like isis does and there won't be shit you can do about it
wide area of effect weapons are the only way to go as they can take apart an entire city in a short amount of time and lets face it, a short war is a good war
tl;dr UN FUCK OFF MUH BIG BOMBS

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>>34654073
NYEEEES

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>>34654354
>dropping mines shaped like toys
>targets little sandnigglets
fine by me

ITT
1st world sheltered people who are fine with wars killing thousands of civilians so long as it doesn't happen in their own backyard.

I love you /k/ but get real

>>34661119
>dropping mines shaped like toys
Except this never happened.

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>>34661175
but it should

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>>34659388
>nobody used chemical weapons in WW2

>>34659388
>holocaust denier
fuck off

>>34653748
The entire problem is that people actually care about collateral damage and civilian casualties as a whole.

Alexander the Great pacified his newly won empire by burning every single village, town or city that kept opposing him to the ground, so did Caesar, Cortez, basically every single successful conqueror. Some people and places need a carrot on a stick, some need to be hit with a stick. And here we are in 21st century when the worst thing you can ever do is to accidentally hit some civilians while fighting the enemy. No surprise we can't pacify a fucking sandbox.
>>34654350
Poison gas didn't really do its job. WW1 casualties caused by it formed only slight portion of the overall death toll, but could've been potentially disastrous when used against civilian population. Since the first days of the war, British long range bombers reached Berlin(although at first carrying out propaganda campaign and nothing else), therefore meaning that if Germans used it, the retaliation would be far more severe than they could cope with. For policing conquered territory other measures were more effective as well(gas contaminates the soil and groundwater).

>>34661234
>imblying

>>34659302
Except they cost 20 times as much.

>>34653748
100 people get blown to bits for freedum:
Footnote in the news ticker

15 people die from nerve agent:
REEEEEEEEE/ Oy vey it's annodah Shoa/ literally Hitler/ illegal attack on souvereign nation.

>>34656635
>for it's violent fragmentation
Burger pls.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg4rYS9qITM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRbAfdoU9vY

They usually only cry when Israel does it. Like Syria cried and cried for muh lebanon over Israeli clusterbombs but uses them amply now.

>>34659375
Murican interpretation of convections is funny and evil. This is clearly red pills on "conventions". Might is right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNekOq9CBQA

If america would full lose war all their soldiers and command would be executed for committing war crimes

>>34659934
Yes, on the chinese in Manchuria. They also used the BUBONIC FUCKING PLAGUE in the form of fleas on them.

Sick fucks made the Nazis look like boy scouts

>>34660485
Imagine the feeling of seeing all those leaflets fluttering down and just knowing your gonna be ordered to clean them all up. Nothing the CIA could write would be more depressing than that.

>>34653793
terror weapons don't really work well tactically or strategically. Now if either side had VX or a similar neurotoxin in WWII in large amounts it would be a different story but anything stoppable by a gas mask without a mop suit would be a one off surprise weapon once before your enemy started doing the same thing and every side just started issuing gas masks.

>>34654045
>history
>written by the losers
wew

if nuking the shit out of the ruskies and immediately dropping enough VX to exterminate all life on the planet into russia had won WWIII in the 90's do you honestly think the international courts would be doing anything but nuremburging surviving russian high command on (((charges))) of their (((war crimes)))?

>>34654369
You have hurt Evan Mcmuffin's feelings.

>>34653748
Mines are a bitch because armies suck at keeping tabs on how they've deployed them, making clearing a fucking bitch, and often they opt to just leave it be.
And despite modern munitions are designed to "sterilize" themself after a period of time, this process is imperfect and can still leave other parts of the weapon (fuze/detonator/booster) dangerous enough to maim people.

Cluster munitions are even worse. Think about how poorly your typical army knows how mines have been deployed.
At least an Army can usually define the borders of their minefields with some degree of accuracy.
But an Air Force that has dropped cluster munitions? They'll shrug and wave their arms at an area and go "Over here I guess?"

>>34660030
>Implying we wouldn't have found other reasons to kill him

>>34661452
>ballistics jell is an accurate simulation of the human body
I'm not sure how to tell you this vasily so brace yourself.
There's an entire skeleton inside your body, right now!

>>34661279
You do't have to actually murder people, just starve them. One thing that worked pretty damn well in keeping people in line was the siege which prevented them from growing food beyond what they had stored, which we can no longer do because it would entail blockading Pakistan and China from literally feeding terrorists. You cut off a societies ability to sustain itself, and it will be at your mercy.

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>>34661758
>skeleton

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Anti-personal kid.

>>34654595
>>34654609
Dresden was a false flag by Hitler made to create sympathy for the German people.

>>34653748
The treaties are out of the window the second a major conventional conflict starts. You'll see nerve agents, germ warfare and nuclear arms; Dow Chemical will make a killing.

>>34654073
>>34654073
Isn't that literally what Curtis LeMay said? And if Based LeMay said it, it's good enough for me.

>>34654336
What about thermobaric weapons? The Ruskies love 'em , and I'd love to find out more if we use them too.

>>34654366
the only good bioweapons are anthrax spores, and they're delivered nearly the exact same as chemical weapons anyway. Why fuck around with BW/CW when we can just launch a rocket through a window?

>>34653748
Just fyi OP. Much of the "smoke" artilery fired projectiles is WP. Also we atill totally used the shit out of CBU's especially Blu 24/36/42 series for anti-personnel and blu 97 series for anit armor.

>>34654859
Blu 43 dragonstooth

>>34660651
He's one of those secret German skinwalkers.

He gets confused with the whole "neck" thing sometimes.

>>34655785
>>34655805
Gus, guys, 1st world is by efinition the USA and her allies, the second world is the soviet union and her allies, and the third world is anyone else

By definition, Russia and China are BOTH the third world, there IS no more second world because there IS no more soviet union

>>34654336
>muh DU
Just stop.
DU is so radioactively benign it's used as shielding.
The only threat it poses is that it's a heavy metal poison like half the shit militaries around the world shoot at each other

>>34654275
>Implying those exist in the countries we bomb after we're done with them

>>34663767
Nowadays those terms have replaced the terms Developed-Developing-Undeveloped world.

>>34661936
>the entire human body is made of limbs.
Closer, boris but no cigar. I do wonder where you folks sourced those arms from, though.
HVSC ammunition tumbles and frags like a mad cunt. That's what happens when you chuck an itty-bitty lead pill super fast.
It's good that it does, HVSC bullets designed not to frag/tumble really suck at killing people.
Drop the moral superiority act, it makes you look silly.

>>34664985
This. Get rid of DU, you need tungsten, which -- surprise! -- is also a heavy metal and is also toxic. Battlefields are dangerous. Only a feminazi or a lawyer would disagree to the point where it hamstrings our ability to fight ruthless enemies ruthlessly.

>>34660600
fundamentally they are scary. Chemical weapons are less effective the bombs and guns, but the maiming and horror of a gas attack during WWI scared everyone into banning them.

Biological weapons are inherently uncontrollable, which is why no ones going to use them. Also again after having seen many plagues and their horrors, biological weapon use was banned.

Nukes are significantly more destructive than conventional weapons, and given that their cousins thermonuclear weapons are quite litterally city killers, any use of them invites total destruction. Again after seeing the horrors of nagasaki and hiroshima, two cities wiped out by two bombs, the world again decided those are too scary to use, and collectively banned them.

All these bans are meaningless by the way. There is no one enforcing them, and its only a gentleman's agreement that keeps them from being used. As an earlier anon said, if we wanted to used CBRN against terrorists and insurgents in iraq afghanistan and Syria, we would be perfectly within the law. If we wanted to use them against any country, we could, but we would have some political blowback, more for breaking the gentleman's agreement than for the actual death and destruction.

>>34657273
>Wikipedia isn't credible
Literally scroll down to the citations and check them, you blithering idiot.

>>34665124
> frags like a mad cunt
Only dumdum bullets made by Americans. Day of rope when?
>>34661452

>>34665172
>Chemical weapons are less effective the bombs and guns
Nerve agents like VX are very difficult to defend against. Only top line NATO NBC Suits will be ok.. Soviet Novichok agent negated all NBC Suits:.

>>34665126
Kill yourself Phil

>>34665664
>just reposting the jell test
Once again I wonder if russians are actually a race of invertibrates cleverly disguised to look almost-human.
In the end, does a dead man care if the bullet tumbled him to death more or fragged him more?

>>34665806
>does a dead man care
Did dead jews care about holocaust and punishing nazi war criminals :^)?

>>34666077
There's the problem. You gotta finish the job and not half-ass it.
You'd think the germans would be more thorough

>>34653941
actually what kind of punishment does a country get for doing that?
is there a clause on the contract
"If you dont obey this we all will invade you and bomb you back to the stoneage"
or is it more like "We all signed it... so we do it... because we signed it"?

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>>34661758
I had I skeleton removed years ago, no longer shall I be tormented by the bony menace.

>>34654479
hitler didnt want the stg44 and thought it was a waste, they had to sneak it under his nose and give it a funny name and pretend it wasnt what it was. it was only when it was nearly done they showed it and he was impressed. this happened a bunch of times.

>>34661279

If we actually went balls out in the Middle East. They'd all be our bitches in a year.

I wouldn't be surprised if a country gets tired of the Middle East's bullshit and turns the entire area into a crater of glass in the next 100 years.

>>34659934
I've been reading about some of the spooky tests Unit 731 did in laboratory conditions. It's a dirty, (but as of 2001 easily verifiable) secret that Japan's own Dr Mengele and his staff was given immunity from War Crimes prosecution in exchange for providing the US with all their notes on biological weapons. There were always hints though, like one paper published by one of them in the 50s. It says that the experiment was done on monkeys. The little critters got bad fevers, in the range of 101-104 F. Eventually some Western zoologists found this to be a very disturbing detail, since that would be a totally normal body temp in a healthy monkey.

>>34665126
this is true

>>34668531
iirc i have read about that unit, i was fascinated when it was briefly mentioned that some of the unit crew composed haiku about how pretty was the place where it was situated

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Anyone notice that these same "humanitarian" groups are from countries that don't engage in war or pay anything for a military?

>>34653748
If you're that concerned, drop a dime on 'em.

>>34662682
Thermobaric weapons are just FAE's.

>>34664985
>>34665126
Surprise, faggots don't have reading comprehension. I said you can USE them but they shouldn't be used on some niggerrigged technical in the middle of a fucking town. And I thought you would be familiar with Beta radiation since you're an emitter.

War is war. Your opponent and you are void of all rights and fair treatment until the period of combat has been closed. What constitute rights and fair treatment is to be decided after the period of combat has been closed.

>>34653748
yeah, you sure wouldn't give a fuck about civilians getting killed unless its your own family getting roasted, just sounds like you're edgy.

>>34661234
nobody used chemical weapons in combat you handy dandy

>>34671320
>Thermobaric weapons are just FAE's.
Thermobaric are thermobarics
FAE is FAE.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/thermobaric.htm

>>34669606
They made a real fucked up bio picture about 731 that I could barely get through.

Can't remember the name so one day I may get fucked flipping through the channels

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>>34672655
Semantics, one just uses a different explosive to achieve the same result.

>>34660741
But the Allies did use it, though. The British used it in their air raids during Operation Gomorrah over Hamburg to excellent effect.

>>34661279

There's usually one guy in any thread who knows whats going on...this is the guy...

Well, him and the one who mentioned that the germans actually thought the anglosphere had developed nerve agents (like they had) because they WEREN'T BEING MENTIONED in chemistry journals (sure proof of a coverup, so thought hitler). Which was...because they hadn't thought them up yet. So yeah, that and what this guy ^ said is basically the answer to the whole "durr durr but gas wasn't used in WWII".

Of course, if you do a little reading you will know that everyone was EXPECTING gas. Hence the fucking GAS MASKS people were made to carry around all the time. As it happens, the russians were the most skeptical about it, knowing that even smoke was hard enough to get it to do what you fucking wanted.

>>34653748
Remind them that Kaiser Wilhelm tried to have shotguns declared inhumane.

Still, weapons with effects that linger tend to become hazards after the war. It hurts everybody long term if you can't user land because there are landmines everywhere.

>>34664985
Actually, the uranium dust is poisonous even if it's not radioactive.

>>34657603
If it would've been up to the Army general staff Germany would've used gas back in Dunkirk. Hitler never allowed it even on the eastern front where it would have made sense like purging Stalingrad. The only probable reason is his personal distaste for chemical weapons since he subject to those during his own service on the western front during WW1.

That little lance corporal lead the war more with his feelings than rational military decision making.

>>34662682
Lingering effects from thermobarics is oxygen depletion, which is solved in about an hour of open air, and structural damage, which really isn't a war crime when applied to buildings occupied by combatants.

>>34673474
Very much so. Most of the failings of the german army can be traced back to Hitler being a moron.

I suppose that's a good thing because some of those hardliners were terrifying.

>>34654104
>After delivering all its warheads, the missile could then spend weeks flying over populated areas at low altitudes, causing tremendous ground damage with its shock wave. When it finally lost enough power to fly, and crash-landed, the engine would have a good chance of spewing deadly radiation for months to come.
Thats fucking mean.

>>34654350
ww1 validated poison gas is at best a manageable obstacle, with resources and logistics better spent elsewhere.

>>34673463
And inhaling tungusten dust isn't? Or any heavy metal particulates, for that matter?

mines dont kill children
nuh-uh
i kill children
with mines

Lets be honest here, if it wasn't for the Geneva convention or any convention limiting what weapons can be used against another human being then warfare would amount to who can dump as much chemical weapons on another as possible or can survive it etc.

Chemical weapons are brilliant, they kill humans and don't damage infrastructure so if your actively trying to occupy some land then its golden.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent)

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>>34660856

>>34676437
Tungsten tends not to fragment as much as Uranium. Uranium is hypergolic, burning at room temperature, and tends to shatter into sharper and sharper shards. Tungsten is so tough that it tends to bounce rather than shatter.

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>>34678770
>Tungsten is so tough that it tends to bounce rather

tungsten bouncing bombs when

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>>34653748
"Cause napalm sticks to kids!"

>>34673490
It would have just fucked Germany harder.

>>34679553
sweet naked loli~

>>34660651
he was run over after the guys in the car jumped out and ran

>>34660677
by overhearing racial slurs

>>34681581
Go away /b/

>>34673043

No, by definition all FAEs are thermobarics but it only applies one-way as all thermobarics are not FAEs.

>>34678795
As soon as we figure out an explosive that reliably breaks tungsten. It's a really tough metal.

>>34654082
Germany didn't follow the laws of warfare

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>>34653748

"War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over." -William T. Sherman

My thoughts on the matter

>>34666857
Economic sanctions, dummy.

>>34654350
Poison gas is a shit tier meme weapon.
Pretty much any munitions do more damage with better accuracy

>>34655636
Hollow points are only banned for those who signed the treaty. America didn't and are therefore not banned to issue hollowpoints

>>34655595

edgy

>>34682924
>>34655636


2 second google yields:

"US ratified the second (1907) Hague Convention IV-23"


How can people be ignorant in an age of easy access to information