Can we please talk about greatswords? (claymores, zweihander,

Where to get this tactical clothing?

It depends on the time period.

Greatswords were used to, in some instances (just not as often as people assume) to rake pikes or spears aside. They were used sort of as polearms in and of themselves. They could handle better armor than regular swords. I mean, you could get pretty particular about it.

And apparently, the Claymore is actually not considered a Greatsword. At least not all of them, because they were originally shorter.

>>34585770
k is for guns only newfag
>>>pol

>>34585770
Greatswords were basically the extreme end of the evolution of the longsword into a "primary" weapon. They were big enough that they were no longer carried in a scabbard, they were carried over the shoulder like a polearm, because that's effectively what they were. They were good for when you needed someone to really fuck shit up; if you want a pike formation disrupted, a breach defended, an officer or other important person protected, or a choke point like a bridge. Later they became used mainly as ceremonial weapons.

Your picture is a fairly accurate depiction of a Zweihander user, particularly that he has the best looking mask in the game, and he has become unstoppable.

>>34585862
It's for weapons and military equipment

>>34585770
They were used depending on the situation.

In pike and shot battles, they were used to knock pikes out of the way and push forward. These men were usually paid double because their job was more dangerous. These greatsword wielders were also used to defend choke points like bridges or gates and constantly make large sweeping motions with their sword. In a duel or 1v1 situation, these could be used like a spear or used to cut.

They were almost exclusively battlefield weapons and carried on baggage trains or the shoulder. They had their uses and the German Landsknechts were a big user of them. But the Portuguese and Italians used them too.

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>>34585862
who is the new fag now?

Go to /his/ and you MIGHT get an answer that isn't parroting Lindybeige the archeology undergraduate.

>>34586434
>In pike and shot battles, they were used to knock pikes out of the way and push forward.
This either never happened or never worked.

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Knocking pikes aside (an "evolution" of the chop pikes apart hypothesis) is suggested quite often, but to the best of my knowledge we lack any period sources telling or showing us this. We may occasionally see them in artwork getting to work in between when pike units fight, but we also see single handed swords, halberds and so on there, and none of them actively pushing a bunch of pikes aside. It'd instead simply seem to be the various shorter-than-pike weapons being brought in to fight at less-than-pike distance.

I can't be arsed to dig it up, too tired (the curious can scour Wiktenauer), but what we do have is (at least) one old manuscript telling us instead that they are good at fending off superior numbers. IIRC the main part about that being large swings making for a lot of space around you that people do not want to be in. This would suggest them being popular with banner guards, body guards, etc, and I think I have a vague memory of there being sources supporting that. Town guards may have fancied them too.

It should also be pointed out that this is for the larger twohanders primarily. The highland greatsword (the one you call claymore) for example is a much smaller thing. Still requiring two hand most likely though. Given that we see some pretty damn large swords in some longsword manuals, and often no real reliance on single handed use, I'd suspect that a slightly modified variant of many longsword styles would suit such weapons, and at least in some cases that it's what was used as well.

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>>34585770
As I've often heard it, it was mostly, depending on the unit/era, used for mounted combat. The weight of the weapon was used for a wide sort of polo-swing to generate force, and it was effective in that way. Looking around, I can't find immediate evidence of something like this, but I remember reading this a lot previously and it made sense to me. I believe it was more typical with the Zweihänder types, which Wikipedia describes as having "the characteristics of a polearm rather than a sword".

As said, the most famous users of them, the Landsknechts, used them primarily to bat away pikes to break enemy formations, and also to guard their standard bearer. It was deemed a good weapon for few people to go against many with.

As for method of carriage, it varied by user and blade. Claymores often had them, and there were conflicting depictions of the Landsknechts with either long scabbards or just carrying them. The Zweihänder was generally said to be carried over the shoulder like a halberd, so yes, like Dark Souls. The Ōdachi/Nodachi of Japan, effectively a very large katana, had a lot of variety. It was, at one point, predominantly held in-scabbard across the back, just like your Japanese animes. However, this was deemed to slow at times, so the scabbard was carried by hand, or various schools of combat attempted to figure out ways to speed up the draw. Some allegedly even carried it on the waist.

>tl;dr: Varying purposes across cultures. Generally anti-pike/anti-formation or small unit infantry sword uses, but rarer. Carried differently by type, most often no scabbard across shoulder, sometimes with scabbard.

>>34585770
Most likely carried by an attendant.

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>>34586766
The larger twohanders, like the "lansknecht zweihander", were purely infantry weapons. The greatswords that'd see cavalry use would rather be those on the mid to smaller end of the early ones, sitting around longsword size (and with blades sometimes matched by the larger single handed swords). At that point single handed use becomes realistic for some things, such as a large cleaving blow as you ride past someone.

>>34586766
>used them primarily to bat away pikes to break enemy formations,
But that is wrong you fucking moron. Why you idiots keep repeating this meme?

>>34586848
From Wikipedia on Landsknecht:

>Weapons

>Landsknechts were trained in the use of the famous long pikes and used the pike square formations developed by the Swiss. The majority of Landsknechts would use pikes, but others, meant to provide tactical assistance to the pikemen, accordingly used different weapons. For example, an experienced Landsknecht could be designated a Doppelsöldner, an armoured soldier who served as the backbone for the formation (and was paid double for it) and in addition to the pike as more recent recruits, they could also be alternatively employed wielding a 6-to-8-foot-long (1.8 to 2.4 m) halberd or partisan, or, more famously, a Zweihänder (literally: "Two-hander"), a two-handed sword as long as 180 cm (6 ft).[7] These great war swords could be used to knock the pikes aside, creating disorder among the tightly-arranged enemy pikemen in order to break through their lines. Other Doppelsöldner were armed with an early matchlock firearm called an arquebus or crossbow would lay ranged fire support by the flanks of the pike square.[8]

Yeah, it's Wikipedia, but they were the most famous western users of greatswords, well-known in the era of pike and shot, and that seems to be the general consensus on their tactics. What do you think they were used for instead? Just fighting?

>>34586824
Thanks for that, that clears it up for me. I think I was a little confused about all that, I remembered something like that and just got mixed up. Makes sense.

>>34586691
>It'd instead simply seem to be the various shorter-than-pike weapons being brought in to fight at less-than-pike distance.
And the greatsword would in this case be better suited for fighting a variety of enemies and especially several enemies at once than the halberd or the sword and shield combination. Maybe the "pushing away" of the pikes is really how people who didn't experience this kind of combat tried to explain it. Intact pike formation are hard to attack in melee, but disordered or by firepower weakened ones would show gaps that could be attacked and widened by greatsword users. (There's the german term "gassenhauer" "alley-hewer" but I don't know wether that's from the period).
Of course, attacking pikes in melee was quickly superseded by attacking them with firepower only, so greatswords weren't in use for this very long.
They were also used in some special roles, but I don't think I ever heard of them being used by town guards. These would usually carry halberds or spears - no idea wether fighting with a greatsword in an alley is that much worse, wether they were just too expensive to train and equip, wether it was impractical or some other reason.

>>34586766
The longer a sword is, the less possible it is to draw from the back. How long is your arm? That's how long a sword can be when drawn from a scabbard on the back.

Nodachi were carried in your obi.

>>34586908
>and that seems to be the general consensus on their tactics
Thats by no means the general consesus on their tactics!

This is >>34586691
>I can't be arsed to dig it up, too tired (the curious can scour Wiktenauer), but what we do have is (at least) one old manuscript telling us instead that they are good at fending off superior numbers. IIRC the main part about that being large swings making for a lot of space around you that people do not want to be in. This would suggest them being popular with banner guards, body guards, etc, and I think I have a vague memory of there being sources supporting that. Town guards may have fancied them too.

>>34586908
Trust me on that, Wikipedia has just taken in an outdated Victorian era theory on the matter. Current research shows that they did not take on pike squares, but where used in the aforementioned fashion at protecting high value targets.

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>>34586908
Following Wikipedia's source link we get a book talking of "cutting down pikes" which makes me a bit suspicious. Doesn't point to any primary sources straight up either, just modern texts.

>>34586927
While nodachi wouldn't have been drawn from the back due to the arm length issue, they do appear to have been carried in that way on occasion.

>>34586910
With pole flails supposedly being somewhat popular with town guards, I'd guess cost was the issue if they stayed away form zweihanders.

>>34586578
You for not recognozing clear b8

>>34586999
>>34587019
Yeah, I had said that earlier and that was the next bit after that (About protecting the standard bearer/chokepoints and the like). Makes as much sense, odd to me that that's become such a predominant fiction if it weren't true, especially with the fame of the Landsknechts as a combat unit. It sounds more defensive than a combat weapon, at that point.

>>34587047
Fair, I was going to check the source and jumped the gun. Fucking Wikipedia sometimes. I definitely trust Wiktenauer more if the stuff's on there, though.

>>34586927
>>34587047
Yeah, that's what I've read. It was occasionally carried on-back, but my best guess was that was more a "cargo" carry sort of thing than combat. And the other methods were what it was immediately met with; it was too difficult to draw, so they started carrying it on the waist or just by hand and coming up with different ways to use them to compensate.

Found a quote on things, not the one I was thinking of though, but saying much the same.

“If a man is compelled to defend his life, and to ensure that he is able to secure his person without having regard for anyone else. For this purpose, it is good, for for clearing space [in a crowd].”xii

"It" being a montante, ie a greatsword. This quote also points to it being less desirable for fighting in close formation (as we may also have guessed due to formations favouring the pike instead).

Díaz de Viedma, Luis, Metodo de enseñanza
[sic] demaestros en la ciencia filosofica de la
verdaderadestreza matematica de la [sic] armas,
Barcelona, 1639.

http://livrozilla.com/doc/1616957/memorial-of-the-practice-of-the-montante

>>34587067
>odd to me that that's become such a predominant fiction if it weren't true

A single bad source that is readily available will sadly often spread nonsense far and wide as people can't be arsed to check primary sources.

>I definitely trust Wiktenauer more if the stuff's on there, though.

Considering that the primary sources is their bread and butter, they do have a leg up on wikipedia.

>>34587047
>>34587067
Yeah, they were often drawn with two hands. Draw half way, grab half-way down blade, draw and pass back into main hand.

>>34585779
Google slash-n-puff.

>>34585982
but what rings does he got?

Quick question about this whole impossibility to draw from the back thing. wouldn't it be possible to cut a section out of the scabbard at say about 3/4 of your arms draw length, to the general taper of the sword. As unless this is a executioners sword it'll have at least a slight taper the further down it goes, then maybe reinforce the cut out section with like sheet metal or just make the entire scabbard out of a harder wood like hickory or something less prone to splitting or cracking when made thin?

>>34585862
You're the newfag, have you ever even seen a dragon dildo before?

>>34585770
>Exactly how were these things utilized and used for combat?
You grabbed it by the handle and swung it around

>Were they useful?
If you wanted to kill a man, yes

>How the fuck were they carried around?
I just told you, OP, it had a handle

>>34588552
I thought something like that was a foregone conclusion. A cutout to let you get the rest out safely.

swords r for fags. Real operators use hallberd

>>34589158
>>34588552
didn't they do that in the a shadow of mordor game?

>>34588552
Sure you could cut out a section of the scabbard, but now you no longer have the main purpose of the scabbard - the blade is no longer protected by the elements.

>>34585862

Make like a nigger and neck yourself.

>>34590076
that's not what a scabbard is mainly for

>>34586434
>They were almost exclusively battlefield weapons
Not at all, they were vastly used by bodyguards and defending/guarding stuff like bridges and town gates.

>>34585770
>claymore
Yeah, no.
http://www.encasedinsteel.co.uk/2015/02/06/what-is-a-claymore/

>>34585849
>It depends on the time period.

This.

I watched a demo for the Montante showing it as a "two person" weapon with the second guy holding the back of the belt of the one using the Montante. The Montante, because of the weight, is continually cutting or otherwise moving with the second guy sort of directing.

But that's probably not a typical use for the type of weapon.

>>34585770
>how were they utilized
The greatsword was used by German and Swiss mercenaries to rush at pike formations like madmen to try and break the slow tedium of 16th century infantry combat. Two-handers for double pay.
Think of them as defensive offense weapons. They were long and double-edged with huge guards but used to break up defenses. If you were going to run into a mass of 18 foot spears then you'd want a weapon that gave you a lot of defensive power too.
>were they useful?
They were used for around half a century, so I'd say yes. This was when pike and shot tactics (lines and later squares of pikemen supporting wings of arquebusiers) were taking hold (except in France because of muh heavy cavalry), so if the greatsword stuck around as long as it did then it did its job.
>how were they carried?
As shown in the picture. You'd carry one as you would a pole weapon.

>>34586598
>shilling for his

Get out

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>>34590076
Make this section wide and lined with furs inside.

>>34592756
The greatsword was quickly displaced by halberds and halberds were in turn displaced in their battlefield roles by more pikemen, so no, their history suggests that other weapons did their job better.

Double pay by the way was not unique to greatsworders. Any infantry more specialized than a pikeman received double pay, including crossbowers and harquebusiers.

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>>34592756
This sounds a lot like the "swat pikes aside" bit above, only far less specific about how things were done. The issue of not having primary sources backing this seems to remain.

>>34594111
>The greatsword was quickly displaced by halberds and halberds were in turn displaced in their battlefield roles by more pikemen,

The greatsword in question here is something that came into being around the very end, or somewhat after, of the pike's rise to supremacy. It never served in the role that the pike pushed assorted other polearms out of, ie being the main infantry melee weapon.

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>>34585770
>Exactly how were these things utilized and used for combat? Were they useful?

Dark Souls

>>34594637
Swatting pikes aside is what they were for, dopplesoldners were paid double because they're job was dangerous as fuck, stand in your block's pikes, out front, and knock enemy pikes to the sides, up, or down, to give your pike block the advantage in a push.


It wasn't very common, and the guys who doing it literally got paid double, thus the title, and honestly boar's snout-style pushes weren't that common in the first place, because by that point artillery and arquebusiers/musketeers were doing the hard work, pike were mostly for warding off cavalry charges to the flanks. That's why the tercio was such a solid period formation.

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>>34595799
Knocking pikes aside (an "evolution" of the chop pikes apart hypothesis) is suggested quite often, but to the best of my knowledge we lack any period sources telling or showing us this. We may occasionally see them in artwork getting to work in between when pike units fight, but we also see single handed swords, halberds and so on there, and none of them actively pushing a bunch of pikes aside. It'd instead simply seem to be the various shorter-than-pike weapons being brought in to fight at less-than-pike distance.

What we do have is people telling us that these swords are good at clearing space and keeping crowds at bay. For example:

“If a man is compelled to defend his life, and to ensure that he is able to secure his person without having regard for anyone else. For this purpose, [the greatsword] is good, for for clearing space [in a crowd].

Díaz de Viedma, Luis, Metodo de enseñanza [sic] demaestros en la ciencia filosofica de la verdaderadestreza matematica de la [sic] armas, Barcelona, 1639