Why were all very late 19th century guns recoil operated

black powder doesn't work well.....if at all with a gas operated system...it took time for smokeless powder to come onto the scene before development of gas operating systems even started

>>34301440
most semi auto development started as blackpowder, and blackpowder and gas systems are just shy of mutually exclusive. Also they had early concerns about drilling holes in barrels for gas, such as effects on accuracy and such

Can someone give me some examples of 19th century recoil operated guns?

I believe many designers had suspicions about making a gas hole in the barrel.

They tried making gas-operated guns though (the gas trap system)

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>>34301538
Mannlicher 1885 semiauto "Handmitrailleuse", blackpowder semi auto, also pic related although no idea what it is

>>34301538
Maxim gun
Automatic pistols
Remington model 8

>>34301499
you are an idiot

>>34301566
That weapon never saw mass production. Are there any blackpowder self loading guns which were widely used?

>>34301570
nevermind, Remington was early 20th century

>>34301576
no because they all got developed right before smokeless got invented, then everyone quickly switched for very good reasons

>>34301440
I always figured they didn't have the precision machining to make reliable gas systems that weren't bombs, whereas harnessing free kinetic energy is really damn simple.

>>34301575
Really? Tell me about all these gas op black powder semi autos that were played around with. Inform me about how they got around all the uncleanliness of black powder and negated all the downsides inherent wih using it in a semi auto. They must have because of all the development you're implying. I already know about the 1885 Mannlicher, so that should make it easier for you.

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They weren't.

>>34301440
By 1900 recoil operated was 15 years old idea while gas operated only 5 year old.

>>34301440
FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP

>>34301544

This, it was believed that drilling a hole in the barrel for a gas port would lead to issues. I remember hearing about a Nazi rifle that took gas off the muzzle even though the manufacturer knew a gas port in the barrel would be more reliable because of how anal people were about it

Jesus christ do you people actually believe anyone ever used black-powder in semiauto rifles? Smokeless was introduced in 1884-1886 with the Lebel, nobody ever tried making a gas-operated black powder rifle for a bunch of reasons, among them:
>low gas pressure
>black powder burns very dirty
>total lack of necessity

Early semiautos were recoil-operated for a few reasons. Ordnance officers are notorious for having a stick up their ass, and as late as 1942 some still didn't trust porting a barrel for a traditional gas system (see: the spec for the G41 that specifically required a non-ported barrel leading to the prototypes using a gas-trap action). Recoil operation also has less small parts to manufacture and keep clean for simplicity, and the design is more easily adapted from manually-operated designs, like how the Madsen is just a recoil-operated Martini.

>>34301853
That thing was just fucking weird, and had more in common with a lever-action than anything we'd think of as a gas-operated system.

>>34301718
Nigger what the fuck are you talking about, smokeless was introduced with the Lebel in 1886 and i do not think that there was even a single black powder semi auto rifle ever made.

>>34301440
Gasoline was much scarcer back then compared to the 20th century

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>>34302933
https://www.forgottenweapons.com/mannlicher-1885-semiauto-rifle/

>>34301575
Tell me how I'm wrong then Col. Chinn (google "George Chinn" so you understand how I'm insulting you )

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>>34301904
>(see: the spec for the G41 that specifically required a non-ported barrel leading to the prototypes using a gas-trap action)

The very first Garands were gas-trap, too, I think for the same reason

yes fucking prototype semi auto rifles existed designed for black powder, but none of them ever reached production so it's a complete non argument

the main reason for recoil operation is it's more reliable as long as you get roughly the same recoil energy consistently and no one had really designed a proper gas operation. it may seem very simple and obvious now but people just didnt think to " simply" drill gas ports and have a simple piston connected to a bolt carrier, which has a camming surface to unlock the bolt.

i should also note the first maxim guns for black powder cartridges were built in pretty substantial numbers, but they had a lot of mechanisms maxim patented to counter fouling and its negative effects on operations

>>34301893
>I remember hearing about a Nazi rifle that took gas off the muzzle even though the manufacturer knew a gas port in the barrel would be more reliable because of how anal people were about it
The g41
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewehr_41
>no holes were to be bored into the barrel for tapping gas for the loading mechanism;

>>34301576
The Danish used two blackpowder recoil operated firearms for coastal defence, but they really didn't make many.

>>34303264
>people just didnt think to " simply" drill gas ports and have a simple piston connected to a bolt carrier, which has a camming surface to unlock the bolt.
Ferdinand von Mannlicher did, as far back as 1893. He basically designed the M1 Garand 30 years before Garand did.