What is the biggest US DOD spending failure of all time and why

Everything after the M16a1 was and is a huge waste of money.

>>34007706
Relax bro they've been trying to make the AR-15 good for 60 years, what's another couple late capitalism bux

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>>34007706
>>We already have good rounds such as mk318 and mk262

Let's just issue $2-3 a round cartridges as our primary ammunition shall we

>>34007706
The retards could have avoided all of this by simply using lead instead of copper.

Seriously why the fuck use copper for the core?
It's a lot more expensive and a lot less dense.
Just use hard cast lead instead of copper and you could cut down on the length.
The only good thing about this round is the hardened penetrator tip.
You could even have kept the increased velocities but at a lower pressure.

>>34008718
> mk262
> $2-3

Hang the accountant who signed that purchase order for treason.

>>34008731
>Seriously why the fuck use copper for the core?
I'd imagine because it's more dense than an all-steel construction would be and ensures the projectile remains lead-free.

>>34008731
>hard cast lead

I believe they were looking to cut down on lead runoff from ranges, mostly due to state closures and such.

http://infohouse.p2ric.org/ref/07/06040.htm

>>34009018
Who gives a fuck about environmental damage?
It doesn't even damage the environment.
It remains lead in solid form, and they should on training ranges or in a desert of some far away country.
And what about the environmental damage of wasting so much copper? If can't be recycled now can it so now we have to dig more out of the ground and I bet that causes a lot of environmental damage.

>>34008731
The entire POINT of the prject was that it was lead free, and didn't suck and worse than before. as susual, it was a compromise.

>>34009546
>It remains lead in solid form
Only if your rain water is nuetral, which it isn't.

> And what about the environmental damage of wasting so much copper?

It's going to absolutely fuck up aquatic ecosystems instead.

>>34007716

>late capitalism

Gtfo

>>34009546
>Who gives a fuck about environmental damage?
People in a position to make the decision, fortunately.
>And what about the environmental damage of wasting so much copper?
I don't know. Lead-free isn't going away, though.

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>>34007706

>(CNSNews.com) – The U.S. General Services Administration announced it is taking bids on the Stanley R. Mickelsen Safeguard Complex in Nekoma, North Dakota – an anti-ballistic missile site that cost $500 million to build in 1975 and officially operated for less than 24 hours.

>>34010912
DOD auctioned that off back in 2012 to some hudderite colony. I would know they beat my bid by 529,000 dollars

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>>34007706
>worst thing the DOD has ever spent money on
Remember that time the entire US military decided to replace all their sidearms with those funny swiss glocks?

>>34010009
Lead will probably remain in the ground beneath dirt or in a sand pile, assuming you're even shooting in a place where it rains a lot you're probably not shooting someplace where rain water is acidic and if you are you're probably shooting at a range.
Even then where you're shooting is very isolated so the lead wont make it anywhere else other than the general area.
Again they either shoot in deserts or on a range, so who gives a fuck?
And again you're wasting copper which means we need to dig out more copper from the ground which damages eco systems a lot.

>>34007716
Fuck. You. Go back.

>>34011291
Water passing through CO2 period is going to be very mildly acidic. And I live near a major industrial center with a couple of older coal power plants, so it's going to be even worse on any lead in that berm.

Copper is also a lot more expensive, 400-500%, so I expect you'll see more economic pressure to recycle the copper from the berm. Nobody is going to do that with lead as cheap as it is and with the hassle of separating out the jacket.

>>34011383
You ignore all other points.
That lead won't do anything even if rain water has a low ph.

Another thing they don't just go shooting in the woods.
They shoot on ranges or in deserts.

>lead free
>wtf kind of leadership makes military lead poisoning of the environment a priority?

>>34007716
>>>/r/eddit

>>34007716
You fucking dumbass. After the Vietnam War, they literally traded one problem for another. If you don't understand how, then don't pretend to know anything about the AR platform

>>34010797
>Lead-free isn't going away, though.
Lol, it will when we get involved in another war and we can't afford to spend 3 dollars for a single cartridge.

>>34007706
>PMAGS don't fit STANAG anyways and even fuck up SCARS
>Better accuracy, reliable component separation into soft targets, better barrier pen than M80 ball

Moron.

>>34009546
>Range cleanups of Lead vs Copper and steel
Guess which costs less and doesn't incur EPA regs?

>>34007706
Are those cop killer warheads?

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>>34011249
Way better than these huge ugly bricks with bad ergos, easy jam slides, and oversized grips.

>Implying a 21-round smaller pistol is bad

>>34011249
the only screw up is not getting the full size frame and that external safety.

>>34011442
>That lead won't do anything even if rain water has a low ph.

Government environmental regulations are a bitch.They can't sell or repurpose land that's as contaminated with lead as a rifle range is without first removing it from the soil.

It's a round built by environtards. "Ohz noz meh lehd!". You'd swear it was enriched uranium. But it's far worse than destroying rifles without a special magazine. Their extremely high pressure cuts barrel life in half, and the rounds themselves are considerably more expensive than lead ones. They do have some decent penetration capability, but given that the VAST majority of rounds spent won't even be lined up to make contact with a target, all they are is expensive barrel burning suppression fire cartridges.

>>34011062
Did you fucking bid for 1000?

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>>34011249
ugh so much this. We went from using 2 totally decent pistol designs to using some gay ass pansy shit.
>.45 M1911
>9mm M9
Obviously a Glock 20SF would have been the best next choice but NOOO, WE WANT A MAHJALER GUN.

mfw 200gr FMJ 10mm NATO will never exist

>>34011649
go and stay go

Lotta people in here confusing M855A1 and M855LFP. Nearly all of them.

>>34011442
> Lead won't do anything even if rain water has a low ph

Not true. At all. It's already a problem with old lead sewer pipes.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1568496/

>>34011249
>tfw Sig hasn't been swiss in 40+ years

>>34011249
yeah I do remember. I was surprised they picked the best design over MUH GLAWK.

>>34007710
Yes, including modern technology. Fuck technology. We should've never transitioned from vacuum tubes and solid steel.

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>>34007716
lefty/pol/ get out

>>34011482
please enlighten me. some real deal arms development history books on the M16 series are sitting behind me, so i'd love your DEEP INSIGHT in what went wrong during and after vietnam.

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>>34011493
>Lol, it will when we get involved in another war and we can't afford to spend 3 dollars for a single cartridge.
If it became an issue they'd probably just switch to an almost entirely steel bullet like the one in the center of the pic related.

>>34007706
The M16 itself was a mistake. We should have stayed with the Springfield.

>>34013299

i think we should just use depleted uranium and be done with it

>>34007706
A good deal of the flag officers (General, Admirals) in present service.

We have more of these upper-echelon officers than we had in WW2.

Each with their own redundant staff, their own tax-payer spent "pimp my ride "personal" vehicle.

Nearly independent travel privileges, with each branch of a number of assorted "private planes"

Also each asshole has their credit-card that they are nearly unaccountable for.

You have full bird colonels serving as basic secretaries to generals no more than two-star.

As far as I have heard across the branches, the officer corps is fuck-huge waste of resources and fiscal common-sense.

Was enlisted, but I'd love to hear how I'm wrong.

The Pentagon audit is a god-send, if done right.

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>specially designed magazines

>>34013743
yeah go bound with that shit

>>34013909
Given that it completely blew the fuck out of every other magazine that competed with it in military testing, sure.

GI Bill

>>34011644
Yeah, I was going to invite you all over it I bought it.

As always, the desire to stick with puny 5.56 and the incredibly restrictive need to fit into the AR-15's magwell holds back progress once again.

>>34011249

To be fair it was cheaper to buy new Sig P320s than it was to fix a beat to shit Beretta 92
Each P320 cost the DoD $207

>>34013073
>what went wrong during

non-chrome lined barrels, no cleaning kits

>after vietnam

the 5.56 lost most of its effectiveness when they stopped using 20" barrel M193. Normally a few grains and a couple hundred feet per second is not a big deal, but it is when a projectile relies so heavily on velocity and yawing/fragmenting to cause damage

>>34015044
Plus since the frames are separate, relatively cheap components it's going to be easier to maintain them.

>>34007706
>>Destroys rifles that do not use a specially designed magazine

explain?

>>34011570

>external safety

Fuck safeties on pistols.

>>34015175
He's talking about how the special snowflake M27s have problems with M855A1. M4s don't.

>>34015179
The US military will never buy a general issue pistol without an external safety.

>>34015191
The Pmag gen m3 and the enhanced performance magazine are the only magazines that will work with m855a1. If you use any other magazine the steel tips will destroy the m4 feed ramps and barrel extension.

>>34007706
From my understanding there is no rifle designed around it which may be necessary step.
What they are trying to do is retrofit in rifles that really cant take it and thus failure rate.

Simple. The age of ArmaLite AR-15 technology is over for military applications. AR-15 is still ideal for civilians and generally non-military/militarized purposes.

HK-416 and AK-12 are the two technologies that will rule the military around the world.

>>34015284
>AK-12
Nice bait.

>>34015284
HK-416 is just a well-made Piston AR you fucking newfag

The original AK-12 was discontinued, the current model is just an upgraded AK-74

The next step in firearm innovation is caseless ammo

>>34013618
100% this. I've done a few STAFFEXes at JBLM now and it's absolutely asinine how bloated and worthless the Officer corps is. A good 60% of them have no purpose other than kissing someone's ass and sucking up tax dollars. The higher up you go the worse it gets.

>>34015387
>>34015392

Strictly from technological POV, he is correct. We're not going to see a huge breakthrough in firearm technologies in every way, other than praising piston system firearms of any kind, including meme guns like AK12. I think we're going to see a bigger breakthroughs in body armors.

>>34012151
There is something that bothers me about hunting animals like elephants purely for sport

>>34015195
This. Tons of militaries that have Glocks have their troops carry on an unloaded chamber. The US has almost always preferred loaded chamber with a manual safety

>>34015494
Telescoping cased ammo is one of the future advancements to look forward to but it is not enough by itself to push for the change.

Unpowered and powered exos are what will force militaries around to world to reevaluate what they are currently equipped with. If everyone is wearing at least some cheap, spring-powered exo which allows them a rifle plate coverage of 80+%, people might start to question the validity of intermediate cartridges. You are right; the development of armor is not going to give them a choice.

>>34011454
Welcome to 2017

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>>34011565
>huge ugly bricks
Huge brick maybe, but those feminine curves are never ugly.
>Bad ergos
Large hands master race faggot
>easy jam slides
Here is how I know where you are an idiot. The 92FS family is the exact opposite of easy jam
>oversized grips
Git gud

>>34011516
>>>34009546
>>Range cleanups of Lead vs Copper and steel
>Guess which costs less and doesn't incur EPA regs?


So....

The EPA is now dictating what BULLETS we use?

The Green Religion is getting a good, solid grip on us these days.

Random thought.

Isn't the First Amendment supposed to forbid the establishment of a government religion?

Isn't the EPA and it's thousands of tentacles the more-sinister US equivalent of the Church of England?

How is this fucking allowed?

>>34007706
That's not 7.62x51(reminder that French 7.5 has virtually the same ballistics) or trying to make M14 a sniper rifle.

>>34015926
>How is this fucking allowed?
Because pseudo-science and corruption

>>34015392
>The next step in firearm innovation is caseless ammo


This faggot gets it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSAT_light_machine_gun

Ignore the current stats.

Imagine this tech in 6.53mm using caseless telescoped rounds. Go with a bullpup because we're not stupid.

Because the rounds are telescoped, you can use simplex, duplex, and triplex rounds as required, not to mention a MOUT round loaded with shotgun pellets. (Look up the diameter of number 3 buckshot. Hmmmm....)

Also, the steel-tipped rounds are designed for multiple reasons. 1) armor piercing. High hardness steel tip. 2) Barrier defeat. High hardness steel tip. 3) Enhanced wounding. Because the Geneva conventions forbid softpoints and hollowpoints, we need to get fancy. Steel tip bullets have the CG toward the rear, meaning they naturally want to fly ass-first. (to put the CG forward against dynamic pressure). If you set the spin rate exactly right, you get the bullets stable in air under all conditions, but very unstable in denser media (like flesh). This causes the bullets to violently switch ends when they hit meat, causing WAY more severe wounds, without violating the Geneva convention rules.

Sneaky.

OP is kind of an idiot if he thinks thats a waste.

>>34015860
>standard soldier starts wearing Level IV plate everywhere on an exo
>intermediate cartridges and .308/6.5CM are now uselessly low power except against dunecoons or other unarmored irregulars
>the HCAR with M2AP becomes a viable SHTF weapon
>un-exo'd "light infantry" seriously reconsiders upgraded Garands (NATO) and 54r autoloaders (former Warpac)
>.30-06 or 54r "scout rifles" become popular with civilians since the AR-15 is no longer capable of resisting an exo platoon
>ARs get cheap as shit anyways thanks to all the M16s and M4s getting surplused
>saboted steel or tungsten super-penetrator 12 gauge slugs become commonly available for shotguns
That could be one hell of an interesting future.

>>34015926
>Fighting against an objectively better round because "hurr durr fuck greens"
Do you also drive a truck with that asshole black smoke generator you little shit?

If we can fight well and be environmentally responsible why the fuck shouldn't we?

>>34015932
>He says, drooling with a blank look in his stupid, unfocused eyes

>>34015926
The lead-free bullet requirement has already been struck down. Trump is feeding the commie parts of the EPA into a wood chipper feet first.

>>34008731
>Just use hard cast lead
lookup what that actually is you moron

>>34015997
Honestly I see Cased Telescoping far more likely in the near future than Caseless ammo.

Solid propellant blocks are much harder to keep stable and intact than thin plastic casings and the plastic casing helps form a disposable seal in the chamber like brass where caseless means leaving sealing completely up to the gun and that will likely mean more maintenance and wear items.

And before you say "THE G11 DID IT!", yes it did. But the modern takeaway from attempts to do it again with the LSAT program show that caseless is harder to manufacture and a good bit more expensive. The G11 also had the benefit of being manufactured many decades ago when the EPA and OSHA and whoever else let them use a lot more fun chemicals in the manufacturing process that made it easier for them to make and dry.

So while its a worthwhile goal to to aim for caseless eventually CT is still a massive improvement.

If you have not read it yet this interview series is well worth checking out:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/03/11/interview-kori-phillips-program-officer-lsat-ctsas-part-1-program-history-ammunition-technical-discussion/
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/03/18/interview-kori-phillips-program-officer-lsat-ctsas-part-2-ammunition-technical-discussion-contd/
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/03/25/interview-kori-phillips-program-officer-lsat-ctsas-part-3-development-6-5mm-ct/

>>34013618
Everyone, this is reddit spacing. Now you won't get confused in the future.

>>34016201
>>>34015997 (You)
>Honestly I see Cased Telescoping far more likely in the near future than Caseless ammo.

I could see this. An obturating seal is a wonderful thing, and a heatsink/insulator in the chamber helps raise fire rates and durability.

The important thing is the telescoped round using the props as a structural member. This allows stacked bullets, and that is where you get BIG increases in battlefield performance.

>>34016027
>everyone is using lvl 4 plates
>let's shoot them with a round that we know lvl 4 can stop

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>>34016250
>>>34016027
>>everyone is using lvl 4 plates
>>let's shoot them with a round that we know lvl 4 can stop

FINE.

See pic related.

.458 Win-mag works just fine in semi-auto. That'll cut through level 4 like it's cardboard.

>>34016147
> Implying the Army is going to back down from a superior round because the anti-environmental cronies have removed the requirement
Are you fucking reactionaries really this obsessively stupid that you attribute your religious beliefs against the science that you can't accept that maybe you're wrong?

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>>34016299
>.458 Garand
My fucking DICK

>>34016299
I think that's the only evidence of a .458 garand existing. It's probably shooped

>>34015549

I mean yeah, I agree with you, but that wasn't a sport kill. That was a rampaging bull that had just killed three people in a South African village. The full video shows it crushing the hood of a car with a family inside it.

>>34008731
The idea was to make an environmentally friendly round. They tried tungsten first but it sucked.

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>>34016299
>.458 win mag
>TACTICAL GARANDS, BOLT GUNS, AND LEVER GUNS AHOY
>mfw

>>34016333
It's real, but they're not made anymore after the company's gunsmith died.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/07/06/oood-mccann-industries-458-win-mag-garand/

>>34016140

>he says, while slowly inserting a black silicon dildo so far up his ass it tickles his lungs and causes him to let out a wheezy whimper.

>>34016417
Aww, mad that your stupidity was called out?

>>34013578
The Springfield was a mistake. We should have stayed with the Krag.

>>34016469
That side door loading and smooth action are pretty nice.

>>34011565

Sigfags, everybody...

>>34016507
Morons, everybody.

Do you have any counterargument?

>>34007716

>late capitalism

Nice Marxist meme comrade! It'll work this time!

>>34007706
>hating m855a1 because it's only better than m855 instead of perfect
>hating m855a1 because it's ballistically matched for optical/logistical/training continuity, unlike a heavier round such as m262

My days of not taking uzbekistani mining board posters seriously are certainly coming to a middle.

>>34016582
>Trump
kek thanks for this friend I memed hard and appreciate your vote. You better get to prepping

>>34016629
That non sequitur though.

>>34016147

Yeah, and threatening to fuck with superfund requirements and funding. The largest superfund site in America is going to be ignored again, until it floods the entire Columbia River drainage with acid mine contamination. But if it keeps leftist hippies angry, why shouldn't we be for it?

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>>34016299

>>34016402
>wants to be more environmentally friendly with weapons
>Still flies the B-52 for no reason

>>34011249
>Swiss

>>34016402
Militaries are inherently environmentally unfriendly

Especially air forces

>>34017676
SIGArms is an independent US division.

Also, the M9 is an Italian design.

>>34017698
No reason to be intentionally worse about it if you have the means to. Especially if the long term costs are lower by going green.

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>>34016399
I would rather the elephant live.

>>34016402
>tungsten
>environmentally friendly