Shoot / Don't shoot scenario - Glock 43 9mm single stack

>>34463689
> Tonight, when banter between two dorks turns tragic, on WIBY, Indiana 9 News.

>>34463689

He did the right thing. Had a gun pulled and kept moving to pull his and fire.
also the old guy just walks off after taking that many to the chest? what ammo was he using?

>>34463689
>https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9fd_1499286996

Everything about that was fucking fantastic
>59 yr old
>Calls his wife a slut, asks if his mom is out
>Tries to flash a weapon on a riding fucking lawnmower
>Gets shot 4 fucking times, guy probably magdumped 15
>Gets up and walks away
>"Motherfucker"

Holy shit, that really made me laugh.
To keep it relevant, yeah I would. Brandishing a weapon at me is escalation of force. Fuck that old fart.

>>34463689
Shoot to kill. At the point the old man brandishes, it's completely legal to kill in self defense if you fear for your life.

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>He then says "I see you got the slut out," in reference to Keller's wife. Weigle then gets onto his riding lawnmower and starts to ride off.Weigle backs up his lawnmower and flashes a gun at Keller. Keller pulls out his own gun and fires at Weigle, hitting him four times in the chest during an exchange of multiple shots.

He flashed a fucking gun at the guy. If someone flashes a gun at me and I can reasonably draw in time I'm fucking mag dumping. I don't care if they are a 80 year old church going grandma. I aint fucking around with being shot.

>>34464417
>Gets up and walks away

how the flying fuck? are we sure he was hit at all? I've dropped boar 3 times the weight of that old dude with one 9mm to the ribbs.

>>34464506
He got shot 4 times in the chest and is now in critical condition: https://bluelivesmatter.blue/video-indianapolis-firefighter-dean-keller-gunfight/

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I feel like its a shoot sitchuation, seems to have a backstory and guns are for action not for talk.

I feel like we should give points to the fire fighter for such a smooth draw.

>>34463689
As soon as he pulled or brandished I would have shot and kept shooting until the threat was gone. Fuck old retards.

>>34463904
>>34464417
>>34464473
> He did the right thing.

Maybe you guys are different, but I'm not a firefighter, and I'm pretty sure I'd be in jail if I was in the shooter's shoes and this video came out.

Before you jump down my throat, I get that the old man is a twat for brandishing. But notice at :56 where the firefighter hasn't even drawn yet and the old man has put his weapon down already? Yeah, without that civil service record, I'm pretty sure I'm losing my job if not also heading to jail for manslaughter.

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>>34464688

People don't like to think about how government workers get way more leniency with violent crime, especially here. Bunch of bootlickers.

>>34463689
Does dis mean 9mm btfo.

>>34464688
put your arm by your side then raise it up

that is all the time it takes for the other person to die

this could be a white on black shooting and I'm 100% sure the jury would still side with person defending themselves

>>34464719
Yes, utterly useless. Tell me what POS you own in 9mm and I'll see if I can save you the trouble of disposing of it for $50.

You know, for collection reasons.

>>34464701
>people are caught up on him being a firefighter

If it didn't mention this people would be in full support of the shooter. Instead /pol/ comes in here and shits up the thread.

>>34464774
Funny that the Muslim agrees with the decision but /pol/ doesnt, /pol/ confirmed for worst scum

>>34464774

I'd be in support either way, my point is the legal system is prejudiced, retard.

>>34464774
Anon, you don't have to be from /pol/ to deduce that civil servants benefit from their professional contact network.

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>>34463689
Real talk this is making me wanna ditch my G26 for a 30. I had a feeling for a while but wtf man that old fucker just got back up cursed and fucked off.

>>34464817

>>34464817
Not sure it's really going to matter. Plenty of stories of guys taking multiple .45s to the chest and not stopping. There was also one deputy that took a .45 though the teeth and still beat the shit out of the suspect.

Did any of the high velocity stuff like .357 Sig or 9x25 ever pan out for better incapacitation?

>>34464748
Lmao I'm just surprised 4 shots to the chest an old ass man and he got up and walked away like nothing happend.

I read he's in critcal condition now but still dat just means 4 shots .45 would've failed too and .40

>>34464817
Shot placement. Any self defense round is enough to drop a person. Shot placement is what keeps them down.

Four shots to the chest and nothing vital was hit. It's why I think they are being liberal with the word "chest".

Heart, Lungs, Sternum, Thoracic Vertebra, Esophagus, Trachea... These are all things that would keep a person down if they were hit directly by essentially any self defense round.

>>34464688
You're fucking retarded. In the middle of a heated argument the guy pulls his pistol out. If that's isn't a threat according to the reasonable person standard literally nothing is

Ps love the comments on the vid. Even a guy claiming to know the salty old bastard

>>34464873
my uncle was shot in the head with a .45 in the 80s, he walked to the hospital, was back to work in a few weeks

ballistics are weird

>>34464873
>>34464944
True. I've got a lot more reading and learning ahead of me when it comes to guns and ballistics. Just seems like you hear/see so many stories of LEO and civilian shootings where 9mm used and it fucking sucks. Any tips on where I can do more in-depth reading or viewing on the topic?
>Four shots to the chest and nothing vital was hit. It's why I think they are being liberal with the word "chest".
That's what confused me a little.

>old man after getting mag dumped just gets up and walks away
>9mm fags will defend this

>>34465124
>o many stories of LEO and civilian shootings where 9mm used and it fucking sucks

hearing so many stories like is more a function of the commonality of 9mm than the lack of its effectiveness.

this used to be required watching for old night /k/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXwPtP-KDNk

>>34465199
Thank you, anon. I'll give it a watch.

>>34465124
Gunshot Wounds: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques

I can save you some reading unless you're really interested. Basically says anything slower than .357 Mag is roughly the same once it hits a person. 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 Auto all penetrate bone as wide as femurs. Don't recall reading anything on .38 though.

There's also Rozenberg's and Dekel's textbook, but I haven't read it because it looks dry as hell.

>>34464438
Yeah if he's at Starbucks maybe. He's on his own property jackass. Unless he's pointing directly at the guy he's got the right to carry his piece around.

Not to mention the fact he probably drew when the guy approached out of fear.

Basically both of these assholes need to get planted for being retarded and letting stupid shit get out of hand.

>>34465247
.38 can get really weird. There was a case a few years ago where a perp broke into a place and the mom nailed him multiple times in the face and he walked himself to the hospital.

>>34466418
>Old crazy fuck is out again.
>Try to ignore him as he insults me and my family.
>He pulls a gun on me.
>This means nothing at all for he did not point it right at me.
>Better wait and see if he decides to shoot me.

It's like you want to get shot.

>>34464688
The timing between the old man pulling his gun and the guy shooting him was very little. The guy saw it, backed up, pulled his gun, and waited to fire when the old man went behind the post and back on the other side (whether or not the old man still had his gun out didn't matter, as nobody in their right mind would wait to see).

Remember the old line, if you take a gun out of its holster, you'd better be ready to use it. Since that old man did first, you can only safely assume he was ready to use it. The other guy was right to shoot him.

>9mm gets btfo

Wtf bros? It wasn't supposed to happen this way... 9mm was supposed to make the most sense of all calibers... What happened...?

>>34466714
Clearly .40 S&W is the superior option.

>>34466418
he rents one room at the property and was using a "borrowed" gun.
>The owner of the property he rents at said that Weigle took her gun without her knowledge and used the gun in the altercation.

>>34464688
>has put his weapon down already? Yeah,
the threat is still there and imminent. waiting for him to point again will get the other guy killed and a jury will see that even if the guy was a degenerate donkey lover.

>>34466714
maybe he was using rip rounds.

>>34464786
Look out anon, /pol/ is everywhere. He's under your bed right now...

>>34465199
Seriously wish regards who say 10mm is the paragon of pistol cartridges watched this.

No fucking auotloading carriage for an anything close to what a good magnum can, more capacity is great and all but fuck, 10mm is weak as shit compared to any revolver magnum caliber with the exception of maybe .357

>>34464873
Don't know about .357 Sig but there was a report from a bunch of years ago that .357 Magnum had the highest rate of incapacitation per shot, that is, fewer shots leading to quicker incap.

>>34463689

Shoot.

>>34464890

Yes. If you don't hit anything immediately vital, people don't die. Bleed a lot, but don't die.

The human body is genuinely amazing and kinda terrifying.

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>I see you got the slut out

>>34465124

anon, Marines in WW2 thought 30'06 wasn't big enough to drop tiny fucking Japanese manlets. No round is big enough to make up for bad shot placement.

>he's on the ground
>slow regular panic shots

Good job, stop halfway through and run instead of kicking up so much fucking dirt.

>>34466911
i think those were the lawn mower man returning fire

>>34466880
>no round is big enough to make up for bad shot placement
>so make sure you can shoot over and over and over and over and over and over just in case
>don't just hit the first shot

>>34463689
Adrenaline is one hell of a drug. Old fart had it coming though, picking a fight then waving his gun around.

9mm utterly btfo. Cant even kill gramps with that shit mouse caliber. Fuddy five for life bitches

It would have never gotten that far. You talk about my wife like that, I'm over that fence like a fucking rocket. You cannot reach fast enough.

>>34467532
Enjoy your assault charges.

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>>34463689
>old man mumbles to himself "motherfuckers" as he walks off with 4 holes in his chest
holy shit

>>34464774
>le /pol/ boogeyman
Shut the fuck up, not every opinion you don't like is from /pol/ and /pol/ certainly isn't against upstanding members of a community being held in higher regards than useless leaches.

>>34464817
It wouldn't surprise me at all if I found out the old man was high on meth. I don't see why any sane (and sober) person would so overtly threaten their neighbor and not expect some sort of repercussion, probably using his tweaker energy to mow the lawn and stopped to insult the neighbor that kind of annoys him because lolmeth.

>>34467553
Enjoy being too scared of barbarism to defend your honor

>>34467633
You mean "your wife's honor"

To be fair, though, if you fail to defend your wife's honor you're honorless.

>>34467630
Tweaker work ethic is pretty great to as long as they arent at the 'ripping copper out of the walls' stage.

Help my dad manage some properties and the Ritalin popping shut in managed to plant like 10 plum trees and four figs almost overnight with a pick axe and a shovel.

Miss the guy, we tried to get him help when it looked like he was starting to go off the deep end but he just disappeared one night after paying the month's rent.

>be on my own property
>Hold gun on my own property
>Get shot
>Shooter is a tax leech and plays "muh firefighter" card

>>34466801
So then 9x25 dillon is the way to go for semiautos

>>34467695
I fucking hate you pseudo-intellectual lolbertarian retards so much.

>>34467639
This
Just don't over-reach into shit tests and unnecessary bullshit

>>34467696
Theoretically but I'm not convinced. Problem with 9x25 is that it could exceed the velocity of a regular 9x19 by double which exerts strain on the bullets far beyond what they were tested to perform at. You could end up with a bullet that fragments or explodes rather than just expanding and penetrating straight in. You don't see this issue with .357 Sig because companies like Hornady and Speer make their own specialized bullets just for the .357 Sig even though it's designed to use 9x19 bullets. I don't know of any company that makes dedicated 9x25 bullets.

>>34463689
>shot four times in the chest
>walks it off
what the fuck, please tell me he was using ball ammo.

>>34467639
your wife's a whore

>>34467718
Go lick some more boots

>>34467729
If hard cast powder coated can be used for rifle rounds and magnums I dont see why it cant apply to 9x25

>>34467729
I have never had a 9x25 round fragment before impact. Anecdotal evidence aside theres only a 30-40% increase in velocity, I doubt that's enough to damage a regular bullet. Unfortunately I have no idea where to find how much force a bullet can take.

>>34467869
A puny 9mm bullet can't handle more than say, 2000ft/s. Bigger 5.56 rounds or .45 can though

>>34467753
9x25 and 357 Sig are different because they have very little contact between case neck and bullet which makes loading choices slim. You have to be very particular with your bullet design else there won't be enough to keep the bullet from getting rammed into the case when it chambers. This strongly limits what you can do so you don't see very many hard cast bullets for these calibers. Even if you did see hard cast bullets, those tend to be rather slow due to their weight which eliminates the original point of the topic.

>>34467695
>be on property
>go talk with neighbor
>be rude to neighbor
>Be REALLY rude to neighboor
>show gun
>not enough time for nb to know that i wasn't gonna draw
>"oh shit its his fault i dindu nuffin rong

if anything this teaches us the whole "Y DE HAV TO SCHOOT HIM SO MANY TIEMS" is utter crap. old man could of kept shooting back since he was able to STILL mouth off AND walk after be ventilated.

>>34467869
It's not necessarily fragmenting before impact that's the big deal, it's when the bullet hits. A hit is a hit but you could easily tear the petals off a JHP by exerting 800+ ft/lbs of force on a bullet that was designed to go 500 tops. Even in simple 9x19 loads you often to see poorly made bullets that have fragmentation issues in ballistic gel, but that's not considering things like bones in a human.

Ignoring that fact that two people who can come to this kind of altercation while living next to each other are fucking stupid.
Yes, shoot. Clear as day a weapon was drawn and the only response that could save your life if he were to shoot is drawing and firing.

>>34467886
>He hurt my feelings!
>I get to shoot him now

>>34467904
He was being agressive and displaying a lethal firearm. What did he expect? he was escalating the situation and brandished a gun. Doesn't matter where he was. He made someone with a gun feel in danger (who, also, was in his own property).

>>34464618
Is that Matthew McConaughey?

Of course, both of them could have de-escalated before the shoot happened.

Don't get into heated arguments with retards.

>>34467881
9x25 goes around 1700 so it should be fine?
>>34467900
Fragmenting is generally bad for jhps but if the lost petals have enough force to still cause damage and the core still meets minimum penetration it might be more effective.

>>34467881
>puny
>twice the weight as 5.56 projectile
>3.5 mm larger in diameter
Are you sure you know what you're talking about? If you're really worried about issues with pressure, use a gas checked bullet or something with a solid copper base.

>>34468000
Theoretically yes but there has never been such a bullet for use in pistols. Any fragmenting bullet, be it the Glaser Safety Slugs of the 80s or those new RIP bullets have absolutely awful performance and have never been adopted by a noteworthy agency for more than a passing glimpse. Very rarely do bullets fragment in a desirable way, they typically break off into tiny bits piece by piece, even in larger applications like 10mm or .44 mag. These tiny pieces have very little energy on their own and usually stop before they can do anything while the rest of the bullet is now an asymmetrical chunk that is unstable and will mostly likely reorient itself to pass through sideways as typical of an object trying to find the path of least resistance. Penetration ends up being overall poor as energy divided across a bunch of tiny bits instead of one large expanding bullet.

>>34467904
>You can do whatever you want on your own property, even threaten others lives on THEIR property.

You are a shitty libertarian. The old fuck clearly violated the NAP.

>>34466754
We'll then fuck everything I said. Guy is thief and a renter.

Shoot him in the head next time!

>>34468081
Would a .357 bullet work out of a 9x25 then? The .357 is only 0.002" bigger

>>34464748
>thinking he owns a gun

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>>34472410
Uh yeh i do u no guns faggot born. Where's YOUR gun?

>>34466880

20mm is.

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>>34472630

>Faggot born
Kek

>>34470413
Absolutely, in fact it would probably work better than a 9x19 bullet because the 357 Sig bullet is designed just for necked cartridges that have limited case mouth interface.

In Ohio brandishing a firearm is a felony, (aggravated menacing) and is considered an escalation of force that warrants lethal force.

>>34463689
Watch video, creepy old man gets shot 4 times in the chest, dodges behind lawnmower and moves around alot, walks away without looking hurt muttering "muthafucka" at his neighbor.

WTF?? /k "lol 9mm" is not a meme. WTF!? /k. I thought you said 9mm was best and more bullets are better. You couldn't even stop a 140lb grandpa.

>>34465124
Basically, incapacitating someone irl isn't the same as in the movies. In order to cause shock you need to cause a massive drop in blood pressure. 9mm defensive and 45 defensive will cause slightly different size wound channels, but unless you can hit center mass or something else important it won't matter.

>>34472919
You also have a duty to retreat in Ohio on your lawn. Castle doctrine doesn't apply unless you're in your house or perp is actively breaking into your house with you or family in it.
This case went to the justified shoot standards: firefighter did not initiate the confrontation, was in fear of his life, the only question is could he have retreated, and since the other guy was the aggressor and was brandishing a gun, the grand jury probably said a reasonable person would not believe they could safely retreat from that situation. Thus the no charges. Old guy could probably still sue civilly but idt the case would fly. Ohio hasn't had a criminal shooting by a ccw holder since it became legal to carry concealed in '04, maybe longer.

>>34473114
Never said it was covered by castle. I'm simply talking about lethal force being escalated and that warranting lethal force. I love in Columbus so if that was me, the jury would probably find me guilty.

>>34467639
Can hardly sympathize with people triggered when their wife is called a slut. Are you annoyed that someone implies she is one yet she barely puts out, or are you made uncomfortable by the thought of someone thinking of her in that way? Sounds like you're triggered because you're a cuck in denial I or you're sexually frustrated. Never been in the situation myself but if someone called my wife a slut to her face I'd probably have to jump in to stop her going mental. If someone called her that when she wasn't there I'd be curious why they said it. If they were just trying to stir me up, I don't think I'd take notice. If they followed up with some credible evidence that she is a slut, what's there to argue about?

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I read from a top rated Facebook comment on Jewbook (take that for what it is), that the old dude had been harassing these people verbally and semi physically for years. Statements about them being baby killers(vets supposedly), calling her derogatory terms, etc...I get the feeling he was just looking for the right confrontation to handle that guy, which is legally in the wrong but morally? I dunno

>>34466418
Yeah want to know how I know you aren't a permit holder?

>What is brandishing?

>>34473522
Your wife gave me great head

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>>34463689
This video must have backstory anybody know if these guys have been feuding a while or what?

>>34467633
Lol and while you're in jail I'd be dishonoring your wife every night. Might even bring over a dindu friend to spitroast her.

>>34474407
On the blue lives matter site that was linked it said they apparently had been feuding over the fence in the video, the one the old shit is fucking with. Why? I dunno since the old bastard didn't even own the property he was mowing.

These two guys have been feuding and fighting each other for years. Their first real fight before this, one of them drew a knife on each other and cut the other one pretty badly.

A lot of the reasons charges didn't stick or whatever is because these two have a lengthy violent history against each other via official Sheriff records.

>>34466585
>trying to ignore him buy initiating contact with "hey asshole" and laughing when he responds

I wish the old guy would have shot this volunteer leech.

>>34464688
The old man stole that gun from his landlord according to the news report, so he was wrong all the way around even if you get the most liberal faggot judges possible.

>>34463689
Brandishing is a crime, that is why we are taught to shoot after we pull.

>Needing to shoot 15 rounds.

>>34464688
Description of the video already says charges were dropped.

>>34475499
If that's true then by all means he was in the wrong but the shooter did not know this and does not have the right to shoot just because of it.

>>34475410
> volunteer leech
Really? Even fucking firefighters? You don't even interact with them unless your house is on fire or you had a bad wreck. Why the hate?

>>34474311
It's not brandishing if he felt threatened.

"Self-defense, or technically the defense of justification, is a defense to a charge of brandishing, “If there is substantial evidence in a case involving a charge of exhibiting a dangerous and deadly weapon in a rude, angry and threatening manner that the defendant acted in self-defense, it is incumbent on the trial court to submit an instruction on that defense to the jury…”10

Cont.

>>34475739

"While deadly force can only be used to meet the threat of deadly force, the threat implied by brandishing is justified by a low level threat. “When a person has reasonable cause to apprehend on the part of another a design to inflict a great personal injury, and there was reasonable cause for him to apprehend immediate danger of such design being accomplished he is justified, and has the right, ‘to avert such apprehended design,’ and in proper circumstances the right of attack may be essential to the right of self-defense.”11

>>34464506
>be old asshole
>neighbor shoots me
>walk away in an attempt to cash social security check for revenge