Okay so caseless ammo, wonderfull idea, crazy weight savings

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Here's an illustration so you can grasp my idea easier.

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>>34098117
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightweight_Small_Arms_Technologies
It doesn't work like that.

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>>34098124
And here's a g11 caseless cartridge.

>>34098130
Please do elaborate, i'd love to hear everybody's input.

>>34098117
uhm no the coplicated loading mechanism of g11 is because of the unique way they solved the top magazine.

you could make ceaseless ammo fired from ordinary rifles with ordinary geometry and magazine shape.

but you have to tinker a bit with the locking mechanism for better sealing.

on the flip-side of things electric ignition works better with caseless ammo. so not only this can result in nicer trigger pulls and more freely configurable firing patterns (number of repetitions and timings) but also integrates better with smart gun features.

>>34098443
I would give my left nut for a bullpup 5.56x30 caseless with a electronic trigger.
>Semi
>3 round burst at 2500 rpm.
>Auto at 350 rpm

>>34098443
Unfortunately I don't think anyone will really go for electronics in guns. Having to keep a charged battery or 10 on everyone just to make sure their gun can fire is not attractive. Then you have to make it water proof so nothing shorts.

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>>34098443
The fundamental challenges for shooting caseless ammo out of conventional firearms are:
-making a proper gas seal
-how do you extract an unfired cartrdige for example? ie. how do you make a rim out of HITP that can handle enough punishment?
-how do you extract leftover material like the primer cup?

All of these problems would be solved by my suggestion of adding a conventional cartridge case (could be made out of plastic for extra weight reduction) back end to the back end of a caseless round.

Here's a g11 two piece chamber.

>>34098529
Make it like a Timney trigger a drop in unit, we already carry batteries for everything else why not for the trigger?

There's also the heat sink issue. What are you gonna do now that all that excess heat is no longer being carried away from the system by spent brass?

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>>34098145
Not that guy but after experimenting with both caseless and cased telescoping ammo the LSAT program ended up finding the cased telescoping was much easier to deal with for a number of reasons.

Caseless as you pointed out neads a chamber that seals itself while CT has a cartridge that helps with sealing. This does reduce the need for maintenance of seals of any sort. Durability is also a bit of an issue with caseless compared to cased ammo. Cased is also far easier to manufacture, caseless tends to mean dealing with moist paste like propellant to form it and then drying the ammo while cased telescoping uses compressed ball powder very similar to what we use now.

>>34098636
The G11 solved all this.
https://youtu.be/TyUY4ojPuM8

>>34098659
Yeah the heat sink issue is a classic one but suppose this idea is for infantry rifles only and not for lmg's so it's not that big of a worry. Also, atleast on the LSAT wiki page they're boasting an even greater heat resistance for their HITP than what HK had back in the nineties and eighties.

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>>34098636
The LSAT program came up with an interesting rotating chamber idea to make things much easier than the G11 as far as sealing, maintenance, and bad round removal, goes and to reduce heat issues. The thing is this is still MUCH easier to do with cased ammo than caseless.

With this design both spent and bad cartridges just get gently pushed through the chamber, rounds ejects fairly softly to the front and right.

>>34098659
Not an issue, brass only carries 10-15% of the heat away and the HTMP acts as a heat sink as well.

>>34098660
Dude please read the opening post of this thread. The conventional case end at the end of the caseless round that i suggested would deal with the chamber sealing problems. Also maintenance would not be any bigger problem than it is atm because, well, it's the same rifle as before, just with different ammo. Now i do not know about the production costs, they might well be higher for this kind of caseless ammo.

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>>34098682
>caseless ammo
>has a case
americunts everyone

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>>34098682
That mechanism is not really all that much simpler than the g11 chamber would be with cased ammo, the two piece chamber is there just to produce a good gas seal when using caseless ammo.

>>34098716
Well there is one big issue with that, solid powder is much denser than lose ball so attempting to make some same size conversion round wouldn't work. I also don't think a typical ejection system would work for that tiny stub of a case .

>>34098726
It was a development program for both caseless and cased telescoping ammo, cased telescoping won out mostly due to ammo cost issues but having a simpler weapon that didn't need to deal with seal issues was a consideration too.

>>34098675
Indeed they did, with a quite the complicated rifle you must admit. What i'm proposing here is a semi caseless design with 90% of the weight savings but that would work with conventional rifles like the AR-15.

>>34098736
Well there is one consideration here, racking a charging handle is a good bit easier than twisting a knob on the side of a weapon to deal with malfunctions.

Then again if you wanted to it wouldn't be that hard to make some sort of charging handle system for a rotating chamber like that.

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When the LSAT was actually tested you can see that nearly everyone liked it more than the M249.

>>34098745
Okay so it's denser, that means that it can be smaller than the chamber is, that is not a problem especially since the stub case head would support the whole cartridge and keep it steady. Infact having the solid propellant not touch the case walls might actually be beneficiary since it would reduce the potential of a cook off.

>>34098653
I don't depend on my phone to save my life.

>>34098777
>but that would work with conventional rifles like the AR-15.
Extraction of misfire/broken round? Pulling of powder stick for behind? Pls. There is the reason why caseless projects used push extraction. Abrams tank gun uses rounds like yours but it is loaded by hand.


>90% of the weight savings
Case head weights around 50% of the entire case.

>>34098529
Put the batter in the magazine. We already carry a plethora of batteries for various electronics as is.

>>34098529
We do it for optics. Why would your trigger be any different?

>>34098894
>>34098124
Look at this picture, extraction of misfire/broken rounds would go exactly as it goes with conventional designs.

>Case head weights around 50% of the entire case.
Yeah you're correct, 90% was probably a bit high though since the rim wouldn't be under too much stress it could be made out of lighter materials than brass like aluminum or plastic.

>>34098636
>making a gas seal is not that big of an issue tho the revolvers don't provide a gas seal for that matter still work just fine. but sure that can be worked upon.
>how do you extract an unfired cartrdige
easiest would be to use a ramming rod don't fuck around with extractors if you don't have to.
>like the primer cup
there will be no primer cup if you use electric ignition there is no need for it.

>>34098953
>since the rim wouldn't be under too much stress it could be made out of lighter materials than brass like aluminum or plastic
Not sure about aluminum but plastic has been tried and fails way too often, the extractor likes to bite off chunks instead of pulling it out of the chamber.

Then again that was for full length cases and not a stub. I'm still not sure what would happen during ejection without the proper case length.

>>34098529
>Having to keep a charged battery
you don't have to you can put a charging handle on the underside of your handle and crank up the juice for the first shots after that the gun operating will keep producing the voltage for consecutive shots. you can of course keep the battery charged or replace it if you don't want to mess around with it all the time. it's just means it's not a big deal if you run out of battery faster to fix than a jam.

>>34098931
also a good idea i guess. if a battery does run low just replace mag.

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>>34099052
Suddenly I'm picturing a shake flashlight mechanism built into a rifle. I can just see a soldier shaking his rifle vigorously just to get off a few rounds and then repeating.

>>34099025
>plastic has been tried and fails way too often
Maybe in conventional cartridge cases but here you would be extracting only the small snub that weighs like nothing and doesn't have a lot of surface area in contact with the chamber and therefore has a small amount of friction. So the rim wouldn't suffer too much punishment.

>>34099079
well once the shooting starts there is no reason the gun can't charge itself from the recoil or the gas blow-back system.

>>34099192
just imagine a few piezo quartz cells under the shoulder pad producing millions of volts with every recoil (and also dampening it).

>>34099223
of course then
>shooting from the hip now depletes the battery

>>34098477
350 is really low for auto bro. Why 350?

>>34098726
You have no gun rights. You are not a real human.

>>34098117
I bet I could design a better one.

>>34099079
The idea is rather humorous but venting exhaust gasses through a turbine or utilizing pyroelectric materials to harvest waste heat would be more than enough to charge a capacitor or battery. I'd estimate that a rugged logic system with variable trigger control and the ignition system wouldn't get even close to the limits of modern Li-Po rechargeable batterys discharge rates.

>>34099340
>venting exhaust gasses through a turbine
You could have a suppressor that really is a jet engine in reverse tied to a generator.

>>34099340
Yeah some piezo quartz or whatever thingies in the butt stock would probably be the most reasonable solution.

>>34098696
>only 10-15%
That's a huge amount from an engineering standpoint. In terms of thermal equilibrium, it could be 40-50 degrees C.

>>34099340
>>34099052
>mfw rifles become as complex as cars

>>34098948
You can still fire if your optics go out, and most people still keep iron sights on just in case it breaks in some other way.
>>34098931
Great, now you have to keep 6 batteries charged. If one goes out that entire mag is worthless.

>>34099256
Maybe to not waste ammo. I too wonder if the fire rate in modern weapons (eg a m4 wit about 900rm) is this high intentionally or just to save bolt weight or not to complicate the mechanism with a delay. You mainly need it to pin enemies down, right? I don't know the American doctrine but the German Jägerdoktrin i learned as a conscript lets you primarily use semi auto fire while bursts only on command or emergencies. Do you Americans do it differently?

>>34099476
Yeah as far as i know the american doctrine is that full auto is the panic button and semi auto is the ordinary setting so 900 rpm does kinda make sense. The russians are a bit different though, this can be seen even in the AK selector level, first comes full auto, then semi.

>>34098696
>only 10-15%
Okay. Now imagine the weapon in question is a belt fed GPMG that is firing a belt of very hot 7.62x51. 10% per round adds up really fast.

>>34099524
Pretty much all machine guns fire from an open bolt and barrel changes help with heat mitigation, the biggest issue with GPMG's is weight hence the LSAT.

>>34099513
That's because a panicked comrade is likely to push the selector down from "safe" with a fair bit of force. As far as I know they largely use semi auto like us. British doctrine is to use auto as the emergency spray n' pray button or when clearing an enemy position.

>>34098675
The only thing the G11 solved was the problem of keeping Germany's largest arms manufacturer in business by soaking up a lot of government money.

The G11 is a meme gun that was never practical. You have been duped by HK propaganda.

>>34099362
>spinning suppressor
why haven't this been done already?

>>34099450
It's not that big of a deal to keep a battery charged. My Aimpoint has a 3 year battery life, I can't imagine it would take too much energy to ignite a primer. Plug your mags in (or use a charging pad for a universal energy source for all electronics) when you get in from a patrol just to keep them topped off, otherwise they'd probably be good for a few thousand rounds.

>>34100289
OSS makes suppressors that spin the exhaust gas while sending it through multiple layers instead of traditional baffles but has no moving parts. Unless you were trying to generate power with it having such moving parts really does not make sense.

If you used it for electricity generation this probably wouldn't be as much of an issue but a suppressor with a turbine would end up spinning up as you fire more through it and this would probably reduce its effectiveness and give it a strange sound when you are not firing.

>>34100389
I mean idk you've gotta create a spark for every round fired wouldn't that take quite some power?

>>34101391
Running a short but powerful pulse through the primer would only require enough power to start the reaction. No spark required since the resistance of the primer would convert electrons into heat.

what happens to caseless ammo if it gets wet? i mean is there a protective coating they have that prevents it from turning into sludge?

>>34103113
They take tougher solvents than water to break down so that isn't an issue.

I don't see what the big deal is with electronic ignition, there's rifles like the remington 700 etronx that can fire thousands of rounds per battery and keeping a spare in the stock or part of a cleaning kit would ensure you can always fire the damn thing. Hell, make it compatible with whatever battery is used in NVGs or handheld radios and you'd always have one handy.

A simple three light charge indicator would let a soldier know when to replace it, too - 3 lights for full charge, 2 for 50-75%, 1 for 10-25%, and have them flash when the battery is below 10%.

>>34104093
I think the future of firearms is to make them semi-electronic. Electronic trigger controlling a solenoid or electrical ignition, make the rails also carry a current so you can make your gear more compact, make the battery part of the stock or foregrip or pistol grip. If you incorporate an induction charger for the gun, it's easy to charge while you're in your transport. Hell, the rails would use induction charging to power the accessories and optics so you could just clip a quick detach charger to your gun while in transit.

>>34104393
>every trigger and button set will feel like a shitty digital m+kb combo
Fuck the future

>>34098117

The only thing that's going to accomplish is making your rifle explode and take half your face with it.

>>34104093
>I don't see what the big deal is with electronic ignition

It has zero purpose.

>>34104776
No lock time is pretty cool.

>>34099340

With big 80's TURBO decals on the side of the gun plz

>>34098529
>>34098443
>>34098477
How much power is required for electric ignition? What are the requirements current and voltage wise?

>>34104776
It enables caseless ammunition to be used without a primer cup, which is beneficial for a caseless gun.

>>34105730
The 700 etronx bumps the 9V battery output up to 150V, not sure what the current draw is. You can probably look up the resistance specs of the etronx primers, then use ohm's law to figure out the amps.

>>34098736
>>34098682
Part of the reason the G11 mechanism was so complicated was because it made sure to never put an unfired round (either due to failure to fire or user error or whatever) tip to primer with another cartridge. The primer faces the unloading port as it comes out.

>>34099079
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tNJeS6O6ds

>>34099112
Your brass is what obturates to provide you the chamber seal. Even if you decrease the overall size of the brass, it still needs to be just as stuck in there to provide the seal.

>>34099429
>>34099223
Like a bbq lighter? Would they even produce enough power to fire the next round?

>>34104776
0 lock time, easy reconfiguration of overall layout (removes one of the big 3 problems with bullpups for example), light or heavy trigger pull as you want, safer ammo (see: idiot that tried to use a .50 as a hammer on his MG mount locking pin), and faster reset.

>>34105763
>It enables caseless ammunition to be used without a primer cup, which is beneficial for a caseless gun.

You still need something for it to arc too though? I mean it can be basically foil, but its still something extra to put into the cartridge.

Or is there some other mechanical issue with primer cups in caseless that I'm not understanding?

>>34104093
Why not even make it simpler than that
>When battery is empty the operator moves a switch which cams the trigger such that the trigger engages a piezoelectronic switch that creates the initial charge (harsher trigger pull, semi auto only)
>When battery is full the switch is moved back and moves to electronic igniton mode
Or, if you're crazy enough, radioisotope thermal batteries

>>34098124
I've thought about the same thing myself. It seemed possible but it loses a lot of the weight advantage. Much of the case's weight is in the rear where it's thickest.

>>34098783
Stick a lever on it. Charging handle comes out of the side of the gun.

>>34098124
Doesn't resolve the problem in case of a broken body. If it did you wouldn't need an extractor at all, the round would just slide out of the chamber.

If extraction is impossible with a full caseless round due to a broken groove, the round will still be as impossible to extract with such a semi-caseless design. Even worse, it creates an area prone to break by severing slightly the body of the round to attach the brass base to it.

Better off switching directly to lightweight polymer cases at this point.
This is why the only design approaching caseless in terms of functionality was gyrojet. And this is why case telescoped will always be superior to caseless.

>>34099256
because it's about tree fiddy ?

>>34098529
Couldn't it be done with piezoelectric ignition?

>>34099840
>butthurt AR fag.

>>34098682
The rotating chamber is only in the cased variant of LSAT. The caseless variant uses the two-piece expanding chamber of the G11.

>>34106629
Yeah this is very much correct, another thing is though that the snub could be made from lighter materials (or just thinner brass) since it doesn't have to support a full case when being extracted.

>>34107681
Polymer cases do not facilitate pull back extraction, only push through extraction. Also, you could easily attach a case snub very strongly to the HITP, think about it, just do a few crimps into the snub and then mold the HITP into it, the connection will be very strong.

>>34105862
>Would they even produce enough power to fire the next round?
you need high voltage for an arc it will be enough.

I dont think this would solve the problem of literally melting the gun.

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>>34109842
>I dont think this would solve the problem of literally melting the gun.
what did he mean by this?

>>34110248
caseles ammo has problems with causing very high temperatures in guns because of a lack of brass to dissipate the heat.

>>34110380
So the AR-15 can shoot like 600 rounds continuously before a failure, someone earlier ITT said that the cases working as heatsinks dump 10% of the temperature. So without the heatsink effect you could shoot like 500 rounds or so and i'd say that that's plenty.

>>34098117
>But one of its biggest flaws is that you've got to design a whole new weapon for it
THIS ISN'T A FUCKING FLAW
This is why we'll never move past the AR system.

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>>34111068
Dude the AR is fucking great as long as you don't slap on a bunch of useless shit.

>>34111082
I mean people are always looking for an alternative caliber to .223 but they are restricted to what the can rechamber their AR for or what fits in the magazine.

>>34110894
for handheld weapons sure. but caseless ammo will likely be used in mounted weapons first

>>34111082
>shoulder rank
>is airman

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a good deal of the complexity of the G11 is due to the fact that it was designed to fire rapid three round bursts with the entire action recoiling inside the housing to mitigate recoil between each shot in the burst.

Look how complex the AN-94 is, which does roughly the same thing with cased rounds. A caseless rifle based on the G11 with no requirement for the three round burst feature would be a much simpler machine.

>>34107681
The G11 was functional it was just finished at an inopportune time.

>>34109842
That has literally never been the problem. The problem has always been cook off.

Changes in powder selection cause more heat issues than cased to caseless

>>34110248
He's an idiot.

>>34098696
Where did you get that number anon?

>>34112560
AN-94 wouldn't be too complicated if the magazine was connected to the inner receiver or whatever like in the G11.

>>34098117
Have you considered how the brass cap is going to eject, or is that just more spess majicks

Also a big problem with caseless is overheating

>>34116467
The brass snub would eject the same way ordinary brass cases eject, ie. extractor crabs the rim and an ejector flings the case out of the ejection port.