>1942, eastern front >The infantry of Army Group Don is

>>34639622
No.

Germans could lose every war between 1000 and 3000 ad and theyd still be superior.
Im part german and i have a 140 iq. If you think my germanity had no part in my iq youre beyond all known scales of homosexuality.

small arms don't win wars

>>34639622
>still has the flanks on both sides of Stalingrad covered by Romanians, Hungarians, surrendered Russian units, etc
>these units still only have a few dozen obsolete tanks between them
>these units STILL only have a single cobbled together Panzer division covering them for the entire front

lmao

get encircled kid

>>34639804
http://b-ok.org/book/2594308/11a48d

Oh, and if you want to download the book that I'm getting this from - pretty decent stuff.

Decent book piracy site in general.

>>34639622
There is nothing that could of saved Germany. They lost before the war even really started.

>>34639622
couldn't hurt.

>>34639622
More Russians would die. Germans would still lose the city.

Pretty much all these "Would X have won Y if they had Z weapon" threads can be answered with no. Unless it is some extreme improvement like "Would Varrus's legions have won Teutoberg Forest if they had M4 carbines instead of gladii?"

>>34640213
if David bowie had an m60 we wouldn't have lost the alamo

>>34640378
See that seems way more extreme than StG44's at Stalingrad.

>>34640213
If the Germans had the StG44 from the start of the war in think it may have made some difference. Same thing if they had settled on a few decent tank designs by the war's start instead of having so many damned typically-Kraut experiments and prototypes.

>>34639684
>140 IQ
lol fucking brainlet, 141 IQ here

>Equip all infantry with automatic weapons
>Run out of ammunitions even faster

>>34639756
This is the only answer.

>>34639622
The only way a StG 44 could change the outcome of the war is that one "accidentally" emptied itself into Hitler, Gobbels, and Himmler.

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>>34639622
As soon as Hitler ok'd the invasion of the Soviet Union he lost the war. Every variable after that was just determining how many conscripts would die before Stalin crushed him. Germany just didn't have the capacity to fight that war.

>>34639756
Tell that to the Vietnamese.

>>34642788
No, he lost after declaring war on the US.

>>34642800

This.
Russia would have been utterly fucked without lend lease.

>>34642790
Hippies win wars?

>>34642800
In the grand scheme of things, the western front was a sideshow. Lend-lease stopped a little of the bleeding, but the Germans just didn't have the logistics to fight across Russia. Stalin being more than happy to grind his own people into soylent red rather than fold, there wasn't any way in hell that it wouldn't have eventually turned around on Germany.

>>34642805
>inb4 Vatnik thread derail
To trigger them we'll compare war zones.
>USSR
One front that was less than 1000 miles.
>USA
FOUR fronts (Africa, Italy, Europe, and Asia Pacific.) And thousands of square miles of ocean. If it were just the Reich vs the USSR Russia would have lost.

>>34642810

>Lend-lease stopped a little of the bleeding

Without lend lease, it was logistically impossible for Russia to even fight the war.

>>34640213
>More Russians would die. Germans would still lose the city.

Soo win-win?

>>34640213
>More Russians would die. Germans would still lose the city.
I still doubt that even this would happen.

Assuming it wouldn't be total coverage(then it would be a little bit insane), we're talking about a company or two here and there equipped with STG's. Russians had functionally the same setup with assault units(up to battalion level I believe) which only small arms were DP's and PPSH's. The actual advantages of assault rifle over SMG's doesn't really show when fighting in cities.

>>34639622
No but 500k more trucks would've won the war

>>34642992
And tens of millions more tons of oil

>>34639684

I'm 1/4 Jewish.

My IQ is 146.

>>34643035
Synthetic oil boi and if they had trucks they would take Baku quickly.

>>34643055
They struggled to fully supply their army historically while being 80% horse drawn and getting all the domestic and imported oil they could, if they suddenly have hundreds of thousands more trucks they need to invest a shit ton more in extremely costly coal liquefaction
>if they had trucks they would take Baku quickly
Takes a while to get it back up to full capacity, and then they need trains to bring the oil back to a refinery.

>>34639622
>>urban fighting in Stalingrad looms
The Hungarian and Romanian divisions to the north and south of the city are still undermanned and underequipped, they still get rolled over and the 6th army still gets surrounded.

>>34643076
I mean that's why blitzkrieg exists. You can argue that oil supply could be smaller if the front line never slowed down for the Russians to regroup and that by the time they run out of oil they would be fighting in Siberia.

German logistics relying on horses get fucked up even quicker.

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>>34639622
>The infantry of Army Group Don is fully equipped and trained with this new weapon
German industry wouldn't manage to produce them as fast as they were making other guns.
Also, germans had a small party of Mkb.42 on the Eastern Front
>urban fighting
A relatively small SMG>a long assault rifle.
>Would it affect the outcome?
No.

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>>34639622

Oh, look, it's one of these threads again.
>>34643466
This

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>>34639622
No, small arms don't make a difference. It's the machines that do.

>>34640430
>>34640430
They had a perfectly adequate tank in the Pz. IV. They could have just focused on improving Pz. IV instead of building fancy tanks with poorly thought out designs.

>>34640443
>>34643036
Online tests dont count faggots.
I scored 149 on one. Theyre inflated

>>34642785
Don't forget Goering and Bormann.

>>34643526
No, its not the machines that make the difference. Its the logistics.

>>34639622
Innacity, the burpgun would be a better choice. Reliable, decent penetration, quicker to build, high ROF, compact package and comparable capacity.

>>34642820
>>34642810
We sent the Russians over 1 million trucks and thousands upon thousands of tanks, planes, artillery pieces etc. Without US aide the Russian war effort would have been royally fucked. We sent them so much shit that at the end of war the Chinese Communists were being equipped with US artillery and killing the Nationalists with it because the Russians had so damn much of it they were giving it away.
Frankly we should have just let the Russians and the Germans murder one another. The Germans mired in a logistical nightmare in Russia and the Russians unable to counter attack with their shit equipment. Instead we set fucking Stalin up as the leader of a super power.

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>>34639622

Somewhat related:

Took concealed carry class over the weekend. Took it with a few new to guns students.

>nra certified instructor: the first assault rifle was the German "StG 43"
>"all modern assault rifles, AK47, M14, Galil go back to this rifle"
>"if the Germans had had this gun in 1939 they would have won the war"
>later says assault rifles are assault weapons
>i say not true, assault weapon made up term under 1994 ban and has nothing to do with full auto, assault rifles full auto etc
>he says glock 18 is an "assault pistol" because it fires full auto
>ithurts.jpg
>ask him wtf definition of assault pistol is
>says full auto
>tell him im going by US army engineers 70's definition of "assault rifle"
>tells me "settle down, if you know all this stuff why are you here?"
>"remember im the one who decides if you pass"
>later says "Class III license needed to own full auto"
>repeatedly praises .40 for its "stopping power"

>>34642788
Can't really blame the aspiring artist for that when the US was happy to depth charge their u-boats without a declaration.

>>34643464
that's a mkb-42.

length is basically the same between them by the way. biggest issue is ammo weight. 8mm kurz weighs essentially the same as 30-06. you need the schv cartridges for SSULT RIFLES TO be worthwhile desu.

>>34639829
H..how the fuck would you read it? On your computer screen? Printed out and stapled into a packet?!

>>34640378
It wouldn't have made a difference if Bowie had it, he was bedridden the whole time.
2017, the year some anon literally forgot the Alamo

>>34639684
Uhh, IQ is a social construct, shitlord.

>>34642788
When Hitler failed to isolate the USSR from the USA diplomatically, that's when he lost the war.

Without Lend Lease, the USSR gets pushed back past the Urals and Russia has no relevance in European conflicts or politics for the next century.

In the history that did happen, Germany needs two million 2.5 ton trucks, a few billion barrels of refined motor field and lubricants, and a few hundred factories on the Ford system.

New small arms don't make a difference except in even contests, and only a moron seeks an even contest.

>>34640443
>>34643036
>>34644954
>>34644466
I'm black and 1/4 jewish, I scored 156 iq on the test.

btw I attend MIT

>>34640378
I just had the mental image of Ziggy going full blown Rambo at the Alamo and I giggled like a little retarded girl for like half a minute.

My coworkers already think I'm weird. Shit.

>>34645111
What was he singing as he mowed down Santa Anna's men?

>>34645109
Kill yourself.

>>34639684
Kek, good read/10

>>34639684
LOL found the wehraboo faggot. Before ancient Rome went to Germany you were a bunch of retard barbarians

>muh lend lease
Daily reminder LL amounted to less than 10% of Soviet production.

>>34645111
>>34645200
>neato burrito

>>34639622

no because the eastern front was decided by tanks, aircraft, and their supply lines

want hitler to take moscow? build more tanks

>>34645230
that's racist mate

>>34639622
German soldiers at Stalingrad were literally starving to death

>>34645431
Same here. Jesus, it's almost three o clock and I still haven't had lunch. Fuck.

>>34645334
Post-war lies, the raw materials used to make 60% of finished war goods, including 90% of double base propellants and military explosives were furnished under lend lease. The steel in Soviet tanks was 60% American, the aluminum in Soviet aviation, and 95% of Soviet high octane motor fuel additive were American. Further, Lend Lease provided 70% of Soviet heavy and precision machine tools that were used to make the finished goods that the post war propaganda touted so highly.

And lend lease provided 95%+ of Soviet trucks, 85%+ of Soviet railroad locomotives, 30% of Soviet foodstuffs (including 70% of preserved military rations), and 80% of military boots including cold weather footwear.

Without US assistance, Soviet industry lacks the tools, base materials, or transport to supply the Red Army.

This is why America hated the USSR so fervently, not ideological conflict, though that existed, it was because we singlehandedly modernized the entire country, at our own expense, in the middle of one of the greatest wars in history, saving them from certain national death. and they thanked us by immediately using the industries we gave them to run rampant over our allies and play 45 years of nuclear brinksmanship in a cold war that cost a greater portion of the world's GPP than any war in history.

We had fantastic relations with the Russians before the Revolution and even in the inter war period, but we learned the hard way that we can never trust them again.

I am all for improving relations with Russia, but we can never trust them unless we hold a whip they cannot hope to match firmly in our hand.

>>34639622
>its another wehraboo makes "wat if x happnd guysh" thread

>>34645955
Gonna need a source for that.

>>34644466
>getting this booty blasted over an ancient meme
"I have 140 IQ" is older than 4chan you faggo

>>34646074
Later tonight, I'm phone posting

>>34645955
>This is why America hated the USSR so fervently

The rulers of JEWSA loved the USSR though
They hate Russia now for abandoning Communism and booted out their corrupt stooges

>>34640378
What a dumbass, David Bowie wasn't even born in the 19th century.

You dumbass.

>>34639622
>Army Group Don

They were down to 11 rounds per infantry man when they got to Stalingrad. They were resupplied in a day and a half but it started a chain of being going hand to mouth with ammo supplies.

Better logistics would of won Stalingrad.

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>>34645363

>>34640378
If David Bowie had an m60 Ozzy would have never pissed on the Alamo

>>34645279
Well the Greeks and the Romans stole everything from the African aliens flying in their pyramids so fuck you

>>34646464
We spent trillions of dollars and 40 years hoping for any pretext to exterminate them with all of the most efficient and creative weapons an effectively unlimited budget could buy.

There are plenty of conservatives who still worry about Russian connections because Russia = Evil is still a firm word association they can't let go of.

>>34646673
>Better logistics would've won.
Ftfy. Logistics wins wars. It's why the Navy is the most important branch and why the US can't be overtly invaded.

A half a million 2.5 ton trucks and a better supply of POL was Germany's only hope. Soldiers starved, froze, and were cut off because German logisticians were forced to choose motor fuel and ammo in front of food, cold weather gear, and reinforcements. Germany simply didn't have the industrial strength to maintain sufficient supply across those distances.

>>34645109
>156
brainlet

273 over here, I have ascended.

>>34642819
Can't agree 100%. Without the FoB in GB the U.S would have had a hard time building a logistical foothold in Europe.
Imagine defending convoys filled with all the US army has to offer, having to enter territory that is infested with the most advanced submarines. In addition to that, 38cm rounds from 16 barrels hail down and sink your ships from 10 miles away. By that scnerio it would have been a long war of attrition.
Hitler had to decide to either throw tons of men and material against the cliffs of Dover and take the risk of getting royally raped in the ass by fresh hordes of soviet arms produced peacefully behind the Ural, or to take Russia in a Blitz and reinforce Europe, while the Brits covered on their island.
Then Pearl harbor happened. I sometimes wonder why states commit suicide by honoring a call to arms against foes that obviously will fuck them up, either alone or in combination with present foes.

>>34644488
Word

>>34644566
that's bound to happen when US-flagged merchants are considered fair game for subs.

>>34642788
Not at all, Germany came very very close to puncturing Moscow as it was. However they misunderetimated the omnipotent soviet intel (The Red Orchestra) and the fact that they assumed Russia had developed roads when in fact they had to drive the mechanized force through Borat swampland. A number of German officers were also corrupt on that front, and were actively working for the Soviets.
If Otto Skorzeny's asessment is to be trusted...

>>34642807
Hippies lose wars

>>34648849
Go to bed George.

>>34648725
>German Navy
>Advanced
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

>>34649060
The German Navy was plenty advanced. It was also small, inexperienced, prone to spending huge amounts of resources on stupid projects, and slow to adapt tactics when countered. Also, they were primarily going up against the nation with the strongest naval tradition at the height of their naval power as well as the greatest industrial power of all time.

>>34644565
Most concealed carry certification class instructors that I've met only know the laws of concealed carry and a few have known about 80% receivers, weapons development or even reloading.

Just because they become certified to help someone get their concealed carry license, they seem to think they're gun experts.

>>34639756
Tell that to t-Rex's

>>34649096
When did the Germans fight China?

>>34646433
Still no source.

>>34644455
Bullshit. The Panzer IV was shit too

>>34649172

I mean I had heard the stories but this guy was a lawyer ffs.

>brings out some Ruger modular rifle he says he uses for target shooting
>takes a few minutes to figure out how to take bolt out
>literally takes 10 minutes trying to figure out how to put it back in
>have to help him get bolt back in his own rifle

Talking about serialized guns:

>"Well with AR-15's, you can buy all the parts but the receiver has to go through an FFL. I'm not sure how that works though, they must have to put a number on the lower or something."

This was after discussing Assault Rifle definition with him so I just kept my mouth shut.

With the other two students and my gf in class I also didn't want to come off as a total autist but there's just so much misinformation that I can sit through.

>>34645955
>a whip they cannot hope to match firmly in our hand
Russians and Germans are either at your feet or at your throat. If they seem neutral then they are only planning to lunge.

>>34644566
>our civvies get killed
>not an act of war
fucking eat shit werhaboo

>>34649299
Boxer rebellion

>>34649299
Nice one Wang.

>>34642788
Didn't help that German industry was getting bombed by the US and the Brits.

>>34642819
Agreed mostly. I wouldn't say it was 100%, but just 1 on 1 the Soviets would have had a fuckton more trouble.

>>34644543

>Frankly we should have just let the Russians and the Germans murder one another.

Instead we went to war. For Danzig. A city that wanted to be part of Germany anyway.

Imagine if the Brits and French realized what the next step was. They quietly back down and watch, maybe Germany covertly supports Finland during the Winter War while rapidly building up over the winter. With Finland still in the game Germany launches !Barbarossa in late spring 1940, sweeping through Russia, with German forces helping push the Soviets back from Finland as well.

The Allies wait patiently, quietly sliding support back and forth as they exhaust each other, then as the Soviets finally collapse and surrender France and Britain launch their invasion, sliding their cocks deep into Germany's anus and ending fascism and communism in one go.

>>34639622
If by 1941 you replaced all MP40's and Mausers with StG44's (snipers aside) you might see a change. Failing that, no. Assault Rifles are fantastic but in and of themselves they wouldn't change things that much. What they could've done, however, is allowed for simplification of logistics and manufacture. That may have been significant enough to take Stalingrad.

>>34639756
You have to step back and understand what it did on the battlefield. It was meant to make every rifleman a machinegunner. It made it so the Germans can continually push without having to stop to reload as often. Then when retreating instead of the mg42 covering the infantry than having no cover himself, the rifleman could do the same. It certainly would save lives and quite possibly destroy Russia. The Germans did get really far into Russia but they made mistakes. They should've attacked Moscow (where Stalin still was) instead of Leningrad. Also, the Russia air force was nearly non-existent but the Germans didn't have any strategic bombers to hit those factories deeper in Russia for what ever reason (probably has somthing to do with the Battle of Britain).

>>34645109
Stfu fucking subhuman nigger trash.
Go back to the cotton fields negro

>>34642881
Yes but it would replace only action rifles.

>>34642790
Forced meme? Anyway the Vietnamese and Russian tanks, and S.A.M.s

>>34644999
This and maybe how they treated the people of Russia.
AFAIR there was a very strong anti-commie sentiment in the people and they were willing to side with the nazis, until the nazis showed their true colours and started being worse than the commie scum.

All that being said, what if Poland didn't go full retardo and actually joined the axis? Would they make a difference enough to beat ruskies?

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>>34639848
What if they didn't fuck up at Dunkirk and slaughtered all ~400,000 British and French soldiers?

>>34640378
The m60 was the last peice he needed to complete the time machine the Starman taught him how to build.

>>34642790
>Tell them to get rid of all the migs, AAA and other heavy weapons the Russians gave them, they'll be fine.

>>34652604
That would be very sad those men didn't deserve to die. Germany should have went right at Russia instead of Western Europe

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>>34645955
>We had fantastic relations with the Russians before the Revolution and even in the inter war period, but we learned the hard way that we can never trust them again.

Thanks for the laugh, anon.
I assume this great love is why the US realized full support of the Japanese during the Russo-Jap war.
Why they made sure Russia and Germany could never hope to get their own colonies in China like everyone else did, despite sharing a border with them.
The intervention in the Civil War trying to keep the Eastern Front alive by fueling the white armies.

Yeah, truly BFF, 大好き, přátelský... relationship.
I am hardly fond of Russians, having a very bad history with their nation. But I dislike idiots who teach bullshit history on the internet even more.

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>>34645109
>1/4th Jewish
You mean.... Like a race?
Because I can assure you that's not how that works.

>>34639829
Thanks been looking for a good site like this

>>34652867

How could they? With France and Britain at war with them invading Russia would have been even stupider than it already was. France and Britain would have been able to bomb them constantly and rebuild their own forces, waiting for a moment of maximum vulnerability before crushing Germany with ease.

>>34651927

They didn't have strategic bombers because Milch insisted that ALL bombers be able to dive bomb, which you simply can't do with a reasonably designed strat bomber.

>>34652136

If the Poles joined and prevented Britain and France from declaring war then it would probably be enough to win the war.

>>34652604

Would have probably extended the war by 6-12 months or so, but the Soviets and Americans had the manpower to replace them once they got started.

Unless it made the Brits totally give up it wouldn't have changed the results.

>>34639622
The only thing that could've saved germany would be not invading russia. The moment operation barbarossa was launched was the moment germany lost the war.

No, because they're still going to get cut off from supplies and starve and freeze and run out of ammo to death.

>>34642790

Mortars are not small arms

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>>34639622
>Anonymous 07/23/17(Sun)22:08:57 No.34639622▶>>34639662 >>34639804 >>34639848 >>34639866 >>34640213 >>34642785 >>34642788 >>34642992 >>34643099 >>34643464 >>34643466 >>34643526 >>34644503 >>34644565 >>34645380 >>34645431 >>34646009 >>34646673 >>34651678 >>34656287
It'll make it worse for the Germans because the Kar98k bolt-action rifle is a superior weapon to any automatics due to it's longer bayonet reach, reliability, higher muzzle velocity, higher accuracy, and higher stopping power.

Autofags go home

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>>34659119
Instead, the Germans would have triumphed in Stalingrad and the war if they had kept using the G98 with its Seitengewehr bayonet.

>>34659119

furyroadthat'sbait.gif

>>34654010
>If the Poles joined and prevented Britain and France from declaring war then it would probably be enough to win the war.
There was a big book (as far as history books can be big) in Poland not long ago that dealt with this matter, but the author went a bit different (AFAIR): Poland joins axis, Germany goes West first, conquers France, isolates Britain (armistice? definitely no invasion), prepares properly and then goes against Russia. Axis win over Commies (Stalin doesn't evacuate from Moscow and gets decked or something), but the later period rolls pretty much like it did, with US involvement and invasion of Europe, with Poland doing what Italy did and remaining on the winning side.
But that's just a theory.

>and France from declaring war
Would Poland's romance with axis really do that, tho?

>>34661305

If the Krauts won in the East then there's no way an invasion of mainland Europe would be successful, and with the Brits out of the war the US isn't likely to intervene.

Britain and France declared war because they had guaranteed the independence of Poland, if Poland voluntarily joins Germany then there's no reason to go to war (and the people likely wouldn't feel like jumping in either, a lot of them didn't as-is).

>>34639622

They should have just surrounded Stalingrad and continued on towards Moscow.

>>34661376

wat

The forces in the south weren't going to Moscow. The chance to take Moscow was long over by then.

>>34661337
Sounds reasonable.
However: "Britain and France declared war because they had guaranteed the independence of Poland" - they only declared the war to wash their hands off. They literally did nothing to help Poland in any way.
>Brits out of the war
Germany had no real way of putting Britain out of the war completely, they were never able to invade it. Maybe if the air battles turned out differently than an armistice could be achieved, but an armistice isn't something than can not be broken.

The theory the book's author had was that Poland should've sided with the closest neighbour in order to defeat its biggest threat and not do what it did, which, lets be honest, wasn't the smartest fucking move.

>>34661391
not the 6th personally, I mean not have gotten bogged in a dick measuring contest on Stalingrad. Just surround and starve them and focus your might elsewhere

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>>34639662
>T. never looked at the common German Infantry arsenal Cia 1942.

>>34659119
Are you having a stroke?

>>34661504
>t. never looked at the common German Infantry rate of supply after encirclement in Stalingrad

>>34653367
Google it

>>34661436

There was plans, but the Germans advanced so quickly they called the plans off. It doesn't totally excuse them, but realistically getting troops to Poland wouldn't have been easy. Also the French DID launch the Saar offensive, they just called it off without being pushed back.

We can talk about how they could have marched to Berlin, but ultimately THEY didn't know about how weak Germany was in the West.

Re: Britain. First, you said that Britain was out of the war in the book he read, so reality is unimportant. Second, I disagree. Had the Germans placed a heavier emphasis on Condors and U-Boats in the leadup to the war they could have strangled British shipping early on. Doing that would have likely forced Britain to sue for peace. Remember that we're probably talking the first year of war here, before there's a truly entrenched feeling of "Fuck those guys we're gonna get revenge!" I think it's quite plausible that the shock of the Fall of France combined with the Germans cutting off shipping would push the Limeys to the table.

As for Poland, I don't necessarily disagree, but remember we're looking at it in hindsight. THEY were thinking that they have two powerful allies so all they have to do is hold off for a month or two for Britain and France to come to their aid, totally plausible in any other war.

>>34639622
I'm not usually one to suck Russia's dick, and Wehraboo sentiments aside, Russia had too much damn manpower and there was no way Stalin was going to allow a city with his name on it get taken. Either way he would just send hundreds of thousands of his own men into the meat grinder. In short, no Russia would win anyway