What do you think of the claim that in WWII only 15 to 20 percent

File: image.jpg (2MB, 2448x3264px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 2448x3264px

>>34001219
I've heard a lot of conflicting stuff on Grossman.

A field artillery captain that said it was all bullshit.

A military police captain that said the book was golden.

A special forces colonel that said there were some things right about it and others very wrong (and didn't really go into further detail).

It's all in the wash.
Who knows?

>>34001219
I heard he asked if they shot to kill but not if they fired their rifles in the direction of the enemy.

>>34001219

I think you have that quote wrong. Only 15-20% shot to kill, not fired their weapons at all.

>>34001401
>>34001365

Nope

Direct quote from the back cover of the book:

>In World War II only 15 to 20 percent of combat infantrymen were willing to fire their weapon

Doesn't say "shoot to kill", says "fire their weapon"

The methodology on that study was wrong, it was essentially hearsay that ended up as fact.

>>34001219
It wasn't until Vietnam that warfare and the psychology of combat was studied seriously as a social science (at a rigorous,. peer-reviewed level at least). It wasnt until recently that small-unit tactics and AAR's were torn apart and analyzed at every conceivable level by think tanks, government agencies. and other institutions that employed professional researchers. Grossman worked off of uncontrolled surveys and hearsay.

>>34001219
Grossman basically bases his book of a now discredited study by S.L.A. Marshall. Marshall pretty much fabricated his study, so that means Grossman's is fit for the trash too.

File: A US Marine still clutches the knife with which he killed a Japanese soldier, in background, in a duel. A moment after finishing off his adversary, a sniper’s bullet killed him. Eniwetok Atoll, 1945.jpg (391KB, 1280x875px) Image search: [Google]

391KB, 1280x875px

>>34001480
>In World War II only 15 to 20 percent of combat infantrymen were willing to fire their weapon

Not sure about the European Front but I bet you 5 bucks that the Marines and Soldiers fighting the Japs were singing a different tune after a day or two of combat on those shitty islands

>>34001651

>now discredited

Hardly

It's debated, but far from fully discredited.

>>34001862
Should that knife have blood on it? It looks clean.

>>34001219
I think that what he meant to say is that only 20% shot to kill. I'm pretty sure that i heard that before in a doc i watched about warfare. Interestingly that same documentary also said that 90+% of soldiers shot to kill in Iraq.

>>34001953
>No documentation
>No record of methodology
>Multiple reports of complete fabrication of statistics by the very people he conducted studies with (http://ssi.armywarcollege.edu/pubs/parameters/articles/03autumn/chambers.pdf)
Anyone who gives any sort of validity to the Marshall studies are objectively retarded.

>>34002167
It's also worth noting he straight up lied about his WWI experiences. Why people continue to give any sort of weight to anything he had to say is nothing short of a testament to how easy it is to make blatant misinformation seem true if you just get enough people to repeat it.

>>34002167
>>34002222

exaggerations are hardly worth responding to, but here

https://web.archive.org/web/20131105130149/http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo9/18-grossman-eng.asp

>>34002231
>by Dave Grossman
Jesus you are dense.

>>34001219
The dude is a sensationalist who gets money by jumping on social science fads. He also says vidya makes people into hardened killers. He's Sarkesian without the SJW veneer.

>>34002231
>Guy whose entire book hinges on this one shitty study defends other guy who conducted said shitty study
no shit.

>>34002245

>Don't accept anyone who defends the Marshall studies
>Keep repeating the exaggerations and eventually we'll win out

Yes, why listen to a man who spent his career researching the S.L.A.M. research and similar studies?

> (As claimed in Dave Grossman's book, On Killing)
Didn't this hack say playing Medal of Honor turned you into a hardened killer?

>>34002271
>Keep repeating the exaggerations
I LITERALLY gave you an interview with a man who conducted the studies with Marshall who said he just pulled shit out of his ass. He objectively blew up is experience in WWI, because his own fucking grandson admitted to it after setting out to prove he actually didn't but had to face facts. There is objectively no paper trail regarding his research, because he hardly took any notes.

Your only refutation is that stupid author defending the very basis for his work. You're a fucking idiot.

>>34002271
>who spent his career researching the S.L.A.M. research
Did he do the same kind of research he did with >>34002290? Because that was pretty fuckin' lulzy my dude. Aren't there also like, only two notebooks from SLA? How can you effectively research that shit when one of the most glaring criticisms it has is that there's virtually no documentation?

>>34001219
>On Killing
If the USMC thinks it's good enough the Recommended reading list, it's good enough for me.

>>34002360
>marines
>reading

>>34002266

this. the video games as murder simulators claim instantly put his psychology credentials in doubt. plus he also threw his lot in with john farnam and the force science institute quacks.

>>34004779
well video games would help

But this modern world is super fucking sanitized compared to older times.
People back then bought live chickens to kill for dinner
Most of em lived on or near farms, where you see animals being killed regularly

Mortality rates were far higher at all ages, diseases were generally not curable, etc

>>34004716

Mattis says the most important thing a Marine leader can do is read

The book itself is of questionable accuracy, and that's putting it lightly.

That said, I imagine the real figure is probably quite close to that. There are very few opportunities to fire your weapon in combat, especially given the nature of the fighting in WW2. Combine this with cautious fire control orders and there you have it.

>>34005912
Youd kinda hope your leader would be able to read wouldnt you...

>>34001219
It relies on research which is a massive outlier versus other studies to the same effect.

>>34001219
Dave grossman is a fucking POG and wasn't there. Neither was I, but i have learned from history and can tell you what the feelings were like back then.
>the battle for Europe ensues, and America watches from afar
>everyone antsy and wants to kick some kraut hotdogs
>japan hits us "out of nowhere"
>everyone in america is heart broken
>but an anger slowley rises
>the nation, who was supplying its allies, goes full beserk
>drafts all abled bodied males from the militia
>cranks out quality made shit in less time it takes to shit on a toilet
>everyone wants to kill himself a nippon or a berlin sasuge
>american troops go ham
>upon landing in france, their rage has not subdued
>Germany cant even match up
Moral of the story? The culture of WWII America was "kill everyone until We're satisfied!" It wasnt untill the 60's that we as a culture switched from "kill everything" to "lets just fuck instead, man. Haha"

>>34006931

The historical inaccuracies of your post make my head spin

>>34007849
Great observation, my man. Really taught me somethin', dude.

>>34001219
Dave Grossman is full of shit and relied on a shitty "study" from SLA Marshall
Dave Grossman clearly has his own agenda and reads that into situations
Such as when he states the reason why casualties are much higher when an enemy is retreating is because the killers don't have to see their faces instead of the obvious and correct answer that the killers have no need to worry about the relatively defenseless retreating enemy returning fire and can open fire without fire without fear

File: be7.jpg (31KB, 600x436px) Image search: [Google]

31KB, 600x436px

>>34006931
I once watched 8 Thai ladyboys form a circle on a Phuket titty bar stage and fuck each other in the poop-hoop in perfect unison, and it still wasn't as gay as what you just wrote.

>>34007976
FREE LUV DOOD

>>34007976

God doesn't exist in Patong Beach.