Why the fuck did Taffy 3 not surrender after they realize they

>surrender
>to the WWII Japanese
Probably because it was better to fight than to get beheaded one by one, anon.

>>34132184
They weren't pussyfart Europeans that surrender at the first chance.

>>34132184
Because, we're Americans.

>>34132184

The better question, who was the more heroic in that action?

The U.S.S. Samuel B. Roberts?

Or the U.S.S. Johnston?

Pretty sure those guys dgaf

>>34132202
Well placed bait.

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>>34132293
>well placed fact

ft4u

I thought they launched torpedoes and sank someone.

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whats incredible is every ship wasn't sunk

>>34132333
>whats incredible is every ship wasn't sunk
I don't like telling my Japanese friends this, but the cold truth is that the IJN wasn't particularly competent.

>>34132184

>what is HMS Gloworm

You don't fuck with WW2 destroyer captains. The were the saltiest fuckers in the Navy.

>>34132389

>The were the saltiest fuckers in the Navy.

Fletcher Captains were nearly suicidal.

>>34132309
'facts'
You are reading from a U.S. textbook?

>>34132184
Because they had a goddamn job to do. It would be pretty hard to fight a war if everyone gave up as soon as the going got tough.

because americans don't do that.

>>34132216
New fag here what does that mean?

>>34132184
Why would they surrender? There was no strategic or tactical benefit to doing so, only personal ones.

>>34132437
FirstPostBestPost

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>Surrender or flee from battle
>Center Force carries on to shred the American landings on Leyte
Taffy 3 knew they were entirely out matched but they stayed and fought because they knew if they didn't then the overall situation would be much worse.
They got some luck since Kurita panicked and thought he was facing Halsey's main carrier force, so he didn't organize his ships into proper battle lines (Which never made sense to me. You figure if you believe you've encountered your main opposition you would take the time to enter the battle in the proper arrangement.)

For some DDs, DDEs, and CVEs, they certainly didn't do bad.

>>34132184
Because Ernest E. Evans was a fucking bad ass.

>>34132437
fruity painted brazilian pottery

>>34132538
Thanks fag

>>34132389
There was some Japanese Destroyer I recently heard about making a last stand against numerous American Cruisers. I cannot remember her name though.

>>34132397
>>34132389
When did Frigates and Destroyers switch in classifications?

It used to be:
PT boat > Corvette / Destroyers > Frigates > L Cruisers > H Cruisers > B Cruisers > BB's

But then in the Cold War, Destroyers were the larger ship to Frigates (by 3 to 5 thousand tons), while Corvettes became tiny speedy fuckers (like the Pegasus class).

Has there ever been a set classification chart?

>>34132463
>CVEs
It was these that truly forced Kurita to retreat. The other jeep carriers in the area started vectoring their complements in towards Center Force. Kurita proceeded to shit a few bricks, assuming that the inbound planes were the vanguard of Halsey's fleet carriers coming in to wreck his shit. Had Taffy-3's destroyer screen not fought their delaying action (even if they did right fuck over two heavy cruisers - one of which was the only gun kill in history by a carrier - in the process, it was still a delaying action), Kurita might not have been so twitchy.

The fuck is this not a film yet?

>>34132580
In the Battle off Samar, there was the USS Samuel B Roberts that was "the destroyer escort that fought like a battleship."

>At 07:35, Roberts turned and headed toward the battle. She charged toward the heavy cruiser Chōkai. The commanding officer, Copeland, announced "We're making a torpedo run. The outcome is doubtful, but we will do our duty." With smoke as cover, Roberts steamed to within 2.5 nmi (4.6 km; 2.9 mi) of Chōkai, coming under fire from the cruiser's forward 8 in (203.2 mm) guns.

>Roberts had moved so close that the enemy guns could not depress enough to hit her and the shells simply passed overhead. Many hit the carrier Gambier Bay. Once within torpedo range, she launched her three Mark 15 torpedoes. One blew off Chōkai's stern. The American sailors cheered "that a way Whitey, we hit 'em" as if it were a ballgame, as shells were still incoming. Roberts then fought with the Japanese ships for a further hour, firing more than six hundred 5 in (127.0 mm) shells, and while maneuvering at very close range, mauling Chōkai's superstructure with her 40 mm and 20 mm anti-aircraft guns.[citation needed] At 08:51, the Japanese landed two hits, the second of which damaged the aft 5 inch gun. This damaged gun suffered a breech explosion shortly thereafter which killed and wounded several crew members. With her remaining 5 in (127.0 mm) gun, Roberts set the bridge of the heavy cruiser Chikuma on fire and destroyed the Number Three gun turret, before being hit by three 14 in (355.6 mm) shells from the battleship Kongō. The shells tore a hole 40 ft (12.2 m) long and 10 ft (3.0 m) wide in the port side of her aft engine room.

>>34132612

I don't have an answer for you, but I know the modern definition of Destroyer is all fucked. Destroyers are larger than some Cruisers these days.

Frigate just seems to be a designation of role: fleet reconnaissance.

>>34132626
>The fuck is this not a film yet?

Seriously, you'd just have to make sure someone like Terrance Malick or Michael Bay or Ridley Scott didn't get their mitts on it.

>>34132653
>>34132642

I'd watch it.

The History Channel did a cool documentary on it years ago that's worth watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_syMKoTsi0

>>34132389
This, absolute fucking madmen

Torpedos didn't fucking work for shit until the war was almost over, and they have barely any other armament, and pretty much no armor. They were also tons of ships that were old as fuck, shoddily made, or both.

And yet they were consistently doing runs empty as bluffs, just fucking plinking huge ships with the 5 inchers, general insanity.

>>34132580
That was Hatsuzuki, she was pretty much the IJN version of USS Johnston, considering what she did.

>>34132667
I think I remember seeing that, good good stuff.

>>34132580
I think Nowaki is the one you're thinking of.

>>34132675
>Torpedos didn't fucking work for shit until the war was almost over
What?
By the middle of 1943, USN destroyers where finally beating the shit out of IJN destroyers in night engagements by torpedoing them.

>>34132626

Because the Japanese theatre has no international appeal and there's no jews involved.

Japan won't allow it to screen there and I doubt it'd get China's backing / screening.

>>34132699
That was it.
Someone linked a write up about her actions. It;s on the World of Warship's forum but it's a good read.
http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/99110-the-last-stand-of-hatsuzuki/

>>34132703
Not the Nowaki, but she did some interesting things as well and was also at the Battle off Samar.

>>34132407
Stop crying Euro I'll accept your surrender

>>34132612
Frigate was originally used as you know it, but the name fell out of usage in the late 1880's. It was brough back in the 1940's during the onset of ww2 to better describe escort ships than "Corvette" or "sloop". Blame the British. The US just called them destroyer escorts.

>>34132764
There was some other IJN destroyer that ended up having to outrun Iowa and one of the South Dakota class ships for half an hour, all while being bracketed by both of the BBs who were firing on radar returns, even using the return of the splashes to correct shots.

>>34132580
Hatsuzuki at Cape Engano?

USN side:
>COMBINED CRUISER DIVISION 13:
SANTA FE (CL-60)
MOBILE (CL-63)

>DESTROYER SQUADRON 50
>DESTROYER DIVISION 99
CLARENCE K.BRONSON (DD-668)
COTTEN (DD-669)
DORTCH (DD-670)
GATLING (DD-671)
HEALY (DD-672)

>DESTROYER DIVISION 100
CAPERTON (DD 650)
COGSWELL (DD 651)
INGERSOLL (DD 652)
KNAPP(DD 653)

>CRUISER DIVISION 6:
NEW ORLEANS (CA-32)
WICHITA (CA-45)

>COMBINED DESTROYER SQUADRON 55:
PORTERFIELD (DD-682)
CALLAGHAN (DD 792)
BAGLEY (DD-386)
PATTERSON (DD-392)

Light cruiser Isuzu and destroyers Hatsuzuki and Wakatsuki were picking up survivors from the sinking of the fleet carrier Zuikaku. Large USN combined cruiser force gets into range and begins shelling. Isuzu and Wakatsuki conduct retreat... Hatsuzuki turns about and fucking charges the USN surface force.

>cont.

>>34132796

>radar tracking gunnery

Man that sounds fun

>>34132184
Because fuck japan

>>34132737
>Midway was June 1942
Like I said, until the war was almost over.

>>34132667
That's good stuff, but you can't beat a classic (made only seven years after the war ended). Dat classic orchestral soundtrack, too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4v0uEpcpdI

>>34132796
That was the training cruiser IJN Katori.
She met the end you would expect of a cruiser going against two battleships and other cruisers.

>>34132908

Oh I've seen the whole series on daytime TV back when THC ran it. I loved those, might watch the episode right now in fact.

>>34132764
Hatsuzuki conducts torpedo attack, cruisers get spooked and initiate evasive maneuvers. Torpedoes go wide, nothing doing. Cruisers reacquire contact with Hatsuzuki, proceed to attain firing solution, and-
"Oh look the sky is now shells, how quaint."
Hatsuzuki is mobility-killed, but still continues engaging the USN force even as the ship is shot out from underneath her crew. This goes on into the fucking night, with the single IJN warship somehow 'surviving' (though quickly mission-killed) a barrage that would likely sink any other destroyer in naval history, as well as eating a torpedo attack run from LITERALLY EVERY DESTROYER IN THE SCREEN (and this was after American torpedoes were fixed and actually fucking worked!)! Eventually does go down after about two goddamn fucking hours of being shit on by American ordnance.

If Yamato was even half as tough as the Hatsuzuki, Spruance would have had one fuck of a tough fight on his hands. An Iowa might even have been sunk, to say nothing of the naval molestation that would be inflicted upon the older USN BBs in the area around Okinawa.
>>34132808
>link
...Huh, so that's where that OoB came from.
>>34132796
Nowaki at Truk. She escaped. The other two ships she was with weren't so lucky.

>>34132407

Europeans are especially salty today now that the American moneyteat is going away.

>>34132463
>American victory

I love being American so much.

>>34132950
Yamato reaching Okinawa would have been really bad if no carriers were able to intercept, unless fate somehow helped the Americans and made the Japanese ships arrive at night.
Then Yamato would be getting pummeled by radar directed fire from the old battlewagons much like the Yamashiro was.

>>34132965
Spare us your delusions. Europeans on this board have been calling for increased military spending on their part for years. No one is salty, why do you have to post stupid shit like this? It's not a bad thread, just fuck off to /int/ if you wish to shitpost and ruin nice things.

>>34132626
>The fuck is this not a film yet?
The lead shoud ve transgendered black with liberal tendencies.

>>34132908

The Battle of Surigao Strait is such delicious vengeance.

>>34132911
Katori got nigh-on mobility-killed by a torpedo to the stern, turning her into what was essentially a gunnery target. Survivors from the cruiser were left to die in the water, with the Iowa moving through the debris field (probably chopping up a few with her screws) in pursuit of the two remaining IJN assets still afloat in the general vicinity.

Maikaze and Nowaki were the DDs that tried to run away. As stated, Nowaki escaped. Maikaze was pointed by New Jersey and was subsequently mass scattered by five direct hits by Jersey's main battery. No survivors spotted.

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>>34133027
Damn right it is. My shipfu did herself proud.
>At 03:16, West Virginia's radar picked up the surviving ships of Nishimura's force at a range of 42,000 yd (38,000 m). West Virginia tracked them as they approached in the pitch black night. At 03:53, she fired the eight 16 in (406 mm) guns of her main battery at a range of 22,800 yd (20,800 m), striking Yamashiro with her first salvo.

>>34133065

Isn't there a piece of that BB at WVU?

>>34133072
Yeah. There's a few mementos from her in West Virginia institutions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_West_Virginia_(BB-48)#Remains

>>34132184
uhh....they didnt wanna get their heads cut off....

>>34133102
IJN was considerably more humane to prisoners than the IJA

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>>34132293
the truth hurts anon

>>34133099

Damn she got broken up and parceled out like a Catholic Saint.

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>>34133027
>Battleships sunk at Pearl Harbor
>some are refloated
>upgraded
>redeployed

>IJN send two old-ass battleships with wonky internal constructions (if the boilers get too hot one of the mags could cook off!) and jenga-shaped superstructures + escorts up a strait
>surprise motherfucker
>all crew on Fuso and Yamashiro KIA, either drowned in the sinking, machine-gunned by USN destroyer crews, some from Fuso make landfall nearby and are slaughtered by natives
>only one IJN DD of the main striking force limps back home

>>34133111
[citation needed]

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>>34133127
Sad
>dat analogy tho

>>34133111
>IJN Tone, motherfucker
>IJN Arashi, motherfucker
>IJN Makigumo, motherfucker
>IJN I-8, motherfucker

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>>34133132

>machine-gunned by USN destroyer crews

Man, that generation STILL hates the japs too. They are all still pissed about Pearl Harbor.

>>34133127
That's what happened to a lot of ships. At least she got to kick ass and there's some reminders of her intact.

>>34133132
Is that really to scale? Jesus Christ, pagoda masts are insane. Imagine being on the top of one while in rougher seas. No thank you.

>>34133165
>Man, that generation STILL hates the japs too. They are all still pissed about Pearl Harbor
Really? Because there didn't seem to be any real hostility between the surviving American and Japanese WWII vets at the Iwo Jima memorial ceremony last year.

>>34133184
No, the hatred between former enemies is usually carried on by the younger generations who only read about events, look to propaganda, or foolishly think the Japanese (or any nation for that matter) of today are the same as those in the past.
Veterans from opposing sides usually have a high level of respect for each other.

>>34133184

Those guys have a lot more perspective now on the events, and a lot of time for the memories to fade.

But at the time, Americans were pretty bloodthirsty. I mean, we nuked them. TWICE.

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>>34133182
>Is that really to scale?
Fuso's jenga superstructure rose about 140-ish feet tall.
It didn't always look like that, either. IJN just decided to tack on as much shit as possible. Sort of like the modern LCS and how it's gone from a minesweeping/littoral corvette to a miniBurke.

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>>34133192
>Veterans from opposing sides usually have a high level of respect for each other.
Only in your Anime, weeaboo.

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Tone was a cool heavy cruiser.

>>34133111
The IJN was the only known military group in WW2 that actually went full cannibal on their POWS.
Those motherfuckers actually ate a bunch of American pilots.

>>34133241
>lose battle and be disgraced
>elevate two "rear" turrets
>fire into bridge to commit honorable suicide

>>34133273
Tenno Heika, banzai!

>>34133209
>But at the time, Americans were pretty bloodthirsty. I mean, we nuked them. TWICE.
It was better than the alternative(s).

>Operation Downfall: the mass invasion of the Japanese home islands. We're still using the stockpile of Purple Heart medals made in preparation for the fatalities from the assault today, and there's no sign of it running out anytime within the next four years. We were going to use nuclear warheads to soften up beaches prior to landing (!!!), as well as flatten any large concentration of industrial output (at least, any that was standing at that point in time) with nuclear warheads. And all that hinged on capturing the Emperor alive and wrangling a stand-down order from him - otherwise it would be just like current actions in the middle east and shit, only at least there would be no restrictive ROE regarding civilians (since there wouldn't be any, just fucking enemy combatants everywhere).

>Operation Starvation: aka the Devil's Sanction. All food imports to the Japanese home islands stopped, flat out. Train lines bombed, bridges destroyed. Mines laid out in coastal areas. Subs given authorization to sink any boat that touches the water, especially fishing boats. Ariable farmland to be firebombed. Herbicides brought in from CONUS, sprayed over Japanese crops and used to salt the fields. Objective: starve the Japanese people into submission, then extinction. Recolonize with American regional allies and service personnel after about two years of maintaining national famine.

The latter would make for one fuck of a creepy novel.

>>34133241
Goddamn, did the Americans have any unique ideas? Carriers = ripped off from the Japanese. Burkes = ripped off from the Japanese. Large submarines = ripped off from the Japanese.

>>34133334
Epic, just epic.

>>34133334
Atomic bombs were pretty unique.

>>34133334
Jets = ripped off from the Nazis. Rocketry = ripped off from the Nazis. Guided missile technology = ripped off from the Nazis. Flying wings = ripped off from the Nazis.

>>34133359
Using German scientists that were driven out of Germany for being Jewish or related to Jews, though!

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>>34133334
>guaranteed replies

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>>34133334
>>34133366

>>34133051
Imagine swimming in the de riß of what used to be your ship and then a BB plows through the mess at full speed, just a couple of dozen yards away


MASSIVE!!!

>>34133361
Also, AK47 = ripped off from the nazis

>>34133455
Me again. Nuclear bomb = ripped off from the nazis

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TFW you realize that Super Dimension Fortress Macross is an allegorical retelling of World War II from the Japanese perspective - and *we're* the Zentraedi.

>>34133361
jets are british, carriers are Anglo/American. The V-2 was based on an American prewar design. Guided weapons were developed in Both the USA and UK before Germany. Flying wings a parallel development. Fuck I hate summer.

>>34132309
Fuck you, the brits pulled out all the stops and held off the germans, and then were part of Normandy

>>34133527
>jets are british

Why is this spewed around as a fact again and again?

Both Ohain's and Whittle's engines ran within the same month for the first time.

Then the german's Heinkel HE178 flew in 1939 for the first time while the Gloster E28/39 only flew in 1941.

Jets ARE NOT british - if you look at the jet engine its british and german because both countries got their respective engines running at the same time. And if you look at the jet aircraft, the germans beat the british by 2 years to get theirs flying. This has nothing to do with Wehraborism just historical facts

>>34132397
If you've ever been on a fletcher your understand why.

My neighbor was on one from post ww2 to Vietnam. Destroyermen are the navy's navy.

>>34133504
you mean the part about the zentradii nuking earth or the part about the Japanese soothing our hot hearts with a cool island song?

>>34133561
Yeah dude they sure kept Dunkirk safe when they ran like faggots back to king faggot Island

>>34133602
I thought they warmed our cool hearts with a hot island song.

>>34133622
While the French kept the British from being completely overrun, that point is often left out.

>>34133622
Oy vey, what do you have against brits

>>34133634
Let's not forget the Belgians!

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>>34133023
This was ww2. Everybody who wasnt a Nazi had liberal tendencies. Literally not trying to kill and enslave everyone made you liberal.

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>>34132437
Nips treatment of POW(prisoner of war) was really brutal in general, not to mention some crazy shits

>>34133592
>Destroyermen are the navy's navy.


You see this pipe? General MacArthur himself smoked this pipe. I served with him in Leyte Gulf. Biggest naval battle in history. Kamikaze ripped into this escort carrier, name of Saint Lo. She went down on a shallow reef, trapping me and six boys in the fire room. Only one way out. Flood the compartment and swim up.
Five decks, cookie. FIVE (5) FUCKING DECKS.
Locked bulkheads, dead bodies everywhere. You got to have your balls screwed on tight for that swim. We still had intercom. Old MacArthur himself came over that squawk box, "Sunday, you cocky son of a bitch, I bet you can't hold your breath for four minutes and swim out ofthere." Know what I said back ? "No, Mac, I can't, but I'll bet you your cob pipe I can hold it for five, 'cause that's what it's gonna take, motherfucker."

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>>34132463
>jap casualties
>52/30 aircraft

>>34133707
He was no Billy Sunday, but he tuned up plenty of Marines in his 20+ years in the navy.

>>34133643
>Literally not trying to kill and enslave everyone made you liberal.

What the fuck do you think "unconditional surrender" and occupying the enemy to this very day is?

>>34133722
Part of that disparity may be from the catapult aircraft lost board the sunk cruisers.
But that probably doesn't add up to 22 extra.

>>34133227
Hory shiet is that what the Fuso used to look like

>>34133241
>+1 dice to Bomb and Gunnery attacks against selected target

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>>34132184
Because the Allies were literally landing to liberate the Philippines in Leyte and troopships are virtually defenseless.

Taffy 3 went to battle knowing they were virtually fucked but what happened next was one of the greatest mismatches in naval history.

>>34132184
They had to protect the landings

>>34133835
It's quite probable that the explosive shells and bombs of the Americans wrecked the floatplanes on other ships as well. The Yamato carried 7 of them by itself. The other battleships probably carried at least four.

>>34132986

Even if no carries had been present the Yamato would have been swiss cheesed by the 6 BB's and 11 cruisers of TF58 not to mention the THIRTY destroyers present.

I would have been like watching an ice sculpture melt.

>>34132950
>An Iowa might even have been sunk
You realize how bad the Yamato's gunnery was, right?

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>>34133428
Normally ships did not do that, for fear of depth charges going off (underkeel detonations suck), but IIRC Iowa's skipper didn't want to waste time shifting around.
>>34133581
>And if you look at the jet aircraft, the germans beat the british by 2 years to get theirs flying
And it was a maintenance nightmare, with the engines suffering multiple failures at a disturbing rate. Meanwhile, the Brits waited until they had a workable product before mass production commenced.
>>34133361
>Rocketry
Goddard?
>Flying wings
Jack Northrop had one fuckhard fetish for flying wing aircraft. Said fetish kept him alive until the B-2 came around (design phase, not production phase).
XB-35/YB-35?

Fuck, you'd have a better case claiming that America stole their *tank guns* from the Nazis; given how Rheinmetall used to build all the Wehrmacht's heavy tank cannons, and now produces tank cannons for the Abrams...
>>34133622
Britain's power projection was insufficient to hold Dunkirk at that time. Attempting to hold it would bleed their forces white.
>>34133917
Aye.
>>34134161
Hatsuzuki survived the ministrations of multiple capital ships for over an hour before finally sinking, and she was mission- and mobility-killed. What the fuck do you think a BB, which is actually fucking designed to take massive damage and still keep trucking, would do?

>>34134455
>And it was a maintenance nightmare, with the engines suffering multiple failures at a disturbing rate. Meanwhile, the Brits waited until they had a workable product before mass production commenced.


Nice double-dubs but still your argument is invalid because the germans still had the first operational jet-aircraft no matter how shit it was. They were the first one and thats all I wanted to state with my post.

What you are doing now, is moving goal posts

>Yeeaaah they had the first one but that dont matter because the brit's one wuz betta

Dont work like that friend

>>34132437
Be death march in the Philippines bro.

>>34134300
Thank you for bringing this up. It's a point that needs to be emphasized over and over again: The IJN was MASSIVELY incompetent. They had exactly one senior officer who wasn't an absolute fool, and they seemed to have made it a point of pride to never really listen to him. Once he had been killed, the IJN was done for. Listen, Samar should have been a blowout for the Japanese - they should have sent Taffy 3 and every man in it to the bottom in about 15 minutes. Any halfway competent Admiral would have gobbled them up and shit them out like he was Michael Moore at an Old Country Buffet. But Kurita first gets impulsive and sends his ships into action in an improper formation, a decision so bad that it allowed a single destroyer to take two of his cruisers out of action, and another two to get fucked up by - get a load of this - a destroyer escort! And yet even at that, Yamato *still* could have sunk every American ship headed its way singlehandedly if it had pressed an attack, except Kurita has an instant mood swing from reckless to timid and decides to pull a Sir Robin. The whole thing was a shitshow; an unforced own-goal that the IJN has nobody to blame for but themselves.

>>34132184
>No way to attack.
5inch guns can't realistically cause structural damage to something like Yamato or even a heavy cruiser, however they can kill crew, disable secondary gun mounts(which are mostly what would have been firing at DDs anyway) start fires and generally cause confusion and slow down the enemy attack.

More to the point however DDs carry shitloads of torpedoes, relative to their size. Fletchers mounted a pair of Penta-launcers for a total of Ten armed 21 Inch torpedo tubes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_15_torpedo

Each Fletcher was fully capable of sinking the Yamato if it could get close enough to launch accurately. Those DDs and DDEs launched a shitload of torps into the center force and it was those torps, several of which did hit, combined with aerial torpedoes and bombs from the Escort Carriers that convince the Japanese to break off the attack.

As for why, there we're tens of thousands of American soldiers, helpless on transport ships in the bay behind Taffy3, if they had attempted to run(they were too slow to run anyway) those men would have been slaughtered.

>>34134300
Not that bad. Certainly enough to get into a gunfight with an Iowa and stand a decent chance at winning providing it's not night.

>>34134582
They were really inflexible, as lamented by one IJN ace. Senior officers often stubbornly held to traditional ideals, while Americans learned from their mistakes and adapted accordingly.
>>34134627
It's pretty bad if you will compare it to Iowa's. The Yamato can only either fire or maneuver, while the Iowa can do both. The Iowas already demonstrated their blind-fire capabilities on Truk where they scored a couple of straddles on the IJN DD Nowaki at extreme ranges and under high speed maneuvers.

>>34133917

Kinda shows the origins of the Japanese BBs, doesn't it?

They were arguably the best WW1 ships to see action in WW2. If Warspite didn't exist.

>>34134582
>Any halfway competent Admiral would have gobbled them up and shit them out like he was Michael Moore at an Old Country Buffet. But Kurita first gets impulsive and sends his ships into action in an improper formation, a decision so bad that it allowed a single destroyer to take two of his cruisers out of action, and another two to get fucked up by - get a load of this - a destroyer escort!
Also had a heavy cruiser get mission-killed by an escort carrier's aft-mounted 5" - the only naval gun on the entire ship in question...
The only gun kill in history made by a carrier was delivered via a fucking Combustible, Vulnerable, and Expendable jeep, not one of the BB/CC converts or such.
>>34134619
>Each Fletcher was fully capable of sinking the Yamato if it could get close enough to launch accurately.
I wouldn't phrase it that way. Hamper her mobility, yes, but outright sink her? I dunno.

>>34132184
Why give the Japanese a new boat?

Sink the fucker.

>>34134646
>The Iowas already demonstrated their blind-fire capabilities on Truk where they scored a couple of straddles on the IJN DD Nowaki at extreme ranges and under high speed maneuvers.
But they still failed to hit.

>>34135046
Remember USS Stewart...

>>34135047
Scoring straddles is already a great feat considering the conditions, something the Yamatos can never achieve.

>>34133334
We got jazz nigga

>>34133132
Damn those towers are ugly.
>>34132756
China hates WWII Japan actually. Also we had plenty of movies for the battle of Midway.
>>34133334
Carriers were a British idea. Also American carrier design was completely different than Japanese or British.

>>34135107
Meh, I personally would want to have a replica built. Would make for a wonky motel.

>>34135107
>Carriers were a British idea.
but the japanese still built the first carrier

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>>34133007
You can call for military spending all you want, it's just going to dig you deeper into the hole.

>>34135119
Wrong. The Japanese completed the first purpose-built carrier. Both the US and UK had converted carriers already.

Everyone forgot that the USN had radar fire control even in frigates while the Japs still used optical based systems + coloured dyes in shells. At the start of the war, Japs had very good gunnery but radar changed the game completely, allowing puny USN frigates to score hits on BBs while the Jap return fire frequently missed since they thought the frigates were CRUISERS THAT WERE FURTHER AWAY than they actually were. That's right, the frigates were so aggresive that the Jap captains thought they were cruisers and dialed in the wrong range into their guns. Things would be a lot different if Japs had radar too.

>>34135119
The British built the first carrier, yes it was converted but it was still a carrier. The Japanese on the other hand built the first carrier that was actually from day one laid down as a proper carrier.

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>>34135096
No, Russia has Jazz.

>>34132770
Didn't the US surrender in the Philippines?

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>>34132184

>Surrender to Japan
>In fucking 1944
>When you've basically already won the war

At the Battle of Leyte Gulf, the Japanese Imperial Navy was utterly demoralized, and their behavior during the Battle off Samar demonstrates this very clearly. Tameichi Hara explicitly brings up this incident in his book as a point of contrast against what happened at Java Sea. During the Battle of Java Sea, the Allies were demoralized. The shock of Pearl Harbor, along with the unexpected loss of HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse, created an atmosphere of impending doom among the Allied. This hopeless feeling caused the Allies to make numerous sloppy mistakes that cost them the battle. During the Battle Off Samar, the situation was completely reversed. The Imperial Japanese Navy had completely lost all momentum, and morale among the fleet was very low. And the simple fact that the crews of Taffy 3 did what they did should be plenty of evidence that they had no shortage of morale at that point in the war.

Good thread lads.

>American living in Nagoya

It cheeses me right off that Japan's most productive port city doesn't have any naval museums or installations.

>>34132184
Because
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R39SBc9rz5Y

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>>34132612
Corvettes were never really equivalent to Destroyers, as such - in the period where "Torpedo Boat Destroyers" first came about, the three definitions of Frigate, Destroyer, and Corvette were all sort of roughly the same thing, though the defining tendency tended to be that Destroyers were on the larger end.

In the interwar and early WW2 period, where Destroyer tonnages went into the stratosphere, the definitions split apart once again. Corvettes were small, ~sub-1k ton escort/ASW ships, like the ubiquitous Flower class. Slow, too.

Destroyers were becoming big, powerful ships, often over 2k tons, carrying increasingly powerful gun, torpedo, and AA Armaments, among with retaining significant ASW capability. As early as WW2, we were seeing the Destroyer's evolution into powerful jack-of-all-trades warships.

Frigates, which were fundamentally identical to the ships the US called Destroyer Escorts, were somewhere in between. Much more versatile than a corvette, but significantly cheaper and less powerful than a Destroyer (and *much* slower), they were suitable escorts for duties in active convoy zones.

(This is, of course, not accounting for individual national weirdness. For example, the British Sloops like the Black Swan class, which are to all appearances some godawful over-gunned spawn of a typical Frigate and a Corvette. Or the German T-class "Torpedo boats", which despite the classification were functionally equivalent to Destroyers. And so on.)

As far as the cold war goes, The roles remained surprisingly similar - Early on shit got hella muddled as you had transitions from guns to missiles and almost all surface combatants had this freaky hybrid do-any-role capability. ASROC got jammed onto *everything*. While all ships had a measure of Anti-ship capability thanks to missiles, Frigates gravitated back to their ASW focus, while cruisers went hard for either AA or Anti-Ship, and Destroyers solidified their hold on Jack-of-all-trades.

>>34135161
Not strictly correct; the Bongs managed that one with HMS Hermes.

Hosho, while it's commonly held that she was the first as-designed carrier, was originally drawn up and laid down as a hybrid carrier/seaplane tender employing both deck-launched aircraft and floatplanes, before being converted to a full-deck carrier during construction.

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>>34132626

>The fuck is this not a film yet?

No clue. It will happen though. It even has the enemy (Japs) swinging by a sinking destroyer so the Jap captain can salute her. Tell me that's not Grade A, Mel Gibson war movie shit right there.

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>>34132184

I think everyone on /k/ can blame Halsey for Battleship threads. If he had detached even just 4 of his 6 battleships (there was no reason to not detach all 6) to help Kinkaid and his group of light CVE's we'd actually have a full on battleship on battleship engagement on record. Maybe this would have satiated battleshipfags to stop shitposting. Secondarily, if Halsey had reacted he would have absolutely fucking smashed Kurita's group in addition to the four carriers he sunk.

>>34132626

>The fuck is this not a film yet?

Cause nobody would believe it. It would look like propaganda.

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>>34135194
>even implying that American Jazz is not the far superior and quintessential sound

>>34135403
>we'd actually have a full on battleship on battleship engagement on record
What is Surigao Strait
What is Second Guadalcanal

>>34135146
>>34135161
converted jobs don't count

>>34135403
>(there was no reason to not detach all 6)
Ise and Hyuga were attached to Ozawa's carrier group, though.

>>34135473
Yes they do.

>>34135473
Regardless, each country built their carriers very differently. Especially the Yanks, open hangars and all.

>>34135403
Actually the funny thing is that Cape Engano may have been the last Battleship vs Battleship action against Ise and Hyuuga.

>>34135403

In my opinion, battleship construction should have stopped completely after the North Carolina-class was finished.

>>34135573
Other than Churchhill, I'm not sure why the British bothered with Vanguard.

>>34135573
South Dakotas were fuckin' good tho
The Iowa class was unnecessary, I'll give you that.

>>34135485
>Hyuga
>>34135549
>Hyuuga
???

>>34132195
fpbpppp

>>34133561
mfw Dunkirk after having your army illegally off the German border

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>>34135473
>converted carriers don't count as carriers

>>34132195
Japs didn't kill Americans like that anon, especially not dignified opponents like a carrier group. Maybe you're thinking of the Dachau reprisals when the allies killed innocent German guards, many of whom had tried to help and comfort the hopelessly ill Jews that then had to be put into mass graves to prevent their diseases from spreading.

>>34132626
There was very little in public recognition of it till recently.
The whole thing only happened because Halsey charged after some fairly obvious bait. The public loved Bull Halsey, so the whole thing was swept under the rug to avoid shaming him. Most of the survivors were pretty humble about the whole thing too, so you had none of them pushing hard for recognition either.

>>34136104
Some Weaboos are retarded.

>>34135468
Where did he say "only battleship on battleship engagement on Pasific"?

Surigao is hardly a battleship on battleship fight, since the Jap dreadnoughts were already disabled and sinking from the huge amount of torpedoes.

>>34132184
Because when the situation is as fucked as that might as well try to get a few good hits in before you go down, because fuck those guys.

>>34132184
It's actually very hard to hit ships doing evasive maneuvers. The corollary of this is that it's also very hard to hit anything while doing evasive maneuvers. A typical fleet engagement that results in gun hits is the result of both sides "agreeing" to meet in battle. Simply by pulling evasive maneuvers the destroyers could avoid getting hit. Of further note is that concentration fire is very difficult and required a lot of coordination, and under battle conditions was never effectively achieved by more than two ships at a time. Added to this is that there were 400 aircraft involved, and they would had been given far higher priority than a few destroyers.

tl;dr it's hard to get hit if you're not trying to score hits yourself, and they weren't fighting the whole fleet, just whichever ship was allocated to target them at the time, and the IJN would had been more worried about the aircraft that blot out the Sun.

>>34136112
Man you guys sure are good at denying warcrimes. I almost believed you for a second there.

>>34132184

The biggest problem for Japan in this battle was a lack of air cover. In the pacific theater, aviation was king.

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>>34136112

Outside of Russian POWs inside Germany camps, the Western POWs (British and American) under the Japanese control suffered the highest attrition rates in custody.

The mortality rates by nation look like this:

>Bong/American POWs under German control: 4%

Germans used Western POWs for labor and generally treated them well. It also helped that this was reciprocated across the ocean, as nearly 1,000,000 prisoners in Bong and Murican camps throughout the war had the lowest attrition rate.

>(Mostly) German/Italian but also Japanese POWs under Anglo-Americunts: <1%

Japanese prisoners were pretty low in numbers. Both because burgers didn't really like to take them, but also because the Japs didn't like the surrender. US brass considered this a problem and started several education programs as to why it's good to take slant eyed prisoners instead of bayoneting them on the field. Nonetheless, once Japs made it to American camps they did as well as the other prisoners.

The white man did not do well in Japanese camps:

>Bong/American POWs under Japanese: 25-33% mortality rate

I think you're right in that it's a little more likely to be treated better by the IJN, but once you got to the camps life was still pretty shit. Worse than sure death? Depends on the day. Like this guy said >>34135372 it seems the Jap naval commander has respect for Taffy 3's actions.

What's sad is that it took over two days for Americans to locate the sailors of lost ships. They were literally eaten by sharks and died in droves waiting for help. If I recall the Wiki even states that US recon planes found the men in the water, but radio'd back the wrong place on the map.


We're off topic from the thread, but just for good measure here's the mortality rates for the Eastern front:

>Soviets POWs under German control: 58% mortality
>German POWs under Soviet control: 36%

Because the USA is not French.

>>34137268
one of the reasons why I never lose a wink of sleep nuking those little yellow motherfuckers.

Fuck Japs.

>>34132580
There was also this fucker

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Li_Wo

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>>34132184
>Surrendering
>To the Japanese

>>34137268
It's funny, a number of POW camps in the US for German soldiers actually worked on the honor system. Many were given work on local farms and were just expected to be back at the camp by sun down. A number of Georgian towns swelled in population after the war because of Germans wanting to settle down there.

I always thought that was fascinating.

>>34137475

Yes. Many were paid a small wage and some even given things like working with delivery vehicles. Where they would cover the logistics for the camp and be free to ride to pick up goods to deliver to camps and businesses that catered to them.

I remember an anecdote where a German did try to escape from some camp out in the mid west. He made it some miles, but was reported by a farmer or something. I forget who the source was, probably a sheriff, but he felt bad for the guy because he was so out of his element. He had no idea how many thousands of miles away he was from home.

>>34137452
>A fucking riverboat taking out a navy transport and nearly getting another one while being shelled by a LC and two destroyers
>Fucking 13 rounds of ammunition and two infantry lmg's taking down a carrier

How can any navy be this incompetent?
Its like getting stung by a bee and exploding

>>34137430
It's not like the Japanese didn't want to kill filthy enemies who were such covards to surrender, but many of their own soldiers were already dying from malnutrition and diseases, so for prisoners it was of course worse.

>>34132184
Combat ships didn't surrender very often on sea.
In such situation the Japanse would have likely shot most of the surrendering Americans in their boats.
What do you think the Americans had done with the commanders who had ordered such a massive surrender?

>>34137452
>a fucking riverboat takes down two naval transport ships with a 4-inch cannon, a pair of LMGs and ramming
>took shelling from not one but two destroyers to sink
Japan what the fuck.

>>34137550
>shelled by a LC
>taking down a carrier
What is wrong with you anon?

>>34137607
I meant taking down a transport
Fuck
LC is Light Cruiser

>>34137622
>not CL

>>34137622
Light Cruiser is abbreviated as CL, you fucking idiot.

>>34137602
It doesn't really say if the transport had any armament to defend themselves and how far the destroyers and that light cruiser initially were.
Also doesn't say if the second transport sank.

>>34137520
>found one escapee in a tree hiding from an angry bull
>another found singing marching songs walking down the side of a highway
>group made a boat to somehow paddle across the atlantic to get home despite being nowhere near either ocean.
I loved reading those stories

>>34132184
Naval combat, and to an extent, all naval tradition, is bizarre in aspect because of dire necessity of succes, for all parties. Especially when your shooting artillery at each other, the totality of being in the middle of the pacific ocean and the lack of your probable individual survival mean that you have to work as a team, and do your job as hard as possible. Which means the CO and the crew are all willing to engage in actions that seem like madness on the ground, where you might be able to pull back, regroup, or some such other activity.

>>34137452
Stuff like this is incredible. Though thoughts of the ship's commander pretty much forcing his men to their deaths sometimes pop up, you also usually realize they couldn't just turn tail and run away.

Another great tale of naval incompetence (or mismatched heroism depending what side you view it from) is this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dr%C3%B8bak_Sound
>Germans invading Norway
>Heavy Cruiser Blücher leading German advance towards Oslo
>Sail past old fortress and think it cannot possibly be a threat
>It is a threat
>Blücher gets torpedoed and sunk by naval fortress

>>34137710

>all those stories

they could make a MASH-style comedy show about all these anecdotes

>>34137268
and how many Bong/Aussie/American nurses were raped by the Japs? Japs can't resist that vanilla.

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>Crossing the T

>>34132184
Because if they didn't delay the Japanese, the escort carriers would have been fucked, and all the marines on the beach would have been slaughtered. They didn't need to win, they just needed to buy some time for Nimitz to get his head out of his ass

its callrd having titanium fucking testicles

>>34133111
They tied cememnt to captured pilots feet and threw them overboard

>>34138278
That was so the Americans would be anchored to one spot and easy to find by rescuers and not lost adrift.
(This is a joke)

>>34133111

The Japanese Navy once tied several dozen people to the outside of a submarine and then had it descend so they'd all drown.

>>34138396
their lungs would pop before they drowned. what happens when you descend to fast idk

>>34137475
Where the fuck were they gonna go?

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>>34138540
じーっ

>>34138737
is that pic from like a thing?

>>34133334

Operation paperclip

Just stop. Also did Americans invent gunpowder?

>>34138758
Touhou.

>>34132278
That's like asking if you prefer Kate Upton's left or right breast, they're both awesome.

Samuel B. Roberts probably takes it though for the fact that it was only a DE.

>>34133182

DESU the passage height under the Great Belt Bridge is 65 metres (about 215 burger units), and there are ships like Savannah of the Seas, and Majestic Mærsk who can only pass underneath it when folding their funnel.

Of course those aren't battleships, but it really gives you an idea of how big ships are today, and how small ships in WWII were. Not that size matters, except in the case of carriers.

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Because men like this were there.

"This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."

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We ain't pussies?

>>34134455

Hatsuzuki was a fluke, the Bismark was set upon by two BB's and two Cruisers she was unable to effectively fight back.

With the amount of fire that would be poured on Yamato it would have lost all ability to fight back very quickly and would have been, for all intents and purposes, dead, it just would have taken some time for the ship to realize it.

In the end, the Japanese lost WWII because the Americans were fighting to win a war and the Japanese were fighting to have the right feels. The typical Japanese mindset of fatalism mixed with gooey sentimentality was precisely the wrong mindset to bring to a 20th century war. All that bullshit about honor and nobility and tradition didn't get them jack shit. It was a hindrance instead of a help - telling your best men to die pointlessly instead of living to fight another day is a way to lose a war hard, and fast, and they did.

>>34133313
Jesus Christ. Who the fuck suggested genocide through starvation? They have a brother get Bataan'd, or a sister made a comfort woman?
I can see until surrender kind of like the blockade of Germany sort of did in WW1, but extinction ?

>>34140257

It does sound a bit far-fetched and I don't know if I believe it.

A way more crazy plan that was undoubtedly real was during the planning for Operation Olympic the US proposed and made plans for dropping 7 atomic bombs on the beaches of Kyushu then land troops in full hazmat kit on those very same beaches.

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gambier bay gets royally fucked as the task force can do nothing but watch.

>>34140394
>>34140415
If we ever invent time machines we need to go back to battles like this and bring hi-def cameras.
A lot of the time you just see a blotch as a ship. Or, if you're lucky, a silhouette on one.

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>>34140257

Doing some quick research, Operation Starvation did indeed occur, but the idea that they were trying to exterminate all of Japan is frankly silly. Minefields were placed around Japan, and submarines were used to sink merchant ships. But that all stopped as soon as Japan surrendered. They weren't trying to exterminate anybody.

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>>34140427
dumping rares.

One of few pictures of Yamato firing its main battery, here she's firing on taffy 3, either gambier bay or white plains.

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Yamato salvo lands off white plains, Yamato is 20 miles away.

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18" shells just miss Gambier bay

>>34132184
Taffy 3 did a good job like a great navy should do despite the odds, Adm. Kurita should be all to blame for the IJN's defeat in this battle, he's a complete wuss to call off the battle and retreat despite the firepower advantage, not only did he disgraced every single sailor and navy officers under his command, but also the Japanese homeland as well for retreating which is considered a dishonorable action that definitly destroyed their fighting morale

>>34133027
I wounder if Hiroyuki Nishimura's ancestors fought in the battle?

>>34136863
>aircraft that blot out the Sun
I thought Taffy3 only had escort carriers with 25% of the planes of a regular carrier. Wasn't the total plane count less than 400 and those with no real antiship weapons?

>>34138540
Some tried to escape and make their way to Argentina.. didn't work too well

>>34137674
>>a fucking riverboat

>>34140641

The Japanese Center Force had zero carriers though. So even though the Escort Carriers in Taffy 3 were small and slow, they were still pretty much working unopposed against an enemy with no air cover. If there is any lesson to be taken from the Pacific theater, it is that if you want to control the ocean, you must first control the sky above it.

>>34140723
battleship queers curled up in the fetal position

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>>34133132

>>34140740

Things might have been a little different if Japanese ships had radar-guided fire control for their AA guns, though. Perhaps not radically different, but at least American aircraft would have had to attack in greater numbers to be effective. The Yamato and Musashi were both covered in AA guns, especially the former, but both were taken out by aircraft rather easily because their anti-aircraft fire simply wasn't effective. Very few American aircraft were hit during the fight against Yamato. It was essentially a one-sided battle. American ships in the same war tended to be far more successful in terms of actually being able to defend against aircraft.

>>34132351
Not securing enough stable fuel products and raw materials income or having a sufficient strategic reserve -> watching your entire merchant marine get slowly but surely destroyed by USN SSKs, but for some reason not developing competent convoy and ASW tactics -> further reduced fuel and strategic materials supplies -> leaving your most competent enlisted and officer personnel on the front lines until they die rather than rotating them home to train new recruits before sending them out again -> constant and growing shortfalls in readiness -> not having enough fuel and supplies to adequately maintain training and readiness in the IJN (Hotel Yamato, for example), much less reasonably train replacements -> complete collapse

It's a hell of a vicious cycle, and it's very similar to what happened to both the IJA and IJN air forces over the course of the war. This is of course further exacerbated by the fact that the US had an economy 17 times the size of Japan's in 1939, so they were already starting way, way behind in strategic logistics concerns.

Japan never really had a chance. However, the IJN of 1940 and the IJN of 1944 are two very, very different animals. By Samar and Surigao, the IJN was already well into collapse, but in 1942 they were a tough, determined force which only compared unfavorably to the USN in radar directed fire control, remote power control turrets and damage control (while having superior torpedoes, optical fire control and overall readiness levels and training).

>>34140723
The escort carriers sis not have proper ordnance. They were an ASW force so at most they had depth charges and 100lb anti-personnel bombs. They dropped them and strafed the Jap ships, but they had to go to a land airfield to get AP bombs and torpedoes.

>>34140257
It wouldn't be the military's first time starving people to death

>>34140758
I just, literally, did a spit-take.

>>34136164

"THE WORLD WONDERS" was a well known story to me even as a kid.

>TURKEY TROTS TO WATER GG FROM CINCPAC ACTION COM THIRD FLEET INFO COMINCH CTF SEVENTY-SEVEN X WHERE IS RPT WHERE IS TASK FORCE THIRTY FOUR RR THE WORLD WONDERS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_world_wonders

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>>34140917

Anybody who seriously thinks that Japan could have won WW2 in the Pacific theater needs to take a good hard look at this. Japan was always short on essential items that it needed to fight a proper war. Tameichi Hara talks about this in his book. Even during the very first year, Japanese captains were under orders to conserve ammunition as much as possible. The IJN usually had to skip shore bombardment when landing soldiers simply because it was seen as a non-essential use of ammunition. Even simply things like range-finding shots were heavily discouraged. Japanese gunners were always told that they had to hit during the very first salvo without doing any preliminary range-finding shots. How is anybody supposed to fight a war like that?

>>34135623

The South Dakotas were good but unnecessary. The US really just needed a few BB's to handle shore bombardment and that's about it. For some reason, I have an attachment to the North Carolina's and I kind of wish that they had been the last U.S. battleships ever built.

>>34135623
>>34141093
6 knots. The Iowa class was 6 knots faster than the North Carolinas. It doesn't seem like much but that' the difference in speed between ww2 destroyers and destroyer escorts. It also meant that the Iowa's could keep up with Fletchers at full steam.
I don't know about you guys but I don't mind having battleships alongside destroyers in a fight.

>>34141203

It's more like every battleship you build uses up a lot of material that would have been better used in making more carriers. There also isn't much benefit to the faster speed of the Iowa-class because in practice they'll just be used for shore bombardment anyway. And that's a good enough reason to keep them around, in my opinion, but you don't need a large number of them, and they don't need to be any faster than the North Carolina-class ether. I stand by my assertion that battleship construction should have stopped completely after BB-56 Washington was completed.

>>34137710
a small group in arizona tried to boat down the salt or gila river only to find the river is dry most of the time

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>>34132293

Time.

>>34137710

my personal favorite is this one.

> More audacious was the escape of Opelika prisoner Hans Peter Fuhrmann in February 1944. it is unclear how he escaped the American military police guarding him, but within two days he somehow traveled from Opelika to Montgomery, some sixty miles distant. While still wearing part of his Wehrmacht uniform, Fuhrmann went into the state capitol to the office of Alabama Public Service Commission. There he asked a secretary, in what was described as "good, but accented English," about the address of the nearest consular office of the Spanish government, apparently hoping that an official from this neutral (if pro-German) nation might be able to smuggle him home. The secretary alerted her supervisor, Public Service Commissioner Gordon Persons, who quietly contacted the Montgomery FBI office and local police while Fuhrmann waited patiently for the address of the Spanish consul. Police quickly arrived and returned him to Camp Opelika. (44)

The story is just so quintessentially German.

>>34137733
>torpedoed by a fucking building

>>34141324

The 33 knot Iowa requirement was a direct response to the Kongos.

In pre-war planning, the Kongo class was a big headache to the US planners, because they could theoretically outrun everything they can't outgun, and the ability for planes to kill battleships on the high seas wasn't proven yet. The fear was that the Kongos would conduct hit and run attacks on the US supply lines as called for in War Plan Orange.

Keep in mind that ships taking a fucking long time to design and build. The design committee and specifications for the Iowas were drawn up in 38, the Iowa was laid down in June 40, and commissioned Feb 43. This is actually remarkably fast for a battleship, because the Iowa is in essence, a stretched South Dakota.

>>34141537
40 year old torpedoes that nobody was sure would even work.
The gun crews were also untrained recruits who managed to hit both of the two shits they fired.

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>>34136112
Always look for a reason to post this.

>>34140855
Yamato and Musashi had 2/5ths the AA throw weight of the Iowas or South Dakotas. Radar directed gunnery and effective proximity shells would have been a great help, but they still wouldn't have been as dangerous to an attacking aircraft force as an Iowa or South Dakota.

If Tirpitz, Bismark, Yamato, and Musashi had been equipped to equal an Iowa or South Dakota in AAA, the carrier admirals would have been a lot less willing to decide that Battleships had no utility in the post war era.

Sure, they still wouldn't have stayed the queens of the fleet, the Aircraft carrier's ability to attack at far longer ranges would have still guaranteed their supremacy, but an Iowa or a South Dakota would have been a harder nut to crack by an order of magnitude than any Axis Battleship, at least from the air.

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>>34141577

I understand what you're saying, that it is easy to criticize in hindsight. Nobody really new just how easy it was for aircraft to kill battleships until after what happened with Prince of Wales. Most people wrote off Pearl Harbor as a surprise attack. The sinking of HMS Prince of Wales was shocking because it was a fully aware battleship being overcome by aircraft. In his book, Tameichi Hara specifically mentions this incident and remembers that he was genuinely baffled as to how a battleship could be sunk so easily by planes. When Prince of Wales entered the combat area, there were two Kongo battleships nearby that were scrambled to intercept her, and he was very concerned that they wouldn't be able to defeat the British battleship because of their comparatively thin armor. Instead, she went down before they could even reach the target. When news came of the ship being sunk, he was more confused than relieved by the news.

I will always remember
>one .38 caliber handgun

>>34141765
The Brits had terrible compartment and magazine discipline. They lost dozens of ships that should have survived.

>>34141886

Isn't that the exact same problem that occurred for the battlecruisers at Jutland and also why HMS Hood went down in one hit? Seems kinda weird to keep making this same mistake over and over again, especially for the world's most experienced navy.

>>34141701
>If Tirpitz, Bismark, Yamato, and Musashi had been equipped to equal an Iowa or South Dakota in AAA, the carrier admirals would have been a lot less willing to decide that Battleships had no utility in the post war era.
Yup. There's a reason why every single Iowa class ever finished is still afloat somewhere. Also, people who say that the battleship is obsolete because it's too vulnerable to aircraft act like there haven't been any advances in AA since 1940.

>>34141993
By the Navy's own estimation of the combat effectiveness improvements that radar AA gun laying and proximity fuses wrought in our own fleet, an Iowa was over 20 times more effective in it's own AA defense than Yamato, and Yamato was the Axis battleship with the best anti-air defensive suite. Tirpitz and Bismark really suffered compared even to Yamato. The Swordfish that crippled Bismark would have been shredded by American equivalent AA, with shells detonating in proximity to their engine blocks/propeller disks instead of passing through their fabric structure.

It wouldn't have been precisely war changing, nor would it have prevented all Battleship air-losses, but it would have made these ships much harder nuts to crack.

>>34132737
1943 was towards the end of the war. You forget that WWII started in the early 30s.

>>34141908

Culture I guess.

The Royal Navy has been in the school of "gotta shoot fast" since before Trafalgar, and it's won them innumerable battles. The enemy can't kill you if you kill them first. When push came to shove, they fell back to their old mentality of "gotta shoot fast" and suffered for it in the age of modern naval combat.

That mentality still lives on. I met an old Abrams loader who told me that back during the 80's, they would have disabled the ammo rack doors when the Soviets came pouring through the Fulda gap. Keeping the ammo doors open would have negated the safety from the blowout panel, but it would have saved 2-3 seconds off the loading cycle. A thing he said he could do was one round in the chamber, one round in the hand, and 1 round near his foot. When the tank crested from turret down to hull down, they'd loose 3 rounds within about 8 seconds, then back off and repeat in another firing position. If it worked they got a lot of dead soviet tanks, if they received a turret penetration everybody died.

>>34142701
>That mentality still lives on. I met an old Abrams loader who told me that back during the 80's, they would have disabled the ammo rack doors when the Soviets came pouring through the Fulda gap. Keeping the ammo doors open would have negated the safety from the blowout panel, but it would have saved 2-3 seconds off the loading cycle. A thing he said he could do was one round in the chamber, one round in the hand, and 1 round near his foot. When the tank crested from turret down to hull down, they'd loose 3 rounds within about 8 seconds, then back off and repeat in another firing position. If it worked they got a lot of dead soviet tanks, if they received a turret penetration everybody died.
They called it battle carrying. It works well.

And I wouldn't say keeping the door open shaved off 2-3 seconds on a given reload. Maybe a half second. Which is significant.

>>34141577
Actually that was true for all new classes of Battleships North Carolina to Iowas were all designed to counter Kongos. We thought Kongos could only go 26 knots.

>>34135253
How's being an American living in Japan? My cousin and his wife have visited a few times and they love it.

Being a bit weebish I'd like to visit sometime, but I'm debating between Japan and fucking off in Europe for a few weeks. Europe's main selling point is super cheap hostels and transportation is I can go anywhere for cheap.

>>34143007
Not him, but I'd go to Europe. You get to see a LOT more. Plus you'll find people who speak proper English everywhere except Paris. Although most speak English and only pretend not to because they hate your guts.

>>34143007
Europe is a more tourist friendly place. Just don't be fat and dumb.

>>34136112
They fucking ate people in ritual murders

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>>34132463
>>34133959
>>34133973
This, it was essential to protect the landings. The battle was just a few miles west of Samar. My grandfather was on one of the command ships coordinating the landings.

http://web.nmsu.edu/~pauberve/rmountar.htm
>Tradition has it that headquarters units are usually safe in the rear of advancing forces. But amphibious admirals are where the fighting is. Flagships sail at the head of transports and take position near landing beaches where operations can be closely watched.

>Converted from a Maritime commission C-2 hull, the Rocky Mount and her sister ships are floating office building and hotel combined. They are equipped with more communications gear than most land-based radio stations. Bombardment and air cover for invasions are controlled directly from their plotting rooms. Future operations are planned in their conference rooms.

>Reconnaissance photos of landing beaches, taken by aircraft to obtain the latest information on enemy movements and defenses are picked up at sea, developed and charted in the ship's photographic laboratory in the last hours before H-Hour.

>There's comfort and self-sufficiency on an AGC: two stores, an ice cream bar, two barber shops, a tailor and cobbler shop, fast-service laundry and wardrooms the size of average restaurants.

>The ship housed one of the strangest anomalies in the service: an Army Signal Corps detachment the spent all of its time at sea. One army officer sadly confessed that he enlisted in the Army instead of the Navy because he didn't want to go to sea.

>"The Rock" is also a warship: she carries her allowance of guns. At Leyte she assisted in shore bombardment of Jap mortar positions. At Leyte, Lingayen and Brunei Bay she helped fend off Jap planes. But shooting is a subordinate function for a ship whose safety depends on anonymity. Often the toughest punishment for gun crews was watching the combat ships up their scores of Jap planes downed and ships sank

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>>34133455
In a round about way, yes

>>34135253
Does Kure have naval museums? What about Yokusaka?

>>34143053
>>34143069
Cool. I did Paris as a teen with an uncle who was a duel citizen. Everybody was pretty okay so long as you at least bothered to make an attempt to start the conversation in French. Usually a hello, and a "I don't speak French, do you speak English" and they warmed right up.

Not going to lie, Paris beat the fuck out of London. Though next time I'd like to hit Germany and some of the Scandinavian countries. Really anywhere with friendly people and a good drinking culture.

>>34143223
>Paris
All I remember was it had a lot of nice buildings that would have been better off in a cleaner, less french city.

>>34143223
Went back in 2013, was super touristy but alright. Better than London by miles.

Went again in December, streets filed with garbage and was swarmed nearly everywhere by migrants begging for money. Did get to see some of them trash a cop car while the cops more or less ran, which made me chuckle.

>>34143288
>Paris
Great Architecture, great museum's- though all in French because fuck you everyone who's not French-, and amazing food.

Granted this was over a decade ago.

>>34135253
You're in Nobunaga's city. He never had much of a fleet so they probably don't care about anything that floats on the water.

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>>34141503
>There he asked a secretary, in what was described as "good, but accented English," about the address of the nearest consular office of the Spanish government

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>>34143329
>MFW nobunaga would disapprove the retardation of the IJA and IJN
Was he to good for japan?

Now that te dust has settled. Is Nippon steel better and stronger than Filthy Gaijin steel?

>>34143482
Given how he got betrayed... yes.
His successor tried to take over Korea, but got shut down, repeatedly, by the numerically-challenged Korean fleet, which was rebuilt from near-scratch TWICE during the war.

>>34138235
>They didn't need to win, they just needed to buy some time for Halsey to get his head out of his ass
>ftfy
Nimitz was all the way back at fucking USN Pacific HQ, in fucking Hawai'i, when the Battle off Samar went down.
Nimitz was the officer that pinged Halsey, asking (paraphrased) where the fuck his task force fucked off to with all the battleships.

>>34138396
b-b-but that was only one sub out of over a hundred!

>>34140257
Army was sick-n-tired of slogging round Pacific islands getting bled white digging out Japanese garrisons. They were seriously fucking leery at the prospect of invading Japan's home islands. Think Afghanistan, only without the 12 hour drone surveillance, fast-moving *precision* air support, and absolutely no friendlies amongst the local population.
>>34140338
>then land troops in full hazmat kit
Some of the sources I've read concerning Olympic (aka Op. Downfall, Part 1) had the landings taking place a mere hour-and-half after the nukes were dropped. One source (read about 8 years back), IIRC, stated that the plan was 'as soon as the blast wave dissipates, deployment is greenlit'.
>>34140432
>But that all stopped as soon as Japan surrendered. They weren't trying to exterminate anybody.
Keyword: as soon as Japan surrendered. And even then there was a mad scramble by the US Army Corps of Engineers to fix the infrastructure fast enough so that non-insignificant fractions of Japan's population didn't fucking starve to death.
Had Japan not surrendered when they did, well...

>>34141203
>battleships alongside destroyers in a fight
/torpedo bait

>>34144462
There was one experimental plate that seemed to be really good but other than that no. This experimental plate was not used on any of their ships.

>>34142518
So why aren't they active today?

>>34137733
>Poor nords didnt even know if they were supposed to fire or the identity of the fleet approaching.
>Upon being ordered to fire the men questioned the orders. The nord commander at the base responded:
>either I will be decorated or court martialed, FIRE!

Badass mother fucker.

>>34137753
tons of Japanese were raped by the Allies as well, a lot more than Japan ever raped actually

>>34142701
Brits are kinda notorious in military history for adhering to shitty SOPs and blaming personel for not being stalwart enough when they fail.

They spent nearly 200 years losing sailors from scurvy because they believed it was quote "a debility born from weakness and cowardice"

Fucking eskimos figured out how to not get scurvy in an evironment almost totally devoid of vegetation, british explorers tried to capitalize on it but were basically met with scorn and a general "nope, hardtack and rancid soup in lead cans is all a REAL sailor needs to be healthy!"

Traditionally brits have been better at building and deployibg lots of big ships via pressganging and conscription to bury the enemy in a pile of cannons and underpaid conscripts than actually being great at adopting new methods and tech.

Its the craziest fuckin shit too, cuz they were awesome at pioneering new shit, but then a bunch of grumpy faced 60 year old desk admirals would declare that in THIER glory days they didnt need it so neither do these uppity whipper-snappers today, they just need to toughen up like real sailors of her majesty's navy dammnit!

>>34132642

At the time of Pearl Harbor, the Imperial Japanese Navy consisted of 10 battleships, 6 fleet carriers, 6 escort carriers, 18 heavy cruisers, 20 light cruisers, 126 destroyers, 68 fleet submarines, 50 midget submarines, 90 patrol craft, 6 minelayers, 42 minesweepers, and 55 auxiliary ships.

>>34142772
Im just gonna toss something out there tank loader related
>be me, marine TOW gunner, bout 8 years ago
>4 abrams Tanks, 4 TOW humvees from infantry heavy weapons company
>tanks and us decide to do a MASSIVE range cuz its 29 palms so why the fuck not?
>buncha old M60 hulls piled up out there
>each humvee gets 3 missiles for total of 12
>tanks got full magazine
>1,000 meters
>tanks required to score 12 direct hits, tows 12 direct hits as well
>TOWS score all 12 direct hits within 3 minutes
>tanks spent 35 minutes expending all ordinance
>only hit 6 targets

Granted personel are a big factor and we were literally the USMC's best rated heavy weapons unit that year, plus I might have some bias as an ATGM operator but quite frankly I wasnt very impressed with tanks ability to get rounds on target. Our missiles both outranged their main guns, and were more accurate, plus we could actually cover more ground faster with a lower target profile.

>>34143053
American in germany right now. Its not bad. Germans generally talk shit bout muricuh until they meet one then they change their minds pretty quick.

I guess my german accent sounds danish americans almost never go to the ruhr area so im the first most have met. Lots of neat old castles here an shit. Folks kinda just try to pretend WW2 didnt happen though so its really hard to find ww2 history here.

>>34144972
Because they are very obsolete. They are 70 years old now, and it isn't like they were modular designs. They don't have enough power generation, they don't have enough automation, their wiring is fucked by modern standards, their power plants are ancient and maintenance intensive, spare parts availability is shit because some of the suppliers have been out of business for 60 years, and our WWII era stockpile of propellants for the 16 inch guns is deteriorating, but no one makes replacement powder.

I'm not saying that reactivating the Iowas and South Dakotas is a good idea, what I'm saying is that if Yamato, Musashi, and Bismarck had savaged attacking aircraft like an Iowa or South Dakota could, that there would have been some cold war era battleships that were closer to modern, because Battleships would have retained a lot of their prestige.

They probably still wouldn't have been the most cost effective use of resources, but they could be made survivable and effective.

>>34145343
Its true. Every child born in Japan since 1945 has been the product of Allied rape

>>34133581
Funny thing here, the first jet has been built in 1910 by a romanian freak with weird ideas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coandă-1910

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>>34132184
>tfw my Grandpa was there
>40mm gun commander on Gambier Bay
>He said at the end he just said fuck it and started shooting right at the closest cruiser with it

He said his buddy actually DID shit himself before the battle when he looked with his binoculars and realized the battleships on the horizon has pagodas and not radar directors.

>>34132642
>>34132626
>>34132463
>>34132278


>That time the USS White Plains hit a Japanese heavy cruiser and disabled it with it's ONE 5 inch gun

>During the surface phase of the action,White Plains's 5-inch gun crew claimed six hits onheavy cruiserChōkai,[2]causing its eight deck-mountedType 93 "Long Lance" torpedoesto explode. The explosion crippledChōkai, making it vulnerable to air attack.

>>34145620
You mean that guy whose dtory changed every time he retold it, could never furnish witnesses of the flight and couldnt present a protype because it "completeley burned into nithing?" (Not to mention didnt come out of the wood-work to make such claims until well after jets were a regular thing several decades later)

Im pretty skeptical.

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>>34145703
>couldnt present a protype
Can't you fucking read?
>The unusual aircraft attracted attention at the Second International Aeronautical Exhibition in Paris in October 1910, being the only exhibit without a propeller

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>>34132184
Great Read, Those guys were true American Fighting men, the US Navy's finest hour.

>>34145777
Did it fly?

>>34132333
The Japanese were convinced they were fighting a much larger, more heavily armed force than they realized, this was due in no small part to the resistance they encountered from the Americans.

>>34132397
In the US Navy in WWII between Corvettes (PT Boats) and Destroyers, you would have Destroyer Escorts, what we now classify as Frigates, like the Oliver Hazard Perry Class (FFG-7)

>>34145855
According to witnesses, yes, briefly, before crashing due to totally imbecilic control systems and the creator doing the flying himself, despite not having any flight training whatsoever at that point.

>>34132397
Served on a carrier myself, we were considered the "Brown Shoe Navy" because we were Aviation, The Tin Can guys were the "Black Shoe Navy', Surface warfare, some of the older guys still saw Carriers and Aviation as a novelty. They are the true old school Navy, but I'm glad I didn't have to ride out 30ft swells in the South China Sea in a tin can, my carrier was bobbing around like a cork, I can only imagine the hell of a Frigate or Destroyer in seas like that.

>>34145507
Yeah, but the Japs don't mind, they reproduce exclusively through rape anyway.

In fact the word for marriage in Japanese is literally "rape-togetherness" (奸统).

>>34141503
Oh, Germany. Even at your worst, the beer is always good and the trains arrive on time.

>>34137753
They were just saying hello

>>34132309

Delicious TayTay.

>>34145964
how does the tentacles factor into it?

>>34132293
He's not wrong. The Eurocucks to this day have surrendered their countries to the immigrant/Muslim animals. Look at Britain

>>34132653
Michael Bay?? Oh hell no!! That short attention span jack ass would totally fuck up a truly great, heroic WWII story and turn it into a clown circus ala "Pearl Harbor".

>>34146067
"THIS SUMMER, A WW2 NAVY MOVIE WITH A LOVE TRIANGLE THAT TOTALLY ISNT PEARL HARBOR!"

(Cuts to scene of two all american farm hands on a burning ship)

>ah shore do say chuck, we ourghtta open fahr on them thar japaneses!"
>but bob, you dun fucked my girl mary-lou you no good scumbag!
>yeah, but were bruthars sos we gots ta team up against them evil japaneses!
>I might hate you for romantic reasons but godammit I respect you! lets take over the gun control panel an light em up!
(Massive multicolored explosions as the 5 inch guns fire at a ludicrous rate utterly oblitorating dozens of japanese ships as the two cut loose rebel yells)

THIS SUMMER, TWO GUYS WHO FUCK THE SAME GIRL WILL SOLVE THEIR DIFFERENCES AND...... SINK THE YAMATO!!!

(Sink the yamato is a michal bay movie based on real life events, in theaters this summer)

>>34145700
The Cruiser Suzuya also sank because of near miss. In the end putting torpedoes on cruisers was the wrong idea for the Pacific just as the USN predicted and feared.

>>34141765
Is it just me or would the KGV class have looked a lot better with 3x3 14in guns instead of quads and a twin?

>>34147992

You're not alone there. The original intent was to have 3 x quad-turrets but it was found that they couldn't fit that many guns into the design without going above the maximum displacement allowed by the Washington Treaty. So instead of redesigning all the turrets into triples, they elected to just reduce the number of guns in one of the turrets.

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>>34145380
Tfw this anon lives the life I have always dreamed of

>I just want to gun for a IFV

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>>34145507
actually there was pretty much 0 rape babies. 99% were aborted and the few that were born were often smashed or beaten to death with or on rocks.

>>34145441
Oh, I was talking about Parisians.

>>34140546
>he's a complete wuss to call off the battle and retreat despite the firepower advantage,
No, he did the right thing. Center force wouldn't have lasted more than 5 hours with all the American air power in the area. Not to mention submarines. And the landing forces would have ample warning to gtfo. None of his objectives were achievable after his big bad battle group was finally fucking derailed by a DE and destroyer.

"Darter and Dace traveled on the surface at full power for several hours and gained a position ahead of Kurita's formation, with the intention of making a submerged attack at first light. This attack was unusually successful. At 05:24, Darter fired a blast of six torpedoes, at least four of which hit Kurita's flagship, the heavy cruiser Atago. Ten minutes later, Darter made two hits on Atago's sister ship, Takao, with another spread of torpedoes. At 05:56, Dace made four torpedo hits on the heavy cruiser Maya (sister to Atago and Takao).
Atago and Maya quickly sank.[11] Takao turned back to Brunei, escorted by two destroyers—and was followed by the two submarines.
Atago sank so rapidly that Kurita was forced to swim to survive. He was rescued by the Japanese destroyer Kishinami, only then to be transferred to the battleship Yamato"
Kirtia fucking new it was over since he already had his ass thrown into the water and lost 3 ships in his force of 32 THANKS TO TWO FUCKING AMERICAN SUBS. YES TWO SUBS ATTACKED A FORCE OF 32 JAP SHIPS, SANK 3, AND FUCKING GOT AWAY WITH IT. THEN HIS FORCE GOT FUCKING TANGLES UP FOR HOURS BY TWO BALLSY AS FUCK CAPTAINS IN SMALL SHIPS.

INJ SUCKED.