Why did the M14, despite being an effective weapon, fail so hard

>>34323381
Heavy as fuck to haul around all day. Long as shit barrel that gets caught in everything. Original full auto was hard to control and stay on target partly because of sight picture being designed for more accurate shots. Over it was fine in its role just the place they decided to test required everything it was bad at.

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>>34323381

The M14 is super fucking heavy and it was wildly uncontrollable when fired on full-auto. Carrying a heavy ass rifle optimized for 500+ yard ranges in a hot jungle where the average engagement is going to be from 0 - 200 yards is a shitty deal. And for actual situations where 500+ yard shots were needed, the M14 still wasn't a great rifle. The M14 was found to be entirely unsuitable as a sniper's weapon, and every attempt to cram it into that role has produced unsatisfactory results. Everybody is happy that the M110 has finally replaced the M14 as the standard designated marksman weapon.

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>>34323975
>>34324063
>full auto was hard to control
>wildly uncontrollable when fired on full-auto

I want this meme to stop.

>>34323381
The ammo was really heavy. The same volume/weight of 5.56 is many more bullets.

>>34323381
>Why did the M14, despite being an effective weapon, fail so hard in the role it was intended for?
>role it was intended for

Because that role in itself was a fucking stupid idea, and any rifle built to suit that role suffered similar handicaps that made it a shitty weapon as a standard issue post WWII.

Fudd mentality is what created the M14.

>>34324098
Nigger is was a full auto 308, what kind of recoil do you think it has.

>>34324950
Newfag here

What is the Fudd Mentality.

Imagine carrying a gun with limited ammo capacity that weighed as much as an M-60 through a 110 degree 100% humidity dense jungle.

The SEALs use a modified modern M-14 in a marksmen role and its a great weapon.

Is .308 too a big a caliber for a practical standard issue assault rifle?

Is 5.56×45 truly the ultimate balance of firepower and recoil?

>>34325057
EVERYTHING HAS TO BE .30 CALIBER

>>34325031
The kind of recoil manly man freedom cowboys, like me can handle

>>34325031
What are you a 65kg woman?

>>34325057
I'll tell you a little before I and others suggest you to lurk more.

Fudd mentality is a mentality that's usually set at least 1 generation behind what's currently happening at any given time. "Back in my day, we didn't have _______, didn't need it!" for example.

As far as the M14 was concerned, some felt you NEEDED a bullet of at least .30 caliber to put a man down and that round needed to be effective for at least over a thousand yards. It had to be accurate, envisioning battle at long range, which WWII and Korea experience showed to be totally untrue. What they ended up getting was a rifle a generation too old, and mediocre at everything because they wanted it to be able to take over as many squad roles as possible.

>>34325101
Yes

7.62 NATO 2 stronk

>>34325104
I've shot a full auto FAL, and while it was basically smooth, you aren't gonna hit shit using it.

Service rifle selection isn't a dick measuring contest.

>>34325104
You're not a draftee who's never fired a weapon before

>>34325101
>Is 5.56×45 truly the ultimate balance of firepower and recoil?

Pretty much.

>>34325122
>implying the m14 wouldnt have been perfect for Korea

>>34324098
Go fire a full auto 308

I fired a G3 and you're not laying down accurate fire with it from the shoulder. It's not possible no matter who you are.

>>34323381
>despite being an effective weapon
It wasn't in harsh conditions.

>Not using full auto 50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUhU-ypDyus

>>34325176
It was never meant to be fired full auto from the shoulder. Shoot it prone with a bipod and get back to us


>>34325076
It in no way weighed as much as an m60

>>34325175
It still would have been overkill. I'll be the first regard in the thread to say it, but .270 or .280 British would have been perfect. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if we were still using it if we had adopted it.

>>34325205
Nah dude, we should've gone .270 Winchester instead.

>>34325161
Interesting point.
A lot of folks assume that because someone was in the military that they are proficient with firearms. Something I have found to not be true.
Been shooting since I was 6, hunting since I was 10.
30 years of shooting and 26 years shooting at moving shit makes one unknowingly rather proficient at shooting.
I did a tactical shotgun course and could perform reload drills faster than anyone in class.
Was just used to doing that shit from goose/duck hunting.

>>34324098
go to a range and shoot a full auto M14, the muzzle climb is severe

>>34325200
>fire from the bi pod
You mean the thing that soldiers with m14 weren't issues with? My point was the recoil on 308. G3 with a bipod feels just fine, minus >only 20 rounds standard. And the drum mag we had kept jamming.

Besides you don't always find a place to put a bipod down in the middle of the jungle.

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>1943
Germans field a carbine assault rifle
>1943+51
Americans finally overcome retardation and field a carbine assault rifle

What is wrong with America?

>>34324063
>The M14 was found to be entirely unsuitable as a sniper's weapon

Wrong hathcocks spotter used it. They destroyed an entre platoon of nva with one.

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>>34323381
the design was compromised before it even went into service. If it had come out prior to ww2 it would make sense as a standard service rifle but post ww2 it was painfully obsolete. Doctrine at the time stated that it was to replace almost everything from service rifle to carbine to sub-gun. It frankly just wasn't feasible. Let's also not forget that it wouldn't have even been adopted if it wasn't for the fact they sabotaged every other rifle it was competing against. Pic related would have been a better choice

open garand action let in dirt

receiver sat in a wood, fucking wood, stock.

no pistol grip to help make FA more controllable.

should have adopted the FAL or AR10, but army procurement shenanigans.

>>34324098
>implying I should trust Todd to be knowledgeable of firearms after FO4

Too long/unweildy for the jungles and CQC of Vietnam.

There's a reason a lot of designated marksmen are using the MK14 EBR in middle east

>>34325418
we're using those boat anchors because the army had no on hand supply of DMRs. they did have hundreds of thousands of M14s that Clinton hadn't chopped up.

Fuck, i was so glad when I got a M110.

>>34325335
Thats what they had. That doesn't make it a suitable weapon.

>>34325418
>There's a reason a lot of designated marksmen are using the MK14 EBR in middle east

this

>>34325252

You forgot:
>1945
Germans lose the war and get their country occupied and split in half

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>>34325467
>>34325467
>Thats what they had. That doesn't make it a suitable weapon.


He fucking loved it

Pic Carlos Hathcock + M14 + Leatherwood ART + Sionics suppressor

What kills me about the fudds who say you need a .30 for everything is they don't seem to realize that .30-06 used to be considered small bore, high velocity like the 5.56 is now. Then people realized how .30-06 and .30-40 blew .45-70 out of the water in performance in a military context.

Do you think there were Indian Wars vets sitting around a bar bitching about how back in their day they didn't need repeaters because with .45-70 you don't need to shoot twice?

>>34325377
the squad automatic weapon version had a pistol grip

I hope you understand why the fal would never be adopted, even though it's a good rifle.

>>34325488
>He fucking loved it
What was his alternative semi auto, optics ready, .30 rifle? Nothing because the M14 was literally the only option in theater.

>>34325506
>Do you think there were Indian Wars vets sitting around a bar bitching about how back in their day they didn't need repeaters because with .45-70 you don't need to shoot twice?
Possibly.

>>34325526
>What was his alternative semi auto, optics ready, .30 rifle? Nothing because the M14 was literally the only option in theater.

He was no AR fan.

In dense brush I'd rather have a pump shotgun and buckshot than an M16. There was no NVA BA. Easy to reload in the field too for LRPG

>>34325476 what >>34325443 said. We happened to need some DMRs. We happened to have a bunch of old battle rifles lying around. They were made into DMRs, and then put into a role that they were actually suited for.

>>34325559
>He was no AR fan
Ok? I'm not talking about ARs you illiterate fuck. I'm saying of course he loved it in that role because it was the only option at the time.

>>34325506
arfags be a fagging.

No sniper worth a shit would touch an M16.

>>34325582
Are you literally retarded?

>>34325579
>Ok? I'm not talking about ARs you illiterate fuck. I'm saying of course he loved it in that role because it was the only option at the time.


And when the M16 was introduced he hated it and pulled strings to get an M14 back with him.

Why did he do that if any of you aggots are right? The answer is you are not ucking right and most men if they had a choice would rather have had the M14 back when they were issued the M16.

The M14 was a better more expensive to manufacture rifle. The M16 was shit designed to be sold to lightweight slopes.

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The AR platform is literal trash for engagements over 200m. The AR10 is a joke outside of America.

>>34325595
>Are you literally retarded?

No but you have not talked to many vets or read much. I assume your ego drives your shitposting. You bought an AR so farty farty shite shite.

>>34325614
British just adopted an AR10 DMR.

France and Germany are going to an AR15 for service rifles.

>>34325607
Are you tired yet from the mental gymnastics you've just done to stray so far off topic?

>>34325335
So?

>>34325630
>British just adopted an AR10 DMR. France and Germany are going to an AR15 for service rifles

Thus the cancerous influence of the US over nato small arms calibres will be perpetuated to the detriment of fighting ability and to the credit of the wallets of contractors who bribe lobbyists.


In an age of cheap as shit optics and FLIR war only happens at 300M.

>>34325614 (you)

>>34325620
I'm actually on an AK kick right now, but OK. You must be 12 or shit posting because literally every sniper carries an M4 in addition to their M24/M40/M2010. Their spotters will either have an M110/MK11 or an M4 and their security will have M4s.

As far as regular vets not liking the M4/M16 I've yet to meet a vet who doesn't like them. Some think they should be replaced, but they don't dislike them.

>>34325636
>So?

The faggot who said it was an ineffective sniper weapon was talking through his ass and knows nothing much of value on the M14 and sniping in Vietnam.

>>34325670
It is an ineffective sniper rifle. If it was good it wouldn't have been replaced by the M24, and then M110.

>>34325655
>As far as regular vets not liking the M4/M16 I've yet to meet a vet who doesn't like them. Some think they should be replaced, but they don't dislike them.


So you've met Vietnam vets who preferred the M16 to the M14?

REALLY?

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>>34323381
Serious answer, because the military was stupid and surplussed so many M1 Garands after WWII that there was a shortage during Korea. The government just got done pumping money into Springfield Armory for the past decade to make M1's and now the military wanted something new and better. Retooling Springfield was out of the question, so the same technology and tools that made M1's were modified to make M14s. It's hard to place the blame on any one party in the equation.

>>34325676
>It is an ineffective sniper rifle. If it was good it wouldn't have been replaced by the M24,

It was not replaced with the M24 it was carried by the spotter. Please please sit down you are genuinely embarrassing.

>>34325679
Oh now we're talking about Vietnam vets? Moving those goal posts now are we? And yes, I have, and yes they didn't have a problem with their M16A1s.

>>34325693
>It was not replaced by the M24
>What is the M21, the designation of the M14 pressed into use as a sniper rifle?

>>34325695
>Oh now we're talking about Vietnam vets? Moving those goal posts now are we? And yes, I have, and yes they didn't have a problem with their M16A1s.


They are the ones who never had a chance to use an M14

I see AR fags live in the same reality bubble as vatniks.

>>34325710
>M14s were only used in Vietnam
Ok

>>34325101
6.5 Creedmoor is, and if you don't think that's the tightest shit, get out of my face

>>34325707
The M24 Sniper Weapon System (SWS) is the military and police version of the Remington Model 700 rifle.

Anyone reading who knows their stuff is laughing at you at this point

What fucking age are you 14?

>>34325506
Probably

>>34325482
>Germans lose the war and get their country occupied and split in half
While not incorrect, it's got nothing to do with the discussion at hand. The Soviets accepted the AK-47 as their standard issue rifle in 1948, the Allied nations were severely behind when it came to their standard issue rifles.

>>34325781
>The Soviets accepted the AK-47 as their standard issue rifle in 1948, the Allied nations were severely behind when it came to their standard issue rifles.

MAS-49/56 is actually pretty nice. Try one.

>>34325728
And the M21 is what preceded it.

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>>34325200

Even in 1960 everyone knew the M14 was shit at full auto

>>34325031
You say that but if you've ever seen an experienced vet weild an m60 you would change your tune

>>34325997

The M60 weighs more than twice as much as an M14 you dumb bitch.

>>34325997
gpmgs rock

>>34325176
I have fired the 308 scar on auto and its reasonable in 2-3 rd bursts from the shoulder. The biggest issue was the muzzle flash within those two to three rounds. The G3 is known as the hardest recoiling battpe rifle

>>34325710
>Self admitted AKfag
>Fucking ARfags
Have a (You) for the road

>>34325997
Subtle, but I got it.
10/10

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>>34326060
http://desuarchive.org/k/thread/34292341/

The lack of a pistol grip does seem like a legit problem

So where does the M21 fit in the M14 family, isn't it just a specialized marksmen cousin to the M14?

>>34325728
He said the M21. The official replacement for the M14 in a sniper role. A handpicked M14 chosen to get the usual accuracy treatment in scope, stock and trigger.
The M24 was the army's answer to the success of the M40 in the marine sniper program. They are the long and short of the Remington 700 action, respectively.
The main reason that the M21 fell out of favor was the gov'ts reluctance to produce any more M14's to be made into M21's. If that doesn't sound reasonable, what has the gov't done lately? Go back to something tried and proven or spend 3x as much on a new system that is marginally better?

>>34325488
Carlos Hathcock used a sporting rifle.

I suspect they are using m21s just because they have a shitload of m14s lying around and its good enough.
Anyway, there are plenty of semi-auto 7.62 rifles on the market that can fill the role, if they want to replace it

>>34325122
>tells anon to "lurk moar"
> incorrectly defines Fudd
ok

>>34325683
This.
The War Department was probably pissed that they had to use 7.62 REAL FUCKING NATO instead of fuddy augh six tho

>>34326271
Got a better cursory definition, wise guy?

>>34326264
They rushed those old M14s and M21s into service again and are still using them because after years of being told engagements don't happen past 400m we needed smaller, lighter, 5.56 rifles

>>34323381
Because battle rifles are horrible assault rifles.

>>34325679
>So you've met Vietnam vets

Define "Vietnam vets"

Are you talking about the glue sniffing paste eating cocaine addicts that got drafted in to the Army or the Volunteers who enlisted into the Marines?

The Marines did't have any real problems with the M16 because they didn't fall for the "self cleaning bullshit" and cleaned their weapons religiously as they always have, did, and still do. The Army drafties were a bunch of borderline retarded meat shields that couldn't be trusted to clean a toilet properly.

>>34326187
The M21 was the standard sniper rifle of the US Army from 1969 to 1988

>>34325679
Yes, all of them enjoyed the lightweight and ability to auto mag dump without massive muzzle rise. The latter was handy in point blank engagements

>>34326493

>The M21 was the standard sniper rifle of the US Army from 1969 to 1988

And it sucked. Nobody misses it.

>>34326634
I'm not saying it didn't, but he asked what the M21 was.

>>34325575

>Implying the M14 is a good DMR

The M14 rifle is costly to modify and modification requires many man hours of skilled labor.The Army refused to admit that they could not solve the M14’s accuracy problems and wastedtwo decades attempting to transform the M14 into a sniper type weapon.

>>34323381
>Long and heavy with no collapsible anything
>Hard to control on full auto
>100-120 rounds goes pretty quick at 750 CROF when you want fire superiority
>"Jack of all trades, master of none"

>>34325575
>M14s
>DMRs
>a role that they were actually suited for.

You're so wrong and you don't even know it.

>>34325076
seals used mk12s and currently m110 they haven't used m14s in literally decades at this point, the m14 was used as the ebr dmr by grunts but it fucking sucks, it's heavy not terribly accurate.

accurate m14 is a meme

>>34323381
Because it was supposed to replace the BAR, M1 Garand, and M1 carbine all at once.

>>34326776
You can solve its accuracy/bedding issues in large part by putting it an EBR chasis. The issue there is that you have now produced a DMR that weighs as much as a M249, is more costly than a 7.62 AR (and still isn't as accurate), and is hated by literally fucking anyone that has to lug it through the goat-fucker sandbox.

>>34326195
>They are the long and short of the Remington 700 action, respectively.
Could you explain that? I'm a bit daft you see.

>poorfag
pls help
is the norinco knockoff a decent WEAPONS PLATFORM if I don't care about blemishes and shit, or does it have deeper mechanical issues too?

>>34323381
probably because it was designed for everything that vietnam was not.
it was designed to be a "modern" garand, meant to kill things from long ass open sight ranges, not fuck-you close jungle. also explains the 17 year long barrel. as far as using a garand action; it's what they had, and it already worked. consequently, it's pretty fucking heavy and generally large.
as far as the full auto "replace the grease gun, the garand, and the m60" idea behind the thing - that was fucking stupid, but it was developed when that's what we did. we were still obsessed with the idea of having 3 distinct tank classes that only ever did one thing each, and then an artillery corps, and that was the extent of armor.

it was built to defend the fulda gap, not saigon, and it showed hard.

>>34327062
Long action and short action refers to the length of the bolt/reciever.
There are different lengths to accomadate longer or shorter cartridges. The short action can handle .308 and smaller cartridges, and the long action can handle .300 wsm and other longer ranged loadings.
This led to two separarate rifles in the US military as part of different doctrines between branches. The .308/7.62 nato M40 shares ammo with gpmg's if needed (Quality match grade ammo preferred) while the M24 needs it's own special supply line but has a much longer range.

>>34327323
Thank you

>>34325679
My dad was in Vietnam from 65 to 66 and 68 to 70. He said the M16 was fine and that shit about everyone hating them is blown way out of proportion.

I know it is a meme but my coworker was a vet and he did mention he loved him M14 and disliked the M16.

He was a Marine in demolitions, did a lot of route clearance and mine sweeping stuff.

I personally liked my M4 very much.

>>34327939
I worked with an old vet who served in Vietnam. He said he was disciplined for throwing his M16 at the enemy from a helicopter after it jammed

>>34325057
Lurk Moar, newfig

>>34328007
he hit anyone with it?

>>34325726
I desperately want someone to stick a 6.5 creedmoor barrel onto a fun switch m14 as a test on how well it would do.

>>34325219
You silly nigger. .300 savage and tactical assault lever guns with shoulder things that go up all day erry day.

>>34328062
kek no

>>34328007
Helicopter gunners used bungee corded or mounted m60s tho.

>dad tellin me vet stories
>would pull the pin on grenade, hold the spoon down and slip it all down into a drinking glass
>now has a grenade that wont go off until after it hits the ground and glass breaks.
>drop them in the middle of dirty vietnamese duck flocks
>all fun and games till a retard blows himself and a huey up in base
>army tells his family he stepped on a landmine

The army takes care of its own.

>>34328275

thats pretty clever

>>34328275
he was just infantry riding in a helicopter

>>34328381
He told me lots of the tricks he learned back in 'nam

>if you're ever in a bad situation you need a dog to watch your back
>breed of dog dont really matter, it just needs to be loyal
>what you do is find a stray and get it hooked on heroin, just a little bit a day will do it
>that dog will go fucking apeshit on anything that might be a threat to you
>nice thing to have in a triple canopy jungle that gets so dark you cant even see your hand right infront of your face at night

>>34328458

did they inject the dog?

>>34325076
yeah the Mk-14 EBR is a 1 moa gun, until you break the bitch apart to clean it then you get a 3 moa gun. there's a reason all of SOCOM dropped the MK14 as soon as the MK17 came into service.

>>34325335
http://looserounds.com/2015/01/30/the-m14-not-much-for-fighting-a-case-against-the-m14-legend/
it was a failure as that too.

>>34328458
Nigga I ain't giving a dog my heroin.

>>34325104
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKqZkh84veY

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>>34328472
ya, and pic related was how his company dealt with belt feeding problems for their 60s

>>34328504

>a can

>slow clap

i sometimes i wonder how people come up with this shit

>>34328530
a surprisingly common fix, actually.

>>34323381
>M14 Full auto sucks
>Yeah just like the G3 and FAL

It's like people forget that there was a semi auto mode on the rifle and if you can't shoot FA with it it is useless.

only really legitimate issue the rifle has is that it's a heavy rifle with heavy mags / ammo. It was never meant to fight in the jungle though as it was meant to fight WWIII on European fields where ranges are more greater using WWII tactics as all the brass were WWII Vets that thought they knew what was best and how to do it.

>>34328504
Holy fuck that's genius

>>34325997
>comparing a shoulder fired rifle with a Belt fed GPMG

The M60 was designed for full auto sustained fire, so it's much heavier and heavier = less recoil = easier to control in FA

The standard M14 was designed as a semi auto rifle that if need be can fire in FA, but this was not it's intended role...

Yes there was the squad automatic M14E2, who's stock made it better suited for FA then the standard M14, but this was really a bandaid and was never a success as the M60 had better capabilities and advantages compared to the M14E2

>>34325335
That was Mawhinney

>>34328458
lol the heroin part is not necessary, just scrap food. See FOB dogs

>>34323381
Stupid wimpy conscripts couldn't deal with how awesome it was. Intermediate cartridges are designed for the lowest common denominator.

>>34323381
Wasn't made right. Read the hitch report

>>34325057
Folklore over data.
And fuck the /k/ommandos who REEEE at honest questions.

>>34325781
The ak was great for its time but the caliber was essentially obsolete in the late 60s and 70s. Militaries started adopting rounds like the 5.56 and 5.45x39 that extend the effective range and reduce recoil. However when it comes to squad weapons in general the USSR was very forward thinking. RPD, AK, and the svd in one squad was a pretty good idea, especially because the rpd is in 7.62x39

>>34325252

I want to know how that Anon got the STG clone already.

>>34325398
>implying that "FO"3 was any better

>>34325607
To the newfag above:
This is fuddlore.

>>34329059
They switched to the RPK with drum mags before they adopted the SVD. The 91/30 with the PU scope was used before that, although I'm not sure of Soviet tactics between 1959 and 1963, and it's unlikely anyone alive could tell us. I do know the SKS was never used as a "sniper rifle" like they portray in Battlefield games, and "snipers" with nuggets in the Soviet organizational plan were not necessarily attached to fireteams the way they have been since the Dragunov's introduction (what we call Designated Marksmen, they call "snipers," while NATO "snipers" generally work separately with a spotter and maybe a flanker).

>>34325630
and NZ just adopted the ar platform

>>34323381
Because they literally intended it for every role when they first rolled it out. They thought it would replace all small arms, from smgs and carbines to squad level light machine guns.

>>34329195
And now here we are 60 years later doing the same thing with the M4, and actually kind sorta not really succeeding at it. Vehicle crews probably should have 11.5" M4 Commandos though, desu.

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>>34329221
>desu
Wtf? Does "though" wordfilter desu now? Perhaps I've been lurking too much recently.

>>34329252
Tee bee aych gets filtered, pham

Can you give me an instance where the M4 is used as an LMG?

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>>34329311
Special forces shenanigans that necessitated the switch to the "SOCOM" barrel in the M4A1.