just how hard is it for an attack helicopter to spot and engage

Well, attack helicopters have infrared cameras and conceivably out-range MANPADS.

Is there an actual number for AH-64's lost to MANPADS?

>>34226676
Hard if the ground shooter is concealed.

>>34226702
Waiting in concealment until point blank against helicopters has been a successful technique for various kinds of irregular anti-air attacks. The downside is that the shooter is dead if there are more helicopters near that aren't shot down, or if the shooter can't relocate before reenforcement (more helicopters/infantry/missiles) hit their slocation.

>>34226737
Not a ton, since the number in insurgent hands is pretty low, but consider that various RPGs and AAA guns have shot down American helicopters- and that's a much harder feat than using a MANPAD. If you can be successful with an RPG, you could have easily done it with a MANPAD.

The other factor is that insurgents generally don't shoot at attack helicopters. The risk/reward ratio is too low. They prefer going after Chinooks and Blackhawks to maximize American casualties.

>>34226676

very difficult for a lone helo. The helo will probably spot the missile launch itself though.

File: 1496703933734.jpg (66KB, 444x440px) Image search: [Google]

66KB, 444x440px

If it uses laser guidance/tracking or some type of radar tracking, it can be reverse triangulates, in the other sense there are active radars to detect objects coming at the aircraft.

>>34226861
>it can be reverse triangulates
??
is this possible?

>>34226875
if the flight path is simple enough you can get a pretty good idea. enough to get a general location

>>34226875
yes. manpads rely on line of sight. if you can see the helicopter it can detect your launch.

>>34226861
Modern MANPADS are all passive IR though.

>>34226979
>>34226999
You know where the missile was fired from. All for the low, low cost of one shot down helicopter!

>>34227016
Not those anons but did you know not every shot fired is a guarantee hit?

Jamming, flares, evasive maneuvers... in some cases a flock of birds or even just distance.

>>34227016
Kill the gunner before they can fire another shot and you've not only disabled the threat but also dismantled their arms against you.

>>34227035
>evasive maneuvers
*teleports behind u*
psst, nothin personnel, ahmed
*empties 30 millimeter into you and everyone around you*

File: manpads.png (2MB, 1564x1956px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1564x1956px

>>34226875


here ya go

File: 1495945316566.jpg (125KB, 331x506px) Image search: [Google]

125KB, 331x506px

>>34227061
>rocket comes at you with the inability to turn to meet you and connect
>rocket goes home telling his wife 'missed 'em again... maybe tomorrow?'
>wife reassures him while onlooking son wearing EXPLOSION hat feels like his father is a loser
>every day's the same.

>>34227073
>UAL counter-MANPADS Process
>1.CAPS searches for & automatically detects missile launch
how the hell can it detect a flying piece of metal?

File: 1485238589444.png (886KB, 1023x571px) Image search: [Google]

886KB, 1023x571px

>>34227127
Are you retarded.

>>34227151
>are you retarded if you don't know how electronic warfare works
gee bill maybe

File: 1496851730493.jpg (151KB, 388x443px) Image search: [Google]

151KB, 388x443px

>>34227035

The only effective technique is getting within a few yards of the aircraft before firing, that way none of the above are effective, because they rely on early detection for countermeasures to be taken. just hope they dont see you with thermal or motion tracking.

>The Mujahideen suffered from inadequate air defence until the war was approaching
its closing stages. Heavy machine guns could be effective when firing from ambush,
eg, from caves against passing aircraft, from mountain tops downwards or from fire
positions sited away from the target on likely approach routes. Sometimes, bait
was offered to attract aircraft into an ambush. However, only the advent of the Stinger made it unsafe for Soviet low-level flight wherever they wished. Another favoured Mujahideen tactic was to destroy aircraft at their bases with rocket and mortar attacks. The guerrillas learned through experience that certain measures were necessary to counter heliborne raids, or at least to minimize their impact. Early warning from outposts and air defence ambushes were important. So too was contingency planning and the establishment of drills for quick reaction and the creation of a rapid reaction force. An effective answer was to hit the assault force as it was landing, helicopters being vulnerable to massed RPG and light machine gun fire, and then to overrun the LZ before the assault troops could get organized. However, the Mujahideen often failed to establish in advance air defence and/or minefields on likely LZs, despite the fact that the Soviets used some mountain ones repeatedly. Better prior preparation would have prevented the establishment of an effective cordon in many search and destroy operations.

>>34227160
This is not a new or electronic thing anon.
>assholes fire missiles at your friends
>you see the dust kicked up by said missles
>estimate the time it took for their payload to get there
>now you have a map-marker and idea of how far away they are

You ever seen someone chopping wood from 100ft away and the sound is out of sync?
I-I dont know how I can explain it any better without showing you ripples in a small pool of water....

>>34227197
No you dipshit i'm asking how does the PLANE itself detect the fucking missile, like what kind of mechanism that makes the plane say "HOLY SHIT THIS FLYING PIECE OF METAL IS FLYING TOWARDS ME"

File: 1481187423778.png (339KB, 200x333px) Image search: [Google]

339KB, 200x333px

>>34227248
>getting mad & spitting insults and curses when you're asking a retarded question that a. is next to common knowledge, and b. can be easily googled

File: LIDAR-scanned-SICK-LMS-animation.gif (1MB, 641x1391px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 641x1391px

>>34227248

here is a visual, there are active and passive systems, (the active ping, like sonar on a submarine) and the passive detect incoming signals for missile tracking systems, this is easy because physics limits the number of radar bands that can be used (the wavelength of the signal affects resolution) surface tracking systems that use very large wavelengths can inaccurately detect even stealth aircraft, the aircraft can receive pings from two points and reverse calculate where the pings are coming from

>>34227248
Holy fuck you're dense.

File: 1483949987542.jpg (12KB, 134x180px) Image search: [Google]

12KB, 134x180px

>>34227367
Please refrain from spoonfeeding entitled (You) seeking underages in the future friend

File: 1496959751298.png (200KB, 356x256px) Image search: [Google]

200KB, 356x256px

>>34227367
>rotating mirrors
>mfw

>>34227073
Am I reading that right? It says FedEx is equipping its planes with countermeasures.

>>34227448

Shipping competition is pretty fierce.

>>34227073
>he thinks MANPADS use radar

loving every laugh

>>34227367
stop posting opsec on a chinese curling website.

>>34227248
For Marine cobras AAR47 and APR39 sensors on the AC

>>34227248
http://bfy .tw/CJHn
>>34227448
http://bfy .tw/CJHi

>>34227514
there are some visual-guided MANPADs, some infrared types, some radar types, and some laser guided types. you are retarded

File: russianseals.jpg (43KB, 635x477px) Image search: [Google]

43KB, 635x477px

>>34227434
>mirrors
holy shit im dying you can't be serious holy fuck what lmao what

>>34227527
As I understand it, all of the new ones are passive IR homing.

>>34227514
I'm with >>34227527
If you think that was OPSEC wtf are you doing here. Lurk for years. Not just here, at the range, with friends. Get an idea.

File: draw.png (169KB, 1564x2676px) Image search: [Google]

169KB, 1564x2676px

>>34227410
NEIN

here is an even more dummbed down one new frendo

I COULD HAVE BEEN MAKING FOODS but instead i spent time making this


the genera l idea is aircraf + 2 or more signals (reflected or detected) = find attacker or missile

>>34227527
>>34227542
>there are some visual-guided MANPADs, some infrared types, some radar types, and some laser guided types. you are retarded
meant to reply to >>34227503

>>34227550
You're technically correct, but laser and radar guided MANPADS are obsolete, and IR and SACLOS MANPADS can't be triangulated.

>>34227410
the military is literally about being told what to do and how to do it

>>34227448
the stuff they carry can be worth millions, and terrorists gonna terror

>>34227248
Probably infrared. A missile launch and the exhaust plume is likely extremely hot. If the helo has 360 infrared sensors, it can likely spot a launch regardless of if the launched missile is active or passive.

>>34227514
>stop posting opsec
I mean it's as simple as sonar or point to point movement in a specified amount of time. Even a total brainlet like me understands this.

File: draw2.png (167KB, 1564x2676px) Image search: [Google]

167KB, 1564x2676px

nigga get lerned on wikipedia >>34227514

visual tracking could also be countered with visual tracking by aircraft

>>34227647
>>34227545
a good comparison are ww2 torpedos for a lot of manpads
>insert speed
>insert current distance
>insert direction and pattern of travel
>insert various variables for weather conditions or ground movement
>shoot while aiming straight at target and the missile will automatically turn itself
silent hunter games have taught me well
i think
unless i'm drawing the wrong conclusions & being retarded

File: 1440769694-lazfull.gif (2MB, 622x346px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 622x346px

i can finaly use this .gif

what the above post said. It's not so hard to understand
>gee carl that rocket looks like its coming at us
>my god james you're right! Good thing I have the stick in my hand and we weren't talking about this instead of simply diving or turning to out maneuver this rocke-

tldr >>34227248 now follow me, >>34227248 ... you are dumb.

>>34227670
It's more like sonar for detection really. You hear the screw on hydro, send it and get the distance. Or mark, 3 minutes on the clock, mark again and you have your knots.

Passive missile launches (IR/EO) are actually pretty hard to see and almost impossible to find the point of origin for small missiles like MANPADS. Various aircraft have missile warning systems but that's just basically detecting a launch with only a small idea of where it's coming from. The F-35 DAS will be the first actually implemented system on an aircraft that tracks missiles.

>>34227730
You're telling me a rocket launcher with active watchers is going to be hard to spot?... Wat. every body and their uncle would sell you out for a single bottle of water.

>>34226676
On this note. Is it true that medevac choppers are not armed whatsoever and only the escort is allowed to carry weapons?

>>34227741
Yes, it's pretty fucking difficult to spot. Easier to spot at night because a missile launch at night is very noticeable. It is pretty difficult to find people with FLIR though unless you know where they are to begin with. Try finding MANPADS in DCS A-10, it has a MWS but finding targets people with the Litening pod is pretty difficult because you have to be zoomed in so much that you're essentially looking through a soda straw

>>34227741
Are you retarded? Do you think a F-18 or whatever at 5,000 feet is going to immediatly notice a .2-sec plume of dust or fire being kicked up?
Literally, watch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWMapybzwbY
It takes a single video to prove you're absolutely retarded. Underages get the fuck out

File: moar info.png (1MB, 1831x902px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1831x902px

>>34227248
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtSUwP0znbo

File: 1440551809561.webm (2MB, 720x405px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 720x405px

this is a tow strike but whatever

File: 1403317682031.jpg (20KB, 400x353px) Image search: [Google]

20KB, 400x353px

>>34227821
Not sure why you are posting this but the ONLY thing of note in this webm is the fact that some random dudes can just set up a TOW next to military airbase and start killing shit. The lack of any sort of security is just incredible.

File: 1497035188970.png (203KB, 584x677px) Image search: [Google]

203KB, 584x677px

>>34227849

>>34227576
human lives are worth more, even if you make a down to earth monetary evaluation of the passengers flying, pun not intended. CEOs, bankers, lawyers, high profile state figures are the people that make those 'very expensive things fedx ships' possible. Why shouldn't commercial airlines have countermeasures?

File: cram.jpg (85KB, 1000x693px) Image search: [Google]

85KB, 1000x693px

>>34227849

That's is what the CRAM is for, and one of the previous posts mentioned that this was one of the more effective strategies for soviet afghan war

>>34227891
commercial airlines dont fly in areas so dangerous without making you sign a waiver. if they thought the odds of getting shot out of the sky was real, going from california to new york, theyd sell you bus tickets instead

>>34227706
you explained it as if an autist tried explaining his autism:

>why dont you get it reeeeeeeeee

>>34227916
The entire idea behind C-RAM is cool to me
>okay, we're getting shelled! how do we stop this?
>like, uh, we can just, you know like, shoot the shells down maaaan
>but those shells and rockets are travelling way too fast for us to shoot
>man, like, why not just, you know, shoot so many bullets so fast that, like, we can always hit it
>genius!
https://i.4cdn.org/wsg/1497217877667.webm

>>34227926
Tell that to Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. Not that I necessarily disagree with the general point you are making.

>>34227916
>>34227849
>previous posts mentioned that this was one of the more effective strategies for soviet afghan war

mostly this. There is also some video floating around someplace on my HD of russian helos getting taken out while landing in syria a few years back the same way. Point being they are very vulnerable on take off and landing to a lot of different weapons like tows that wouldnt otherwise be a threat.

>>34227849
Draw a 4 km radius around an airbase. It's a lot of fucking space.

File: boats.jpg (250KB, 1024x667px) Image search: [Google]

250KB, 1024x667px

>>34227970
>Malaysia Airlines

aircraft are expensive enough as it is

>>34227969

even though its a re-purpose for the CIWS it seems fitting for land defense, the initial use was for hypothetical large scale missile attacks after a few Israeli boats got sunk

this was pretty neeat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n34w_-O6FOQ

b

>>34227127
which part do you question, the detection of metal or the detection of flight? detecting either is trivial.

do you realize how stupid your post reads? no, of course you do. stupid people know they're stupid. in the future, you may want to eat fewer lead-based paint chips.

>>34226676
>how hard

Not very. Attack helicopters have FLIR systems that will usually find ground troops first. In most cases, troops will get made long before they even here the helicopter (9-10k away). MANPADs have a difficult time locking on to helicopters that are on the horizon line of trees or buildings. IR ground shimmer messes with the tracking systems. Attack helicopters have sensors that alert to launched missiles and can easily deploy countermeasures. Machine guns and autocannons are much better weapons against low flying helicopters. MANPADs are optimized to taking down fast movers.

>>34229993
>t. knows nothing
If all goes well for the helicoptet side, this might be the case, in reality MANPADs are a real threat and will easily stop helicpoters operating in known regions. That doesnt mean helicpoters are useless though, MANPADs in insurgents hands for example are rather rare and if you place them over the positions you will end up with a lot of them uncovered or undersupported (at least two missles are suggested to be fired at on target for a good kill chance, evading one missle is one thing, trying to evade or focus on two at once is an entire different story)

>>34229993
>troops will get made long before they even here the helicopter (9-10k away)
bullshit

I hardly bothered to read the entire thread, so bare with me if it's already mentioned; western helo pilots have gotten lazy and are not receiving the training they need to fight force on force. This revelation has been made clear in the past year, year and a half as training focus has shifted from coin to force on force.

Manpad deployment with smart terrain usage will decimate current pilots, despite the advanced optics they have.

>>34230569
Do you even use helicopters for symmetrical warfare?

Seems like everyone and their mother will be waiting with Iglas.

It's MANPADS, the S is for "system", not for plural. A singular SA-17 is a MANPADS.
You are autistic about clips and magazines, you can spare a tenth of a second to use acronyms properly as well.

>>34227786
>>34227806
Are we not talking about infantry engaging helos? We;re talking about proactive and reactionary forces aren't we?

>>34227318
everything can easily be googled, you faggot. Perhaps people ask because they prefer people to answer?

>>34230656
Looking through a FLIR is still looking through a soda straw for men. Seeing a helo is much much easier because they make a fuckload of noise and are in the air against a blue background and large. MANPADS will always get the first shot unless the helo is given specific target area where people with MANPADS reside. Flares easily defeat older MANPADS but you're MWS has to be working right and the MWS can often give off a lot of false launches, making aircrew complacent.

File: ejection-seat-af-acesii.jpg (7KB, 300x201px) Image search: [Google]

7KB, 300x201px

Several decades ago there was this idea of equipping copter blades with exploding bolts which in turn would allow safe ejecting. What ever became of that idea?