If someone assaults you with pepper spray (a non-lethal non-deadly

>>34576532
>is it illegal to use deadly force to protect yourself?
no

>>34576532
what kind of weapon an attacker is using is irrelevant. The standard is that lethal force is justified when there is an *immediate* threat of grave physical harm that could result in loss of life or permanent disability.

You do that to a cop, they're trained to draw.

>>34576557
But pepper spray can't cause grave physical harm that could result in loss of life or permanent disability. Also it isn't a weapon

>>34576635
pepper spray by itself can't, sure. But an attacker could easily use it and then follow up with lethal force while you're distracted. And yes, pepper spray/mace is most certainly a weapon.

>>34576635
Actually

>In 1995, the Los Angeles Times reported at least 61deathsassociated with police use ofpepper spraysince 1990 in the USA. The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) documented 27 people in police custody whodiedafter exposure topepper sprayin California since 1993.

Ex-copbro here:

First off, it depends on your state.

In most non-commie shithole states:

You could use deadly force if you are peppersprayed because you have no idea what they plan to do to you once the spray takes full effect and you are possibly unable to defend yourself. You can be in reasonable fear for your life, if a stranger pepper sprays you for seemingly no reason other than he wants to rob, or hurt you.

>>34576635
Google "death by pepper spray" you'll find plenty of documented cases of death as the result of being sprayed

>>34576532
Just carry around a can of over cleaner.

>>34576752
Why are you an ex-cop? I'm looking into becoming a criminal investigator, and like hearing everyone's stories.

>>34576532
it's a shame she hates america.
i mean i'd still do it to her, but i'd feel bad about it.

>>34576532
I always wanted to go to the range and get sprayed and then see what i can hit at 100 yards.

Ive been in alot of painful situations but never sprayed with pepper spray.

>>34576824
I took a job for a short time at a very shit department. It was sketchy as hell and my gut said "LEAVE",so I left. A year later I find out that the state took away their ability to arrest without a State Trooper present because the Chief (Who I liked, but he gave me a weird feeling.) had been playing God with people he pulled over and/or arrested. My Sergeant was sort of in on it but didn't do it to the same degree.

But the fucking Texas Rangers came down ( 2 months after I left) and investigated them. The department was then symbolically castrated because the Chief was a dick that liked to let his friends go but arrest people he disliked for the tiniest arrestable offense.

So, it hurt my career quite a bit to leave in the same year I took a job, but it would have killed my career to have stayed and been part of that department.

So now I'm finishing college. I'm still young, soI had time to go back home and sit through a bunch of bullshit classes for a few years.

>>34576532
There is no such thing as non-lethal.

Only less-lethal.

>>34576880
Do you think you'll continue or are you looking into something else?

>>34576635
Wrong

>>34576532
im going to shoot you if you try and attack me with anything more deadly that a down pillow

>>34576905
With my degree I can go to my local department now. I was in line for the job last year and got to the last part of the selection process, but was turned down. I have a friend in their recruiting department that keeps telling me to come back.

Then I have two Sheriff's offices where I know people and I could go work, but I'd have to start as an Adult Babysitter in the jail and work my way up, which would be valuable experience, don't get me wrong. I sort of think I should go be a jailer because it teaches you a lot. (hint hint.)

I could potentially get in with the DoE as a courier or nuclear facility guard.


I could apply for federal/state positions.

So I'm about to have a bunch of choices. And I'm dead set on doing some form of Law Enforcement until I know for a fact that I will or will not do it for my entire career. But we'll see!

Seeing as being pepper sprayed can disable you enough that an able bodied attacker can essentially make you their bitch, any barehanded or blunt/sharp weapon based method of murdering you is now waaaaaaayyy easier, I'd say that if someone is reasonably appear to want to beat, bludgeon, or stab you to death and you are partially incapicitated by pepper spray, yes it would be justifiable.

Just my thoughts, not legal advice obviously.

>>34576635
But you don't know their intentions after you've been sprayed.

>>34576532

Pull out your own non lethal means, battle each other.

>>34576965
Yeah, criminal investigator is the way to go for me. All the men in my family have either been law enforcement or military, and I'd like to continue that pattern. I'd have to be in patrol for three years prior to applying, but I think it'd be worth it. Considering I'm in a large city (Denver, CO), I don't think I'd have to worry about what happened in your department, but I could be wrong.

Not super well versed in this but what are you going to say to a prosecutor?


You were pepper-sprayed and couldn't see and didn't know what was going to happen next?

Also it matters where this happens-- on the street at night
So you fired your weapon in a public place and couldn't see? Are you really a responsible gun owner or were you just itching to shoot?

at your house?
You probably will get a lot more lee-way.

I don't know the answer it is interesting.

If you could see, then perhaps you had other options than firing your weapon.

File: 1485401139929.jpg (74KB, 625x468px) Image search: [Google]

74KB, 625x468px

>>34576557
This.

If someone so much as slaps you then you're well within your right to draw and mag dump. People really don't understand how easy it is to be killed here in the U.S. and it's a reason I'm a stronger believer that if every law abiding citizen had a gun this country would be a much safer place. You would tend not to start shit if you knew the other person had a gun and everyone around him had a gun.

However you're rolling the dice on getting a good jury, but what you did would be justified.

>>34576532
if you think your life in in danger yes

>>34577113
you don't know an assailants intentions after being punched either, but unless there is some grave disparity in physical strength (an old woman could get away with shooting a young linebacker for example), you cannot use lethal force in that situation either

>>34576752
>cop
>ex-cop
>giving legal advice

cops give the worst legal advice and they are not licensed or qualified to dispense such advice

>>34577520
I don't think you can shoot someone for being slapped. I'd hope you aren't thinking that or telling other people that.

Forget the human carnage that would create. You'd send a lot of people to jail under an ill thought out legal theory.

Slapping simply doesn't rise to that level that would lead one to suspect grave harm.

>>34577537
>you can't shoot someone for punching you

You absolutely can, if some shit comes up and sucker punches you, you have every right to unload

File: impressive.gif (2MB, 350x255px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 350x255px

Didn't read your thread, just admiring those pits. Mmmm, yes, impeccable pit game. Shame about her clavicles.

>>34577557
no, you don't
you have to use reasonably proportionate force in defending yourself (some overmatch is acceptable and expected)

a punch is not typically lethal or grievously injuring, so you would not typically be justified in using lethal force

if you're disabled or tiny or frail or old, the calculus will change, but a punch from one able bodied man to another able bodied man would not justify lethal force

>>34577556
do you know how fragile the human body is? do you know what insignificant damage it takes to ruin your neck or jaw? do you know how easy it is to become permanently disabled? i was an EMT for 6 years and the trivial shit i saw that put someone in a wheelchair is ridiculous.

>guy rolled his ankle on curb stepping out of car
>ended up with a cracked femur and broken wrist

>guy leaning on hood of car in parking lot
>slips off
>splits his skull on the adjacent cars bumper

>kids throwing snowballs at eachother
>kid """didn't""" know snowball had a tiny rock in it
>girl nearly loses her eye

depending on how hard a slap was i'm damn sure i could make a case. pepper spray is something that would be damn easy to prove that you would "fear for your life"

>>34577727
>cracks femur

How hard did he roll his ankle to fuck his thigh up?

>>34577727
>lists a bnch of anecdotal freak accident stories
the law does not accept than a bare first is typically enough force to warrant the use of lethal force in retaliation

Pepper spray is a direct violation of the NAP and therefore is considered a declaration of war against me.

>>34577596

That really depends on what state you're from.

>>34577494
>what are you going to say to a prosecutor?

You don't say SHIT to a prosecutor, thats what you have an attorney for.

>>34577809
that's a pretty old common law doctrine

I'd love for you to cite legislation or court precedent that allows the use of lethal force against an unarmed assailant when both parties are roughly equal physical stature

now, before you go looking, I am aware of exceptions in such cases as when the victim is on the ground being stomped on with shod feet or otherwise when the assailant has a significant height/position advantage

to be abundantly clear, we are talking about someone striking you whole both parties are standing and relatively equally able bodied

File: what_kills_americans.jpg (1009KB, 1960x1500px) Image search: [Google]

1009KB, 1960x1500px

>>34577779

Hands kill more people than rifles and shotguns combined

>>34577926
It isn't about "hands killing people." It is about:

can you shoot someone if they get mad and slap you or punch you just one time? Does that action allow you to legally use lethal force? As a general rule my answer is you will probably be found guilty if that's all you have.

If someone is straddling you and beating you or just standing up and beating you and you can't escape or if somone is choking you then sure.

It isn't that hands aren't deadly. It is whether a slap or a punch (emphasis on "a") allows for lethal force in retaliation.

>>34577971

Depends on the circumstances.
Mainly whether a reasonable person in that situation would believe they were in imminant danger of death/serious bodily harm.

No. Fearing that somone is trying to incapacitate you for capture and/or further, unhindered assault jusitfies lethal force.
Unless it's a cop of course, whom you must always trust because reasons.

>>34577926
>Hands kill more people than rifles and shotguns combined
Possibly, but "unknown firearm" is pretty big.

The man attacked me, I retreated and he continued to attack me.

I was scared for my life, so I defended myself.

/thread.

>>34578013

Those reasons are that cops have to confront potentially dangerous people and use force to get compliance.
If a average citizen sees someone being a belligerent retard, they can just walk away and don't have to force that person into a jail cell.

>>34578023

I'd imagine that's mostly pistol caliber weapons where the gun wasn't recovered, so it could technically have been a rifle.
But in any case, the point has been made.

Assuming they aren't defending themselves with the spray, then it is 100% legal to use lethal force, because they are attacking you with a weapon that can render you defenseless.

It actually came up in my armed security guard class here in PA.

>>34578000
I agree, though I do hate the word reasonable. As an insurance adjuster you learn certain DOI's have broad interpretations as to whats reasonable.

But I'd say a slap or a punch isn't reasonable to shoot someone (emphasis on "a"). As another anon said yeah if you're a frail old person or have some legit reason why you'd have to use force (recovering from neck surgery) then it's flee or just escalate back.

Crucially I'm assuming outside the home. I think you have and should have a lot more latitude outside the house.

>>34578013
Yeah in most states you are allowed to use deadly force to prevent a kidnapping.

There was one incident where an unarmed perp was trying to escape after stealing something and they jumped into a car with a kid inside and the cop shot the perp and that was legal cause you can do that.

>>34578053
You also have to consider rifles that could have been """handguns""". This is about legal definitions after all.

>>34578060

Like I said, it depends on the circumstances.
A guy could have only punched you once,
but is looking insane with rage, screaming about how he's going to murder you, is still coming after you after you've drawn, and is reaching for your gun.

I bet her pussy is divine.

File: Zimmerman-wink-300.png (132KB, 300x300px) Image search: [Google]

132KB, 300x300px

>>34577537
no, you can shoot him

File: dan schneider.png (2MB, 1338x1398px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1338x1398px

>>34578153
Was. Dan got first dibs

>>34576635
>pepper spray can't cause grave physical harm that could result in loss of life or permanent disability.
People with allergies to either the capsaicin or the solvent in the spray can absolutely die from being pepper sprayed. Even without an allergy, it's pretty fucking hard to breathe with pepper spray in the air, so someone with run-of-the-mill asthma can be hospitalized or killed by the stuff. A healthy, fit adult can also pretty believably trip and hit their head trying to get away from the can of pain pointed at their fucking face, since they won't really be able to see.
>Also it isn't a weapon
If pepper spray isn't a weapon, then neither is a flashbang grenade or laser dazzler.

>>34577779
Don't say "the law" like there is a universal standard for when it's okay to use lethal force you fucktard

>>34577869
>I'd love for you to cite legislation or court precedent that allows the use of lethal force against an unarmed assailant when both parties are roughly equal physical stature
State of Florida V. Zimmerman

>>34576635
i could die without my inhaler if someone sprayed me, it would be equivalent to someone wrapping your head in plastic or drowning you. also if i shoot at the guy the paramedics will get there faster and save my ass

>>34576532
What is kidnapping?

>>34576532

Are there any witnesses? If not, then history is written by the victor.

>>34577926
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2009-2013.xls

for reference

>>34576845
Dude, she's maybe 5lbs away from being a literal skeleton

>>34579103
>Implying that's not my fetish.

I'd fugg da shit out dat bih

always use the seven magic words 'I want to speak to a lawyer', cops can not ask you anything about the incident and tell lawyer that you feared for your life.

>>34576683
>someone could shoot you after macing you
they can also shoot you without macing you