So I just became ''coach'' of a local shooting

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>>34623820
I'll keep bumping with some more pictures.

Pic related is what we call the ''rake'', it holds 180 targets: those black cubes. For matches, they're usually 10x10mm, although the first few rounds are on 15x15mm units. Each bar holds 36 targets, which is enough for 2 rounds of shooting (3 shots * 6 shooters = 18 shots).

Next up, the rifle and ammo.

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>>34623865
The rifle is a single shot, bolt action 12 gauge, with a really long barrel so you can properly rest it. The front of the modern ones (like pic related) is just a hollow tube, only two thirds is actually rifled. The last third of the barrel can be used to fit an integral suppressor. Most shooting ranges are at the edge of populated areas, so the sound reduction (~10Db) is welcome. Without a suppressor, they're only about 130 Db.

They use the basic globe and diopter sights off an Olympic-style airgun, which are really accurate once you know how to shoot them. At 16 meters, I can consistently hit the 5mm wooden stick holding up the black cubes. The rifle itself is well sub-MOA anyways.

They have an adjustable double set trigger. I've never measured one, but they're all well below 100 grams or just a few ounces.

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>>34623923
The ammo is also 12 gauge, but not your standard 2.5'' or 3'' fare. Each individual casing is turned on a lathe, and (practically speaking) reloaded forever - untill the chamber of the rifle wears out.

Total cartridge length is between 35 and 40mm, about 1 1/2 inches. Since we're shooting in the open (most of the time), there's stricht limits to bullet weight and velocity, which ensures that we don't need massive shooting ranges. Current weight limit is something like 40 grams (~600 grains), with a maximum of 230m/s muzzle velocity (about 750 fps). Each bullet/slug is hand-cast (pure lead), and each cartridge is reloaded by hand - because no factory makes ammo for these things, and even if they did, it wouldn't be accurate enough.

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>>34623961
And a picture of the biggest local match. Upwards of 150 teams, at least two day's worth of shooting - and we won't gt much farther than round 4 or 5.

Is there anyone on /k/ with training/coaching experience who could help? If not, I'll just let this thread die, hoping some of you saw some fun stuff.

Do you have a picture of just a firing station? It looks like a bench rest rifle sled.

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>>34624004
My first picture does have four sets for sleds. However, we only use them for ''civilians'' who will otherwise miss the shot trap modern installations have - which don't require a shooting range of 750-100meters, but just 25m.

Pic related is the usual setup - a single post with a piece of wood perpendicular to it. It's triangulated for stability. The guns have a very coars wood rasp under the stock (see: >>34623923), which you then use to stabilise the gun.

I'll try and find a picture of the sled setup, as well as one of the bullet traps.
I personally like the sleds better, because it's just a T-shaped profile with a sled running on it. You can easily clamp the rifle into a steady position by simply moving the rifle up or down, away from it's axis of travel.

This is the weirdest shooting sport I have ever seen... Is there a practical basis for it? Shooting rats off a roof?

>>34624044
old timey aa training?

>>34624044
Sieging castle fortifications?

It sounds like going through a lot of trouble to make shooting not bother the neighbours and then you shoot in a wild fucking arc?

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>>34624004
Best picture I could find of the sled setup. Again, T-shaped rail with a rolling block/sled that the gun is strapped to.

>>34624072
Probably defending them. I have a sneaky suspicion that our current guns are basically derivatives of the wall guns that were present in the exact period that schutterijen started.

Go watch the FW video on a Belgian wall gun, and you'll see an awful lot of similarities.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkW1Fsaxj-Y
Most wallguns were either British or Belgian, and a majority of the Belgian ones were all made in Liege, because Liege was the gun-capital of Belgium (still is, fuck yeah for FNH). Guess what, most of the modern gun smiths that still make these things either had an education in Liege, or have a family lineage tracing back to there.

>>34624044
>>34624058
Schutterijen (known as schützenvereine in Germany) started as local militias, protecting the church and village because cops weren't around back then.
Now, in each schutterij there is a ''King''. He was only King for a year, by virtue of shooting down a wooden block suspended in the air that looked vaguely like a bird. Every year, several members of the schutterij would go and shoot this bird, untill one of them become King. It was (and still is) quite an honor. If you manage it three times in a row, you'll get the honorary title of Caesar, which is a title (and rank) for life.
This eventually evolved into a shooting sport, where you have as tiny targets as possible.

Americans have a pretty wide variety of shooting sports, but probably none of them focus on shooting up. I have no experience even participating, but our precision rifle sports are stuff like highpower (shooting service calibers at distance from various positions), benchrest (the art of not touching the rifle when you shoot), and appleseed (fundamentals of marksmanship with full power rifles from various positions). As far as I know, most American shooting sports are competitions between individuals and not groups.

Of course, you're asking for coaching advice, which is at least partially leadership. If you want the team to win matches, you'll need to get the team members to internalise that goal. If some of them just want an excuse to touch a rifle, you'll have difficulty convincing them to improve. Granted, this is a translation from a time I accidentally ended up in charge of a team of 30 people that wanted to work as little as possible because they were not going to internallise the team's purpose.

Any actual shooting instructors are welcome to give their opinion.

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>>34624097
Actually, the arc had been carefully calculated.

In an ideal physics experiment with no air resitance (but with gravity), optimum launch angle is always 45 degrees.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_of_a_projectile
If you look at airguns, to get maximum range, you have to shoot at about 10-20 degrees off horizontal, because they're low velocity, with an almost flat bullet. Given the ogive you see in >>34623961, 10-20 degrees would be optimal for these guns too.

However, we don't want optimal, we want to decrease range. By going to well over 60 degrees off horizontal, range is minimised. You only need a 750 meter range at most, while 90% of all projectiles will fall at the 450meter mark. The extra 300 meters is just margin incame you have a strong tailwind at altitude.

We also have modern installations like pic related. This is a complete shot trap installation which mimics the regular setup. It uses a 25mm (~1 inch) thick sheet of clear bulletproof glass, angled heavily of course. The bullets won't even dent it - we've been using ours for almost a decade now.

Also consider the history side of it as explained in >>34624127.

For those of you questioning: WHY?

What it boils down to:
>1500 A.D.
>Local militia getting piss drunk
>''Betcha I can hit that bird with my crossbow''
>''Nah m8''
>''If I do, I get to be your King for a year and you have to do everything I say''
>''Go ahead, you won't hit anyways''
>TWANG
>''Fuck.''

Next year:
>''Being the King was fun. Know what, we'll do this every year. Stick a wooden bird up a tree, take turns shooting it, guy that brings it down is new King and buys us a keg.''
>''Brilliant idea M8''

100 years later
>'"Can I try with my musket?''

~250 years later
>''We got a new wall gun, let's try that''
>Wall gun guy wins

251 years later
>''Fuck you Karl, you wall gun is more accurate, we're all shooting that thing now''

~400 years later
>''This is getting boring, we need to shoot at smaller things''

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>>34624127
This is some genuinely neat stuff.

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>>34624267

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>>34623820
hey kraut bro question for you
what's the name for that traditional german trick shooting sport where you bounce bullets off water into a target by aiming at the reflection of the target in the water?

>>34624002
I coach and teach trap and skeet (Scholastic Trap, a high-school varsity sport, and am a cat B instructor/coach for the NSSA, National Skeet Shooting Association).

I have no fucking idea what ya'll are doing, looks boring as fuck.

>>34624285
I'm Dutch actually.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasserscheibenschie%C3%9Fen

I don't understand at all, so I can't give advice about the shooting portion, but I am a project manager and dealing with teams is what I do. The key to building a team is at the relationship level. If you can get the team to gel and support each other they take on the sense of shooting, not just for themselves but for the team. This will make them want to get better and support the overall group. What ive done that's helped is to try some team building stuff. Go out for drinks after shooting, golf together, whatever is most appropriate. This way the people on the team will get to know/like each other and want to support each other. If they are a weaker shooter, they will want to get better to not let the team down.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.

>>34624307
holy shit thanks
I've been asking around for months and no ones had a clue about what I was asking
I thought I was going crazy,

Also your 12ga kurz shells are neat, reminds me of aguila minislugs

>>34623820
>Has anyone on /k/ ever done some coaching?
I don't know how water polo will translate to shooting sports but here goes.

First of all, set realistic goals that the teams can reach. If winning local championships is exactly that, great! If that is a bit bigger than what you can chew then set a goal of winning x ammount of matches. Don't be overzealous with the ambition to the point where it makes the sport a drag. Remember, almost all sports are recreational activities people do for fun.

Second, really fletch out how you train. Spending a day at the range is great and all, but you need to keep in mind how that training is actually going to affect performance. All of your shooters have the basic fundamentals down for the most part, right? Then encourage competition among them. Have your teams compete against one another in a mock match at the tail end of practice. This will do to things, seed that competitive mindset needed to win and give you a good chance to evaluate performance outside of an actual event. The reward for winning? Loser has to buy the first round. In water polo we did this with gorilla ball. Essentially you have three two man teams in the pool beating the shit out of each other for the ball in an attempt to get a shot on that goal.

Third, encourage the team to hang out outside of the competition. Have a couple beers or whatever. That will build the friendship and trust that makes a team more efficient.

Coaching is more of an art then it is a science. What works for one group may not work for another.

>>34624184
>internalise a goal
Pretty hard to do when your team is just trying to survive the first round, but I'm trying.

>>34624305
>looks boring as fuck.
About as interesting as Olympic airgun match can be when you've got a steady stream of beer coming your way.

>>34624323
>team building
We're already a team, by virtue of being in the same schutterij. besides shooting, there's music competition, and a lot of social interaction, so we're mostly on the same level there.

>carry the weakest link
Problem is that each individual shotoer does not have the capabilities to shoot 20 rounds without missing. It's certainly not a point of attitude or commitment.

>>34624363
>Achievable goals
Check. All of the other teams have similar budgets, talent pools, guns, and practice time/ammo.
We've been succesfull on a county level, I just want to bring that to success on a state level.

>training
I'll look into that. Right now we're just doing regular shooting every single time.

>team building
See above. We've got our own club bar that we meet at every single week (band practice), so there's a team - just not enough strong individuals to shine at a state level.

>>34624341
I wonder if they'll cycle in a MAG-7...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW7k8WHS2Go

>>34624468
>just trying to survive the first round
>attitude or commitment
The point is that each individual on the team won't bother trying to get better unless you get each of them on board with the idea first. They need to personally want the capability to perform, and part of the job of a coach is to make sure they do. How exactly you do this is culturally sensitive, so giving specific advice based on experience in America won't help you that much. Communicating your vision is a good start, though.

>>34624720
There's commitment to the team, just not... drive I guess? The team is aiming at trying to get by, at not missing in the first few rounds, at ''doing their best'', but there's probably a lot more they can do, and I want them to achieve that.

>communicating vision
How? Just straight up tell them I want them to win the big matches? That'll just get them nervous as fuck.

>>34624784
Communicating your belief that they can do better.

I don't really have much to add here. Lots of good advice. I find these obscure shooting sports fascinating. Please post more pics.

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>>34624898
Final bump, I'll be back tomorrow.

>Pic is the vaguely bird-shaped wooden block that's used for the King's shooting

>>34624898
Also, if you google ''schutterijen'' you'll find more pics. I'll explain them later when I'm back.

>>34625027
Bump

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Neat thread I guess Deutshbro is sleeping. I have no idea how to give advice for this sport, I'm out of my element

>>34623820
This is so weird, I'm having a difficult time comprehending what I'm seeing. Seems neat though.

>>34626013
Dutchbro here, it's only 10 p.m. here. I'm just drinking a lot at the 25th anniversary of my aunt and uncle is all.
Any team shooting advice in general is welcome. I'm especially interested in how I can make practice sessions more useful.

>>34626101
Post your questions, I'll try to elaborate when I sober up in a few hours. Basically, we're shooting at tiny wooden cubes suspended up in the air using a specialised target gun. And drinking.

Did I mention that drinking some beer is a vital part of this?

>>34623820
>>34623865
>>34623923
>>34623961
>>34624002
>>34624034
>>34624127

All I got from this is what you're using a reduced power 12ga shotgun to shoot a heap of tiny targets from a distance.

What de fug.

>>34626706
Not a shotgun, it's completely rifled.

Ask questions, and I'll try and explain more.

Why are the targets so high up in the air? Does your neck get stiff? Why have a gun so heavy you need that stand thing to support it?

Is the event timed?

>>34624267
This is proper, well done tl;dr

>>34623820
whats the sport called?

>>34624267
It all make sense now...

>>34624002
I live in Maasmechelen and there was a huge gathering in 2016 next to my backyard, looks a bit goofy, but I love the traditional aspect of it. I guess I will try it someday since Im a regular fudd here in Limburg ;)

How tight are tolerances on ammo? I know nothing of the sport but repeatability is key as you have described a long torturous event in some cases.

How good of shape is everyone in? It might sound kinda silly in a stationary shooting sport, but raw physical endurance and strength would seem to play a big role.

How often is your team doing very very very long courses of fire that are above anything required in a match to build the concentration endurance needed in such a sport?

How often if ever do you purposefully introduce distractions to shake their shit up to get them to build focus? Fire crackers, water guns etc work great.

Also combining long forced concentration with distractions can get results.

Id suggest also shooting in adverse conditions and getting your guys hooked up on the physics of how wind temperature and angles affect them and their shooting and derive a methodology to help them be able to hit anything in any condition.

Are wallguns a personal item where better sights that still fall within the rules might help? Maybe prescription checks on shooters?

Anyway, have a great day.

How expensive is this to do?

>>34623820

I've done this.

Visiting relatives in Belgium. It is good fun and surprisingly technical. Some old fucks there were like shooting machines.

They had a monster drinking and barbecue session at the end of it.

Great fun... and surprisingly no Fudd types. Just people who enjoyed shooting and drinking beer.

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Dutchbro here, I'm back.

>>34627139
>Why are the targets so high up in the air?
Because the sport is derived from ''vogelschieten'', which is shooting those fake wooden birds (>>34624971). Each schutterij still does vogelschieten every year to find out who's King for that year.
It was already vogelschieten back in the 15th century, were they used crossbows and muskets. Later, they started used specialised wall guns as well, and it all evolved into the modern shooting sport, with the modern guns.

>Why have a gun so heavy you need that stand thing to support it?
The stands were already used by the time we had muskets - well before we had this modern generation of guns, which started in the late 19th century.
The modern guns are this heavy because they're dedicated target rifles, it helps with recoil and stability.

>Does your neck get stiff?
Nope. The angle between your head and the rest of your body is actually identical to laying prone with a rifle.

>Is the event timed?
Not really, you get 45 minutes to shoot two rounds (36 cubes). I've never, ever seen a team time out.

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>>34627769
>whats the sport called?
Limburgs traditional shooting.

Pic related, one of the modern schutterijen.

>>34628189
Maasmechelen organised the OLS in 2016: the Oud Limburgs Schuttersfeest.

The OLS is the biggest match there is in Limburg, with a parade, music competition, drill exercises etc. etc. The most important match is the shooting match, which has between 150 and 160 teams competing. All but one team have to be eliminated, which takes quite some time - the first part of the match is on sunday, and shotoers have to return next saturday if they're still in the race. The winner of the shooting competition has to organise the entire OLS next year.

In 2017, we managed to get into the top 50, which is quite good.

>>34630204
Not really expensive, only 40 euros a year to be a member of the schutterij.

However, ammo is around 40 cents a round, so the schutterij has to make money in some other ways. Most schutterijen do this by organising a bondssfeest every 4-5 years, which is their revenue source. Bondsfeesten are events were several schutterijen (usually ~20) compete in a parade, and then in seperate music matches etc. The core of a bondsfeest is the shooting, and we've won there several times last season.
Bondsfeesten are usually visited by quite a lot of ''civilians'', which makes for quite a bit of revenue. Last time we had one, we sold something like 4500L of beer in three days.

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>>34632485
Forgot picture: one schutterij standing next to a tent on a bondfeest.

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>>34628412
>How tight are tolerances on ammo?
We reload our own ammo, and we cast our own bullets. For matches, I usually make sure that my powder loads are within 0.10 grams, and the projectiles too. If you put the gun on a benchrest, you'll get a 2-3mm group (center to center) at 15m.

>How good of shape is everyone in?
Bad to mediocre, but so's the competition. Physical endurance and strength are irrelevant, since most of the weight of the weight is supported by the rest, and you're only doing three shots at a time.

>How often is your team doing very very very long courses of fire that are above anything required in a match to build the concentration endurance needed in such a sport?
Not really, since I have to train several teams with only one gun. Training more then 4 rounds required a training session more than 2 hours long, which is too much. I guess I could try seperating those teams, so that I'm training 6 shooters at a time, and doing at least 8-10 rounds every training session. That, or instead of 3 shots every round, I could try doing 6 or 9.

>How often if ever do you purposefully introduce distractions to shake their shit up to get them to build focus?
We usually do drumming practice as well, which is quite noisy. We usually also have loud music, and there's lots of banter.

>Id suggest also shooting in adverse conditions
Wind isn't really a factor. Muzzle velocity is 200m/s, so it only takes about 80 milliseconds between pulling the bullet exiting the barrel and hitting the targer. Temperature and distance is relevant though, but as a coach I zero the weapon every single match, which means it's dead on for those conditions. The only difference is light, because light from different directions distorts your sight picture, and your target picture. I plan on playing with some artifical lighting to really mess with them.
1/2

Pic related is another bondsfeest.

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>>34628412
>Are wallguns a personal item where better sights that still fall within the rules might help?
Sights are strictly defined: they have to be globe and diopters sights like the ones used in 10m airgun shooting (pic related). Any optics are strictly prohibited. Really old guns just used a V-notch and a blade.

>>34630334
The old guys tend to be really good untill their eyes start going bad. Then again, my granddad is 80, and he'll still hit 99% of the targets if he's got his good set of glasses.

Drinking and comradery is a large part of the schutterijen, which makes it so much fun.

There really aren't any fudds - although there is very little knowledge about the guns, their construction, and the laws that dictate how they should be transported/stored etc.

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>>34632596
Our sight picture looks mostly like A in pic related. If you want to know more about globe and diopter sighting systems, check out:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/06/foghorn/ask-foghorn-competition-iron-sights/

We use a Hammerli system, which is adjustable to around half a millimeter on target.

Final bump before I let her die.