/k/, why do instructors both government and private still teach

>>34116206
How should they do it?

>>34116220
He doesn't know, just starting a slide thread

File: Right way.png (108KB, 1200x1250px) Image search: [Google]

108KB, 1200x1250px

>>34116220
I was right about to post it

>>34116206
>anon posts some bullshit about "conventional" CQB that is factually incorrect
>hurr limited penetration strawmanning

also, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyvw3Qu8k3A

>>34116232
This isn't /pol/, retard

>>34116234
What if they shoot the door?

>>34116234
>door as concealment
nigga you realize there's a crack where the door meets the frame that people can see through

and why would the guy behind the door stay still and wait for you while you fill in his buddy with 5.56

>>34116257
how they even know that someone is concealing himself behind that door? considering they're not blind firing

>>34116234
I don't get it. Wouldn't the guy behind the door kill the guy coming into the room as soon as he heard him come in and stand in the doorway with his back to him? Or are you just assuming that defenders are static and deaf with the eyesight of Metal Gear Solid genome soldiers?

>>34116252
>airsofters
Disregarded

>>34116271
>crack between frame and door
>not being deaf
>not being blind

>>34116272
>>34116262
Not if the attacker if fast enough

if the attacker cleared most of the room by pieing from the outside, that only leaves him a couple of small corners which he can clear fast enough just by peeking and shooting, then moving on to the next opposite corner behind the door

>>34116206
That's ideal. Sometimes you gotta 2 man bump from the same side.

Plus there is ALWAYS the risk the first man in doing a breach is the most likely to get shot. That's known, that's a fact. When I was the first man in instead of the second my adrenaline was always higher.

>>34116234
There's two other corners in that room that your boy isn't looking at, and would have to clear before getting to the dude on the other side of the door, giving the defenders an advantage again. I believe that .gov SOP is to put as many guns in the room in the shortest amount of time to avoid situations like your hero standing in the doorway and killing one guy, but getting himself shot to death by anyone else in the room while he blocks the door so his friends can't come in.

File: Untitled.png (33KB, 1200x885px) Image search: [Google]

33KB, 1200x885px

>>34116290
>>34116272
Here's what i'm talking about

>>34116252
>this fucking video again
yes, lets take 20 videos of larpers, conscripts, small-town swat cops, militias, and airmen, and then criticize them for their poorly trained CQB, then blame all of it on immediate entry

>>34116295
you realize the amount of time you spend hiding behind a door is dictated by how long it takes a bad guy to die, right? you're not gonna pop him once or twice and turn your back on him

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WkUkMO3iJs
0:45 for what good CQB looks like

well done OP. let's get this to JSOC asap. i'm putting you up for a medal

File: 1.png (30KB, 1202x781px) Image search: [Google]

30KB, 1202x781px

>>34116303
pic related?

>>34116324
>you realize the amount of time you spend hiding behind a door is dictated by how long it takes a bad guy to die, right? you're not gonna pop him once or twice and turn your back on him
Yeah absolutely, shoot the threat until it goes away, but if you're carrying a rifle 3 or 4 fast upper body shots could handle him

>>34116350
>if you're carrying a rifle 3 or 4 fast upper body shots could handle him
that's still 0.5-1s lingering behind a door hoping achmed won't come see what the bang bang bang sound is

>>34116359
>0.5-1s is too slow
huh

File: Capture.png (187KB, 358x271px) Image search: [Google]

187KB, 358x271px

>>34116324
"good CQB" wtf is this shit?

in 0:53 he just kicks the door and barges in exposing half of his body, THEN aims down the target

in 1:01 pic related when they're entering the small room the guy goes in alone and only checks the right flank, leaving his left flank totally exposed, if there was a defender there he'd fill the pointman with lead

field manuel is just a refrence. You got to figure out how to do it when you are there facing different situation.

And CQB is a meat grinder in nature. ppl will get shot

>>34116367
dude, how far can you move in 1s? if you're not a fucking fatbody you can clear a yard or two, that's plenty of distance so that he can see your fucking back while you fill his buddy in.

>>34116394
Get off your desk, do it now
get out of your room then stack up on it's door, as if you're breaching your own room
trying doing what OP proposed as smoothly and fast as possible
measure the time and post it here

>>34116381
>in 0:53 he just kicks the door and barges in exposing half of his body, THEN aims down the target
you try kicking that door down without exposing yourself. it's obvious you've never even tried it. if you kick hard and the door isn't strong you're going to have momentum going in. if you don't kick hard enough you're stuck at the breach point

>in 1:01 pic related when they're entering the small room the guy goes in alone and only checks the right flank, leaving his left flank totally exposed, if there was a defender there he'd fill the pointman with lead
you retard, you can see the left corner from the fucking hallway.

>>34116415
fuck off OP
you realize that time is completely meaningless if im just airgunning imaginary targets? and im not looking at a total time, you retard. im saying that the time spent lingering in the doorway with your back to a potential threat is too long.

>ITT: a bunch of autists who have never been in the military
Have any of you ACTUALLY had any CQB training or are you all just sperging out over hypothetical situations?

>>34116423
I kick down my garage door every time i open it, it's the only way

you can kick down a door by only exposing your leg

>you can see the left corner from the fucking hallway.
Nigger if all rooms were that small we wouldn't even be having this thread because you'd see all corners from the hallway, Now try it with a bigger room where you can't see the corners unless you go in

>>34116428
I trained multiple times with simunitions

t. OP

File: 18699865_1454385357982760_4280783395661037135_n.jpg (90KB, 436x960px) Image search: [Google]

90KB, 436x960px

>>34116435
>tfw the exposure of that guy's flank was well under 0.5s but apparently not short enough for the guy who thinks 1s having your back to a threat is fine.

>>34116435
you have to kick the door knock area, or you just gonna kick through the door. and stuck in there

>>34116435
>you can kick down a door by only exposing your leg
i guess you've done it to a door hit with a flex linear charge, too, huh? it's a different story when shits all awkward, you're wearing 45 lbs of kit and gun, the door isn't even square in the frame anymore, etc

>>34116475
ever kicked a door in your life?

>>34116502
yes, i thought that went without saying

>>34116449
Having one second behind concealment is better than having 0.5 seconds exposed

File: Untitled.png (11KB, 773x595px) Image search: [Google]

11KB, 773x595px

way I was taught in the usaf was basically each man entering goes the alternate direction of the man before him
i.e.: 1 goes left, 2 goes right, etc

>>34116206
Flashbangs

>>34116506
>>34116449
Here's what's gonna happen if you rush barge like a retard
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQvDn9MEtNo

no matter how fast you can be you'd still be shot, if the enemy has his sights aimed down a door, The average human reaction speed is 250ms, that's Quarter of a second

>>34116528
We're talking about a foolproof toolless method, pure firearms.

File: flamethrower.png (33KB, 589x531px) Image search: [Google]

33KB, 589x531px

>>34116543
>firearms
good idea

File: firearms.jpg (60KB, 832x540px) Image search: [Google]

60KB, 832x540px

>>34116552

>>34116543
i saw this one on a news. They said the dude in there was a marine infantry vet. And after the huge boom boom, no way he could heard the ""police, warrant shit"

>>34116543
>foolproof
>your door bullshit

ok im half glad you'll never get to use it cause you're a larper

but desu i half wish you did use it so you'd get killed

>>34116543
when a department/ team says, We always use dynamic entre, they are prone to get shot one day.

You need to figure out the best solution at the scene. Having mulitiple plan helps./

>>34116613
Not an argument

pieing a corner fast, taking 4 shots at the enemy's upper torso, then moving on would take about 1 or 2 seconds, then you move on to the other guy far behind the door

If the enemy is far behind the door, then he wouldn't even be able to see you through the crack leaving you to clear the opposite corner in peace then you move up on him

If the enemy is right behind the door, then he'd be fucking busy recovering from the hit his head took when the fucking breaching team slammed the door

>>34116613
OP's solution may not be foolproof but it sure as hell a bit better than rushing in like a downie and getting filled with lead

Things do go wrong. But the idea is rapid response, misdirection, sensory overload, and superior training. Even without diversionary devices, you're using the chaos as a smoke screen: you've trained for it and they normally haven't. That means their minds will be overloaded, and the entry team's won't be. Those split seconds make the difference. And the Left-Right movement combines speed and misdirection: you aim for one guy's back and another turns the corner; brain scrambles. Threat or initial target? Too late. The entry team is running on training and thrives in what others see as chaos.

>>34116234
Defender A can start shooting the moment attacker A1 comes in. Not to the mention that the door could easily be penetrated by gunfire.

>>34116643
read>>34116630's second and third lines

>>34116552
>*muffled Charlie screaming in the background*

>>34116655
But if the attackers are already well prepared, that plan is still mute. Unless it's dark or they're blinded, the defender behind the door could easily either lean or shoot through the door. He doesn't necessarily have to use the crack in the door, he can just shoot through it period. Also, if that argument assumes that the guy behind the door was hit by it during the blast open.

Too many variables and too many assumptions of the situation.

>>34116630
and in that 1 or 2 seconds the guy behind the door is maneuvering on you so that the door is no longer in the way


>>34116638
this comes from your extensive experience? or just theorycrafting.

>>34116630
>If the enemy is right behind the door, then he'd be fucking busy recovering from the hit his head took when the fucking breaching team slammed the door
great example of how little experience you have

if you're opening the door so hard (by hand, not by explosive breach) that a guy behind it would be really stunned, you'd have to be slamming it pretty fucking hard. if you try doing that and nobody's behind the door it's just gonna bounce back off the wall and fuck with your entry

>>34116206
First of all there is no good way to clear room. Defenders have an upper hand and attackers are fucked in any away, deference is just how much they would be fucked. Clearing rooms is for low threat environment or/and low probability of enemy in these rooms. If attackers are positively sure that enemies are inside and they are dangerous then nobody fucking clearing the rooms. Enemy is destroyed with explosives, gas, fire and such.


Point about such rush in is not to block the door. Even if the first guy is hit his momentum will carry him out of the door and clear the door for reinforcements that are supposed to kill opposition that revealed its position.

If you will approach slow and point man stands in the door his is risking to be shot the same but he would fall in the door, blocks reinforcements. now his is lying under crossfire, taking repeating hits with no hope of quick firefight ending, evacuation and medical help, total fuck up. And even more combat is reset to starting position with no gains but minus one good guy down.

>>34116295
>Not if the attacker if fast enough
No matter how you try to spin it attacker needs to win firefight against two persons, even more do it rotating 180 degrees between engagements. He will never win. Try such duel on the range with guns (safely of course, you know what IDPA duel is?) or paintball.

Attackers ARE supposed to take hits and causalities. Tactics just aim to REDUCE them not eliminate. There is no "clean win button" with constrains of ROE, gear and time limit.

>>34116776
>this comes from your extensive experience? or just theorycrafting.
Just stating the obvious

having a little veil that conceals your back then slicing pie by pie is surely better than running in without even slicing the pie at all

>>34116810
or you could slice the pie partway and then both run in???

you don't know what you don't know nigga

>>34116803
>Enemy is destroyed with explosives, gas, fire and such.
Hostages?

File: 345234534.jpg (403KB, 1500x1000px) Image search: [Google]

403KB, 1500x1000px

>>34116824
>If attackers are positively sure that enemies are inside
>enemies
Not "enemies + hostages."

>>34116824
if there are hostages this "stand in the doorway" bullshit is even less viable. in that case you really fucking need to get in there before the enemies whack everyone

File: 1200px-Alfagroup_emb_n1021.svg.png (292KB, 1200x1642px) Image search: [Google]

292KB, 1200x1642px

>>34116824
What hostages?

>>34116819
They could still get gunned down by opposite corners

>>34116686
You're assuming that the target behind the door is literally 1 foot away or sticking to the door
in that case he'd be on the ground because the door got slammed his way

in other case he's decently far away from the door and that makes peeking through the doorcrack extremely hard (as if modern door cracks aren't small enough lmao

>>34116858
so can this door guy if the guy in the other corner fucking moves lol. try this shit in force on force against real people and it's not gonna work

>>34116881
>thinking someone will fall on the ground cause a door got slammed at them
You're a retarded, weak piece of shit

>>34116904
>You're a retarded, weak piece of shit
ever had a decently strong person kick slam a door on you?
Even if he didn't fall he'd take a second to recover from the slam

>>34116881
When we are taking about rooms distance shadows and sound allow to easily perceive person covered by door. Plus he has reaction of his budy who rises gun and starts shooting and then shooting of attacker. Good enough sign to start shooting through door and/or execute maneuver to engage.

>>34116904
>so can this door guy if the guy in the other corner fucking moves lol. try this shit in force on force against real people and it's not gonna work
OP here
exactly i tried it in simunitions house and it worked, which is why i exactly created this danmed thread

>>34116925
are you seriously kicking every door? that's even more retarded

>>34116932
how'd you keep the other guy still, superglue his boots to the floor?

>>34116931
Good point, you've got me.

>>34116953
>how'd you keep the other guy still, superglue his boots to the floor?
Not that guy but tbqh throwing a fast burst at a guy's upper chest after peeking then turning around would be pretty fast for the second defender to catch you off guard

>>34116206
The correct answer is to throw flashbangs and grenades before entering, OP.

>>34116968
tbqh you sound exactly like that guy and the poster count is the same as before

the whole point of OP's supposed method is that it's supposed to work on a prepared enemy
which is completely laughable because a prepared enemy is not gonna let himself get screened by a door. this is some "only works on afghans and retards" tactic

File: 1491947319801.jpg (21KB, 599x399px) Image search: [Google]

21KB, 599x399px

>>34116983
>"only works on afghans and retards" tactic

>>34116444
But were you in the military or a SWAT?

>>34118374
No, just took a CQB course at T1G

>>34116206

Pretty sad that not a single person on this thread has posted the actual tactic that is actually used in real war, rather than this LARP shit: Shooting through the walls and throwing 2-3 frags into the room.

But that's what I'd expect from a bunch of LARP'ing teens.

>>34116206
That's not how we do this in the IDF

File: 17795975_935418759932302_9129037395541513969_n.jpg (64KB, 604x604px) Image search: [Google]

64KB, 604x604px

>>34118732
then enlighten us, how do you do it?, do you smell the enemy's position, schlomo?

File: McVeigh intensifies.jpg (15KB, 316x450px) Image search: [Google]

15KB, 316x450px

>>34116843

>>34118800
First guy scans from outside
Second guy right behind him
Both go in at the same time, not in an x motion but in the direction that's closer to them( as in, first guy came to the doorway from the left, he will go left)
By doing this they both scan their respective corner, then take positions in the room to cover exits from it to let the others behind them do this again for each room in the building. There's plenty of videos of it.

>>34118864
This guy is actually right, the entry paths do not make an x, and you more-or-less keep your shoulder to the one wall, and weep from the middle to your sides corner as you enter. First guy in takes a bullet, unless you frag teh room, spray the room, flash the room, or any other common snese measure of disorientation is applied to the defenders

>>34118864
are the doors in jewland like 3 meters wide or something?

no way you'd pull this off in a standard tight doorway without bumping each other

File: best sweep method.png (71KB, 1077x646px) Image search: [Google]

71KB, 1077x646px

The best part is, you can practice by playing CoD.

>>34118978
There's some top secret leg work involved.
Also, there's simply no way to enter a room without being in danger. Cqb techniques just try to mitigate that.

>>34118406
Opinion disregarded

>>34119915
did You have any military or law enf training?
or are you just a shit flinger?

>>34116520
This, but army.

Main issue is that 2 people isnt enough to do it right. You should have like 5 and just assume that the first 2 are going to die. Clearing rooms is a numbers game, and luck.

It's called throwing a grenade in and waiting.

File: 1495998834668.png (496KB, 643x580px) Image search: [Google]

496KB, 643x580px

>>34116206
The point is to catch the enemy off guard. Anyone can kill anyone when they expect them to come through a door, that's why it's supposed to be fast. Oh, your friend died, that is too bad son, keep going or you'll get your other friends killed. Arh?

In a CENTER FED room: Stack up the door with four, 1 man goes left or right depending on SOP and 2 man goes opposite. 1 man digs to the end of the wall, 3 man follows but stays closer to the entry, 4 does the same as 3 but on opposite side. Last man usually checks rafters if there are rafters.

Never wait in the door this has to be fluid and quick unless you wanna die.

If you need a refresher check FM 3.06-11.

>>34118864
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwUwUGlrfdA
that piling up in the door-frame looks painfull to watch

>>34120539
is it just me or is the guy with a pistol pointing it at his buddy an awful lot

>>34116520
So if the first guy goes in the direction of the Cheetos and mountain dew the other guy gets screwed? Life must be tough in the AF.

File: vlcsnap-2017-05-31-19h17m36s318.png (375KB, 1280x738px) Image search: [Google]

375KB, 1280x738px

>>34116381
>>34116206
>>34116234
>>34116317
>>34116350
>>34116449
>>34116520
>>34116552
>>34119055
I guess all you fuckers are smarter than an FBI badass bitch, right?

>>34120629
that's my favorite CQB tactic, the tactical fall on the ground like a retard and dump full auto

>>34119915
At least he fucking trained i think you're the one with no training here

>>34120655
not that guy but seriously doubting T1G would teach something this retarded

>>34120539
That peek is so fucking slow holy shit they could get gunned down so hard

>>34120664
Maybe that' his conclusion off the shit they were teaching him

>>34120539
I've had a bit of airsoft training with an ex SWAT guy as well as a counter terror guy (both not american). The counter terror guy's style was more like the US style - decisive entry, based on speed. The SWAT guy was more similar to the israeli one, a bit slower and methodical. To be honest i prefer the israeli style - it's a bit more organic and it comes more natural (your instinct tells you not to go into a room guns blazing) plus if there's a threat you don't want to confront, it's easier to pull back when you don't burst into the room every time. Of course that's only airsoft, but if i am to choose, i go with slicing the pie as much as possible vs dynamically entering everywhere. But i'd much rather shoot the bastards from outside the house any day.

>>34120629
in this room, she can see the left side of the room already, she should had turned north checking the corner and having the second guy secure the left side.

>>34121396
can you tell us which country are they from?
Is the CT guy from russian? And EX SWAT guy from south east asian? Japan maybe? Japanese SF tactics has alot of traditional japanese martial art vibe in it.

>>34116206

This looks like one of the worst case scenarios. Honestly, I don't see very many good ways to enter the room without exposing yourself or making an assload of noise and giving away your position.

I don't know, maybe you could mirror the corner where B is to confirm it's empty, then enter the room by path 2.

>>34121569
Both Romanian. Before NATO, Romanian special forces had a lot of trainers coming from Israel and some elements were perpetuated. After joining NATO, of course, most instructors would come from NATO countries and were, or trained with Americans.

File: 1301715377285.jpg (52KB, 967x697px) Image search: [Google]

52KB, 967x697px

>while you were wasting time baking pies the enemy throws a fucking grenade at your feet
Your move Mr.lawman.

File: 12353453.jpg (46KB, 796x448px) Image search: [Google]

46KB, 796x448px

>>34121396
>counter terror guy
Here is thing about counter terror. If they go for room clear they are dealing with hostages situation and they are basically throw their bodies in to divert attention from killing hostages. If time constrains and situation permits there are means to clear rooms without actually going in.

>>34122084
Throw your grenade first.

>>34120539
These are cops, not soldiers.
IDF does it much faster and dont just walk around the room afterwards.

>>34116381
>in 0:53 he just kicks the door and barges in exposing half of his body, THEN aims down the target

im not xplaining this just no ur dum

Honestly I feel like there are factors you just don't know or aren't considering, and actual environments will always be different from armless dummy terroristas in a simulation.

>in 1:01 pic related when they're entering the small room the guy goes in alone and only checks the right flank, leaving his left flank totally exBLAH BALAH BLAH BLAH BLA

yeah no, that one is legitimate to a degree, but actual real deal room clearing is taught like that. Or at the very least that's how the marines would teach you.

Literally will tell you "keep going, you probably won't die if he hits you in the right spot, and then you'll buddy will have shot him anyways" paraphrased of course.

Also, achmeds don't always deal with pressure very well. Hell, normal soldiers can't always deal with the pressure of having their doors actively kicked in and having to defend themselves sometimes, so the best thing to have is surprise, speed, a cool head, and a nice gat piece you feel comfortable operating when you actually kick in shit, plus people you trust is always a good thing to have.

File: call_97-20_fig3_4.gif (23KB, 786x572px) Image search: [Google]

23KB, 786x572px

>>34116206

Seriously who the fuck clears rooms like that other than actors in TV shows about police?

>>34116206
>>34116234
F A T A L F U N N E L

yes, people are going to die during room clearing. its dangerous. but you dont pie doorways because the enemy will hear your footsteps/breathing, and see your gun or shadow, then proceed to spray through the door. Room clearing requires speed, and a proper stack. the 1st guy goes in and clears his sector, fuck anything that's behind him or out of his sight. That's what the 2 guy is there for. it requires speed. Statistically, the #2 man is killed most often, because a breach happens so fast that the enemy only reacts once the second guy is entering

>>34116234
Well, for starters, they tend to close the doors and wait, and kicking the door open tends to not leave it half way to the wall...