This video of the FBI Hostage and Rescue Team just got poste

>>34160436
From this video, I'd say pretty operator given the time

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>>34160436
>Are FBI and CIA specops teams effective and well regarded or are they on a much lower level from similar military groups?
>1985

FBI teams of the time were completely unprofessional by any modern standard.

You can look at how Ruby Ridge and the Waco Siege were handled- escalated to the point of exchanging gunfire, shooting unarmed civilians, and assaulting buildings with the assistance of armored vehicles.

A youtube video of them running through a course of fire is cool and all, but the reality is that mid-80s to mid-90s FBI HRT was literally Beslan massacre-tier operating.

>sweeps cameraman repeatedly during a live fire exercise

Pretty much all you need to know.

>>34161319
>You can look at how Ruby Ridge and the Waco Siege were handled- escalated to the point of exchanging gunfire, shooting unarmed civilians, and assaulting buildings with the assistance of armored vehicles.

Don't blame the team, blame the ROE. Vehicle-assisted assaults are also still really common.

>sweeps cameraman repeatedly during a live fire exercise

Just because your RO screams it at you doesn't mean shit. Downrange people 'flag' all the fucking time. It's not great, but nobody makes a big fucking deal of it. Least of all actual operators operating operationally with other operational operators who they can trust to check their fucking targets. Like HRT.

>>34161319

I'm no expert in this kind of operation, but the equipment they outline and the thought behind that equipment selection makes a lot of sense to me.
What was the FBI's failure then? In ROE? Tactical Decision making? Trigger hungry?

>>34161319
>Ruby Ridge

To be fair, if the US marshals hadn't fucked up and killed a kid the FBI wouldn't have shot blindly through a door and killed his mother.

Okay yeah, nevermind, neither is redeemable.

>>34161385

Is this level of fuckup unique to the FBI though or would military groups done a better/worse job?

>>34160436

>His sniper's instincts are strong.
>They scream to him.
>"Snipers shouldn't be seen."
>But they put him in front of the camera
>For everyone to see.
>The tension builds within him.
>Palpable, almost painful.
>But he must go on.
>"I... I'm the sniper team leader"
>Screaming inside
>Wants to scream outside.
>"We have... blue and gold elements"
>Urge to hide overcoming him
>Across the room, he hears them.
>Hears them snickering
>"What the hell is wrong with Steve?"
>Such is the life of a sniper.

>>34161632
The level of awkwardness from everybody in this video is actually hilarious.

>>34161400

>Russian equivalent once accidentallied all the hostages
>Germans get a bunch of Olympic athletes killed
>Every 'critical' situation the that beautiful continent known as Africa

It's not endemic to the FBI. They're just the most familiar because all the cameras that were pointed at them at the time.

>>34161400
Everybody fucks up every now and then. The difference is that this one was broadcast on Geraldo and the others are either spun into heroic myth (see every SEAL fuckup) or only reported in bumfuck small town newspapers (see that DEA no-knock raid on the wrong house where they fried a baby in a crib with a flashbang).

>>34161400
>Is this level of fuckup unique to the FBI

Not really. The ATF was fucking short dicking everyone from the get go trying to get Weaver to flip, but he refused. The rationale for having US marshals doing conducting armed "reconnaissance" on US citizens in some middle of nowhere forest in Idaho will probably never be understood.

Basically, whoever up the bureaucracy ladder gave the thumbs up to shoot Americans without first ordering a surrender fucked everyone.

In the end, Weaver only ever did time for the original charges and he and his remaining family were compensated in the millions for how badly the whole thing was handled. Kevin Harris (the guy that shot and killed a US marshal) was acquitted (self defense) and subsequently compensated hundreds of thousands of dollars.

>would military groups done a better/worse job?

I think calling out the NG to respond to a white family with a few rifles up in a remote part of the country is an infinitely more stupid idea than having the FBI show up and act hard as fuck, for what that's worth.

>>34161704
>The rationale for having US marshals doing conducting armed "reconnaissance" on US citizens in some middle of nowhere forest in Idaho will probably never be understood.

That's the most clear-cut part of it, I think.

He ditched his summons, so it became their baby. Technically a fugitive from federal charges, after all.

>>34161704
>Basically, whoever up the bureaucracy ladder gave the thumbs up to shoot Americans without first ordering a surrender fucked everyone.

Also, ROE at the time was that "the FBI already gave the order to surrender, and they failed to do so." The Marshalls took that as a refusal, and thus armed adults became combatants.

I know
>jewflix
and all, but they actually have a pretty interesting series on Oklahoma City, Waco, Ruby Ridge, and the Tower Sniper. Pretty objective and more sympathetic to the 'bad guys' than I would have expected.

>hearing a woman talk about what it was like to have her mother's face explode on her at RR is pretty fucking horrifying.

>>34161359
>>34161378

>Downrange people 'flag' all the fucking time. It's not great, but nobody makes a big fucking deal of it.

There is a pretty big difference between flagging someone in a real world scenario, or even someone participating in a drill for a real world scenario, and flagging a literal observer filming a promotional video. Of course, 1985 was a completely different time and many things that we take for granted today weren't institutional at the time- photos of the SAS embassy siege show awful trigger discipline etc.

>Least of all actual operators operating operationally with other operational operators who they can trust to check their fucking targets.

Like Vicki Weaver, right? lmao

Obviously a video from 1985 doesn't represent the group today- I'm sure every counter-terrorism or special forces unit is significantly more professional today, post-9/11 and like 16 years into the GWOT than they were in 1985. However, I think you have to be delusional to think that the 1985 FBI HRT was in the upper echelons of these units at that time, given they were caught up in so many total miscarriages of justice.

>Don't blame the team, blame the ROE. Vehicle-assisted assaults are also still really common.
>What was the FBI's failure then? In ROE? Tactical Decision making? Trigger hungry?

They were still too willing to escalate these situations to the point where violence was inevitable. Waco would have never happened today- Koresh would have simply been arrested when he went to town, just like how the Bundy standoff was defused and he was later arrested at an airport.

The Ruby Ridge ROE is a fine example of how delusional the FBI was even at upper levels.

>>34160436
>this custom Remington 700 will shoot 1/4 groups at 200m

Damn, 1/8 MOA Remmy700?

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>>34161400

>>34161746
>The Ruby Ridge ROE is a fine example of how delusional the FBI was even at upper levels.

Exactly what I mean. The teams did their jobs VERY well.

>Kid shoots at team
>Team puts down kid.

>Armed adult wandering around
>Team puts down armed adult

>Armed adults retreat to 'fortified structure'
>Team puts down armed adult within fortified structure. Collateral face-shooting not a consideration.

People on /k/ complain about our troops being tied down by shitty ROE in A-stan and Iraq, but it's only that way becaus people tend to get upset when RR shit happens.

It's one or the other.

>>34161666
>Russia
>"Accidentally"

>>34161704
Well should other groups have been brought in at Waco after the FBI has seiged it for 30 days without success?

>>34161746
So you think it comes down to a question of strategy and doctrine?

>>34161753
I love the mp5 with the night optics on top that are so heavy you can tell he's scared of them breaking off when he puts the gun down.

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>>34160436

CIA specops don't do hostage rescue, they do wetworks. Also, CIA killteams come from delta, SEALs, Rangers, etc, so the level of training is higher.

>>34161797
>mfw you'll never be a member of an FBI HRT recruited by the CIA to help a Colombian hitman destabilize the Mexican cartel chain of command.
>tfw I have no face so here's this shit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhHwgDAM8uU

>>34161670
>Everybody fucks up every now and then.

Ruby Ridge was a unique level of fuckup.

>run into dog in the forest
>shoot and kill dog
>14 year old returns fire and retreats
>shoot 14 year old in the back as he's retreating
>put a blind round through a door for no reason and kill kid's mother while she holds an infant
>proceed to sit around doing fuck all until they surrender

Fun fact: Dianne Feinstein (yes, that Feinstein) disagreed that the shot that killed Vicki Weaver failed to meet the standard for use of deadly force.

>>34161777
lmao

>>34161783
ROE in the US while engaged with US citizens should be different than ROE in ME while engaged with terrorist organizations IMO.

>>34160436
Why don't more people view the Paris theater events as more of the massive fuckup it was?

They had terrorists inside torturing people cutting off their genitals because they had low ammo while the French faggots outside were deciding what to do.

It was a massive fuckup, it took too long and probably didn't save anyone.

>>34161836
>ROE in the US while engaged with US citizens should be different than ROE in ME while engaged with terrorist organizations IMO.


1) the ROE was set that way because they thought they WERE dealing with a terrorist organization. Foreign or domestic is irrelevant.

2) RR and rolling up badguys in A-stan are essentially the same thing.
>unclear intent of subjects
>subjects armed
>unclear intent of unarmed locals
>locals likely sympathetic to the adversary
>ideal solution is not killing but capturing
>lookouts and watchdogs (in the case of RR, literal watchdogs) employed by adversary
>most important: adversary engages first, clarifying intent.

Ruby Ridge is in my mind the MAIN reason (or the clearest example of it) that ME ROE is as fucked up as it is. That does not mean it wasn't justified. Just that it's a PR nightmare because people already want to hate the government, and more ammunition isn't helping

>>34161359
Don't think the ROE made them blind fire in the direction of non combatants through a door, or made them take trophy pictures with the burnt corpses of branch davidians. Doesnt exactly smell of professionalism to me.

>>34161783
>Police ROE =/= military ROE while deployed
It isn't one or the other jesus, this is why the police and military are two different groups.

>>34161721
The judge changed his court date and he never received the new one. Ditched his summons seems a little misleading.

>>34161822
Don't forget the part where the marshalls were wearing camo without any clear indications of them being LEOs.

>>34161896

Dynamic action is way less dynamic than you'd think. Also, it was an unfamiliar scenario with a SHIT TON of hostages. Bombs were suspected early on.

It was wait, plan, and execute effectively, or risk having everyone die all at once. They acted on the information they had, and while a lot of people died, I don't put it on the French response teams.

>>34161666
The Munich rescue operation was just a bunch of beat cops.

>>34161789
>Well should other groups have been brought in at Waco after the FBI has seiged it for 30 days without success?

Absolutely not.

>>34161929
Bombs are no fucking excuse, even the police in Boston (operating as a gigantic fucking unit) let the bombers flee because they were scared of bombs.

It's the best way they have to slow down a response. I don't think it should.

I never hear about HRT operations from the last ten years or so.

This can only be a good thing.

>>34161920
>Don't think the ROE made them blind fire in the direction of non combatants through a door, or made them take trophy pictures with the burnt corpses of branch davidians. Doesnt exactly smell of professionalism to me.

As far as they were concerned, there were no noncombatants at Ruby Ridge. That's my point. The ROE was fucked up because of the circle jerk at the top. The teams did their jobs well, but it was an organizational failure.

This is a thread about how "operator" groups are. Ethical bullshit has nothing to do with it. Everyone agrees that Ruby Ridge was massively stupid.

>>34161967
>Bombs are no fucking excuse

Yes, they fucking are.

"Team fucks up so badly it kills the badguys, the hostages, themselves AND a building plus unknown damage to surrounding areas" is not how you want a report to go.

>>34161994
Yes but in Western countries the best bombs are used immediately then it's firecrackers.

>>34161777
I never got the GROM one

>>34161994
to be fair multiple mass shooting responses have been delayed(pulse for example) because of relatively unfounded fears of explosive devices. Can't think of a single western attack where bombs have actually been effectively used to attack first responders or tac teams after a mass casualty event.

>>34161942
Is it really within the FBI's purview to be sieging someplace for that long? I always think of the FBI as a more investigatory unit.

>>34162022
This is retarded.

>>34162082
GROM kills hostage and then removes evidence of them fucking up.

>>34161817

I fucking hate this woman.

>>34162082
They didn't know there was a hostage situation going on, but they shot the Muslims on general principle.

>>34161905

>they thought they WERE dealing with a terrorist organization.

No, at RR they were forcing an arrest on someone for a failure to appear. At Waco they dismissed the possibility of a peaceful outcome by escalating it to a siege rather than arresting him in town- unwilling to conduct covert surveillance and instead simply assuming that reports were correct that Koresh rarely left the compound. These sieges occurred precisely because leadership wanted to flex their tactical forces, but simply weren't experienced enough to ensure a swift and effective outcome.

We wouldn't even deal with actual terrorists like that today. The OBL raid would have been armored vehicles surrounding the compound blaring rock music for 5 months straight before trying to drive one through a wall in broad daylight.

>RR and rolling up badguys in A-stan are essentially the same thing.

No they aren't. It's not like the Weavers or Branch Davidians were manufacturing car bombs or were likely to just disappear one night. Law enforcement knew where they were and decided to end the situations tactically rather than defuse them or arrest the key parties when they were unaware. Neither Waco nor RR were in warzones- every advantage was on the side of LE.

RR-era law enforcement was literally a hammer looking for nails.

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>>34162149

Rude.

>>34161817
Goddamn. I really want to see this movie. Is it that good?

>>34160436
>Opening scene: they both move at the same time instead of one covering while the other moves

How terrible, absolutely airsoft tier mistake. Didn't even want to watch the rest, I guess tactics have come a long way since then.

>>34162338
I wouldn't say it's as fully /k/ approved as some other films, but it has it's moments and they're definitely worth it. Blunt is meh as a main character, but the supporting cast is a minimal 8/10.

It's also worth mentioning that I saw this in theaters and had my mind blown, but on smaller screens it's not quite as good. I don't go out to see many movies, so I couldn't say whether or not this is a common thing, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

As an aside, if you like it, also look into No Country For Old Men. Not as action-y, but for some reason the western setting and shady "bad guys" always clicked together in my mind. Plus Josh Brolin is pretty cool in both it's just a good fucking movie.

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Sweet lawd

>>34162557
This cannot have been an actual thing people took into the field right?

>>34160436
If you need to shoot a mother armed with a full loaded assault baby, or burn down a church with women and children trapped within, nobody does it better than FBI HRT.

>>34162557
this needs to be a banner

>>34162643
I have seen bigger sights used in southern Turkey way into the 90s.

>>34161721
He didn't ditch his summons, the ATF moved up the date after he refused to snitch for FBI and didn't tell him.

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>>34162643
This was back when laser sights were the size of electronic pencil sharpeners.

If you wanted to see at night you carried bulky shit.

>>34161319
>Talks about 1985
>Gives examples from almost a decade later

>>34163221
Sure, but on a suppressed submachine gun?

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>>34163295
When they were stacking up against the tire shoot house you can see one with a mag light mounted on top like it was a scope. Even the SAS did that during the embassy siege.

>>34163325
The note on this message is hilarious.

>>34162643
>He doesn't know about the early starlight scopes, particularly PVS-1 and PVS-2
For the time period, that thing is pretty compact.

>>34162553
filmmaker here

It's a commong thing. Go watch movies at the cinema, guys. That's where they are meant to be seen.

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>>34160436

FBI cross-train with Delta so I imagine they must have some skill to even begin to compete.

pic related, actual supposed photo of Delta and HRT training together.

>>34161319

Ruby Ridge and Waco started out with the US Marshals and ATF respectively, FBI only became involved after the situation escalated.

Horochi is still a piece of shit though.

>>34163352

I do, I just question putting something like that on that kind of weapon. It looks like it's about to snap off the rails. Mounted on a monopod, or perhaps on a marksman rifle would make a lot more sense to me. Also if you watch the video he shows off some pretty compact looking NVGs.

>>34162553
Cool. I'll check them out.

>>34160436
That shit looked legit retarded borderline African tier. They all think they're in an 80s action movie or something. There's zero fucking thought or smoothness in their movements, and it's all zerg rush GO GO GO. Shit, it actually looked like a Counter Strike match...for noobs. I bet there's more tactics in a modern professional CS match than that entire fucking video. What an embarrassment.

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>>34163344
Lads

>>34163271

And?

The fact that they completely fucked up in two high-profile engagements gives a good sense of how much insight you can actually gain from that 1985 video.

>>34162149
DELET THIS
More like Emily "I'd bang till my penis was" Blunt, amiright?

>>34161777
That was fucking amazing, great dump m8

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>>34163467
What "films" do you "make"