Austria is getting rid of it's dozen Eurofighters since

Gripen.

How can the Austrian DoD be so fucking dumb to enter the Eurofighter project, buy them and then not even upgrade them?

Taranis.

>>34472402
rafale

Just buy F-35s bro.

>must be cheap

F-35s or F-5s.

>>34472481
lol

>>34472497
>F-5s

neat plane, but it's been out of production since 1987
my vote is F-16, cheap by modern standards, and still highly capable

>>34472402
>Must be cheap as fuck.
MiG 21

We probably won't buy American due to Trump, Gripen still good? It was an option the first time too but lost due to backroom lobbying.

Gripen. But it'd face the same problems if they can't fucking mantain them like the Typhoons.

If they want something decent they can buy second hand italian Typhoons ones. Italy is replacing some with newer ones I think.

File: brrrt for refugees.png (217KB, 638x408px) Image search: [Google]

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I bet after a few well filmed runs they issue with refugees will go down.

>>34472452
They wanted to spend as little as possible and then got used German T1 Typhoons instead of T2s. Then they realized that the T1 isn't actually what they initially wanted, and then they realized that upgrading would make their savings pointless.

Also Austria only spends 0.6% of its GDP on defense.

>>34472739
>>34472756
The jump from Gripen to F35 is somewhat akin to jumping from propeller planes to jet engines. In more ways than one, since the F35 technology has much higher performance ceiling where as maneuverability is more or less a dead-end unless you slap AI onto it (but then again AI kinda changes everything and at the same time won't be coming for ages, kinda like nanos)

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>>34472497
buy rafale instead

>>34472790
This shitty image was posted in the last thread we had that essentially spawned this one.

>>34472790
>PROTIP: Must be cheap as fuck.

>>34472452
There was a big corruption scandal surrounding it. Tldr, EADS paid $$$ to politicians to take their tranche 1 crap.

t. Austrian.

>>34473033
This.

Essentially a huge corruption racket.

Gripen or FA-50.

>>34472402
Cheap as fuck?

F-4s.

>>34473379
>fa-50

laffin

>>34472402
Buy proper Eurofighters rather than badly maintained early German models.

Or admit you are irrelevant and spend the money on Mountain rescue helicopters instead.

>>34473470
New idea.

We invite EADS, Gripen, Dassault, Lockheed, Sukhoi and Chengdu to bid for our 15 Eurofighters. Highest bidder gets them and we use the money to purchase some new jets, the idea is that EADS will gladly buy them back to keep the Chinese and Russians away from the engines, radar and avionics.

>>34472756
Gripens are much easier and cheaper to maintain/fly. Its really one of the biggest advantages of the Gripen, it was made to be maintained by a minimal amount of logistics and technicians.

>>34473567
The Swedes know that we want Gripens so they'll up the purchase price.

We need a fake contest... F-16 vs Gripen vs Eurofigher t3 vs lolSukhoi (just to mess with everyones heads) to get them to keep the price low enough.

Just lease something cheap for 10 years.

>>34473656
Renting is always more expensive than owning. Hungary is leasing its Gripens for 130 million $ a year, for 17 years now or so, had they just bought them they would now own one of the largest airfleets in Europe.

Scorpions, it's not like they'll ever do anything besides escort the occasional bear.

>>34473691
>Escorting Bears
>Landlocked and surrounded by NATO

Literally only in WW3

>>34473710
The fucking swiss have to do it.

>>34473616
>The Swedes know that we want Gripens so they'll up the purchase price

This. The last time they were so sure Austria will buy Gripens that they offered them at a ridiculously high price. Hope they don't try that again.

>>34473672
The solution is to re-establish the AH Empire so you'll have those. Or you'll let us annex you into the greater Reich.

Maybe we'll give you some old Tornados.

>>34473744
>re-establish the sick man of europe

>re-establish a military where the officers and the men speak different languages, the artillery is bronze and the tzarist Russians, italians and serbs repeatedly kick the shit out of you

>>34473691
Nope, core requirement for the new fighter is supersonic as they will be used mostly for air policing.

>>34473761
History is that neglected in the US educational curriculum?

>>34472402
Umm why do you need jets in the first place? It's not like Italy or Slovenia are gonna invade you

>>34473744
GDP of a reunited KuK monarchy is literally below Spain. Spain for fucks sake.

>>34473779
Well yes. The A-H Empire is barely mentioned if at all. But refute his points.

>>34473033
>There was a big corruption scandal surrounding it. Tldr, EADS paid $$$ to politicians to take their tranche 1 crap

As much as I'd like to blame EADS it was mostly the stupidity of the secretary of defence. He negotiated such a horrendously bad deal that left as with neutered tranche 1 EFs instead of fully functional tranche 2.

t. Norbert and fuck you.

>>34473802
Spain is a nice country, what are you implying?

>>34473762
Further requirements:
>IRST
>DASS
>Some medium range missile
>Low maintanance cost
>Secure supply of spare parts for the next 40 years

IMO only the F-35 guarantees that all. Yes, the C costs a fortune but we'd want the A and the costs are going down.

>>34473833
I'd still like to see some credible calculations on the maintenance cost, especially for a smaller fleet. Having only one engine helps but I can't imagine that the stealth coating and electronics will be cheaper to maintain than the Typhoons.

>>34472402
F-106 Delta Darts. I'm guessing they'd be pretty cheap and they have some unique capabilities.

>>34473873
They say it costs 80 million € to keep the fleet flying for 1300 hours total per year for the Typoons, or 80.000 $ an hour.

F-35 costs around 40.000 $ an hour.

>>34473885
>F-106 Delta Darts

Those have a turning radius bigger than our country.

Also they're old as fuck, hell ther's enough industrial and institutional knowlege here to create something better than that on our own.

>>34473897
Yeah, sure it does.

>>34473897
>F-35 costs around 40.000 $ an hour

I doubt it - you got a credible source on that number?

>>34473910
The whole point of the F-35 is to get rid of the dozen or so different aircraft doing right now all the things the F-35 is supposed to do, to simplify the supply of spare parts, to simplify training of maintanance crews etc all which brings down the costs of operating it.

>>34473927
Since no-one is operating them in combat, no he doesn't. I don't doubt that's the figure LM are quoting, but you'd be an idiot to believe it.

>>34473927
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/f-35a-cost-and-readiness-data-improves-in-2015-as-fl-421499/

Open a dozen sites with the info and you get a dozen different estimates.

>>34473932
Those are all valid arguments for the US military but what about a country that operates only 20 of them? I'd expect the hourly costs much higher if the fleet is small.

>>34473033
>>34473230
These politicians fuck up everything they touch.
Look at Croatia for the newest example. They paid big $$$ to update their fucking MiG-21 fleet and after around 2 years they said they require a new fighter.

Why does nobody see these corrupt deals?

>>34473616
>F-16 vs Gripen vs Eurofigher
Bulgarian here, we're having literally this setup in our contest, except that it's new Gripens vs. 2nd hand Italian EF2000s and third-hand early F-16s.

>>34473996
Depends on how much the spare parts cost more due to the fact that they're being exported. It's obviously cheaper for the USA than for Italy or random Arab state because Lockheeds suggar daddy is the US government.

I know how much of a meme the F-35 is around here, the F-16 would be perfect for us but the problem is that production will end soon because it's old as fuck and soon after that supply of spare parts will dry up. We're too late to join the F-16 club...

>>34474005
Everyone knows but what can you do? Corruption is a bi partisan matter, just voting the other party solves nothing.

>>34474005
There is always a lot of money involved in military spending so the kickbacks are high as well.
And our glorious leaders usually make sure that anti-corruption laws are toothless so it doesn't hurt that much if you are cought red-handed.

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>>34474027
Maybe we should ask China for some J-10Cs as well... We could get a nice deal because they're desperate to expand their arms exports to the west.

>>34472698
the eurofighter replaced the f16

>>34474070
We'd buy Mig-35 or Sukhois before that happens. And Russian planes were highly unlikely even before the Krimea crisis.

>>34474106
Migs and Sukhois have 2 engines (higher maintanance costs) and have 4000+ kilomters range (useless feature).

Also they're old as fuck and have a politically sensitive supply of spare parts - you can sanction Russia because their economy is tiny and going nowhere, you can not sanction China.

>>34473826
I dont have to. He made claims, which go against what we would consider "mainstream history".

>>34474005
Croatia can still sell their flying coffins to some other Africa-tier air force, but nobody is as dumb as Austrians, to buy Tranche 1 Typhoons without swimming in money, to give them complete goddamn overhaul.

>>34474118
Yeah, but Migs would be initially much cheaper than any western fighter.
If I remember correctly they were even evaluating Mig-29s the last time before the EFs were ordered but found them to be unviable due to their outdated avionics and engines.

Nevertheless, relations with China can be unstable so I doubt any country in the west would order there.

>>34474159
>nobody

Chengdu and Sukhoi. But i guess there's some secret small printed part of the contract saying we cant sell the jets to anyone at all.

>>34474176
>Nevertheless, relations with China can be unstable so I doubt any country in the west would order there.

We're just at the periphery of "the West" though... We're perfectly willing to fund Russian gas pipelines to the neverending butthurt of Poland and Ukraine.

Unrelated to the thread but for all you Austrians in here, what do you think of the AUG/StG-77?

>>34472402
Some Mirage 2000-9.
Not going to find anything cheaper, except maybe the F16.

>>34474203
We get to play with the old low quality guns produced in the 70s during our time as conscripts. Everyone else gets the shiny new export models.

Not a bad gun though, not that i would know otherwise, we dont have a gun culture here.

>>34474183
I was thinking more about some petrol sheikhs, that would buy the Typhoon anyway, but won't give a damn about final price of these refurbished machines.

>>34474196
Austria might be at the periphery of western europe. However, if you count the sphere if influence of EU and NATO as "the west" then it's already bordering Russia.

And if I have to choose between Putin and the Arabs where I get my oil and gas I'd gladly get it from Russia.

>>34474265
The Russians and Chinese are perfectly capable of differentiating though, half of NATO still uses Russian equipment and gets spare parts from there and other services and the Russians gladly supply them because $$$.

I'd favor a fair contest between jets from the USA, Europe, Russia, China and South Korea. There's plenty of jets to chose from.

>>34472722
Mig 15

>>34474243
>not that i would know otherwise, we dont have a gun culture here.
From my experience it's quite good. Second only to the AR-15 despite the gnashing of teeth from people who down bullpups. There's no real upgrade the Austrians could make besides going for a railed setup like our AUG M1's have. The old optic is pretty bad in comparison to something like an ACOG or variable scope.

How is this even a question?

F16 is the answer of course.

Reliable, cheap, proven. If cost is the big concern, F16 is a great choice, and is still capable.

>>34473964
>F-22 cost is 60k per flight hour.
That is almost at the same level as a heavy bomber, that is absurd.

>>34472402

>Can't afford Eurofighters
>lets get something new

Enjoy having shit. You will do well with Gripens but remember you have to pay for features like with Eurofighter and your shitty ass procurement will make it more expensive to deploy them than they have any right being.

>>34473897
and British costs of the Typhoon cost £4500 an hour or £91 million a year for their entire air force.

Austria just has a retarded procurement policy where they refuse to bulk buy anything and just buy it when it breaks, which is fucking retarded when Tranche 1 EFs are already obsolete in terms of air power.

>>34472790
This image is almost entirely incorrect though.

>>34473554
>EADS, Gripen, Dassault, Lockheed, Sukhoi and Chengdu to bid for our 15 Eurofighters. Highest bidder gets them and we use the money to purchase some new jets, the idea is that EADS will gladly buy them back to keep the Chinese and Russians away from the engines, radar and
No one will ever sell you anything ever again.

So who do I ask about purchasing all of the Austrian Eurofighters?

>>34472452
Hey Einstein, here's a protip :
You can't "upgrade" an Eurofighter. There is no way, except by spending dozens of millions per jet sent back to factory, to make a T1 into a T2, and a T2 into a T3.
Which is why the T1 EF are going to be retired after 12 years of service, while the complete fleet is still going to cost 75% more than expected.
Bravo.
Thank god for Dassault and the Rafale. Where going from F2 to F3 to F4 is done with a screwdriver and a laptop in an afternoon.
>in b4 butthurt bongs

>>34472917
>PROTIP: Must be cheap as fuck.
A Rafale F3R is arguably cheaper than a Gripen E. An thrice more capable. And has a set course for its next evolutions. And is still the only euro jet with an operational and commissioned AESA.
Austria only needs to police its sky though, so they will rent some gripen like the rest, if there are still gripens to be rented... Buying ? I don't think so.

>>34473554
topkek

>>34473567
and what happens when there's no JP5 to fuel the Gripen ? Like in 2011, they wait on the tarmac while the big boys go to war. Also, with all this ITAR, I hope the US never get angry at the austrians for not taking in all these poor refugees. Just saying.

>>34473616
Add in some Rafales to troll everyone and make germans angry. With a bit of luck they'll complain that France exists, like they did when DCNS won the submarine contract in Australia.

>>34473743
Lol, considering how they just tried to scam the indians alongside Lockheed and how the indians poo'ed on their heads and wiped their smelly assholes with their shitty offers, I totally expect the swedecucks to try something like that with Austria.

>>34473833
>Low maintanance cost
>IMO only the F-35 guarantees that all
HAHAHA

>>34474228
The UAE do not want to sell them, and the line was closed 20 years ago, too bad.

>>34475058
This may be a correct answer. F-16 block 52/60/70 or whatever.

>>34475223
and for some reason procuring an obsolete plane you can't upgrade isn't retarded. Gotcha

Buy Regia Aeronautica subscription :)

>>34472402
HAL TEJAS

>>34472402
F-35

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>>34476444
this, only option unless you want obsolete garbage

>>34472402
The F35 is going to be the most common fighter in Europe for the next half a century. If you're unwilling to buy into that guaranteed relevance, then buy some 4th gens and STFU.

Probably Superhornets would be the best of the 4th gens, but Gripens aren't bad either.

>>34473897
Source ?

DoD hasn't released any numbers like that.

>>34472402
dornier alpha jets are the best buy in europe
better yet get cheap production rights and build several squadrons

>>34476531

Why has nobody mentioned Superhornets? New production models, paired with a massive airfleet worth of spare parts from the US, should have some longevity, right?

>>34476429
DESIGNATED

>>34476679
superhornets are not cheaper than F-35's

>>34475452
>You can't "upgrade" an Eurofighter. There is no way, except by spending dozens of millions per jet sent back to factory, to make a T1 into a T2, and a T2 into a T3.

The T1 was never upgradable to T2, they are at most upgraded to T1 block 5. The hardware differences between T2 & T3 are far smaller, and upgrades for those two are mutually compatible

> A Rafale F3R is arguably cheaper than a Gripen E.

Cheaper to the French government maybe, I doubt this holds true when it comes for exports, including support & operating costs. Oh, and while I don't think the F-35A is the right aircraft for the Austrians either (second hand Gripen C or F-16C are the inevitable choices), mocking the supply chain security of a single engine aircraft which is likely to be around in ten times the numbers of the Rafale, and already outnumbers it, is typical misplaced frogfag arrogance.

>>34475452
>jp5

Actually, there was only JP5, which is a cruder type of fuel than Gripens usually fly. Thus, they had to do some small modifications to fly with it. I hope i don't have to explain how a jet engine works? There's a 100% biofuel gripen by the way.

>>34474086
Your point is?

>>34472415
That was my first thought, but Australia and the South Pacific are more fuckhueg than most of us realize. They need something with range.

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>>34479022
exactly, australia is really far from austria

>>34475452
>A Rafale F3R is arguably cheaper than a Gripen E. An thrice more capable.

That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Gripen" bullshit that's going on in the aviation industry right now. Rafales deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine Rafale in France for €70,000,000 (that's about $80 million) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even shoot downslabs of solid steel with my Rafale.
French engineers spend years working on a single Rafale and rivet it up to a million times to produce the finest planes known to mankind.
Rafales are thrice as capable as Gripen E and thrice as cheap for that matter too. Anything a Gripen can shoot down , a Rafale can shoot down better. I'm pretty sure a Rafale could easily bisect a Su-35 in full A2A load with a simple MICA-IR.
Ever wonder why Sweden never bothered conquering France? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined French and their Rafales of destruction. Even in World War III, russian soldiers targeted the men with the Rafales first because their killing power was feared and respected.
So what am I saying? Rafales are simply the best plane that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the aviation industry. Here is the stat block I propose for Rafale:
(One-engine Exotic Fighter)
1d12 Damage
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork
(Two-Engine Exotic Fighter)
2d10 Damage
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork
Now that seems a lot more representative of the air 2 air capability of Rafales in real life, don't you think?
tl;dr = Rafales need to do more damage in real life, see my new stat block.

>>34479115
i think the new set has a 16-20 crit roll but im not sure. my dm only does the original set, which as you point out, is highly inaccurate and unrealistic.

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>>34472790

Here's a more believable chart.

>>34479115
>all this work
>doesnt post Rafale health, hardness, size, what weapon deals the damage, and difficulty to hit
>2 engine does more damage arbitrarily
Well, you got the bullshit random rules aspect right then
do you even tabletop bro?

>>34479276
But rafale does have two engines, you need to stat out how it would perform if one engine fails.
As you can clearly see, even if one engine fail, the Rafale is at least 1.5 times more capable than the Gripen E
[Spoiler]Haven't played a single ttrpg[/spoiler]

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>>let's all parrot out bullshit from a brochure since the plane isn't even being operationally tested.

I expected more from you /k/. The F35 is the scam of the century.

>>34479309
Gripen has +2 to agility though, which means that it will match the rafale with 1 engine, and almost with 2. Also, it can be enchanted with meteor which makes it able to easily outdamage the rafale.

>>34479415
define "operationally tested"

>>34479415
this, on the other hand, is exactly what I expected from /k/

fucking armchair analyst.

>>34479415

So on the two sides we have:

> The US government, all three US military services operating fixed wing combat aircraft, and more than ten close allies which have access to non-publicly available information on F-35 capabilities, all believe that the F-35 is worth procuring in large numbers

or

> Filipino Philatelic Forum Fuckwad Fiddy cent shills quoting David Axe quoting Pierre Sprey from five years ago memed by APA.

If only everyone was as smart as you, anon.

>>34479467
The phase that is defined as "initial operational testing and evaluation" on all the Lockheed briefs for the stepping stones the plane has to reach to be declared "ready".

they are going to build some planes with testing equipment to capture the plane behaviour and flight model. Then they are going to build a simulation to test the plane in realistic scenarios.

Until that happens the plane is still a glorified prototype. Think all the problems that cropped up in the program until now and multiply that by a hundred.

That's what the operational testing phase is for...

>>34479490
You know, there's a report from the Fucking Pentagon about this

>>34475172
Former f15 and f22 crew chief reporting in.

It's not nearly that bad. Don't remember the exact amount, but I believe it was marginally more than the 15, about $40k.

That fleet grounding when the obogs system went down was actually great for us. We went from 32% FMC to 97%.

Granted most of that was from LO, but a lot of other TCTO's were finally pulled from the back burner and actually competed.

FUCK IRCM DOOR INSTALLS AND RIGS.

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>>34473423

The FA-50 is a very inexpensive supersonic light fighter, I'd take it over getting scammed by Kfirs anyday. The EL/M-2032 is capable of accepting AMRAAM and Derby BVR missiles. It's the absolutely cheapest supersonic option for Austria

>>34475452
>A Rafale F3R is arguably cheaper than a Gripen E. An thrice more capable.
Except that you get twice as many Gripen Es for your money, that Gripen has a superior AESA radar, better usage of the Meteor, more built in compatibility with NATO munition and better datalink with the TIDLS.
Rafale offers better endurance and heavier payload.

>>34479494

There's a report from the Pentagon revealing that the F-35 programme is a massive scam? Oh really?

>>34472402
F-16

Next thread

>>34479234
Lol.

I want to see F35 haters get buttmad over this.

Super Tucano

>Cheap
>Can Take off from a alley
>Maintenance can be made even by Monkeys (Brazilians)

>>34472402

>Austria is getting rid of it's dozen Eurofighters
>Finland buys them

Screencap this.

>>34479720
>Finland
>buying decrepit Euromemers that can only fly day time with a single short range IR missile
Yeah, no.

>>34479720
>finland buys them
nope.jpg

Finland has money and are looking for a long-term solution. Either gripens or F-35s i bet

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>>34472402
>Cheap as fuck

11tyith hand F4 Phantoms.

The world will tremble as the Austrian air force blots out the sun with a dense cloud of smoke as their 50 year old bomb trucks take to the skies.

>>34472415
Gaypin

>>34479720
HAHA
No.

If anybody will ever buy that flying scrap, then maybe UAE, Saudis, or Kuwait.

>>34479685
The point isn't that Austria don't have money for anything better. The point is that Austrian government don't want to get deposed over wasting money for the second time. That's why they are looking for some reasonable solution.

Buying Tranche 1 Typhoon for the price it was offered for was a fraud. And burning all the money to keep it fly-worthy, was budget mismanagement. So now they need decent plane, with decent specs, for decent price.

>>34479791
They should buy into the PAK-50. Buying the F-35 makes them look like USA's cuck desu senpai.

>>34473554
>What are End-User agreements.
You'll get sued so hard you'll be paying for that stunt for decades.

>>34479497
If you can afford to wait, you could even get a version with APG-79

Coupled with Litening pods, and IRST, it could become a fine day/night fighter indeed

>>34480110
>LMAO BUY RUSSIAN

I swear moot was lying to us about traffic increasing during summer

>>34480210
Buy Chink then. Kind of dumb to not buy their shit when they're right next to you though. the Swedecuck plane won't be relevant once Russia gets 5th gen aircraft operational.

>>34480268
I'm just going to call it right now and say your underage, get the fuck out of here.

>>34480110
>PAK-FAilure
>less stealth than a Rafale or Gripen
>no s-ducts
>shitty russian missiles
>weapon and wheel bay doors fitted worse than an IKEA shelf
>shitty russian engines
>more or less a Su-27 in a body kit

Worst of the planes currently under development.

>>34480110
>as opposed to buying from Russia, which would make them look like independent sovereign countries really
Bishkek

>>34480286
>le Finland should join NATO / be a perpetual crybaby bitch partner who'll run to USA when shit goes bad while not contributing to NATO directly
nope. fuck you finland. join or fuck off.

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>>34474005
The decision in itself is legit, although the execution is laughable

The migs were upgraded (or rather, overhauled) so it is safer to fly because it will take 6 to 10 years between contract signings (for new aircraft) to getting said new aircraft to reach its required operational readiness. However the fact they've source their shit from some junkyard in ukraine and not going for more reputable companies in south africa/israel made the deal look bad

Hell in hindsight, croatia would be better off buying brand new F-7 (brand new, heavily modified Mig-21) from china like what bangladesh and nigeria did.

>pic related

>>34480384
The plan is to buy the migs from ukraine and have other companies (most likely from Israel) to upgrade it to Bison standard.

Also, nice looking plane there. How much Bangladesh paid for them?

>>34480428
$50 million for 16 F-7BGI

>>34472452
It's the thing about how being cheap often leads to spending more in the end because you have to buy twice.

Austria should never have bought an aircraft in the price range of the Eurofighter in the first place with how small their military budget is.

>>34479234
Needs to be updated post the F-35's performance at the Paris Air show.

F-35's

>>34480466
>Austria should never have bought an aircraft in the price range of the Eurofighter in the first place with how small their military budget is.

True. But the decision wasn't purely based on cost and requirements. There were a lot of other business deals between companies in Austria and Germany/UK tied to the procurement. I doubt this would have been the case if e.g. F-16 were chosen.

>>34480381
t. Triggered teen
Hit and sunk...

>>34479309
my issue isnt the double engine, its that the damage output is drastically increased for no real reason.

The gun equivalent would be a backstrap on a glock increasing damage by +5 and putting it in shotgun territory.

but thats my TTRPG fa/tg/uy 'tism

WTF Austria needs jet fighters for? No one really wants to invade them. Even the Platypus are poisonous and the Koalas have VD.

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>>34481263
Fucking upstart indonesia. Luckily we had our allies to contain their delusion

Am I the only one being sad that they will probably end up with a shitty half assed solution that won't be interoperable with any relevant military in Europe?

Especially considering Austria's little interest in defense matter and its small needs, maintaining two dozen planes, with all the infrastructure behind, just for the sake of it seems rather useless.
They say sky policing, but who can come into their airspace without having been intercepted by NATO or another European country before?

I believe the utopic course if action would be leasing a few planes, or even abandoning the purchase altogether.
They could chip in with Germany to agree on shared capabilities meanwhile and have their pilots and crews train alongside Germans to not lose the human capital.

The goal would be being part of an European 6th gen plane program and be equiped with it when it's launched.
Interoperable with all militaries in Europe, safe part supply (some of them.probably even produced at home) and scale economies to drive the price a bit down.

But I know it's not politically feasible in short term, despite Macron and Merkel enthusiasm.

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>>34482044
Forgot pic

>>34480762
>derp
sure thing bub. I'll be the "teen" phoning my congressmen not to take any action when the bear gets bored with your country pretending to be independent.

>>34472402
Super Tucanos.

>>34478242
They are not cheaper to buy, but they are cheaper to fly.

>>34480268
>Swedecuck plane won't be relevant once Russia gets 5th gen aircraft operational.
So you're saying it'll be relevant for another 40 years?

>>34482044
You do realize they were flying SAAB planes before? And they were completely fine with it.

On the other hand, Typhoon purchase was economic disaster. Maybe if they actually got the tranche 2 they wanted, it would be excusable, now it's just the disaster.

And sixth gen won't be around for next few decades.

>>34479680

Well, they have either hanged themselves, migrated to other sites with a more "receptive" audience (not as knowledgable) or have realized that the F-35, is a good fighter aircraft after all.

>>34480491

Yeah but i made it back then when it wasnt clear how good the F-35 could maneuver.

>>34472415
This fucking garbage again

>>34482587
This fucking faggot again

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>>34482658
Says the guy who literally goes into every single thread where someone asks "what plane is good for country x now that their y's are being retired?" And immediately spams "GRIPEN!!!!!"

Suckstart a shotgun eurotrash.

>>34472402
stop fooling yourselves that you are a sovereign country and let your military be annexed by the germans, just like the dutch are doing.

but seriously, if you lack the money to properly equip,maintain and train your squadrons of eurofighters, there isnt a way you are going to get a whole new infrastructure in place to replace them for even close to the same cash

all this talk is political bullshit where somebody is "fixing the problem" by "doing something others are unwilling to do".

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The KAI FA-50 is the most reasonable choice if they want the cheapest thing that can fulfill their requirements. The Italian M-346 variant is ridiculous, strapping all these weapons systems on a subsonic aircraft won't hell you if terrorist take a commercial airliner.

The other choices are obvious, new Gripens or second-hand F-16 MLUs. The Kfir is a fucking scam and after that there's really nothing NATO compatible left in your price range. Maybe used Mirage 2000-5s mothballed by France but you're going to have a few issues with retooling for the French supply chain.

I can see the FA-50 becoming the new F-5E of the west, cheap, effective enough and able to fulfill all the roles you need in an air force (including a commonality with the T-50 as a trainer)

>>34480491
>F-35's performance at the Paris Air show
It was lame af.

>>34472402
>>34472415

fpbp

I'm American but for Austria's defense situation the gripen is excellent.

>>34482859
too be fair the Gripen is the cheapest option, so it might actually be a good idea this one time.

>>34473691

OV-10 bronco

You'll make jalopnik happy.

>>34472402
Current gen f-16

Cheap, reliable and capable of doing everything the Austrians will ever ask them to do.

Failing that get Grippen C/D models for the above reasons plus it designed to be maintained by conscripts which the Austrians military still uses.

>>34476679
You can buy 3 f-16s or Gripens C/D for the cost a one super bug. At the point you may as well just get the f-35.

>>34473691

Yes and be completely useless if some jihadis hijack an airliner and takes her high and fast enough. Subsonic jets are useless for air policing and air space control

Super hornets

>>34484746
How is maintaining a high AoA at near stall speeds lame af?

>>34486210
Because that's the minimum required, any plane does that. Soon you will praise it for for being able to fly...

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>>34479234
>implying the flyaway cost of a rafale is higher than a F-35

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>>34472402
Fenrir

>>34482859
>mad F-16 shill: the post

>>34488679
>any plane does that

lol sure they do champ.

>>34488735
>literally a basic landing procedure
anon...

>>34482859
To be fair considering he size of Austria, having a lower range isn't a problem for the Gripen, it's Cheap and likely good enough to at least rival any likely opponent Austria would have to face off.
Essentially what makes a Gripen is that in well controlled zone which is Austria with plenty radars, you can fly short missions and with higher speed than something like a rafale for a lower cost and at slightly higher speeds than a F-16.
It takes more of an Interception role than F-16 would take a strike or Rafale a Air superiority role, and i doubt Austria being landlock in Europe would get much need in thoses fields.
Things like rate of climb or BVR highly favor the Gripen in this role and while the cheap nature of a F-16 and it's more potent strike capabilities are tempting , Gripen shills are probably right this time F-16 lower maneuverability and responsiveness overall in operation could justify a Gripen choice.
Though Rafale does make for a strong competitor against the Gripen the biggest defining factor would then be the cost as Rafale's BVR is even higher, coupled with more electronic capabilities and overall a younger platform could be interesting, though due to lack of early adoption the price seem way to expensive for marginal increases in theses fields against the Gripen which remain much cheaper.
F3R might change this however which would mean Austria might be facing a though choice.
Adopting F-35 early hoping that passive stealth pays out? Adopting Rafale because it's Active stealth capabilities are demonstrated and F3R could be afforadable? Or going for a more bread and butter Gripen?
Also the F-16 are out of the picture because they clearly need to be phased out and even America knows this fact. Even F-15E would get Trashed by Rafale due to just being way to old to compete.
For short either get Rafale which is a better bomber AND air superiority fighter than Euroshitter, get Gripen if they're tight on moneys or get a F-35 if rich.

>>34479467
You sound like my engineering manager

>>34482044
>but who can come into their airspace without having been intercepted by NATO or another European country before?

NATO

>>34488844
>Though Rafale does make for a strong competitor against the Gripen the biggest defining factor would then be the cost as Rafale's BVR is even higher, coupled with more electronic capabilities and overall a younger platform

>ijustmadethisup.jpg

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Gripen E is the only answer unless you want overcosted or outdated equipment.

10 bucks says this is the actual Austrian DoD asking for advice

>>34488862
>Gripen's Introduction
1997
>Rafale's Introduction
2001

Also i think it's universally well know that Thales Radars are clearly superior to Raven's.
Dassault clearly knows what it's doing with electronic capabilities since it's one of their main focus torough devellopement after having problems with it in prototyping, They kept upgrading it and working on it.
The end result is that Thales range is 200+km while raven is rumored to be inferior to 200km.
Overall while they both support Meteor missile it's clear which aircraft is more adapted to it's usage.

>>34488891
Yes, this is the Austrian DoD. Can you guys please hurry up and give a definitive answer? Parliament keeps calling me even though I told them it's being evaluated by top men.

>>34488804
Did you even fucking watch it? It was flying boxes at, as he said, near stall speeds. If you are comparing landing maneuvers to that you're so bias you're beyond saving.

>>34474070
>chink trash

>>34479022
You're a fucking retard. Did you change your trip? I thought I had you filtered

>>34488905
Hello guys for the DoD. Are you aware that your current minister won't be in charge after the election in October so the whole discussion now is just a scam to influence undecided voters?

>>34488920
Of course I watched it. What are you guys talking about? You could have mentioned many things but this part of the flight is the most common maneuver during any airshow. Actually I can't think of a plane that can't perform it... Extreme things like SR71 probably.
Remember most of air police missions consist to escort private propeler planes at very low speed.

>>34489059
Thought exactly the same - fairly standard maneuvers, nothing I haven't seen a thousand times from 4th gen fighters.
Don't get me wrong, it wasn't bad but no idea why all F-35 fanboys were wetting their pants over it.

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>>34488901
>Thales Radars are clearly superior to Raven's.
>[Citation needed]
The fact that the Raven ES-05 radar is mounted on a turntable makes it far superior to the RBE2-AA as it can scan a 200 degree arc which also means the Gripen can guide missiles while beaming the opponent.

>Overall while they both support Meteor missile it's clear which aircraft is more adapted to it's usage
Yeah that would be Gripen, as the Rafale only has a one way link to the Meteor unlike the Gripen(and Eurofighter) that has a two way link.

>>34489056
The ministers Yes, but us over at the DoD will still have our positions... well, actually it's just me who works here and... well I actually have no idea what the military does or want. I usually just ask here or 4chan and Reddit and forward the most popular advice back to the minister of defense. So far nobody has questioned me. Except for that animated prepubescent tankgirl camouflage I guess. That wasn't well-recieved...

>>34472784
>Austria only spends 0.6% of its GDP on defense.
That's the real problem. Increasing that to the NATO 2 would solve the military's problems.

>>34489205
Well, more money always helps. But they are not in NATO, why would they raise the spending to some arbitrary number?

>>34489172
>I usually just ask here or 4chan and Reddit and forward the most popular advice back to the minister of defense.

Lol, that would actually explain some decisions. But if that were true we would have replaced the AUGs with ARs, FAMAS or Nuggets, depending on the time of day you asked on /k/. And we would fly A-10s instead of EFs.

>>34488804
40-50 degree AoA isn't standard.

>>34489475
>why would they raise the spending to some arbitrary number?
Because that number is, by international consensus, pretty much the minimum needed to field a credible force?

>>34488901

>Also i think it's universally well know that Thales Radars are clearly superior to Raven's.

But that's objectively incorrect. The RBE-2, even in its AESA variant is fucking tiny and is a fixed facing.

The ES-01 Raven is a larger radar, and more modern than the RBE-2, even if it's on a smaller aircraft, it's also on a traversable mount, so its VASTLY better for working BVR with, as it can turn away from the direct flight post shot. As the other guy mentioned, Gripen has a two way link as well.

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>>34472402
Are they still producing F-16s? Best plan is to jump on someone elses big order. Austria honestly doesn't need a 1st or honestly a second rate fighter. The latest block F-16s or super bugs would be more than adequate for their needs. An armed trainer would meet most of their needs. A turboprop with AIM-9s would probably be fine honestly, but they probably couldn't intercept airliners.

Either integrate with the German military like Denmark does I believe or accept that you just need a low cost fighter to shoot down an airliner or hijacked aircraft.

>>34489771
>40-50 degree AoA
Cool story.

>>34489925
Didn't you watch the performance? It was flying straight with the nose pointed around 40° up, what the USAF calls 'post stall maneuvering'. It's a proven capability, not some meme.

>>34489871
>Either integrate with the German military like Denmark does

Not possible, neutrality is written into the constitution.

>you just need a low cost fighter to shoot down an airliner or hijacked aircraft

Unfortunately pure interceptors aren't built any more because that's exactly what they need. A modernized Mig 31 would probably be the best fit for the role but buying a jet from Russia is out of question.

>>34489793
Don't you dare to science on 4ching. Everybody knows that more expensiver aircar means more better everything. Just like with all things.

>>34474129
What world do you live in where the AHE wasn't the weakest of the European powers, with an incompetent military that lost to everyone but the Italians in WW1?

>>34490166
>post stall maneuvering

So the stuff the Russians usually show at air shows which promptly triggers /k/ about 'muh E-M theory' and 'muh unviable in modern air combat'?

>>34489125
>The fact that the Raven ES-05 radar is mounted on a turntable makes it far superior to the RBE2-AA as it can scan a 200 degree arc which also means the Gripen can guide missiles while beaming the opponent.
it also means It can't see what's happening on the other side when beaming the opponent. Absolutely great for situational awareness in a complex environment. Not.

Meanwhile in France :
https://books.google.fr/books?id=brnuCAAAQBAJ&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=radar+conformal+rafale&source=bl&ots=VsRMOU_WlX&sig=u5x_pA3Ng0CLn929DvSQOe4JXao&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwibyrG4zfzUAhUKtRQKHRAzB_oQ6AEIIzAA#v=onepage&q=radar%20conformal%20rafale&f=false

This will be a reality with the F4 standard in 2023.

>>34490451

>t also means It can't see what's happening on the other side when beaming the opponent. Absolutely great for situational awareness in a complex environment. Not.

As opposed to the Rafale which can't see what's happening anywhere except the front of the aircraft at ANY time, period. You use it to be able to keep an eye on a confirmed target. Rafale as soon as it turns completely loses that target.

One radar can look in all directions. One radar can only look in one. That is an objective upgrade. No matter how you try to spin it.

>M-muh 2023 future Rafales!

Completely unfunded with no confirmation they're even going for it.

>>34490311
They are part of the European Union and its Common Security and Defense Policy (CSDP).

>>34490451
In fact, it doesn't mean that at all...

>>34490166
Show me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKKpUv_qlC0

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We used Saab 29s, Saab 105s and Saab 35s for decades and should've gotten 39s instead of EFs, fucking lobbyists.

>>34480139
>Sue a sovereign government
Interesting strategy, Cotton. Let's see how it works out for them.

>>34490311
>Mig 31

That thing would start turning somewhere above France

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>>34490451
>it also means It can't see what's happening on the other side when beaming the opponent
Given the fast scan rate of AESAs, not a problem, especially since planes go up in groups.
A flight of four Gripens can cover an astounding ammount of space while Rafales are stuck looking forwards.
And with Gripens you can afford to put up full groups as a Gripen E only costs half of what an Rafale costs for an export customer. You can also guide a missile and perform a beam maneuver which is invaluable if you get yourself into a missile joust. The Rafale would be stuck with either trucking ahead into the enemy missile or break while the Gripen can do both.

>This will be a reality with the F4 standard in 2023
>[Citation Needed]
Because there is nothing in your link that claims so, it is more of a lamentation over the shitty nose cone on the Rafale and basically a napikin sketch of a possible workaround.

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>>34480384
That's a J-7, which is a damn near carbon copy of the Mig-21. The JF-17 is a heavily modified Mig-21.

>>34488877
The Gripen E is >$100 million per plane. It's main selling point, the lower cost, is gone now.

>>34491302
>I have no idea how the world works, the post
You do realize it happens all the time and this is why there are contracts?

>>34490359

The difference is that the F-35 was showing off what it could do in terms of manoeuvrability after facing years of criticism about being an aerodynamically compromised design due to sacrificing so much for LO shaping, showing that criticism was unfounded. Russian fighters are criticised for exactly the opposite reason, sacrificing so much else for the ability to do party tricks at air-shows while flying clean.

>>34491448
That might be slightly exaggerated. Yes, the Mig 31 is not very agile but neither was the Saab Draken and it filled its intended role sufficiently.
For air policing you need most of the time a fighter that can reach its target quickly. You don't start a dogfight with an airlines that lost comms.

>>34491724
The Gripen costs almost $130 million apiece when all is said and done, as per the Brazil contract.
The Indian deal shows that the Rafale goes for ~$250 million and if I recall correctly, the F-35 went for $240 million or so, much thanks to it being projected to be built in the thousands.
Gripen is still the cheapest of the lot by quite some margin.
It is also the cheapest to run according to Janes, so it is a good option if you are Botswana and want shiny new toys to parade around/plow into the dirt.

>>34491995
>Yes, the Mig 31 is not very agile but neither was the Saab Draken
You shittalkin my planefu son?

Okay, maybe the Draken won't hold a candle to many things flying today but it was no slouch either. It could do the Cobra for instance.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jqiDEcfSnXs

>>34491769
The main criticism I've heard was 'can't turn, can't run' (Sprey?). Can't run might be slightly true, it's not the fastest jet out there. And I can't say anything about 'can't turn' because the display doesn't show the ability for high G turns that well.

>>34491698
I kinda feel bad for Argentina that the best they will ever get is this looted™ MiG-21

>>34492092
Draken was such a comfy plane.

I still hope that Austria, Switzerland, and Finland will fly the SAABs again. Denmark is already lost though.

>>34492433
Last I heard, Israel kiked the argies into buying their decrepit kfirs.
They expressed interest in some Huehue Gripens but the UK holds the license of some critical parts in the Gripen and they cockblocked any sale until the Argies gave up their claim on the Falklands.
Rather than even considering doing the sensible thing, Argentina went shopping elsewhere and the only ones offering a reasonable deal was the Greatest Ally who offered a real bargain, almost new Kfirs with new upholstery, air fresheners and cleaned out ash tray. Much better than those busted F-16s that the US tried to sell according to some (((advisors))).
Those kfirs will totes keep the glorious Argentine air free of nefarious anglo Eurofighters or monkey Gripens, any rumors of otherwise is paramount to another shoah.

>>34494490
Kfirs were cheaper than going Russian, though.

Overall, Argies just need to wait for UK to collapse from snackbars then take the Falkands back.

>>34492032
F-35A is down to 83 million. Rafale is around 150. Do you work for Sabb?

>>34492433
Looted?

>>34492433
Even when they tried to sell JF-17 to argentina, the UK successfully lobbied the chinks to not include any ASM into the deal

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>>34491698
Where did I say otherwise? F-7 is still a heavily modified Mig-21, which includes marconi grifo radar, double delta wing, new, Nato-compatible radio and IFF as well as MFD

>>34497790
Japan paid &136.82 million for their F-35, support cost not included.
reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN15G3UP

The <100 million is projected for the US procurement in 2019 if it is all smooth sailing from here, a pretty big if.
Pretty good for what you get but a far cry from the original projected cost of $42 million.

India paid 250 million for theirs, a bit under $9 billion for 36 planes but that is all costs included.
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-signs-rs-58-000-crore-deal-for-36-rafale-fighter-jets-with-france-1465495

Brazil paid roughly $4.7 billion for their Gripens.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/brazil-finalises-468bn-gripen-ng-deal-416586/

The $240 billion cost for the F-35 is one of those persistent myths, a number derived from including years worth of maintenance and and supplies.

The Rafale is the most expensive option on the market by far at $250 million apiece.
The Gripen is about the same as the F-35 when all weapons, training and spare parts are included but with lower lifetime costs.

>>34480384
>upgrading/overhauling, buying new shitbed21 variants
>good idea
Are you a slavboo by any chance?

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>>34479234
Here's the version that was made by someone who isn't a fucking idiot

>>34499222
I still wonder if the first one was an honest, yet retarded attempt, or just plain old shitposting

>>34484157
>and after that there's really nothing NATO compatible left in your price range
Russian shit can be NATO-comparable, at least on paper.

>>34498296
Brazil also got ToT on massive scale.

>>34499222
Trying to compare jets like that is still retarded. The original as well as this one are both dumb, and ony robs nuances from a debate about something very complicated

>>34498296
>The Gripen is about the same as the F-35 when all

SAAB does not sell Gripen planes, they sell the gripen system. Price includes a lot of stuff like training, logistical support, etc which is not included in the F-35 cost.

I Would go with the Korea FA50, it seems to have everything you need in at least a basic fighter, ECM, MAWS, RWR, CMDS, FLIR etc. while being cheaper than the Gripen

http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=513

>>34480458
>16 planes for 50 million dollars

Fuck me, if we ever get in an air war with chinks we will run out of munitions

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>>34492433

No the Kfir is FAR FAR worse, they sell bullshit about magically turning back old aircraft to "0 flight hour hour airframes" which is impossible. Look at all the other South American ir forces that bought the Kfir, huge numbers of them have been destroyed in crashes with pilots killed with many more being left in an unflyable state because the Israelis charge out the nose for maintenance. Trying to keep a jet from 40 years ago flying is more expensive than getting something new

>>34500015
If only Argentina would give up their retarded claims on the Falklands things would be so much easier. They had one shot at getting them and they blew it. Can't they dig up an old beef with Chile or something if ther machismo demands it?

>>34499998
have you ever bought anything cheap from china? i doubt we'd even need munitions at all...

>>34498400
>I cannot into context
The post

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>>34499999
Sadly the BGI is the last F-7 variant to be sold as newly built. China had since move on to promote their newer planes to fill the gap left by F-7

>>34479022
You're dumb and you should feel dumb.

>>34501086

Argentina has been offered the Gripen, FA-50, JF-17, and Mirage 2000-5 (mothballed former French air force) yet somehow the Kfir is STILL in the lead, it's pretty obvious a lot mystery money in envelopes are being handed around. Just nobody in Argentina wants to pull t he trigger and blow a huge some of money

>>34501791
UK will cockblock the Gripen sales for the eternity. Only chance is to wait until all the Brazilian Gripens gets delivered, and then magically become the Gripen user, while the Eternal Ango is barking at Brasilia.

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>>34501791
(((They))) cannot keep getting away with it!

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>>34472402
M-346FAs

>>34501791
Argentina had operated mirage III for so long and the infrastructure/manpower required to maintain the aircraft is still there afaik so it's pretty sensible to buy Kfir which is basically a heavily modified Mirage III

So unless argentina is willing to strip everything and start over with completely new fighter, getting a modernized Mirage III is the best option, just like what Bangladesh did with their F-7BGI (which is basically a modernized Mig-21)

>>34501791
>Mirage 2000

Top kek. There's a reason why everyone is retiring them left and right

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>>34479415
>F-35 is a scam, we need a fuckhuge fleet of planes for niche roles that have aging airframes and avionics, most approaching or are obsolete.

The meme never ends.

>>34490166
That kind of maneuver?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtUTCBJ0bJo
It could be impressive if only the F35 could perform it...